With the focus on Soulbeast, did we forget about Holo? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

With the focus on Soulbeast, did we forget about Holo?

Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited May 18, 2019 in PVP

Holo still needs to be toned down.

What don't they have?

I don't know, but I do know what they have.

  • Great healing
  • great armor
  • great mobility
  • great damage
  • invuln
  • stealth
  • boon fart extraordinaire
  • multi foe sustainability
  • unblockable
  • blocks
  • superspeed (same trait drops movement impede like thief grandmasters, even tho its mid tier)
  • stability and stability access
  • mega might stacking
  • They are also CC machines.
  • oh and then they got photon forge

I mean, c'mon....

Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

<134567

Comments

  • Euthymias.7984Euthymias.7984 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 18, 2019

    -Great Healing
    Only thing that may need a slight shave, and you can do that by just lowering Heat Therapy to 5 stacks max only instead of a potential 10 stacks over time
    -Great Armor
    Not really. If you spec for it, you could get some good protection uptime I guess, but that's still able to be stripped/corrupted pretty easily.
    -Mobility
    You can probably increase the cooldown on PF 2 by like 3s, (and up the swiftness given by it to compensate) but aside from that and a utility belt elixir for a few seconds of Superspeed, all thats left is a 1200 unit jump on Rifle. That's not excessive or high mobility in the least. There's also Rocket Boots and trait but that's an investment in mobility over more quickness from KB
    -Great Damage
    Depends on what you're comparing it to. A lot of things are pretty high up there when it comes to just dealing damage right now.
    -Invuln
    Very limited, cannot act within it beyond revive/finishing targets or dodging to activate Vent Exhaust
    -Muh Boons
    Mostly through conversion if traited/invested into that sort of thing. Still vulnerable to corruption/stripping on its tail-end
    -Unblockable
    ....on an elite that has a windup before it fires and nothing else.
    -Block
    Without Shield or Tool Kit, just one on over a 30s CD......
    -Superspeed
    Only on Elixir U Toolbelt or Kinetic Battery trigger, unless they carry and trait Rocket Boots (trading the quickness uptime for more mobility)

    Holosmith is versatile but I wouldnt say its overwhelmingly strong. A mild shave in its sustain alone would probably be enough when it comes to its overall balance. Though something I'd really like them to consider is making ECSU and PBM a bit more attractive as GM traits. Right now, there's very little reason to take them over Vent Exhaust because its really effective at cutting out your excess Heat both in forge and out of it, allowing much better management of the mechanic. If Heat Therapy gets shaved like I stated above, maybe having heat degradation start up slightly faster might give the other two a bit more use.
    (Or maybe just making Coolant Blast consume some heat on use....that could be pretty neat.)

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    tone down one shots then worry about fine tuning.

    you don't know till you know, ya know.

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 18, 2019

    @iKeostuKen.2738 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    Holo still needs to be toned down.

    What don't they have?

    I don't know, but I do know what they have.

    • Great healing
    • great armor
    • great mobility
    • great damage
    • invuln
    • stealth
    • boon fart extraordinaire
    • multi foe sustainability
    • unblockable
    • blocks
    • superspeed (same trait drops movement impede like thief grandmasters, even tho its mid tier)
    • oh and then they got photon forge

    I mean, c'mon....

    I don't think anyone has forgotten.
    You will also run into the few notable engie mains who will do anything and everything possible to make sure nerf suggestions for engi remain buried or are swiftly discredited.
    Some of the issues with Holo stem from the Alchemy tree. A good place to start is there, for example.
    They could nerf Invigorating Speed. Make it a 10s CD with a 3s Vigor duration.

    How about they dont touch the core engineer tree. If they want to nerf holo then nerf holo. Otherwise, leave core traits alone.

    Some core engi traits should be changed -- but as part of a larger approach to balance. Anti-corrosion plating, for example, is beyond busted with how it interplays with condition damage. But I think condition damage systems need to be re-evaluated.

    Additionally, core engi lines of firearms and explosives need to have a place in PvP. I'd change those as well, because Inventions/Alch/Tools are the only core lines really seeing use in PvP. They're designed with outmoded means of play in mind, and Holo was simply a bandaid over the core class, which is in a pretty bad state.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    tone down one shots then worry about fine tuning.

    Nope..you tone down both at the same time and for starter...the problem is mainly holo..not a pewpew full glass

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @rng.1024 said:
    (...) Also avoid his elite, you can blind it or simply sidestep.
    (...)

    It follows you even when you port. You need to dodge, blind it or have stab.#

    Holo is not the biggest offender right now. It is great and there is a gap between it and several other less viable classes, but there are some being more annoying. Holo comes next.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @rng.1024 said:
    I have to agree with engi mains, at this point holosmith is more of a l2p issue. Trust me I know, been running scholar core ele with no toughness, and daggers to boot.

    All you really need to do is kite and LoS during forge, and make sure you dodge his stab skill. The rest of their damage isn't that great, however the range of the Holographic Shockwave could use som reduction to about 360, as currently it's a little to easy to get cc'ed by it even if you are not participating in the fight. Also avoid his elite, you can blind it or simply sidestep.

    Out of all the matchups that are currently meta I would say holosmith is the easiest if you play a power variant, so nerfing them any further would just push them straight out in favor of warriors.

    The real l2p issue is for an ele to lose to a ranger..the pewpew all like to cry about is only good as +1 (unless you find rangers of ROM level) , while the soulbeast does close to half the dmg of a warrior strength or rev sword burst,all the while the "non engi" mains forget about the quickness uptime and 25 might with which even forge skill 1 starts to deal huge dmg, not counting then all the sustain a holosmith has

    Despite all the l2p claims at the high end of pvp( AT monthly EU/NA) you find holosmiths/scrappers and certainly not soulbeast of any variant, it tells everything the real l2p issue

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    I have to agree with engi mains, at this point holosmith is more of a l2p issue. Trust me I know, been running scholar core ele with no toughness, and daggers to boot.

    All you really need to do is kite and LoS during forge, and make sure you dodge his stab skill. The rest of their damage isn't that great, however the range of the Holographic Shockwave could use som reduction to about 360, as currently it's a little to easy to get cc'ed by it even if you are not participating in the fight. Also avoid his elite, you can blind it or simply sidestep.

    Out of all the matchups that are currently meta I would say holosmith is the easiest if you play a power variant, so nerfing them any further would just push them straight out in favor of warriors.

    The real l2p issue is for an ele to lose to a ranger..the pewpew all like to cry about is only good as +1 (unless you find rangers of ROM level) , while the soulbeast does close to half the dmg of a warrior strength or rev sword burst,all the while the "non engi" mains forget about the quickness uptime and 25 might with which even forge skill 1 starts to deal huge dmg, not counting then all the sustain a holosmith has

    Despite all the l2p claims at the high end of pvp( AT monthly EU/NA) you find holosmiths/scrappers and certainly not soulbeast of any variant, it tells everything the real l2p issue

    There are several in Plat3. The issue with - especially Sic' em! - is that it gets basically hardcountered by revs. And those are quite popular indeed.

  • iKeostuKen.2738iKeostuKen.2738 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @iKeostuKen.2738 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    Holo still needs to be toned down.

    What don't they have?

    I don't know, but I do know what they have.

    • Great healing
    • great armor
    • great mobility
    • great damage
    • invuln
    • stealth
    • boon fart extraordinaire
    • multi foe sustainability
    • unblockable
    • blocks
    • superspeed (same trait drops movement impede like thief grandmasters, even tho its mid tier)
    • oh and then they got photon forge

    I mean, c'mon....

    I don't think anyone has forgotten.
    You will also run into the few notable engie mains who will do anything and everything possible to make sure nerf suggestions for engi remain buried or are swiftly discredited.
    Some of the issues with Holo stem from the Alchemy tree. A good place to start is there, for example.
    They could nerf Invigorating Speed. Make it a 10s CD with a 3s Vigor duration.

    How about they dont touch the core engineer tree. If they want to nerf holo then nerf holo. Otherwise, leave core traits alone.

    Some core engi traits should be changed -- but as part of a larger approach to balance. Anti-corrosion plating, for example, is beyond busted with how it interplays with condition damage. But I think condition damage systems need to be re-evaluated.

    Additionally, core engi lines of firearms and explosives need to have a place in PvP. I'd change those as well, because Inventions/Alch/Tools are the only core lines really seeing use in PvP. They're designed with outmoded means of play in mind, and Holo was simply a bandaid over the core class, which is in a pretty bad state.

    To me Anti Corrosion is an absolute must because the current state of the game where 1 skill equals 4 conditions being push out. Fix ingame condition application and then fix how anti corrosion works afterwards or else core engies will suffer from it.

    Agree with the rest, would especially love buffs to a lot of the core skills that havent seen love in years.

  • iKeostuKen.2738iKeostuKen.2738 Member ✭✭✭

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @iKeostuKen.2738 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    Holo still needs to be toned down.

    What don't they have?

    I don't know, but I do know what they have.

    • Great healing
    • great armor
    • great mobility
    • great damage
    • invuln
    • stealth
    • boon fart extraordinaire
    • multi foe sustainability
    • unblockable
    • blocks
    • superspeed (same trait drops movement impede like thief grandmasters, even tho its mid tier)
    • oh and then they got photon forge

    I mean, c'mon....

    I don't think anyone has forgotten.
    You will also run into the few notable engie mains who will do anything and everything possible to make sure nerf suggestions for engi remain buried or are swiftly discredited.
    Some of the issues with Holo stem from the Alchemy tree. A good place to start is there, for example.
    They could nerf Invigorating Speed. Make it a 10s CD with a 3s Vigor duration.

    How about they dont touch the core engineer tree. If they want to nerf holo then nerf holo. Otherwise, leave core traits alone.

    Since you agree on that ... is Mesmer getting 100% nerf revert on all core traits/weapons?

    No, idk? Mesmer was never really in a bad spot to begin with. Idk about mesmer recent changes or anything since I havent really touched mines since before HoT.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 18, 2019

    moved to original post

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

  • iKeostuKen.2738iKeostuKen.2738 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 18, 2019

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @iKeostuKen.2738 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @iKeostuKen.2738 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    Holo still needs to be toned down.

    What don't they have?

    I don't know, but I do know what they have.

    • Great healing
    • great armor
    • great mobility
    • great damage
    • invuln
    • stealth
    • boon fart extraordinaire
    • multi foe sustainability
    • unblockable
    • blocks
    • superspeed (same trait drops movement impede like thief grandmasters, even tho its mid tier)
    • oh and then they got photon forge

    I mean, c'mon....

    I don't think anyone has forgotten.
    You will also run into the few notable engie mains who will do anything and everything possible to make sure nerf suggestions for engi remain buried or are swiftly discredited.
    Some of the issues with Holo stem from the Alchemy tree. A good place to start is there, for example.
    They could nerf Invigorating Speed. Make it a 10s CD with a 3s Vigor duration.

    How about they dont touch the core engineer tree. If they want to nerf holo then nerf holo. Otherwise, leave core traits alone.

    Since you agree on that ... is Mesmer getting 100% nerf revert on all core traits/weapons?

    No, idk? Mesmer was never really in a bad spot to begin with. Idk about mesmer recent changes or anything since I havent really touched mines since before HoT.

    So, from your perspective: dont touch my main core but nerf other classes to its core, I dont care. Cant be even more biased at this point . You just demonstrated how 99% of "community" want thing to go. I just wish now engineer will get the same treatment as mesmer, gutted core instead of elite specs with over 50% nerfs at everything, then I will tell to engi mains they never been in a bad spot to begin with.

    Its not biased opinion when I never brought attention to mesmer. Not every class is balanced the same way. So why should my thoughts on core engineer(Which is already weak) be reflected on mesmer? Especially in a engineer focused topic.

    Not even sure where I said to nerf any other class in the post you quoted. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    • stability and stability access

    Against mesmer/ranger easy close to 100% stability uptime. Each 6 seconds you have to avoid corona burst that slap you for 3-4k, twice, does dodge comes back that quick ? Probably not

    • mega might stacking

    Mega boon stacking all by passives and new busted conversion brough by holosmith each time you leave forge that also gives them more boons. 5 seconds CD on forge makes it hilarious. Want to start taking down boons ? Make it cleanse only, no conversions.
    Look at kitten elixir first minor,thats better than their active utility skill and has less 10s cd than original, with elixir trait its gives on 24s cd : 7 mights,swiftness,fury,retal. Yes ! You really took that damage, here is free utility skill with even lower cd!
    I can compare this to https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Metaphysical_Rejuvenation 10s regen for 1300 hp? Really ? How is this is not SMITERSBOONED YET? Both first minor traits not even freaking worth of one engi minor,not even close to be.
    Busy rn,might add later

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 18, 2019

    @iKeostuKen.2738 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @iKeostuKen.2738 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @iKeostuKen.2738 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    Holo still needs to be toned down.

    What don't they have?

    I don't know, but I do know what they have.

    • Great healing
    • great armor
    • great mobility
    • great damage
    • invuln
    • stealth
    • boon fart extraordinaire
    • multi foe sustainability
    • unblockable
    • blocks
    • superspeed (same trait drops movement impede like thief grandmasters, even tho its mid tier)
    • oh and then they got photon forge

    I mean, c'mon....

    I don't think anyone has forgotten.
    You will also run into the few notable engie mains who will do anything and everything possible to make sure nerf suggestions for engi remain buried or are swiftly discredited.
    Some of the issues with Holo stem from the Alchemy tree. A good place to start is there, for example.
    They could nerf Invigorating Speed. Make it a 10s CD with a 3s Vigor duration.

    How about they dont touch the core engineer tree. If they want to nerf holo then nerf holo. Otherwise, leave core traits alone.

    Since you agree on that ... is Mesmer getting 100% nerf revert on all core traits/weapons?

    No, idk? Mesmer was never really in a bad spot to begin with. Idk about mesmer recent changes or anything since I havent really touched mines since before HoT.

    So, from your perspective: dont touch my main core but nerf other classes to its core, I dont care. Cant be even more biased at this point . You just demonstrated how 99% of "community" want thing to go. I just wish now engineer will get the same treatment as mesmer, gutted core instead of elite specs with over 50% nerfs at everything, then I will tell to engi mains they never been in a bad spot to begin with.

    Its not biased opinion when I never brought attention to mesmer. Not every class is balanced the same way. So why should my thoughts on core engineer(Which is already weak) be reflected on mesmer? Especially in a engineer focused topic.

    Not even sure where I said to nerf any other class in the post you quoted. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

    I dont care, what exactly you wanted, a lot of other people demanded that. Not seeing a single reason to treat engineer in a special way other than any other class, suddenly its normal to gut core class traits/weapons for other classes but your must be untouched.

    But I want to see consistency in the way things are balanced.
    If one class is nerfed ( in this case a a few) through core and elite specs to deal with a problem. I see no reason why another class is automatically exempt from the same treatment.

    Core mesmer never been shining since HoT but that never stopped to nerf core instead of elite spec, so your "core engi is already weak" is completely irrelevant. Core engi is that weak that we see 3 holo builds in "great" metabattle category and scrapper as meta one.

  • toxic.3648toxic.3648 Member ✭✭✭

    reduce some healing from heat therapy, someone said make it 5 stacks only which is an excellent idea.
    cut durations from some of the boons (perma vigor biggest offender)
    increase holo 2 to 4 maybe 5 sec cd
    remove 100% crit from holo 5 and make it range 450

    this way u wont touch core engi (maybe except for the vigor part)

    Toxicity Pengu to the rescue /o/

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @foste.3098 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    All you really need to do is kite and LoS during forge, and make sure you dodge his stab skill.

    This would be fine if forge skills had longer cooldowns, as it stands i dubbed holo forge the facerole forge.
    The issue i find with holo is that it is suppose to be a glassy spec akin to berzerker but it has so much active defense available in the holo line which is then bolstered by the passive defense from core lines that it becomes bruiser-ish.

    But i would rather they address soul beast first before holo, just a preference.

    Glassy? I wouldn't call them that, with demolisher amulet, full on sustainy traitlines and leadership runes - so yeah bruiser is alot more accurate.

    The forge cooldowns are fine, sure it can be spammed but at the cost of building heat. Weakness is great if they vent while dodging, and you can indeed force dodges leaving them wide open for a burst mid forge if you so want. I mean all you need to do essentially is go behind a crate/pillar/rock and simply wait and there is nothing he can do. Leave the node even if you are that squishy.

    Once we start balancing around who can outsustain who standing still on top of eachother, then we need to remove profession diversity completely in order to get anywhere.

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 18, 2019

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    (...) Also avoid his elite, you can blind it or simply sidestep.
    (...)

    It follows you even when you port. You need to dodge, blind it or have stab.#

    Holo is not the biggest offender right now. It is great and there is a gap between it and several other less viable classes, but there are some being more annoying. Holo comes next.

    Yeah it follows if he releases awsd - which already alot of people don't know. Then it activates, leaving you a very slight delay which takes a split second to reach you where you can simply walk out of the incoming field.

    You can try it yourself, by having a friend fire it towards you and the walk away at the end of his cast. It's nothing new, alot of skills function like this and they've always countered ports.

    If you want to check it out Boyce does exactly this on several streams, also check out Jazz X Man's guide on youtube against holosmith to see different ways it can be countered.

    What exactly is it that makes holo such a big offender in your opinion?

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 18, 2019

    @rng.1024 said:
    Yeah it follows if he releases awsd - which already alot of people don't know. Then it activates, leaving you a very slight delay which takes a split second to reach you where you can simply walk out of the incoming field.

    You can try it yourself, by having a friend fire it towards you and the walk away at the end of his cast. It's nothing new, alot of skills function like this and they've always countered ports.

    If you want to check it out Boyce does exactly this on several streams, also check out Jazz Man's guide on youtube against holosmith to see different ways it can be countered.

    What is this nonsense dude? Can you provide a link or people supposed to look for god know what and god know where?
    From explanation I understood exactly NOTHING, how the hell you sidestep huge laser, especially when 90% of times its comes from stealth

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    Yeah it follows if he releases awsd - which already alot of people don't know. Then it activates, leaving you a very slight delay which takes a split second to reach you where you can simply walk out of the incoming field.

    You can try it yourself, by having a friend fire it towards you and the walk away at the end of his cast. It's nothing new, alot of skills function like this and they've always countered ports.

    If you want to check it out Boyce does exactly this on several streams, also check out Jazz Man's guide on youtube against holosmith to see different ways it can be countered.

    What is this nonsense dude? Can you provide a link or people supposed to look for god know what and god know where?
    From explanation I understood exactly NOTHING, how the hell you sidestep huge laser, especially when 90% of times its comes from stealth

    Legends says that maining an engi will open your mind eye with which you'll develop your 6th and 7th sense ...there you can see the counterplat an engi main see

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    (...) Also avoid his elite, you can blind it or simply sidestep.
    (...)

    It follows you even when you port. You need to dodge, blind it or have stab.#

    Holo is not the biggest offender right now. It is great and there is a gap between it and several other less viable classes, but there are some being more annoying. Holo comes next.

    Yeah it follows if he releases awsd - which already alot of people don't know. Then it activates, leaving you a very slight delay which takes a split second to reach you where you can simply walk out of the incoming field.

    You can try it yourself, by having a friend fire it towards you and the walk away at the end of his cast. It's nothing new, alot of skills function like this and they've always countered ports.

    If you want to check it out Boyce does exactly this on several streams, also check out Jazz Man's guide on youtube against holosmith to see different ways it can be countered.

    What exactly is it that makes holo such a big offender in your opinion?

    The sustain with such an offensive amulet, the damage for such sustainy traitlines. But I said it is** not** the biggest offender right now. :smile:

    Thought you meant the projectile. But this skill is fine, I think. It simply sucks compared to Rampage for example.

  • iKeostuKen.2738iKeostuKen.2738 Member ✭✭✭

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @iKeostuKen.2738 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @iKeostuKen.2738 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @iKeostuKen.2738 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    Holo still needs to be toned down.

    What don't they have?

    I don't know, but I do know what they have.

    • Great healing
    • great armor
    • great mobility
    • great damage
    • invuln
    • stealth
    • boon fart extraordinaire
    • multi foe sustainability
    • unblockable
    • blocks
    • superspeed (same trait drops movement impede like thief grandmasters, even tho its mid tier)
    • oh and then they got photon forge

    I mean, c'mon....

    I don't think anyone has forgotten.
    You will also run into the few notable engie mains who will do anything and everything possible to make sure nerf suggestions for engi remain buried or are swiftly discredited.
    Some of the issues with Holo stem from the Alchemy tree. A good place to start is there, for example.
    They could nerf Invigorating Speed. Make it a 10s CD with a 3s Vigor duration.

    How about they dont touch the core engineer tree. If they want to nerf holo then nerf holo. Otherwise, leave core traits alone.

    Since you agree on that ... is Mesmer getting 100% nerf revert on all core traits/weapons?

    No, idk? Mesmer was never really in a bad spot to begin with. Idk about mesmer recent changes or anything since I havent really touched mines since before HoT.

    So, from your perspective: dont touch my main core but nerf other classes to its core, I dont care. Cant be even more biased at this point . You just demonstrated how 99% of "community" want thing to go. I just wish now engineer will get the same treatment as mesmer, gutted core instead of elite specs with over 50% nerfs at everything, then I will tell to engi mains they never been in a bad spot to begin with.

    Its not biased opinion when I never brought attention to mesmer. Not every class is balanced the same way. So why should my thoughts on core engineer(Which is already weak) be reflected on mesmer? Especially in a engineer focused topic.

    Not even sure where I said to nerf any other class in the post you quoted. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

    I dont care, what exactly you wanted, a lot of other people demanded that. Not seeing a single reason to treat engineer in a special way other than any other class, suddenly its normal to gut core class traits/weapons for other classes but your must be untouched.
    Core mesmer never been shining since HoT but that never stopped to nerf core instead of elite spec, so your "core engi is already weak" is completely irrelevant. Core engi is that weak that we see 3 holo builds in "great" metabattle category and scrapper as meta one.

    Pretty much a selfish mindset right there. Aside from putting words in someone else's mouth you are pushing your feelings to hard which is causing you to think and respond irrationally.

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 18, 2019

    @Vagrant.7206 said:
    The reason core mesmer hasn't "shone" since HoT is because both Chrono and Mirage are straight upgrades to core mesmer. There is no tradeoff beyond opportunity cost, and the benefits are mesmer massive. You could definitely make the same complaint about holo -- the tradeoffs are relatively minor, and the benefits are massive. Except that core engineer was not meta even in HoT, and scrapper wasn't much of an upgrade over core engi. With the powercreep that PoF brought, scrapper was rendered irrelevant for a long time, and core engi even further behind.


    scrapper wasn't much of an upgrade over core engi

    Are you memeing right now or srs?


    Many elite specs have no trade offs, neither holo/scrapper does as well.
    You know why core mesmer hasn't "shone" since HoT? Because you had NO chances at ANY build to compete with all busted specs being all around. Just like core engi.

    Where is that "danger" of being blown up when that heat reduction trait,thanks to perma vigor/adrenal implant, cover it pretty well ? Overheating happening only when engi playing really bad. (If you really mean overheat is a drawback/risk/whatever)
    Chrono wasnt played until phantasm rework happened, without a second thought about chronophantasma, and still causing issues till this day.
    (but thats not the point even, berserk was literally dead as well)
    Where have you seen core mesmers ? Except, unranked f2p mesmers that use time warp and illusions of life on the respawn, cant recall any

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    Yeah it follows if he releases awsd - which already alot of people don't know. Then it activates, leaving you a very slight delay which takes a split second to reach you where you can simply walk out of the incoming field.

    You can try it yourself, by having a friend fire it towards you and the walk away at the end of his cast. It's nothing new, alot of skills function like this and they've always countered ports.

    If you want to check it out Boyce does exactly this on several streams, also check out Jazz Man's guide on youtube against holosmith to see different ways it can be countered.

    What is this nonsense dude? Can you provide a link or people supposed to look for god know what and god know where?
    From explanation I understood exactly NOTHING, how the hell you sidestep huge laser, especially when 90% of times its comes from stealth

    Channeled skills will track targets in stealth or ports, especially if it's a channeled, rooted skill like Prime Light Beam.

    I know that. Why you tell me that?

    @rng.1024 said:
    (...) Also avoid his elite, you can blind it or simply sidestep.

    Does he imply you can sidestep laser elite OR what the hell i'm looking at ?

  • iKeostuKen.2738iKeostuKen.2738 Member ✭✭✭

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:
    scrapper wasn't much of an upgrade over core engi

    Are you memeing right now or srs?
    Where is that "danger" of being blown up when that heat reduction trait,thanks to perma vigor/adrenal implant, cover it pretty well ? Overheating happening only when engi playing really bad. (If you really mean overheat is a drawback/risk/whatever)

    You do know that that is holosmith right?

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 18, 2019

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    Yeah it follows if he releases awsd - which already alot of people don't know. Then it activates, leaving you a very slight delay which takes a split second to reach you where you can simply walk out of the incoming field.

    You can try it yourself, by having a friend fire it towards you and the walk away at the end of his cast. It's nothing new, alot of skills function like this and they've always countered ports.

    If you want to check it out Boyce does exactly this on several streams, also check out Jazz Man's guide on youtube against holosmith to see different ways it can be countered.

    What is this nonsense dude? Can you provide a link or people supposed to look for god know what and god know where?
    From explanation I understood exactly NOTHING, how the hell you sidestep huge laser, especially when 90% of times its comes from stealth



    Check out "Woodenpoatoes 2" channel for more in depth showcases of channeled skills (mostly in the fresh air weaver vids) and how they work.

    It's a feature of all channeled skills that can fire behind you without selfinterrupting, as long as you do not move (using wasd) they will turn your character to face your target until end of the channel (which is about 0,5 seconds before prime light fires).

    Also if an engi stealths, always break Line Of Sight. If the argument is you didn't see it coming, then thief is a worse offender.

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 18, 2019

    @rng.1024 said:

    What you just said I seen some french engi did to me in duels. He turned his back to me and hide laser animation with his body and then because of skill retargeting he hit me with it, I know that... but this

    Also avoid his elite, you can blind it or simply sidestep.

    What is this? As I know you can sidestep certain projectiles by moving right/left and it will not hit you but channeling laser ... ?I dont get it

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    (...) Also avoid his elite, you can blind it or simply sidestep.
    (...)

    It follows you even when you port. You need to dodge, blind it or have stab.#

    Holo is not the biggest offender right now. It is great and there is a gap between it and several other less viable classes, but there are some being more annoying. Holo comes next.

    Yeah it follows if he releases awsd - which already alot of people don't know. Then it activates, leaving you a very slight delay which takes a split second to reach you where you can simply walk out of the incoming field.

    You can try it yourself, by having a friend fire it towards you and the walk away at the end of his cast. It's nothing new, alot of skills function like this and they've always countered ports.

    If you want to check it out Boyce does exactly this on several streams, also check out Jazz Man's guide on youtube against holosmith to see different ways it can be countered.

    What exactly is it that makes holo such a big offender in your opinion?

    The sustain with such an offensive amulet, the damage for such sustainy traitlines. But I said it is** not** the biggest offender right now. :smile:

    Thought you meant the projectile. But this skill is fine, I think. It simply sucks compared to Rampage for example.

    Sure the sustain is decent in a 1v1, but the damage doesn't really rack that much up until they get good might going which already takes alot more than f.ex a warrior needs to do. On top of that they have barely 16000 hp, leaving them extremely vulnerable to a +1 and they need to avoid conditon bombs like everyone else. Way I see it is people get caught in an immob/cc chain and believe holo is op - however the same goes f.ex Rampage where if you dodge the boulder you will in 9/10 cases be fine.

    The problem arises when people try to facetank holo and believe they should win, but the entire point of holo forge is for it to be a window of high pressure just like we saw with reaper, take away either core traitline and the sustain/damage ratio of holo becomes terrible. If you avoid key skills (Forge 3, Forge 5, elite) then it's east to see that holo doesn't really have that many tricks up it's sleeve. It's a high risk high reward type of play which I am in favour of, even in it's current tanky state. Again compare it to Defense Spellbreaker.

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 18, 2019

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    What you just said I seen some french engi did to me in duels. He turned his back to me and hide laser animation with his body and then because of skill retargeting he hit me with it, I know that... but this

    Also avoid his elite, you can blind it or simply sidestep.

    What is this? As I know you can sidestep certain projectiles by moving right/left and it will not hit you but channeling laser ... ?I dont get it

    Ok let's get a few things out of the way:

    • First of all it's not a channeled skill (like mesmer's scepter 3), it's a channeled cast. What this means is the field, damage and all other effects are delivered at the end of the cast (else it would be a slow moving expanding field like tempest warhorn fire 5)
    • If he is tracking you (not moving while channeling his elite) you can stand still until it fires. Once it fires it will no longer automatically track you and is locked in the direction the engineer is facing.
    • The laser functions as a projectile, although with it being unblockable and all it doesn't really matter. But as with all projectiles, it has a travel time. The further away from the engi you are when it fires, the longer it takes to hit you. In this timeframe, you can move out of it's rectangular AoE given you are far enough away before it even hits.

    The point is the laser fires after the cast time, not during. This means where it goes is set in stone once the cast ends, and if you are far enough away you have time to move out of it before the first strike of the skill.

    The easiest way to extrapolate is if you've ever experienced a rev on axe offhand using the pull - there is a delay between the visual effect and the physical pull allowing you a reaction time of about 1 second - it's the same with the laser, albeit you have more like 0,5 seconds.

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 18, 2019

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    (...) Also avoid his elite, you can blind it or simply sidestep.
    (...)

    It follows you even when you port. You need to dodge, blind it or have stab.#

    Holo is not the biggest offender right now. It is great and there is a gap between it and several other less viable classes, but there are some being more annoying. Holo comes next.

    Yeah it follows if he releases awsd - which already alot of people don't know. Then it activates, leaving you a very slight delay which takes a split second to reach you where you can simply walk out of the incoming field.

    You can try it yourself, by having a friend fire it towards you and the walk away at the end of his cast. It's nothing new, alot of skills function like this and they've always countered ports.

    If you want to check it out Boyce does exactly this on several streams, also check out Jazz Man's guide on youtube against holosmith to see different ways it can be countered.

    What exactly is it that makes holo such a big offender in your opinion?

    The sustain with such an offensive amulet, the damage for such sustainy traitlines. But I said it is** not** the biggest offender right now. :smile:

    Thought you meant the projectile. But this skill is fine, I think. It simply sucks compared to Rampage for example.

    Sure the sustain is decent in a 1v1, but the damage doesn't really rack that much up until they get good might going which already takes alot more than f.ex a warrior needs to do. On top of that they have barely 16000 hp, leaving them extremely vulnerable to a +1 and they need to avoid conditon bombs like everyone else. Way I see it is people get caught in an immob/cc chain and believe holo is op - however the same goes f.ex Rampage where if you dodge the boulder you will in 9/10 cases be fine.

    You automatically/passively generate might on its own and tops 25 while fighting and dont even focus on it. Thanks passives,especially improved utility slot as minor passive trait and conversion on holo.
    Condition bombs? From who? I mean...condi mirages are rare guests on EU, you will most likely see revenants/wars/scrappers in q.
    So 14s cd stun on rifle without any meaningful animation (1200 range bug became a feature lol), holo5 with its huge aoe that goes to all heights 15s cd, unblockable laser on 60s cd. Each is 3 seconds ? May be some 2 seconds? Can anyone tell exact time?: D

    The problem arises when people try to facetank holo and believe they should win, but the entire point of holo forge is for it to be a window of high pressure just like we saw with reaper, take away either core traitline and the sustain/damage ratio of holo becomes terrible.

    Reaper deaths charge is 8s cd? Once he used it he cant stick to you anymore? Holo? No problem,holo leap, holo leap, holo leap ! Corona burst 6 seconds ,must dodge twice or you take significant amount of damage with 8 vuln stacks and give him stability, so you tell me I have to evade twice each 6 seconds and how do I evade the rest?
    Unlike reaper that has no access to utilities/elite/whatever engi can use all of them and has ranged skill in forge,reaper doesnt. Reaper chill-CC is casting have massive wind-up even with quickness, holo even bugs it out and wave animation doesnt match actual stun(or it was fixed?) thats confusing, hit multiple times as if you rolled away too early you will get caught by the wave coming out from the holo.
    Suddenly amount of "must dodge" skills increased .

    If you avoid key skills (Forge 3, Forge 5, elite) then it's east to see that holo doesn't really have that many tricks up it's sleeve. It's a high risk high reward type of play which I am in favour of, even in it's current tanky state. Again compare it to Defense Spellbreaker.

    High risk... And we laugh...laugh....laugh....
    Defense spellbreaker , are they a problem ?

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @rng.1024 said:
    The laser functions as a projectile, although with it being unblockable and all it doesn't really matter. But as with all projectiles, it has a travel time. The further away from the engi you are when it fires, the longer it takes to hit you. In this timeframe, you can move out of it's rectangular AoE given you are far enough away before it even hits.

    If that would be a thing just running away would be enough to to avoid it or give me exact time stamp on the video ... Would be appreciated, yes, Id rather to not risk getting screwed by that and evade if I actually can see the engineer.
    More over as I said, they just use "mass invis elixir" for resustain and throw off elite at you so you cant even see that

  • Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 18, 2019

    At the rate these kind of posts are emerging I'd say every class needs a tone down. Except for Revs, revs seem pretty balanced.

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 18, 2019

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:
    The reason core mesmer hasn't "shone" since HoT is because both Chrono and Mirage are straight upgrades to core mesmer. There is no tradeoff beyond opportunity cost, and the benefits are mesmer massive. You could definitely make the same complaint about holo -- the tradeoffs are relatively minor, and the benefits are massive. Except that core engineer was not meta even in HoT, and scrapper wasn't much of an upgrade over core engi. With the powercreep that PoF brought, scrapper was rendered irrelevant for a long time, and core engi even further behind.

    scrapper wasn't much of an upgrade over core engi

    Are you memeing right now or srs?

    Many elite specs have no trade offs, neither holo/scrapper does as well.
    You know why core mesmer hasn't "shone" since HoT? Because you had NO chances at ANY build to compete with all busted specs being all around. Just like core engi.

    Where is that "danger" of being blown up when that heat reduction trait,thanks to perma vigor/adrenal implant, cover it pretty well ? Overheating happening only when engi playing really bad. (If you really mean overheat is a drawback/risk/whatever)
    Chrono wasnt played until phantasm rework happened, without a second thought about chronophantasma, and still causing issues till this day.
    (but thats not the point even, berserk was literally dead as well)
    Where have you seen core mesmers ? Except, unranked f2p mesmers that use time warp and illusions of life on the respawn, cant recall any

    Scrapper does not have any tradeoffs, this is true. However, the only thing it gains by choosing the scrapper line is the ability to wield hammer and function gyro. These are not massive benefits (seriously, function gyro is super buggy, easy to destroy, and difficult to use). So the lack of a tradeoff for scrapper isn't as big a deal as it is say... for mirage, which gains a new weapon, ambush skills for all weapons, and the ability to attack and dodge with any skill at the same time.

    Holo does have concrete tradeoffs -- although the benefits are more substantial than the drawbacks. Holo can blow themselves up, have a 5-sec cooldown on kits when entering PF, and lose access to their elite toolbelt skill (f5). There are some other minor issues associated with transforms too. In exchange they get a very powerful... weapon? That said, nobody is arguing that what holo has to give up is in any way comparable to what it gains, but it does have a tradeoff where mirage and chrono do not.

    Thus, there's no reason ever to pick core mesmer over mirage and chrono -- because they are straight upgrades to the base class. At least with holo, you do lose some of your ability to interact with your core class (kits, f5 skill), and scrapper barely gets anything extra out of the deal. Core engineer still has uses in PvE with condi builds, but it simply cannot compete at a high level in PvP. You never find a use for core mesmer that chrono or mirage cannot do better, in any game mode.

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    Yeah it follows if he releases awsd - which already alot of people don't know. Then it activates, leaving you a very slight delay which takes a split second to reach you where you can simply walk out of the incoming field.

    You can try it yourself, by having a friend fire it towards you and the walk away at the end of his cast. It's nothing new, alot of skills function like this and they've always countered ports.

    If you want to check it out Boyce does exactly this on several streams, also check out Jazz Man's guide on youtube against holosmith to see different ways it can be countered.

    What is this nonsense dude? Can you provide a link or people supposed to look for god know what and god know where?
    From explanation I understood exactly NOTHING, how the hell you sidestep huge laser, especially when 90% of times its comes from stealth

    Channeled skills will track targets in stealth or ports, especially if it's a channeled, rooted skill like Prime Light Beam.

    I know that. Why you tell me that?

    @rng.1024 said:
    (...) Also avoid his elite, you can blind it or simply sidestep.

    Does he imply you can sidestep laser elite OR what the hell i'm looking at ?

    I can't speak for him, so I don't know.

    @Aridon.8362 said:
    At the rate these kind of posts are emerging I'd say every class needs a tone down. Except for Revs, revs seem pretty balanced.

    Eh, Herald could use some tweaking. :wink:

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 18, 2019

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:
    The reason core mesmer hasn't "shone" since HoT is because both Chrono and Mirage are straight upgrades to core mesmer. There is no tradeoff beyond opportunity cost, and the benefits are mesmer massive. You could definitely make the same complaint about holo -- the tradeoffs are relatively minor, and the benefits are massive. Except that core engineer was not meta even in HoT, and scrapper wasn't much of an upgrade over core engi. With the powercreep that PoF brought, scrapper was rendered irrelevant for a long time, and core engi even further behind.

    scrapper wasn't much of an upgrade over core engi

    Are you memeing right now or srs?

    Many elite specs have no trade offs, neither holo/scrapper does as well.
    You know why core mesmer hasn't "shone" since HoT? Because you had NO chances at ANY build to compete with all busted specs being all around. Just like core engi.

    Where is that "danger" of being blown up when that heat reduction trait,thanks to perma vigor/adrenal implant, cover it pretty well ? Overheating happening only when engi playing really bad. (If you really mean overheat is a drawback/risk/whatever)
    Chrono wasnt played until phantasm rework happened, without a second thought about chronophantasma, and still causing issues till this day.
    (but thats not the point even, berserk was literally dead as well)
    Where have you seen core mesmers ? Except, unranked f2p mesmers that use time warp and illusions of life on the respawn, cant recall any

    Scrapper does not have any tradeoffs, this is true. However, the only thing it gains by choosing the scrapper line is the ability to wield hammer and function gyro. These are not massive benefits (seriously, function gyro is super buggy, easy to destroy, and difficult to use).

    Not massive benefits? How come it became so much popularity and became literally A+ class for AT/monthly/swarming ranked ? I have no idea but I heard NA stacked them hard? On EU last monthly every team ran 1 scrapper? From Jaw vid I seen nothing but scrappers everywhere(cmirage main on scrapper won lol), may be because traits/utilities/weapon heavily benefits the engineer? No ?

    So the lack of a tradeoff for scrapper isn't as big a deal as it is say... for mirage, which gains a new weapon, ambush skills for all weapons, and the ability to attack and dodge with any skill at the same time.

    If you want my opinion about mirage elite spec , you will get it :

    dodge in stun is dumb and justify any amount of nerfs its get(portal anyone?)
    You are unable to cover your own ambush (A drawback I guess ?) that hit less than warrior dodge(which is unblockable rofl) and cost your precious endurance, mirage cant get as much as engineer,thief,ele and if you arent taking chaos BD you hitting guardian/necro level of vigor. (tldr,they are not free) Without vigor its not that far away from the core in my opinon.
    New weapon - gutted, hit like a wet noodle, will not play that again.
    New brand utilities - trash, not even one worth running in PvP.
    Detarget is nothing new as stealth did the same, could be just entirely removed as it irritates people and make them hate mesmer class more.
    Elite - 2 short range nonbreakstun blink with a 60 cooldown,thats not elite worth,not even a close. Can we arrange an exchage with a rampage or PLB?
    So far your drawbacks are : cant move properly , this pathetic 0.75s superspeed cant cover you moving anywhere, try move to the side or backwards?
    Cant cover ambush with your own evade, you ends up in situation when you have to double dodge just to not get blown. Why its important ? Even if you have 0 ping and press key instant you are vulnerable at the end of the cast, with ping 80-100, you will lose great deal of your evade frames. Interrupting ambush means its cooldown of 4(actually 5?) seconds, power block on mesmer disable your ambushes for 15 seconds. Thief stolen skills cant be affected by cooldowns if they are not given by developer (healing tree)


    Holo does have concrete tradeoffs -- although the benefits are more substantial than the drawbacks. Holo can blow themselves up, have a 5-sec cooldown on kits when entering PF, and lose access to their elite toolbelt skill (f5).

    Engineer core spec offer everything needed to prevent the biggest drawback of entire elite specialization - enormous amount of vigor at any time and stacking with vigor enchanted endurance regeneration traits with Vent Exhaust.
    Potato codes, its not really my fault they made PF a kit-alike ? I'm sure it was a mistake, kits are outdated my boy,even if you would use any kit, that wouldnt make kitsmith more viable (I dont need to explain, that many skills are bad in pvp not just engineers,okay?)


    There are some other minor issues associated with transforms too. In exchange they get a very powerful... weapon? That said, nobody is arguing that what holo has to give up is in any way comparable to what it gains, but it does have a tradeoff where mirage and chrono do not.

    I said about drawback for mirage before under the spoiler.
    Chrono indeed has no trade off and he gain F5...Not to count every other elite spec get access to their SUPER-ABILITIES way more frequent than 105 seconds cooldown and need clones to extend its duration and it has a counter as you can destroy the mote to end it right away (they tried to balance it out with a huge cooldown but also hurt the class because of it as it suffers from stupid nerfs that other elite/core dont need).
    Can you share with me which trade off mesmer should have after leaving it in such state, axe'd core by 50% nerfs at everything,gutting its core weapons/utilities/kitten,they even deleted (not even compensated it anywhere,ever) traits FOR THE SAKE of ELITES that you say HAVE NO TRADE OFF ? So nerfs on entire class to gut elite spec is not a trade off itself? If every other elite spec will be killed off like berserk/drd, go for it, but then revenants/spellbreakers/fb/scourge will reign supreme as they are unaffected by trade offs as they do now :joy:
    Many weapons/utilities/elite desperately need buff/rework but because "F5 DOES IT TWICE" they never see them(and because they seems to not care, for example MOA/Time warp, phantasms utilities were destroyed because of a chrono CP they dont want to delete).


    Thus, there's no reason ever to pick core mesmer over mirage and chrono -- because they are straight upgrades to the base class. At least with holo, you do lose some of your ability to interact with your core class (kits, f5 skill), and scrapper barely gets anything extra out of the deal. Core engineer still has uses in PvE with condi builds, but it simply cannot compete at a high level in PvP. You never find a use for core mesmer that chrono or mirage cannot do better, in any game mode.

    I said about it earlier. Core mesmer is literally trash,unviable,garbage and without elite spec it has no place anywhere, especially in powercrept place called Path Of Fire

    (SPOILER: Like many other core classes).

    After all nerfs that dropped on the mesmer, its better to be buffed to the skies before giving any trade off because all these nerfs : X thing too strong on chrono! X getting nerfed for entire class,not on chrono only. Then they gut vigor, harmless mainhand sword since estabilished to be balanced for years, was gutted because of mirage. Having 2 elite specs that dont go along with each other is a curse, not a blessing, because Anet prefer to gut core rather than elite spec.
    I hope you understand my point of view. As for now I have to play Rev as it feels 10 times stronger and impactful than mesmer in its current form.

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 18, 2019

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:
    The reason core mesmer hasn't "shone" since HoT is because both Chrono and Mirage are straight upgrades to core mesmer. There is no tradeoff beyond opportunity cost, and the benefits are mesmer massive. You could definitely make the same complaint about holo -- the tradeoffs are relatively minor, and the benefits are massive. Except that core engineer was not meta even in HoT, and scrapper wasn't much of an upgrade over core engi. With the powercreep that PoF brought, scrapper was rendered irrelevant for a long time, and core engi even further behind.

    scrapper wasn't much of an upgrade over core engi

    Are you memeing right now or srs?

    Many elite specs have no trade offs, neither holo/scrapper does as well.
    You know why core mesmer hasn't "shone" since HoT? Because you had NO chances at ANY build to compete with all busted specs being all around. Just like core engi.

    Where is that "danger" of being blown up when that heat reduction trait,thanks to perma vigor/adrenal implant, cover it pretty well ? Overheating happening only when engi playing really bad. (If you really mean overheat is a drawback/risk/whatever)
    Chrono wasnt played until phantasm rework happened, without a second thought about chronophantasma, and still causing issues till this day.
    (but thats not the point even, berserk was literally dead as well)
    Where have you seen core mesmers ? Except, unranked f2p mesmers that use time warp and illusions of life on the respawn, cant recall any

    Scrapper does not have any tradeoffs, this is true. However, the only thing it gains by choosing the scrapper line is the ability to wield hammer and function gyro. These are not massive benefits (seriously, function gyro is super buggy, easy to destroy, and difficult to use).

    Not massive benefits? How come it became so much popularity and became literally A+ class for AT/monthly ? I have no idea but I heard NA stacked them hard? On EU last monthly every team ran 1 scrapper? From Jaw vid I seen nothing but scrappers everywhere(cmirage main on scrapper won lol), may be because traits/utilities/weapon heavily benefits the engineer? No ?

    So the lack of a tradeoff for scrapper isn't as big a deal as it is say... for mirage, which gains a new weapon, ambush skills for all weapons, and the ability to attack and dodge with any skill at the same time.

    If you want my opinion about mirage elite spec , you will get it :

    dodge in stun is dumb and justify any amount of nerfs its get(portal anyone?)
    You are unable to cover your own ambush (A drawback I guess ?) that hit less than warrior dodge(which is unblockable rofl) and cost your precious endurance, mirage cant get as much as engineer to prevent the biggest drawback of entire elite specialization(vigor level must be brought down heavily so engineer would have any risk, kitten dude,I just tried adrenal implant with vigor and amount of evades I get is just crazy),thief,ele and if you arent taking chaos BD you hitting guardian/necro level of vigor. (tldr,they are not free) Without vigor its not that far away from the core in my opinon.
    New weapon - gutted, hit like a wet noodle, will not play that again.
    New brand utilities - trash, not even one worth running in PvP.
    Detarget is nothing new as stealth did the same, could be just entirely removed as it irritates people and make them hate mesmer class more.
    Elite - 2 short range nonbreakstun blink with a 60 cooldown,thats not elite worth,not even a close. Can we arrange an exchage with a rampage or PLB?
    So far your drawbacks are : cant move properly , this pathetic 0.75s superspeed cant cover you moving anywhere, try move to the side or backwards?
    Cant cover ambush with your own evade, you ends up in situation when you have to double dodge just to not get blown. Why its important ? Even if you have 0 ping and press key instant you are vulnerable at the end of the cast, with ping 80-100, you will lose great deal of your evade frames. Interrupting ambush means its cooldown of 4(actually 5?) seconds, power block on mesmer disable your ambushes for 15 seconds. Thief stolen skills cant be affected by cooldowns if they are not given by developer (healing tree)

    You don't seem to understand what I mean by tradeoffs.

    What I mean is that when you pick an elite spec, regardless of what traits you choose, you get certain perks. These perks are sometimes accompanied by losses, or tradeoffs. In the case of scrapper, it doesn't lose anything by picking the elite spec, but the "perk" it gets is function gyro. That's the only change to the functioning of the class. That's a minor perk at best. How well it performs in PvP is largely a result of the reworked gyros in concert with tanky hammer skills, which aren't a requirement of the elite spec.

    Mirage gets the ability to dodge and attack at the same time, plus ambush skills for all weapons. It loses nothing in exchange. Chrono gets continuum split, and loses nothing in exchange. These are game-changing in the way mesmer plays, and are upgrades without any drawback. So why would you pick core mesmer over the elite specs, ever?

    Holo, unlike scrapper, mirage, or chrono, does have to give stuff up. As I mentioned before, it has greater risk with overheating (+heat resource management), forced cooldown on kits, and loss of f5 toolbelt. Plus some minor stuff related to transforms and less interaction with the core class. I don't think these tradeoffs are as powerful as what holo gains, but you cannot say it gives up nothing.

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    Thus, there's no reason ever to pick core mesmer over mirage and chrono -- because they are straight upgrades to the base class. At least with holo, you do lose some of your ability to interact with your core class (kits, f5 skill), and scrapper barely gets anything extra out of the deal. Core engineer still has uses in PvE with condi builds, but it simply cannot compete at a high level in PvP. You never find a use for core mesmer that chrono or mirage cannot do better, in any game mode.

    I said about it earlier. Core mesmer is literally trash,unviable,garbage and without elite spec it has no place anywhere, especially in powercrept place called Path Of Fire

    (SPOILER: Like many other core classes).

    After all nerfs that dropped on the mesmer, its better to be buffed to the skies before giving any trade off because all these nerfs : X thing too strong on chrono! X getting nerfed for entire class,not on chrono only. Then they gut vigor, harmless mainhand sword since estabilished to be balanced for years, was gutted because of mirage. Having 2 elite specs that dont go along with each other is a curse, not a blessing, because Anet prefer to gut core rather than elite spec.

    As I said, core mesmer is the inferior choice to chrono and mirage, because you lose nothing for picking those e-specs and gain some substantial buffs. That does not mean core mesmer is in the gutter -- it's just an obviously inferior choice to its e-specs.

    Core engineer, in competitive game modes, is definitely in the gutter. You have to play way harder than everyone else to even perform at the button-mashing level of everyone else. Kits are slow and unwieldy, and our other skills don't make up for it.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 18, 2019

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    You don't seem to understand what I mean by tradeoffs.

    What I mean is that when you pick an elite spec, regardless of what traits you choose, you get certain perks. These perks are sometimes accompanied by losses, or tradeoffs. In the case of scrapper, it doesn't lose anything by picking the elite spec, but the "perk" it gets is function gyro. That's the only change to the functioning of the class. That's a minor perk at best. How well it performs in PvP is largely a result of the reworked gyros in concert with tanky hammer skills, which aren't a requirement of the elite spec.

    Mirage gets the ability to dodge and attack at the same time, plus ambush skills for all weapons. It loses nothing in exchange. Chrono gets continuum split, and loses nothing in exchange. These are game-changing in the way mesmer plays, and are upgrades without any drawback. So why would you pick core mesmer over the elite specs, ever?

    So mirage lose ability to make distance with an evade and literally sitting at the same place covered in AoE's is not a trade off?I was talkign about draw backs AND trade off as you literally trade your ability to evade for another one. Ambushes comes with a drawback and cost, normal evade being replaced with a new one as holo lose F5 and gets "BustedForge".
    Who doesnt understand the concept of trade off here?
    In the end you didnt understand what I'm tried to say with this "trade off" all around in previous post - in current state mesmer elite spec doesnt need trade off anymore.

    Holo, unlike scrapper, mirage, or chrono, does have to give stuff up. As I mentioned before, it has greater risk with overheating (+heat resource management), forced cooldown on kits, and loss of f5 toolbelt. Plus some minor stuff related to transforms and less interaction with the core class. I don't think these tradeoffs are as powerful as what holo gains, but you cannot say it gives up nothing.

    Easy solution as with revenant AND engineer the same way they got their F5: Core mesmer gets some random skill as F5 that being taken away when elite spec traited.
    Kits are outdated and serve their purpose in PvE ...oh wait why im repeating myself ?
    Engineer core spec offer everything needed to prevent/greatly reduce the biggest drawback of entire elite specialization - enormous amount of vigor at any time and stacking with vigor enchanted endurance gain trait paired with elite spec trait - Vent Exhaust. In such conditions only blind player will blow himself up. But sure, you need to look how much heat you have, sometimes,

    As I said, core mesmer is the inferior choice to chrono and mirage, because you lose nothing for picking those e-specs and gain some substantial buffs. That does not mean core mesmer is in the gutter -- it's just an obviously inferior choice to its e-specs.

    Core engineer, in competitive game modes, is definitely in the gutter. You have to play way harder than everyone else to even perform at the button-mashing level of everyone else. Kits are slow and unwieldy, and our other skills don't make up for it.

    I disagree but that doesnt really matter.

  • @Vagrant.7206 said:
    Mirage gets the ability to dodge and attack at the same time plus ambush skills for all weapons. It loses nothing in exchange.

    This is actually a built in trade off in itself. A double-edged sword basically. Because Mirage's main attacks (ambush skills) are tied to dodges, it must budget both offense and defense around endurance. With the abundance of "must dodge" attacks flying around, dodges are at a premium and can't be spammed just for ambushes. With the heavy nerfs to Vigor, this budgeting is even tighter.

    Much like Rev energy and Thief initiative, Mirage's main attacks are dependent on an additional resource: endurance. The difference being that their "dodges" also compete for this resource. No other spec has to share its endurance resource with its primary attack in this manner.

    The ambushes themselves are nothing spectacular anyhow. Ranged purple globs like those on staff and scepter are easily sidestepped. The melee ambushes are nothing to write home about either. With the hit to Mirage Cloak duration, the whole "cast while dodging" perk is out the window. Most Ambush and other cast times well exceed the 0.75 sec duration of MC.

    Then there is the nature of MC "dodging" itself. By making it the same duration as a standard dodge but with no movement, and no compensating increase to Superspeed duration, Mirage cannot move as far (to get out of say, an AOE) as a standard dodge roll in any direction other than straight forward. For a spec that's supposedly about mobility and evasion, it can feel remarkably planted in close-quarters. Those Jaunts which apparently pass for an "elite" skill are almost essential to compensate for this lack of mobility and likely why they're universally taken (besides the fact that all other elites are even less useful).

    These are game-changing in the way mesmer plays, and are upgrades without any drawback. So why would you pick core mesmer over the elite specs, ever?

    Core Mesmer is indeed like core Engi in that it is very much overshadowed by its elites. Not necessarily because there aren't trade-offs, but because the elites' mechanics may make them more effective in various gameplay. The situation isn't helped when attempts to reign in elites are undergone by nerfing core. But that is definitely what happened to Mesmer.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    What are the mysterious 'bad matchups" for HOLO/YOLO?

    If the engi mains list those, I get the feeling the mains of those match ups will have some agreement or argument against it.

    It might shed some light.

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

  • toxic.3648toxic.3648 Member ✭✭✭

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    What are the mysterious 'bad matchups" for HOLO/YOLO?

    If the engi mains list those, I get the feeling the mains of those match ups will have some agreement or argument against it.

    It might shed some light.

    Well generally my bad match ups are:
    Spellbreaker , the tankyness, blocks/evades(gs3) , numerous hard single cc and 25 might megabane tether + good burst dmg usually is hard to win against

    Next is necromancer , the booncorrupt stability to fear fcks me over Big time since i kitten those boons out on a consistent basis + consistent condition output which my cleanse cant keep up with, Chilled is very hard to play against since i rely on kiting alot.

    Rev Can be hard too if the player is good, the dmg is insane and their ability to “stick” to a target makes them annoying to deal with , catch them without heal tho and u Can finish it fast

    Soulbeast and scrapper is a slow but sure win tho. Rest of the classes are np unless the player is rly good .

    Holo main p2 EU
    These “bad matchups” Can be my inability to fight them tho, im by No means legendary player but not kitten at Holo either. Just listing the classes i generally avoid fighting since i know they Will give me a hard time

    Toxicity Pengu to the rescue /o/

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    What are the mysterious 'bad matchups" for HOLO/YOLO?

    If the engi mains list those, I get the feeling the mains of those match ups will have some agreement or argument against it.

    It might shed some light.

    Spellbreaker, Herald, a scourge who knows what they're doing. Soulbeasts can also be really dangerous if you aren't careful.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    (...) Also avoid his elite, you can blind it or simply sidestep.
    (...)

    It follows you even when you port. You need to dodge, blind it or have stab.#

    Holo is not the biggest offender right now. It is great and there is a gap between it and several other less viable classes, but there are some being more annoying. Holo comes next.

    Yeah it follows if he releases awsd - which already alot of people don't know. Then it activates, leaving you a very slight delay which takes a split second to reach you where you can simply walk out of the incoming field.

    You can try it yourself, by having a friend fire it towards you and the walk away at the end of his cast. It's nothing new, alot of skills function like this and they've always countered ports.

    If you want to check it out Boyce does exactly this on several streams, also check out Jazz Man's guide on youtube against holosmith to see different ways it can be countered.

    What exactly is it that makes holo such a big offender in your opinion?

    The sustain with such an offensive amulet, the damage for such sustainy traitlines. But I said it is** not** the biggest offender right now. :smile:

    Thought you meant the projectile. But this skill is fine, I think. It simply sucks compared to Rampage for example.

    Sure the sustain is decent in a 1v1, but the damage doesn't really rack that much up until they get good might going which already takes alot more than f.ex a warrior needs to do. On top of that they have barely 16000 hp, leaving them extremely vulnerable to a +1 and they need to avoid conditon bombs like everyone else. Way I see it is people get caught in an immob/cc chain and believe holo is op - however the same goes f.ex Rampage where if you dodge the boulder you will in 9/10 cases be fine.

    You automatically/passively generate might on its own and tops 25 while fighting and dont even focus on it. Thanks passives,especially improved utility slot as minor passive trait and conversion on holo.
    Condition bombs? From who? I mean...condi mirages are rare guests on EU, you will most likely see revenants/wars/scrappers in q.
    So 14s cd stun on rifle without any meaningful animation (1200 range bug became a feature lol), holo5 with its huge aoe that goes to all heights 15s cd, unblockable laser on 60s cd. Each is 3 seconds ? May be some 2 seconds? Can anyone tell exact time?: D

    The problem arises when people try to facetank holo and believe they should win, but the entire point of holo forge is for it to be a window of high pressure just like we saw with reaper, take away either core traitline and the sustain/damage ratio of holo becomes terrible.

    Reaper deaths charge is 8s cd? Once he used it he cant stick to you anymore? Holo? No problem,holo leap, holo leap, holo leap ! Corona burst 6 seconds ,must dodge twice or you take significant amount of damage with 8 vuln stacks and give him stability, so you tell me I have to evade twice each 6 seconds and how do I evade the rest?
    Unlike reaper that has no access to utilities/elite/whatever engi can use all of them and has ranged skill in forge,reaper doesnt. Reaper chill-CC is casting have massive wind-up even with quickness, holo even bugs it out and wave animation doesnt match actual stun(or it was fixed?) thats confusing, hit multiple times as if you rolled away too early you will get caught by the wave coming out from the holo.
    Suddenly amount of "must dodge" skills increased .

    If you avoid key skills (Forge 3, Forge 5, elite) then it's east to see that holo doesn't really have that many tricks up it's sleeve. It's a high risk high reward type of play which I am in favour of, even in it's current tanky state. Again compare it to Defense Spellbreaker.

    High risk... And we laugh...laugh....laugh....
    Defense spellbreaker , are they a problem ?

    What is your argument here? Alot of professions can stack 25 might.

    I'm not even comparing viability of reaper vs holosmith here, just pointing out that the general tactic and therefore counter is to wait it out. Of course Holo gets a low cd gap closer, it's what makes it mobile - doesn't mean you need to get hit by it.

    I don't know what you play, but as a +1 roamer I have no issue whatsoever taking them down so I get your plight if you are a mirror holo or some other bruiser, then yeah they match your sustain - which they are supposed to as duelists anyways. You want them nerfed so you'll have an easier time on your bruiser build? Makes no sense. They are right where they should be, outsustaining in a 1v1 and vulnerable to a plus. If it is 1v2ing you then someone isn't doing their job, simple as that.

    As for defense spellbreaker, they are far less vulnerable to a plus given automatic procs and damage mitigation in general, with added weapon mobility.

  • Silinsar.6298Silinsar.6298 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 18, 2019

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    What are the mysterious 'bad matchups" for HOLO/YOLO?

    If the engi mains list those, I get the feeling the mains of those match ups will have some agreement or argument against it.

    It might shed some light.

    I'm running a pretty offensive SD holo (with some tough and vit so I don't drop instantly and have time for heal combos), so this might be a varying perspective to "meta" holo builds.
    What usually gives me a harder time are DPS builds with more iframes, unblockables and high damage. Basically anything that lays out a lot of pressure fast and / or consistently and doesn't make itself vulnerable doing so. Since the elixir S proc removal I have much more respect for zerker builds, because while they are squishy, most classes have more iframes than engi and they can finish me before I get to play my strengths.

    • Berserker War with Rifle and unblockable signet: I have 2-3 (energy sigil) dodges (during which I can't really pressure the war) and then it's a DPS race. Which I'm likely gonna lose due to endure pain, stabi prevents me from using CC to stall the fight. And yes Rifle, because vs any other war you can kite to wait out the stances. You very much want cover in this matchup.
    • Power Rev: simply does a lot of damage and does well at disengaging and engaging again. This matchup swings to extremes both ways, but if a rev gets his rotations down well you can neither kite nor counter heal because your heal combos won't outheal the damage of sword AA. A well placed, offensive staff #5 wrecks holo, because even if you have a stack of stab from corona it will knock you down and deal considerable damage. Phase traversal can catch you of guard too when you're currently relying on Photon wall to defend yourself.
    • Deadeyes (in open field) that actually use Sniper's cover as... cover. They can stay out of melee range well enough and anything ranged is a projectile prone to be negated by sniper's cover (it often being unable to spot and projectiles just disappearing without any "blocked" shown makes this a very annoying skill). Ports can get them to ledges, stealth allows them to reset. Most cases can be drawn out into a draw but they can manage to disengage and a well executed combo (and RNGesus provinding high crits) will bring you down. Though tbh I haven't seen so many after the nerfs and mount introduction at all, 1 or 2 still proved deadly.
    • Offensive Soul-/boonbeasts: hits hard and has a lot of tools to prevent death. Excluding pewpews because their opening is survivable most of the time if you don't get surprised and once you get close LB becomes a sub par weapon. The deal breaker with Slb is axe with good chill and weakness uptime and good damage pressure. Meanwhile stances keep them alive well.
    • Honorable mentions to FA eles (with focus -> invuln+projectile hate) and mediguards / DHs (dangerous instant burst, coupled with sustain and a couple of projectile negating skills) which used to be dangerous in the past but are mostly easy to deal with now due to nerfs to their damage. I'd still be very careful around full zerk versions of those builds though.
    • Anything able to chain CCs can get dangerous as well due to my build only running 1 stun break. Corona provides stab only if it hits. Prime example is a core war with rampage: if I don't have Photon wall or flash shell ready I'm toast, and either can be countered with certain warrior utilities (SoH / berserker stance -> resistance, Signet of Might -> unblockable). I'll be coming back to this: what you want to do vs holos is a strong assault covered by utility / defense so they can't counterplay it.
    • Dagger storm. Sounds stupid but when you count a dozen dodges and risk being at around 2/3 health, getting ready to punish a thief once he finally runs out of them and he then dagger storms a chunk of burst back to your face, interrupts heal with steal... situation might go south. Bonus points for improvisation making the CD of dagger storm random. Probably limited to my specific build because others don't throw as much projectiles around.

    For condi:

    • Just necro, pretty much. Yes, most of the times you can kite them but ones that use corrupts well overload you with so many conditions that you can not kite or damage them effectively. In confined spaces definitely a threat.
    • Mirage hardly anymore, bare the rare exceptional player. While the condi burst is hard, when you survive you have good changes of fighting back (compared to a necro who keeps counter-corrupting anything) or kite and heal up. If a mirage tries to keep up with you they usually have to burn ports, which makes them more vulnerable and they're less likely to have one for the next burst. Getting distance from illusions means their burst becomes predictable.

    What's usually easier:

    • Anything that can be kited or can't keep up the pressure while you take your time to heal. Builds that just can't finish the job because their damage is just a bit too low and eventually you burn through their defenses. Longer fights usually favor holo because they have few high CDs and they can keep up damage and healing.

    Generally speaking, what I think makes players with builds that would be capable of succeeding lose vs me is that most people are getting intimidated by the damage. Someone turning their back on you while your're most vulnerable (e.g. charging in PF, no stab yet) means they pass their opportunity to punish you. Most builds don't manage a drawn out fight vs a holo so the plan should be to be more aggressive, not to cling to your defenses which likely run out before a holo's offensive options do.
    I also try to heal up when my enemies do (or when they kite) to prevent interrupts, HT is awesome but if someone with decent damage is on top of you while you try to combo for more healing you'll receive more damage than you heal (and even risk the turret getting destroyed before the 2nd half of the heal activates, which also leaves you without a water field to combo).
    What you want to do vs holo is being offensive while covering your attacks with defensive utilities / soft / hard CC so you deny the holo the opportunity to out-trade you in damage. This is what made mirages (and still makes some of them) a pain to fight: they can dodge and chain distortion while not stopping their assault. This is one of the hardest playstyles for holo to face, imo.

    SD Engi / Holo roaming videos: https://www.youtube.com/user/algeyr

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 18, 2019

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    The laser functions as a projectile, although with it being unblockable and all it doesn't really matter. But as with all projectiles, it has a travel time. The further away from the engi you are when it fires, the longer it takes to hit you. In this timeframe, you can move out of it's rectangular AoE given you are far enough away before it even hits.

    If that would be a thing just running away would be enough to to avoid it or give me exact time stamp on the video ... Would be appreciated, yes, Id rather to not risk getting screwed by that and evade if I actually can see the engineer.
    More over as I said, they just use "mass invis elixir" for resustain and throw off elite at you so you cant even see that

    4:18 in the first video (there are more)
    2:17 on the second video (more in depth, you can see the travel time)

    Most of the time if you use about face as you see the holo charging his elite you can get about half the distance of the skill before it casts, which is oh so satisfying when you're juuust out of range. Keeping your distance to begin with helps alot, so swap to your ranged set when they enter forge.

    If they run the metabuild, they only have that 1 option for instant stealth meaning you can know for sure something is coming. The moment you see a holo stealth, walk or dodge to cover as fast as possible. Or about face then leap straight away from it. Do not worry about the node, he won't cap it at all until he hits something or it runs out. But if you can see it being cast, and dodge/evade/invuln it then it's just as good.

    If you have access to stealth or detargets by other means using them right before the channel ends while moving to either side means it will miss entirely aswell.

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