Players Asking for dps check without knowking the boss mechanics in fractal — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Players Asking for dps check without knowking the boss mechanics in fractal

why some players don't even learn the boss mechanics before asking for dps? they just want to kill it before they need to evade, if for some reason the boss do something different they just die and harass other players with lower dps

<13

Comments

  • knite.1542knite.1542 Member ✭✭✭

    The short answer is that it is faster when executed correctly and having high DPS isn't really that difficult.

    so you are still salty about that.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    why some players don't even learn the boss mechanics before asking for dps? they just want to kill it before they need to evade, if for some reason the boss do something different they just die and harass other players with lower dps

    Thats their goal on that run. They want to skip mechanics with good dps. Thats the reason why players do raids with Solo healer aswell instead of 2 or 3 healers.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • There are fight mechanics that are really annoying, and you'd really want to skip them if possible. For example, doing updrafts on Gorseval greatly increases your chance of failure - you'd want to skip those even on training runs.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Lexi.1398Lexi.1398 Member ✭✭✭

    welcome to pugging in any game ever, where other people will blame you for their personal failures reguardless of whos actually to blame.

    if ppl have low dps you should be doing mechanics anyway even in t4, it boggles my mind too why someone would blame on another their inability to press the dodge key, but hey, thats randoms for you. howeverrrrr, sometimes you have a comp made for high dps only and so failing a "dps check" is difficult to recover from because no one brought support and the lack of a healer/aegis etc can make doing a mechanic really difficult, where with high dps you would never have came across that problem.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rodrick.1942 said:

    @Lexi.1398 said:
    welcome to pugging in any game ever, where other people will blame you for their personal failures reguardless of whos actually to blame.

    if ppl have low dps you should be doing mechanics anyway even in t4, it boggles my mind too why someone would blame on another their inability to press the dodge key, but hey, thats randoms for you. howeverrrrr, sometimes you have a comp made for high dps only and so failing a "dps check" is difficult to recover from because no one brought support and the lack of a healer/aegis etc can make doing a mechanic really difficult, where with high dps you would never have came across that problem.

    It's interesting that nowadays people think the only way to have big sick dps is bring 5 dps in t4. When no one play support, 5 dps means 5 corpses.

    Depends on the group. Also before there was support builds, 5 dps was the usual approach to fractals with maybe a mesmer or guardian for reflects.

    There is 2 general ways to do T4 CMs. Full dps no healer (while bringing hybrid supports for boons/benefits), or 1 heal and 4 dps (with again some hybrid support for boons/bendits not provided by healers).

    Regular T4 follow the same pattern. Get good enough to not bring a healer (because even if you phase or skip mechanics, you have to avoid other mechanics up to that point) or bring a healer to carry the group. Personally l prefer running a healer for normal T4 (and no healer for CM) simply because some T4 fractals throw a lot of trash and effects at the group and not every player decides to avoid all mechanics.

  • BRNBRITO.9624BRNBRITO.9624 Member ✭✭
    edited September 23, 2019

    My favorite is seeing Daredevils with Thieves guild on 99/100CM.

    "Basilisk Venom is bad, Thieves guild does a lot of damage".

    Sure does when no one CCs the boss and you just auto-attack instead of helping with 750 CC and getting 50% modifier to burn with signet and actual skills :)

  • @BRNBRITO.9624 said:
    My favorite is seeing Daredevils with Thieves guild on 99/100CM.

    "Basilisk Venom is bad, Thieves guild does a lot of damage".

    Sure does when no one CCs the boss and you just auto-attack instead of helping with 750 CC and getting 50% modifier to burn with signet and actual skills :)

    DD with thieves guild on any boss with cc. That elite does 40k damage on a incredible long cd and casttime. Its almost never worth it.

  • @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @BRNBRITO.9624 said:
    My favorite is seeing Daredevils with Thieves guild on 99/100CM.

    "Basilisk Venom is bad, Thieves guild does a lot of damage".

    Sure does when no one CCs the boss and you just auto-attack instead of helping with 750 CC and getting 50% modifier to burn with signet and actual skills :)

    DD with thieves guild on any boss with cc. That elite does 40k damage on a incredible long cd and casttime. Its almost never worth it.

    Problem is people just copy-paste golem builds/rotations and think they're doing fine

  • @BRNBRITO.9624 said:
    My favorite is seeing Daredevils with Thieves guild on 99/100CM.

    "Basilisk Venom is bad, Thieves guild does a lot of damage".

    Sure does when no one CCs the boss and you just auto-attack instead of helping with 750 CC and getting 50% modifier to burn with signet and actual skills :)

    This is why its important to change traits and skills depending on the fight. Some fights its ok to go full dps and some fights you just must CC :)

    Some days i also just go full signet when running with static, lol.

    Thief main (Pretty soldier-san)

  • This is just a tactic to try and claim them being better by skipping mechanics.

  • shejesa.3712shejesa.3712 Member ✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    Idk, I'd say that having good dps is a baseline.
    It's, like, when you drive a car withing speed limit and suddenly someone just walks onto the road, no indication, no crosswalk, and you hit them, you don't go 'huh, I should've been more careful,' rather 'kitten, who even does that,' except you curse way, which I can't do here because of our fair and benevolent moderators.

    It's not someone's fault that they don't know how to react to a mechanic that's not showing up when people are playing well, but killed them this time because you had 5k dps on a dragonhunter.
    It's like on this meme, is that some casual joke I'm actually too competent to understand?

    @dodgerrule.8739 said:
    This is just a tactic to try and claim them being better by skipping mechanics.

    But people who are able to skip mechanics by doing good dps are better than people who have to do them because they can't push buttons in a sequence for a few minutes

  • @shejesa.3712 said:
    Idk, I'd say that having good dps is a baseline.
    It's, like, when you drive a car withing speed limit and suddenly someone just walks onto the road, no indication, no crosswalk, and you hit them, you don't go 'huh, I should've been more careful,' rather 'kitten, who even does that,' except you curse way, which I can't do here because of our fair and benevolent moderators.

    It's not someone's fault that they don't know how to react to a mechanic that's not showing up when people are playing well, but killed them this time because you had 5k dps on a dragonhunter.
    It's like on this meme, is that some casual joke I'm actually too competent to understand?

    @dodgerrule.8739 said:
    This is just a tactic to try and claim them being better by skipping mechanics.

    But people who are able to skip mechanics by doing good dps are better than people who have to do them because they can't push buttons in a sequence for a few minutes

    and this is why dps meters get a bad name, certain users think big numbers and fast kills/spamming rotations/wearing zerg gear is more important than interesting gameplay. They also forget people have been happily clearing fractals without thgis kind of attitude. Something has gradually changed, and its not those people happily clearing years ago.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • vesica tempestas.1563vesica tempestas.1563 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2019

    And as before many many players happily cleared fractals without a need to "ping' gear or use meters. This is a behavioural issue that stems from a raiding culture.

    Re dmg meters, the developers of ff14 conducted some behavioral analysis and it confirmed meters do cause toxic behaviour and have banned anyone from talking about meter statistics in game. Incidentally ff14 probably has the most friendly least toxic community of any any mmorpg.

    Furthermore if you correlate toxicity with meter usage I'm betting there would be a strong correlation. Just check wow at the end of the spectrum to see where this can go.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2019

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    And as before many many players happily cleared fractals without a need to "ping' gear or use meters. This is a behavioural issue that stems from a raiding culture.

    and players are clearing content currently too without having to use damage meters or being subject to people complaining.

    The only problems arise is when players underperform severly, or if the other person had been toxic eitherway (as in the past).

    Just out of curiosity, since you are rather often bringing up fractals, what is your level of fractal experience in this game?

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    Re dmg meters, the developers of ff14 conducted some behavioral analysis and it confirmed meters do cause toxic behaviour and have banned anyone from talking about meter statistics in game. Incidentally ff14 probably has the most friendly least toxic community of any any mmorpg.

    Yes, they banned toxicity and toxic behavior, not damage meters. That's the same here by the way.

    So we have concluded that neither FF14 nor GW2 allow for toxic behavior but both allow the use of damage meters. Your point?

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    Furthermore if you correlate toxicity with meter usage I'm betting there would be a strong correlation. Just check wow at the end of the spectrum to see where this can go.

    and I'd bet that if you correlate vast performance differences between players in a group, no matter if a damage meter is present or not, toxicity would rise too, expecially if things go bad.

  • @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    and this is why dps meters get a bad name, certain users think big numbers and fast kills/spamming rotations/wearing zerg gear is more important than interesting gameplay. They also forget people have been happily clearing fractals without thgis kind of attitude. Something has gradually changed, and its not those people happily clearing years ago.

    Your analysis of this situation skips the fact that even the gw2 encounters which feature truly interesting mechanics become more and more mundane with an increasing number of clears, while the importance of attaining the endreward tends to grow. Which is where faster completion times and generally higher damage output come in.
    Fortunately you get the obligatory bonus points for deciding which players have fun the wrong way and how to do it right.

  • shejesa.3712shejesa.3712 Member ✭✭
    edited October 25, 2019

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    and this is why dps meters get a bad name, certain users think big numbers and fast kills/spamming rotations/wearing zerg gear is more important than interesting gameplay. They also forget people have been happily clearing fractals without thgis kind of attitude. Something has gradually changed, and its not those people happily clearing years ago.

    That 'something' is the knowledge of the game accessible to us. It's natural that you can accept a small kid to get his diaper messy, but once you know how to sit on a toilet you're expected to do it.
    It's basically the same thing, when you know how you can deal dps you're expected to deal dps. it's simple as that. If you don't want to deal dps, don't join teams that are optimized, make your own 'chill run no elitism' and keep failing on skovald

    Re dmg meters, the developers of ff14 conducted some behavioral analysis and it confirmed meters do cause toxic behaviour and have banned anyone from talking about meter statistics in game. Incidentally ff14 probably has the most friendly least toxic community of any any mmorpg.

    Have you ever heard about policing speech?

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 28, 2019

    @shejesa.3712 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    and this is why dps meters get a bad name, certain users think big numbers and fast kills/spamming rotations/wearing zerg gear is more important than interesting gameplay. They also forget people have been happily clearing fractals without thgis kind of attitude. Something has gradually changed, and its not those people happily clearing years ago.

    That 'something' is the knowledge of the game accessible to us. It's natural that you can accept a small kid to get his diaper messy, but once you know how to sit on a toilet you're expected to do it.
    It's basically the same thing, when you know how you can deal dps you're expected to deal dps. it's simple as that. If you don't want to deal dps, don't join teams that are optimized, make your own 'chill run no elitism' and keep failing on skovald

    That's STILL a player-determined requirement. The fact is that the game is designed so that you DON'T need that knowledge to the extent that a DPS meter is necessary to filter people out. The question here has NEVER been about if you CAN, you SHOULD. It's about recognizing the game doesn't not require it for success.

    Either way, I think it's amusing at this point because the more people insist on these high levels of performance from the playerbase, the more they exclude people they can play with ... players aren't stupid and if you don't want them in your team because they don't do what you think they should (even when it's not necessary), that only hurts you, not them.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • @Obtena.7952 said:

    @shejesa.3712 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    and this is why dps meters get a bad name, certain users think big numbers and fast kills/spamming rotations/wearing zerg gear is more important than interesting gameplay. They also forget people have been happily clearing fractals without thgis kind of attitude. Something has gradually changed, and its not those people happily clearing years ago.

    That 'something' is the knowledge of the game accessible to us. It's natural that you can accept a small kid to get his diaper messy, but once you know how to sit on a toilet you're expected to do it.
    It's basically the same thing, when you know how you can deal dps you're expected to deal dps. it's simple as that. If you don't want to deal dps, don't join teams that are optimized, make your own 'chill run no elitism' and keep failing on skovald

    That's STILL a player-determined requirement. The fact is that the game is designed so that you DON'T need that knowledge to the extent that a DPS meter is necessary to filter people out. The question here has NEVER been about if you CAN, you SHOULD. It's about recognizing the game doesn't not require it for success.

    Either way, I think it's amusing at this point because the more people insist on these high levels of performance from the playerbase, the more they exclude people they can play with ... players aren't stupid and if you don't want them in your team because they don't do what you think they should (even when it's not necessary), that only hurts you, not them.

    It doesnt hurt the side that want certain level of skill at all. Looks to me like you are not that type of player so you dont understand the mentality behind that.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 28, 2019

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @shejesa.3712 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    and this is why dps meters get a bad name, certain users think big numbers and fast kills/spamming rotations/wearing zerg gear is more important than interesting gameplay. They also forget people have been happily clearing fractals without thgis kind of attitude. Something has gradually changed, and its not those people happily clearing years ago.

    That 'something' is the knowledge of the game accessible to us. It's natural that you can accept a small kid to get his diaper messy, but once you know how to sit on a toilet you're expected to do it.
    It's basically the same thing, when you know how you can deal dps you're expected to deal dps. it's simple as that. If you don't want to deal dps, don't join teams that are optimized, make your own 'chill run no elitism' and keep failing on skovald

    That's STILL a player-determined requirement. The fact is that the game is designed so that you DON'T need that knowledge to the extent that a DPS meter is necessary to filter people out. The question here has NEVER been about if you CAN, you SHOULD. It's about recognizing the game doesn't not require it for success.

    Either way, I think it's amusing at this point because the more people insist on these high levels of performance from the playerbase, the more they exclude people they can play with ... players aren't stupid and if you don't want them in your team because they don't do what you think they should (even when it's not necessary), that only hurts you, not them.

    It doesnt hurt the side that want certain level of skill at all. Looks to me like you are not that type of player so you dont understand the mentality behind that.

    Yes it does, because you artificially restrict who you play with based on a player-imposed set of rules.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Taygus.4571Taygus.4571 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @shejesa.3712 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    and this is why dps meters get a bad name, certain users think big numbers and fast kills/spamming rotations/wearing zerg gear is more important than interesting gameplay. They also forget people have been happily clearing fractals without thgis kind of attitude. Something has gradually changed, and its not those people happily clearing years ago.

    That 'something' is the knowledge of the game accessible to us. It's natural that you can accept a small kid to get his diaper messy, but once you know how to sit on a toilet you're expected to do it.
    It's basically the same thing, when you know how you can deal dps you're expected to deal dps. it's simple as that. If you don't want to deal dps, don't join teams that are optimized, make your own 'chill run no elitism' and keep failing on skovald

    That's STILL a player-determined requirement. The fact is that the game is designed so that you DON'T need that knowledge to the extent that a DPS meter is necessary to filter people out. The question here has NEVER been about if you CAN, you SHOULD. It's about recognizing the game doesn't not require it for success.

    Either way, I think it's amusing at this point because the more people insist on these high levels of performance from the playerbase, the more they exclude people they can play with ... players aren't stupid and if you don't want them in your team because they don't do what you think they should (even when it's not necessary), that only hurts you, not them.

    It doesnt hurt the side that want certain level of skill at all. Looks to me like you are not that type of player so you dont understand the mentality behind that.

    Yes it does, because you artificially restrict who you play with based on a player-imposed set of rules.

    Only if you can't find decent players.

    And well decent players usually can find a team.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 29, 2019

    @Taygus.4571 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @shejesa.3712 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    and this is why dps meters get a bad name, certain users think big numbers and fast kills/spamming rotations/wearing zerg gear is more important than interesting gameplay. They also forget people have been happily clearing fractals without thgis kind of attitude. Something has gradually changed, and its not those people happily clearing years ago.

    That 'something' is the knowledge of the game accessible to us. It's natural that you can accept a small kid to get his diaper messy, but once you know how to sit on a toilet you're expected to do it.
    It's basically the same thing, when you know how you can deal dps you're expected to deal dps. it's simple as that. If you don't want to deal dps, don't join teams that are optimized, make your own 'chill run no elitism' and keep failing on skovald

    That's STILL a player-determined requirement. The fact is that the game is designed so that you DON'T need that knowledge to the extent that a DPS meter is necessary to filter people out. The question here has NEVER been about if you CAN, you SHOULD. It's about recognizing the game doesn't not require it for success.

    Either way, I think it's amusing at this point because the more people insist on these high levels of performance from the playerbase, the more they exclude people they can play with ... players aren't stupid and if you don't want them in your team because they don't do what you think they should (even when it's not necessary), that only hurts you, not them.

    It doesnt hurt the side that want certain level of skill at all. Looks to me like you are not that type of player so you dont understand the mentality behind that.

    Yes it does, because you artificially restrict who you play with based on a player-imposed set of rules.

    Only if you can't find decent players.

    And well decent players usually can find a team.

    No, that still hurts those players, even if they can find decent players because that pool of players they can pull from is artificially diminished. I mean, no one should be trying to make a sensible statement that reducing people they can play with (artificially or not) is good ... but here you are?

    That's the whole point. It gets harder to find decent players because artificially limiting your 'allowed' playerbase with these restrictions in a game that is designed around a low threshold of success automatically makes it harder. It doesn't get better either. As it gets easier to gear and do damage without the knowledge of how to do it, the shift is to knowing less, not more, about achieving highest DPS capability.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    That's the whole point. It gets harder to find decent players because artificially limiting your 'allowed' playerbase with these restrictions in a game that is designed around a low threshold of success automatically makes it harder. It doesn't get better either. As it gets easier to gear and do damage without the knowledge of how to do it, the shift is to knowing less, not more, about achieving highest DPS capability.

    Do you prefer the old no necro or ranger groups or 10k ap+ only ones? You want to restrict heavy optimized groups artificially aswell with taking bad no dps players. Play how you want includes high end speedruns aswell.
    The thing is that raids and fractals would probably be dead without a dps meter. Dps racing or trying to improve the personal best is most of the time the only reason why veterans are still doing such content. Fractals with a healer are so braindead easy for experienced players that only an artificial challenge without a healer and phase checks make them challenging. I know that a lot of players hate enrage timers but i really enjoy them personally since they add at least some tension for me.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    That's the whole point. It gets harder to find decent players because artificially limiting your 'allowed' playerbase with these restrictions in a game that is designed around a low threshold of success automatically makes it harder. It doesn't get better either. As it gets easier to gear and do damage without the knowledge of how to do it, the shift is to knowing less, not more, about achieving highest DPS capability.

    Do you prefer the old no necro or ranger groups or 10k ap+ only ones? You want to restrict heavy optimized groups artificially aswell with taking bad no dps players. Play how you want includes high end speedruns aswell.
    The thing is that raids and fractals would probably be dead without a dps meter. Dps racing or trying to improve the personal best is most of the time the only reason why veterans are still doing such content. Fractals with a healer are so braindead easy for experienced players that only an artificial challenge without a healer and phase checks make them challenging. I know that a lot of players hate enrage timers but i really enjoy them personally since they add at least some tension for me.

    I don't live in your world ... I'm not asking heavy optimized groups to take players that do as they please, I don't have a problem with restriction of any kind. You can substitute DPs meters for AP counts or gear checks or whatever you want ... it doesn't change what I said; artificially restricting who you play with is not a long term sustainable practice. If people embrace the design of the game, these things are irrelevant and the world opens up to you. I've learned that and the people I play with learned it too. We never have a problem.

    No DPS meters would have killed fractals? I don't get that ... stopwatches don't exist where you are?

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • @Obtena.7952 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @shejesa.3712 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    and this is why dps meters get a bad name, certain users think big numbers and fast kills/spamming rotations/wearing zerg gear is more important than interesting gameplay. They also forget people have been happily clearing fractals without thgis kind of attitude. Something has gradually changed, and its not those people happily clearing years ago.

    That 'something' is the knowledge of the game accessible to us. It's natural that you can accept a small kid to get his diaper messy, but once you know how to sit on a toilet you're expected to do it.
    It's basically the same thing, when you know how you can deal dps you're expected to deal dps. it's simple as that. If you don't want to deal dps, don't join teams that are optimized, make your own 'chill run no elitism' and keep failing on skovald

    That's STILL a player-determined requirement. The fact is that the game is designed so that you DON'T need that knowledge to the extent that a DPS meter is necessary to filter people out. The question here has NEVER been about if you CAN, you SHOULD. It's about recognizing the game doesn't not require it for success.

    Either way, I think it's amusing at this point because the more people insist on these high levels of performance from the playerbase, the more they exclude people they can play with ... players aren't stupid and if you don't want them in your team because they don't do what you think they should (even when it's not necessary), that only hurts you, not them.

    It doesnt hurt the side that want certain level of skill at all. Looks to me like you are not that type of player so you dont understand the mentality behind that.

    Yes it does, because you artificially restrict who you play with based on a player-imposed set of rules.

    You can either w8 30 minutes doing something else (and having fun) and then having fun in raid for 5 minutes or you can kill the boss in 30 minutes without any fun.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 29, 2019

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Taygus.4571 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @shejesa.3712 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    and this is why dps meters get a bad name, certain users think big numbers and fast kills/spamming rotations/wearing zerg gear is more important than interesting gameplay. They also forget people have been happily clearing fractals without thgis kind of attitude. Something has gradually changed, and its not those people happily clearing years ago.

    That 'something' is the knowledge of the game accessible to us. It's natural that you can accept a small kid to get his diaper messy, but once you know how to sit on a toilet you're expected to do it.
    It's basically the same thing, when you know how you can deal dps you're expected to deal dps. it's simple as that. If you don't want to deal dps, don't join teams that are optimized, make your own 'chill run no elitism' and keep failing on skovald

    That's STILL a player-determined requirement. The fact is that the game is designed so that you DON'T need that knowledge to the extent that a DPS meter is necessary to filter people out. The question here has NEVER been about if you CAN, you SHOULD. It's about recognizing the game doesn't not require it for success.

    Either way, I think it's amusing at this point because the more people insist on these high levels of performance from the playerbase, the more they exclude people they can play with ... players aren't stupid and if you don't want them in your team because they don't do what you think they should (even when it's not necessary), that only hurts you, not them.

    It doesnt hurt the side that want certain level of skill at all. Looks to me like you are not that type of player so you dont understand the mentality behind that.

    Yes it does, because you artificially restrict who you play with based on a player-imposed set of rules.

    Only if you can't find decent players.

    And well decent players usually can find a team.

    No, that still hurts those players, even if they can find decent players because that pool of players they can pull from is artificially diminished. I mean, no one should be trying to make a sensible statement that reducing people they can play with (artificially or not) is good ... but here you are?

    Your first mistake is to consider the entire playerbase as equal in terms of skill. If we were to take a reasonable real life example of say a job opening: you don't look for just ANY person to fill that spot and the more challenging the position, the harsher and restricting the search criteria in general. That's efficient and often required. So the argument that artificially restricting the pool of players makes no sense is plain incorrect. It's being done in multiple fields of live with great success and is often even necessary.

    Now how does one get to fill the criteria for such a position? By working the way up to meet the required abilities. This is akin to joining trainings, practicing rotations, finding a guild who will teach one, etc.

    Joining a high performance group with absolute no encounter knowledge would even be detrimental. You get "carried" by other players, likely gain less/no experience than when actively working on clearing the boss and potentially even end up with completely incorrect experience and approach if other players cover your mistakes. The only thing accomlished here is maybe gaining the reward, which is not the same as becoming more proficient at the game.

    If this is only about reward distribution among as many arbitrary players as possible, sure then artificial restrictions are not useful.

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    That's the whole point. It gets harder to find decent players because artificially limiting your 'allowed' playerbase with these restrictions in a game that is designed around a low threshold of success automatically makes it harder. It doesn't get better either. As it gets easier to gear and do damage without the knowledge of how to do it, the shift is to knowing less, not more, about achieving highest DPS capability.

    Sorry, again treating all players as equal especially in light of the high performance differences even with similar gear, builds an traits, is not a healthy way to argue. There is players doing 1-4k dps now as they did 7 years ago. Gear and skills/traits are of minor consequence here.

    As was pointed out in multiple threads on this topic: Guild Wars 2 is one of the few MMORPGS which require players to actually get better with their gameplay, without being able to outgear content severly. Improving and becoming better at things always entails practice.

  • Aeon.4583Aeon.4583 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 29, 2019

    Can relate. I did Arkk once and been flagged like 4 times in a row for Corporeal Reassignment.
    Then someone started to troll me because my DPS lower compared to previous boss fight. My primary Fractal characters are melee, and traits focused on melee. There is no choice but to have lower DPS while you sit in containment, even if you switch in ranged mode.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 29, 2019

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @shejesa.3712 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    and this is why dps meters get a bad name, certain users think big numbers and fast kills/spamming rotations/wearing zerg gear is more important than interesting gameplay. They also forget people have been happily clearing fractals without thgis kind of attitude. Something has gradually changed, and its not those people happily clearing years ago.

    That 'something' is the knowledge of the game accessible to us. It's natural that you can accept a small kid to get his diaper messy, but once you know how to sit on a toilet you're expected to do it.
    It's basically the same thing, when you know how you can deal dps you're expected to deal dps. it's simple as that. If you don't want to deal dps, don't join teams that are optimized, make your own 'chill run no elitism' and keep failing on skovald

    That's STILL a player-determined requirement. The fact is that the game is designed so that you DON'T need that knowledge to the extent that a DPS meter is necessary to filter people out. The question here has NEVER been about if you CAN, you SHOULD. It's about recognizing the game doesn't not require it for success.

    Either way, I think it's amusing at this point because the more people insist on these high levels of performance from the playerbase, the more they exclude people they can play with ... players aren't stupid and if you don't want them in your team because they don't do what you think they should (even when it's not necessary), that only hurts you, not them.

    It doesnt hurt the side that want certain level of skill at all. Looks to me like you are not that type of player so you dont understand the mentality behind that.

    Yes it does, because you artificially restrict who you play with based on a player-imposed set of rules.

    You can either w8 30 minutes doing something else (and having fun) and then having fun in raid for 5 minutes or you can kill the boss in 30 minutes without any fun.

    This exactly.
    I pretty much only enjoy group content, running it with like-minded players that is. Making my enjoyment of this content more about the people I run with rather than any specific wings or bosses. Meaning that I would hardly stay around to raid with those I do not enjoy playing with, in a way that is no fun to me after we make sure to make even more people quit due to the raids becoming even less interesting for the hardcore and semi-hardcore communities.
    A lack of new content isn't enough, we also need to make sure they can no longer run the old content the way they enjoy.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 29, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Taygus.4571 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @shejesa.3712 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    and this is why dps meters get a bad name, certain users think big numbers and fast kills/spamming rotations/wearing zerg gear is more important than interesting gameplay. They also forget people have been happily clearing fractals without thgis kind of attitude. Something has gradually changed, and its not those people happily clearing years ago.

    That 'something' is the knowledge of the game accessible to us. It's natural that you can accept a small kid to get his diaper messy, but once you know how to sit on a toilet you're expected to do it.
    It's basically the same thing, when you know how you can deal dps you're expected to deal dps. it's simple as that. If you don't want to deal dps, don't join teams that are optimized, make your own 'chill run no elitism' and keep failing on skovald

    That's STILL a player-determined requirement. The fact is that the game is designed so that you DON'T need that knowledge to the extent that a DPS meter is necessary to filter people out. The question here has NEVER been about if you CAN, you SHOULD. It's about recognizing the game doesn't not require it for success.

    Either way, I think it's amusing at this point because the more people insist on these high levels of performance from the playerbase, the more they exclude people they can play with ... players aren't stupid and if you don't want them in your team because they don't do what you think they should (even when it's not necessary), that only hurts you, not them.

    It doesnt hurt the side that want certain level of skill at all. Looks to me like you are not that type of player so you dont understand the mentality behind that.

    Yes it does, because you artificially restrict who you play with based on a player-imposed set of rules.

    Only if you can't find decent players.

    And well decent players usually can find a team.

    No, that still hurts those players, even if they can find decent players because that pool of players they can pull from is artificially diminished. I mean, no one should be trying to make a sensible statement that reducing people they can play with (artificially or not) is good ... but here you are?

    Your first mistake is to consider the entire playerbase as equal in terms of skill. If we were to take a reasonable real life example of say a job opening: you don't look for just ANY person to fill that spot and the more challenging the position, the harsher and restricting the search criteria in general.

    No, that is YOUR mistake to look at an opening in a raid team like a job. See, that's why I don't have these problems... My view of the game is that I play because of fun .. or more accurately, my definition of fun isn't about being in the top 1% DPS. I have found other people with the same philosophy ... and because we have this healthy view AND the game is designed to support that philosophy ... these aren't problems for us.

    You can play how you want ... and if you're view of doing that is FUN = being in the top 1% DPS. That's fine. Just be aware that you are in small company relative to people that don't think that way. This conversation would be different if GW2 was like lots of other games where high performance is needed for success and certainly, there are some places in GW2 that's true ... but the majority of the game does not prescribe to that idea so the baggage people bring with them from those other games doesn't help them in this game.

    I see little value in rehashing arguments I had with metapushers from 6 years ago; they were wrong then and they are wrong now. The fact is that this game is not designed to exclude people who play how they want ... and that includes people that DO NOT want to be in the 1% club. That's why you can carry people and succeed in most cases ... because that's the intention of the game.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Taygus.4571 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @shejesa.3712 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    and this is why dps meters get a bad name, certain users think big numbers and fast kills/spamming rotations/wearing zerg gear is more important than interesting gameplay. They also forget people have been happily clearing fractals without thgis kind of attitude. Something has gradually changed, and its not those people happily clearing years ago.

    That 'something' is the knowledge of the game accessible to us. It's natural that you can accept a small kid to get his diaper messy, but once you know how to sit on a toilet you're expected to do it.
    It's basically the same thing, when you know how you can deal dps you're expected to deal dps. it's simple as that. If you don't want to deal dps, don't join teams that are optimized, make your own 'chill run no elitism' and keep failing on skovald

    That's STILL a player-determined requirement. The fact is that the game is designed so that you DON'T need that knowledge to the extent that a DPS meter is necessary to filter people out. The question here has NEVER been about if you CAN, you SHOULD. It's about recognizing the game doesn't not require it for success.

    Either way, I think it's amusing at this point because the more people insist on these high levels of performance from the playerbase, the more they exclude people they can play with ... players aren't stupid and if you don't want them in your team because they don't do what you think they should (even when it's not necessary), that only hurts you, not them.

    It doesnt hurt the side that want certain level of skill at all. Looks to me like you are not that type of player so you dont understand the mentality behind that.

    Yes it does, because you artificially restrict who you play with based on a player-imposed set of rules.

    Only if you can't find decent players.

    And well decent players usually can find a team.

    No, that still hurts those players, even if they can find decent players because that pool of players they can pull from is artificially diminished. I mean, no one should be trying to make a sensible statement that reducing people they can play with (artificially or not) is good ... but here you are?

    Your first mistake is to consider the entire playerbase as equal in terms of skill. If we were to take a reasonable real life example of say a job opening: you don't look for just ANY person to fill that spot and the more challenging the position, the harsher and restricting the search criteria in general.

    No, that is YOUR mistake to look at an opening in a raid team like a job. See, that's why I don't have these problems... My view of the game is that I play because of fun .. or more accurately, my definition of fun isn't about being in the top 1% DPS. I have found other people with the same philosophy ... and because we have this healthy view AND the game is designed to support that philosophy ... these aren't problems for us.

    You can play how you want ... and if you're view of doing that is FUN = being in the top 1% DPS. That's fine. Just be aware that you are in small company relative to people that don't think that way. This conversation would be different if GW2 was like lots of other games where high performance is needed for success and certainly, there are some places in GW2 that's true ... but the majority of the game does not prescribe to that idea so the baggage people bring with them from those other games doesn't help them in this game.

    I see little value in rehashing arguments I had with metapushers from 6 years ago; they were wrong then and they are wrong now. The fact is that this game is not designed to exclude people who play how they want ... and that includes people that DO NOT want to be in the 1% club. That's why you can carry people and succeed in most cases ... because that's the intention of the game.

    To be fair, game is designed with our philosophy too because commander can kick anyone without any reason. His/hers squad so his/hers rules.
    In fractals it is diferent but multiple players can kick anyone if they dont want him there. That works for both sides.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 29, 2019

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Taygus.4571 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @shejesa.3712 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    and this is why dps meters get a bad name, certain users think big numbers and fast kills/spamming rotations/wearing zerg gear is more important than interesting gameplay. They also forget people have been happily clearing fractals without thgis kind of attitude. Something has gradually changed, and its not those people happily clearing years ago.

    That 'something' is the knowledge of the game accessible to us. It's natural that you can accept a small kid to get his diaper messy, but once you know how to sit on a toilet you're expected to do it.
    It's basically the same thing, when you know how you can deal dps you're expected to deal dps. it's simple as that. If you don't want to deal dps, don't join teams that are optimized, make your own 'chill run no elitism' and keep failing on skovald

    That's STILL a player-determined requirement. The fact is that the game is designed so that you DON'T need that knowledge to the extent that a DPS meter is necessary to filter people out. The question here has NEVER been about if you CAN, you SHOULD. It's about recognizing the game doesn't not require it for success.

    Either way, I think it's amusing at this point because the more people insist on these high levels of performance from the playerbase, the more they exclude people they can play with ... players aren't stupid and if you don't want them in your team because they don't do what you think they should (even when it's not necessary), that only hurts you, not them.

    It doesnt hurt the side that want certain level of skill at all. Looks to me like you are not that type of player so you dont understand the mentality behind that.

    Yes it does, because you artificially restrict who you play with based on a player-imposed set of rules.

    Only if you can't find decent players.

    And well decent players usually can find a team.

    No, that still hurts those players, even if they can find decent players because that pool of players they can pull from is artificially diminished. I mean, no one should be trying to make a sensible statement that reducing people they can play with (artificially or not) is good ... but here you are?

    Your first mistake is to consider the entire playerbase as equal in terms of skill. If we were to take a reasonable real life example of say a job opening: you don't look for just ANY person to fill that spot and the more challenging the position, the harsher and restricting the search criteria in general.

    No, that is YOUR mistake to look at an opening in a raid team like a job. See, that's why I don't have these problems... My view of the game is that I play because of fun .. or more accurately, my definition of fun isn't about being in the top 1% DPS. I have found other people with the same philosophy ... and because we have this healthy view AND the game is designed to support that philosophy ... these aren't problems for us.

    You can play how you want ... and if you're view of doing that is FUN = being in the top 1% DPS. That's fine. Just be aware that you are in small company relative to people that don't think that way. This conversation would be different if GW2 was like lots of other games where high performance is needed for success and certainly, there are some places in GW2 that's true ... but the majority of the game does not prescribe to that idea so the baggage people bring with them from those other games doesn't help them in this game.

    I see little value in rehashing arguments I had with metapushers from 6 years ago; they were wrong then and they are wrong now. The fact is that this game is not designed to exclude people who play how they want ... and that includes people that DO NOT want to be in the 1% club. That's why you can carry people and succeed in most cases ... because that's the intention of the game.

    To be fair, game is designed with our philosophy too because commander can kick anyone without any reason. His/hers squad so his/hers rules.
    In fractals it is diferent but multiple players can kick anyone if they dont want him there. That works for both sides.

    That doesn't make sense ... kicking people is a basic function of the game, regardless of whatever philosophy you adhere to. You can kick someone for any reason you want. So the ability to kick doesn't seem to me to favour any philosophy.

    What I do know is that the threshold for success is low and deficiencies can be overcome with a team approach, so the game design does support the idea people can play how they want and be successful, including people that don't care about performance.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • @Obtena.7952 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Taygus.4571 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @shejesa.3712 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    and this is why dps meters get a bad name, certain users think big numbers and fast kills/spamming rotations/wearing zerg gear is more important than interesting gameplay. They also forget people have been happily clearing fractals without thgis kind of attitude. Something has gradually changed, and its not those people happily clearing years ago.

    That 'something' is the knowledge of the game accessible to us. It's natural that you can accept a small kid to get his diaper messy, but once you know how to sit on a toilet you're expected to do it.
    It's basically the same thing, when you know how you can deal dps you're expected to deal dps. it's simple as that. If you don't want to deal dps, don't join teams that are optimized, make your own 'chill run no elitism' and keep failing on skovald

    That's STILL a player-determined requirement. The fact is that the game is designed so that you DON'T need that knowledge to the extent that a DPS meter is necessary to filter people out. The question here has NEVER been about if you CAN, you SHOULD. It's about recognizing the game doesn't not require it for success.

    Either way, I think it's amusing at this point because the more people insist on these high levels of performance from the playerbase, the more they exclude people they can play with ... players aren't stupid and if you don't want them in your team because they don't do what you think they should (even when it's not necessary), that only hurts you, not them.

    It doesnt hurt the side that want certain level of skill at all. Looks to me like you are not that type of player so you dont understand the mentality behind that.

    Yes it does, because you artificially restrict who you play with based on a player-imposed set of rules.

    Only if you can't find decent players.

    And well decent players usually can find a team.

    No, that still hurts those players, even if they can find decent players because that pool of players they can pull from is artificially diminished. I mean, no one should be trying to make a sensible statement that reducing people they can play with (artificially or not) is good ... but here you are?

    Your first mistake is to consider the entire playerbase as equal in terms of skill. If we were to take a reasonable real life example of say a job opening: you don't look for just ANY person to fill that spot and the more challenging the position, the harsher and restricting the search criteria in general.

    No, that is YOUR mistake to look at an opening in a raid team like a job. See, that's why I don't have these problems... My view of the game is that I play because of fun .. or more accurately, my definition of fun isn't about being in the top 1% DPS. I have found other people with the same philosophy ... and because we have this healthy view AND the game is designed to support that philosophy ... these aren't problems for us.

    You can play how you want ... and if you're view of doing that is FUN = being in the top 1% DPS. That's fine. Just be aware that you are in small company relative to people that don't think that way. This conversation would be different if GW2 was like lots of other games where high performance is needed for success and certainly, there are some places in GW2 that's true ... but the majority of the game does not prescribe to that idea so the baggage people bring with them from those other games doesn't help them in this game.

    I see little value in rehashing arguments I had with metapushers from 6 years ago; they were wrong then and they are wrong now. The fact is that this game is not designed to exclude people who play how they want ... and that includes people that DO NOT want to be in the 1% club. That's why you can carry people and succeed in most cases ... because that's the intention of the game.

    To be fair, game is designed with our philosophy too because commander can kick anyone without any reason. His/hers squad so his/hers rules.
    In fractals it is diferent but multiple players can kick anyone if they dont want him there. That works for both sides.

    That doesn't make sense ... kicking people is a basic function of the game, regardless of whatever philosophy you adhere to. You can kick someone for any reason you want. Whatever philosophy you have doesn't matter. So the ability to kick doesn't seem to me to favour any philosophy.

    What I do know is that the threshold for success is low and deficiencies can be overcome with a team approach, so the game design does support the idea people can play how they want and be successful, including people that don't care about performance.

    But if you are a commander you can set any requirements YOU want. If anyone dont match those you can freely kick him/her. If someone wants pink armor thats ok. If someone else want 5000KP and 1000g donation that is also ok. If you dont match requirements then it is up to COMMANDER to decide if he wants you there. End of story

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 29, 2019

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Taygus.4571 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @shejesa.3712 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    and this is why dps meters get a bad name, certain users think big numbers and fast kills/spamming rotations/wearing zerg gear is more important than interesting gameplay. They also forget people have been happily clearing fractals without thgis kind of attitude. Something has gradually changed, and its not those people happily clearing years ago.

    That 'something' is the knowledge of the game accessible to us. It's natural that you can accept a small kid to get his diaper messy, but once you know how to sit on a toilet you're expected to do it.
    It's basically the same thing, when you know how you can deal dps you're expected to deal dps. it's simple as that. If you don't want to deal dps, don't join teams that are optimized, make your own 'chill run no elitism' and keep failing on skovald

    That's STILL a player-determined requirement. The fact is that the game is designed so that you DON'T need that knowledge to the extent that a DPS meter is necessary to filter people out. The question here has NEVER been about if you CAN, you SHOULD. It's about recognizing the game doesn't not require it for success.

    Either way, I think it's amusing at this point because the more people insist on these high levels of performance from the playerbase, the more they exclude people they can play with ... players aren't stupid and if you don't want them in your team because they don't do what you think they should (even when it's not necessary), that only hurts you, not them.

    It doesnt hurt the side that want certain level of skill at all. Looks to me like you are not that type of player so you dont understand the mentality behind that.

    Yes it does, because you artificially restrict who you play with based on a player-imposed set of rules.

    Only if you can't find decent players.

    And well decent players usually can find a team.

    No, that still hurts those players, even if they can find decent players because that pool of players they can pull from is artificially diminished. I mean, no one should be trying to make a sensible statement that reducing people they can play with (artificially or not) is good ... but here you are?

    Your first mistake is to consider the entire playerbase as equal in terms of skill. If we were to take a reasonable real life example of say a job opening: you don't look for just ANY person to fill that spot and the more challenging the position, the harsher and restricting the search criteria in general.

    No, that is YOUR mistake to look at an opening in a raid team like a job. See, that's why I don't have these problems... My view of the game is that I play because of fun .. or more accurately, my definition of fun isn't about being in the top 1% DPS. I have found other people with the same philosophy ... and because we have this healthy view AND the game is designed to support that philosophy ... these aren't problems for us.

    You can play how you want ... and if you're view of doing that is FUN = being in the top 1% DPS. That's fine. Just be aware that you are in small company relative to people that don't think that way. This conversation would be different if GW2 was like lots of other games where high performance is needed for success and certainly, there are some places in GW2 that's true ... but the majority of the game does not prescribe to that idea so the baggage people bring with them from those other games doesn't help them in this game.

    I see little value in rehashing arguments I had with metapushers from 6 years ago; they were wrong then and they are wrong now. The fact is that this game is not designed to exclude people who play how they want ... and that includes people that DO NOT want to be in the 1% club. That's why you can carry people and succeed in most cases ... because that's the intention of the game.

    To be fair, game is designed with our philosophy too because commander can kick anyone without any reason. His/hers squad so his/hers rules.
    In fractals it is diferent but multiple players can kick anyone if they dont want him there. That works for both sides.

    That doesn't make sense ... kicking people is a basic function of the game, regardless of whatever philosophy you adhere to. You can kick someone for any reason you want. Whatever philosophy you have doesn't matter. So the ability to kick doesn't seem to me to favour any philosophy.

    What I do know is that the threshold for success is low and deficiencies can be overcome with a team approach, so the game design does support the idea people can play how they want and be successful, including people that don't care about performance.

    But if you are a commander you can set any requirements YOU want. If anyone dont match those you can freely kick him/her. If someone wants pink armor thats ok. If someone else want 5000KP and 1000g donation that is also ok. If you dont match requirements then it is up to COMMANDER to decide if he wants you there. End of story

    Yeah ... I'm not saying anything contrary to that. I don't see how your point is related to the discussion.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 29, 2019

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Taygus.4571 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @shejesa.3712 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    and this is why dps meters get a bad name, certain users think big numbers and fast kills/spamming rotations/wearing zerg gear is more important than interesting gameplay. They also forget people have been happily clearing fractals without thgis kind of attitude. Something has gradually changed, and its not those people happily clearing years ago.

    That 'something' is the knowledge of the game accessible to us. It's natural that you can accept a small kid to get his diaper messy, but once you know how to sit on a toilet you're expected to do it.
    It's basically the same thing, when you know how you can deal dps you're expected to deal dps. it's simple as that. If you don't want to deal dps, don't join teams that are optimized, make your own 'chill run no elitism' and keep failing on skovald

    That's STILL a player-determined requirement. The fact is that the game is designed so that you DON'T need that knowledge to the extent that a DPS meter is necessary to filter people out. The question here has NEVER been about if you CAN, you SHOULD. It's about recognizing the game doesn't not require it for success.

    Either way, I think it's amusing at this point because the more people insist on these high levels of performance from the playerbase, the more they exclude people they can play with ... players aren't stupid and if you don't want them in your team because they don't do what you think they should (even when it's not necessary), that only hurts you, not them.

    It doesnt hurt the side that want certain level of skill at all. Looks to me like you are not that type of player so you dont understand the mentality behind that.

    Yes it does, because you artificially restrict who you play with based on a player-imposed set of rules.

    Only if you can't find decent players.

    And well decent players usually can find a team.

    No, that still hurts those players, even if they can find decent players because that pool of players they can pull from is artificially diminished. I mean, no one should be trying to make a sensible statement that reducing people they can play with (artificially or not) is good ... but here you are?

    Your first mistake is to consider the entire playerbase as equal in terms of skill. If we were to take a reasonable real life example of say a job opening: you don't look for just ANY person to fill that spot and the more challenging the position, the harsher and restricting the search criteria in general.

    No, that is YOUR mistake to look at an opening in a raid team like a job. See, that's why I don't have these problems... My view of the game is that I play because of fun .. or more accurately, my definition of fun isn't about being in the top 1% DPS. I have found other people with the same philosophy ... and because we have this healthy view AND the game is designed to support that philosophy ... these aren't problems for us.

    No, I was bringing this example to directly refute your argument that limiting applicants makes no sense. That argument is nosense when it comes to efficiency as proven by its successful use in just about any sector where proficiency is of consequence.

    How one stands on the issue of how much this is required for a game is a completely different issue.

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    You can play how you want ... and if you're view of doing that is FUN = being in the top 1% DPS. That's fine. Just be aware that you are in small company relative to people that don't think that way. This conversation would be different if GW2 was like lots of other games where high performance is needed for success and certainly, there are some places in GW2 that's true ... but the majority of the game does not prescribe to that idea so the baggage people bring with them from those other games doesn't help them in this game.

    Then all is fine. If everyone gets to play how they want, no one should take offence. That also includes that no one is allowed to take offence at people who do not want to play with them, right?

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    I see little value in rehashing arguments I had with metapushers from 6 years ago; they were wrong then and they are wrong now. The fact is that this game is not designed to exclude people who play how they want ... and that includes people that DO NOT want to be in the 1% club. That's why you can carry people and succeed in most cases ... because that's the intention of the game.

    You don't have to be in the 1% club. Unfortunately, you kind of have to be in the 10% club because the bottom 90% club is utter trash game skill wise. But as you mentioned, if all players play with whom and how they want, no one should have an issue.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 29, 2019

    A smaller pool of applicants is the logical result of imposing player-made restrictions when forming a team ... so it does make sense.

    Here is why DPS meters are not good ... because they give a false sense of what a player is capable of doing. They are toxic because people use them in this way to filter people. The range of DPS for most instance content is so wide that you could literally short-man most of them, so don't pull that "not 1%, but probably 10%" stuff ... there is a SIGNIFICANT margin of DPS range that can win most encounters ... and it only gets easier to accomplish as more good gear gets released.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 29, 2019

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    A smaller pool of applicants is the logical result of imposing player-made restrictions when forming a team ... so it does make sense.

    Here is why DPS meters are not good ... because they give a false sense of what a player is capable of doing. They are toxic because people use them in this way to filter people. The range of DPS for most instance content is so wide that you could literally short-man most of them, so don't pull that "not 1%, but probably 10%" stuff ... there is a SIGNIFICANT margin of DPS range that can win most encounters ... and it only gets easier to accomplish as more good gear gets released.

    I am not talking about actual performance difference on the dps meter.

    I am talking about actual players willing, able and capable to perform to in some way clear a raid or challenge mode fractal. That's at best 10-15% of the entire player base if we count EVERY person with minimal raid experience.

    If we talk decent or even good performance, sure you will end up very fast in the top 1% of players.

    As far as use of the dps meter. I don't know what others use it for, but I do regular analysis of positioning, boon uptime, damage taken and rotations regularly. Both to see where the static I am in has issues, where we have gaps and which members need to practice. EDIT: and obviously if a trial canditate gets to stay or not. For training runs it's mostly a positioning and mechanic fails thing (obviously for different groups I run with).

    EDIT 2: yes, there is a range. Why should my static settle for less though? We clear Dhuum in half a rotation which reduces time of the engagement and thus a reduced chance to mess up a mechanic. Most members are at 150-250+ Dhuum KP with obviously over 100 successful kills or more. Most enjoy pushing their class to the max. Why should this group take in a player who performs far below this standard?

  • knite.1542knite.1542 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Most enjoy pushing their class to the max. Why should this group take in a player who performs far below this standard?

    I guess the argument is that as long as you can get the kill, you should accept any and everyone. And if you don't do that, you are toxic.

    so you are still salty about that.

  • @knite.1542 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Most enjoy pushing their class to the max. Why should this group take in a player who performs far below this standard?

    I guess the argument is that as long as you can get the kill, you should accept any and everyone. And if you don't do that, you are toxic.

    If that is true than that is the dumbest thing I heared in a while. Would be ok if there was could and not should.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    A smaller pool of applicants is the logical result of imposing player-made restrictions when forming a team ... so it does make sense.

    Here is why DPS meters are not good ... because they give a false sense of what a player is capable of doing. They are toxic because people use them in this way to filter people. The range of DPS for most instance content is so wide that you could literally short-man most of them, so don't pull that "not 1%, but probably 10%" stuff ... there is a SIGNIFICANT margin of DPS range that can win most encounters ... and it only gets easier to accomplish as more good gear gets released.

    I am not talking about actual performance difference on the dps meter.

    I am talking about actual players willing, able and capable to perform to in some way clear a raid or challenge mode fractal.

    OK. The topic is about how DPS meters related to toxic game environments and I've never seen anyone say they needed a DPS meter to learn how to clear raids or challenge mode fractals so ... I'm not what conversation you are having with who.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • @Obtena.7952 said:
    A smaller pool of applicants is the logical result of imposing player-made restrictions when forming a team ... so it does make sense.

    Here is why DPS meters are not good ... because they give a false sense of what a player is capable of doing. They are toxic because people use them in this way to filter people. The range of DPS for most instance content is so wide that you could literally short-man most of them, so don't pull that "not 1%, but probably 10%" stuff ... there is a SIGNIFICANT margin of DPS range that can win most encounters ... and it only gets easier to accomplish as more good gear gets released.

    Smaller pool of aplicants doesnt matter. It only increse the time you need to w8 for them. That is not an issue because you can do something totaly diferent and fun while waiting. For example I am painting/glueing miniatures. I could take bad players to raid instead but that wouldnt be fun.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 30, 2019

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    A smaller pool of applicants is the logical result of imposing player-made restrictions when forming a team ... so it does make sense.

    Here is why DPS meters are not good ... because they give a false sense of what a player is capable of doing. They are toxic because people use them in this way to filter people. The range of DPS for most instance content is so wide that you could literally short-man most of them, so don't pull that "not 1%, but probably 10%" stuff ... there is a SIGNIFICANT margin of DPS range that can win most encounters ... and it only gets easier to accomplish as more good gear gets released.

    Smaller pool of aplicants doesnt matter. It only increse the time you need to w8 for them. That is not an issue because you can do something totaly diferent and fun while waiting. For example I am painting/glueing miniatures. I could take bad players to raid instead but that wouldnt be fun.

    Well, either way, the it has a negative impact, which was my point. Smaller pool, longer wait times OR both ... the point is that artificial restrictions have a negative impact on the people that impose them. I don't really care what they are.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @knite.1542 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Most enjoy pushing their class to the max. Why should this group take in a player who performs far below this standard?

    I guess the argument is that as long as you can get the kill, you should accept any and everyone. And if you don't do that, you are toxic.

    Put it this way ... what is the difference in loot if you kill something in 3 minutes or 5? This game is not designed to reward exceptional performance anymore than marginal performance. It's black and white ... you either succeed or you don't. How you do that it up to you. But make no mistake, how you do that can have a negative or positive impact on you, depending on how you view the game and if your views are aligned to how the game is designed.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • knite.1542knite.1542 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 30, 2019

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    I could take bad players to raid instead but that wouldnt be fun.

    This right here is one of the biggest things for me.

    If I had to choose between someone that is going to perform well or someone that performs badly and then goes on the forum to say we should ban DPS meters, which person should I pick to play with?

    If you want to play at a lower level that's fine, but you shouldn't get upset (or surprised) when higher skill level players don't want to play with you. Playing with low skilled players that would rather argue than improve is pretty frustrating, and these players often hold back groups. And repeatedly wiping, or taking 2 hours to clear content that could otherwise be cleared in 45 minutes has a very negative impact on me.

    edit: Another thing that makes me think is, are lower skilled players actually happy with low DPS? If you are playing a class that can do 30k DPS but you are only doing 8k DPS, wouldn't you want to improve? Clearly there are a lot of people that would not, but I have no interest in playing with people like that.

    so you are still salty about that.

  • knite.1542knite.1542 Member ✭✭✭

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:
    And if the squad struggles with dps at easier bosses, there's usually no way they'd successfully kill some harder bosses. For ex. Gorseval, KC and CA can get really difficult if 2 dpsers play way below the average.

    I get it now. If we got rid of DPS meters, we would not be able to see that certain people are holding the squad back. That means instead of maybe just kicking a couple of people, an entire squad would just not get a kill, which would be way less toxic and everyone would be happier.

    I think I finally understand.

    so you are still salty about that.

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