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    Let's Talk About PvP Balance

    Cal Cohen.2358Cal Cohen.2358 ArenaNet ArenaNet 
    edited October 23, 2019 in PVP

    Hi Everyone,

    I wanted to clarify something from today’s blog post while also kicking off a discussion on a topic that’s near and dear to most competitive players: balance.

    It’s important to understand that as competitive handles competitive balance, we will continue to primarily use skill splits in order to minimize the impact on the rest of the game. It’s certainly true that not all issues can be addressed through splits, and we will continue to work with the skills team to make sure we are making the right changes for the entire game when splitting is not a viable option.

    Mini Balance Roadmap

    We have identified the overall power of the game has become an issue and we wish to address this in the competitive game modes.

    The next balance update is going to be smaller than usual. We want to make a handful of very targeted changes to address the biggest pain points in the current meta, but we also want to bank some time for bigger plans moving forward. For a future balance update, we are looking at major adjustments across the board. The goal is to re-establish what the overall power level for competitive modes, and then bring everything down to meet that. In true gw2 fashion, everything is on the table.

    With that said, we’re not going to nerf just for the sake of nerfing. Every change should make sense, and every change should be working toward a bigger goal. This patch is still super early in development, so I don’t want to go into too much detail, but it’s definitely something we want to talk about more moving forward. As mentioned in the blog post, we want to keep the community involved early and often when it comes to balance.

    So, for the purpose of this discussion, consider these two future updates. First for the short-term: What outliers do you see in the current meta? Then think about the big picture: What issues do you see on a fundamental level that should be addressed? Think outside of the current meta and instead about what you want the meta to look like from a power-level perspective. Keep in mind that a majority of changes should be splits, but feel free to also call out issues that you feel cannot be addressed by splits.

    This post is intentionally starting a broad discussion as a jumping off point into the new communication of the Systems team, but keep in mind that in the future our posts are generally going to be more targeted at specific issues as we won’t have as much time to handle giant discussions.

    I wanted to keep this initial post fairly short, so please ask questions about anything that is unclear. Otherwise, let’s talk balance.

    cmc

    aka cmc
    Game Designer on PvP/WvW

    Tagged:
    <13456789

    Comments

    • Alatar.7364Alatar.7364 Member ✭✭✭✭

      @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
      So, for the purpose of this discussion, consider these two future updates. First for the short-term: What outliers do you see in the current meta? Then think about the big picture: What issues do you see on a fundamental level that should be addressed?

      Hey there and Thank you for the Update.

      I have to ask, are the sentences in bold ment as questions for the players or an example of what is the Team going to ask themselves when balancing/spliting?

      Also, you say it should be focused mainly on splits, does it mean we should not expect changes to functionality of skills, but instead simple number tweaks?

      Would for example, caping might stacks at 10 be considered a split or somewhat complicated change that is for now off the board?

      ~ I Aear cân ven na mar

    • Tyga.7056Tyga.7056 Member ✭✭

      To look at the big picture is definetly important to try to make the game more skillful. Single skills shouldnt have an insane big impact in a duel, damage should get tuned down overall. It's important be succesfull, because you deserve it and you know what to do. Best example was HoT meta for this. You've had fairly long duels, which often came down to skill.

    • Serenity.6304Serenity.6304 Member ✭✭✭
      edited October 23, 2019

      Since you nerfed my main (scourge) hard for PvP, I want other classes nerfed as well. The main goal would be all classes to be viable. Viable means, that all classes have clear strengths and advantages, but this needs a risk to take. I hate to see high dmg combined with high sustain with not much effort, this is what I consider OP. I want scourge to be viable again, but since the changes will not taken back, I want to see the nerf bat. I would also be happy about an overwork for necro elites, since they are outdated and mostly not that useful for pvp.

      My priorities of nerfing classes:

      • nerf holo -> high sustain AND high dmg is not a good combination and still OP after the latest nerf
      • nerf mirage -> sustain and high condi burst
      • nerf rampage burst

      ~ Miyu Chan / Tanky Miyu / Fyora ♥

    • kiritsugu emeya.3962kiritsugu emeya.3962 Member ✭✭✭
      edited October 23, 2019

      GET RANGER GREATSWORD (auto attack) EVADE BACK! class is close to being dead for a reason

      [HCM] -jade quarry | Top 20 pvp
      youtube channel: https://goo.gl/LCoZL8

    • Prophet.1584Prophet.1584 Member ✭✭✭

      one of my favorite builds and the most fun i had in PvP was back pre-HoT running an apothecary ranger trap build that could hold a point and grind down attackers. i only had to fear thieves with high power damage but there was a tradeoff there, that power damage thief was glassy as heck but could bounce all over the map. once i got good enough there where a lot of fun fights to be had, that's all gone away now, there's too much damage floating around. You should have to choose when you build for high damage to lose sustain or high defense with low damage. all of the increases to condition damage should be looked at too, the way condi's are now it's far easier to kill an opponent by spamming conditions than using power damage.

    • MakubeC.3026MakubeC.3026 Member ✭✭✭
      edited October 23, 2019

      Hi @Cal Cohen.3527 .
      I would like to suggest you include in your OP the old CDI discussion format, where it showed people how to properly talk/ make suggestions about a subject. That way, I feel like the info had a lot of structure and was more approachable than "nerf thief", and a lot of devs praised those threads for being very valuable because of that.I tried finding it on the old forums, but it seems long gone. Perhaps you guys can dig it out.

      EDIT: Here you go.

      Suggested Idea Format

      Proposal Overview

      A short description of the proposal that is being put forward

      1. Goal of Proposal

      2. What problem are you trying to solve with your proposal

      3. Proposal Functionality

      4. How does your proposal work in regard in relation to the current design of GW2

      5. Associated Risks

      6. What risks or problems can you foresee with this proposal which you would like to have assistance on from other members of the CDI

      Please try to be as concise as feasible with your proposal.

      Suggested Discussion Approach
      No suggested format.
      Suggested Post Word Count: 200

      CDI Rules:
      1: This initiative is all about discussion.

      2: We will not be disclosing information pertaining to what is currently in development.

      3: Anger and emotion will have less impact than intelligent discussion.

      4: Together we will share and evolve design philosophies which will impact how we develop the game moving forward.

      5: Aggression and disrespect to a fellow community member or developer will not be tolerated, and in the extreme could lead to the shutting down of the initiative.

      6: The teams primary focus is work toward the development of GW2 and therefore posting of discussion and commentary may not be as frequent as you like. Please do understand that the initiative is taken very seriously by us all and that we will be reading the discussions and joining in as often as it is possible to do so.

      7: Off topic posts will be deleted.

      Please note this is not a competition, either between yourselves or the developers in regard to one up man ship. The point of this Initiative is to work together to make the game better.

      Note: We will disclose the ideas we do or don’t like as a group but we will not discuss schedules or timing around implementation.

    • Lishtenbird.2814Lishtenbird.2814 Member ✭✭

      @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
      Every change should make sense, and every change should be working toward a bigger goal.

      Does this mean the new team will be reverting the Chronomancer F5-F4 merge that still messes with my 4 years of muscle memory across different classes, and the IP change that removed multiple layers of higher-skill fun, rewarding interactions?

    • MrSannx.3654MrSannx.3654 Member ✭

      @Widmo.3186 said:
      Hello new guy, hope you enjoy your stay.

      Imo:
      -Nerf Holo damage and/or sustain
      -Nerf condi teef (CONDI teef, not whole s/d design)
      -Nerf staff teef abuse
      -Nerf DE Malicious Backstab (in which PvP game one-shotting possibility without counterplay is fine?)
      -Adjust warrior sustain
      -Think whether letting self-stacking 25 might is healthy (and how can you stack it up to 25, if you spend lots of skills to reach it, its fine, but if it starts working as passive, i dont think its fine).

      Main goals to go for at this moment.

      Yeah, the holo have a huge damage for a huge sustain ( can refil full HP easily ).
      The thief is dealing a lot of damage with condition but won't do anything if u have a FB wander in your team ( but yeah the condi thief is too much op. )
      The warrior have a huge sustain man, ther core warrior with tactics traits have a huge tons of sustain against some class ( he is good against barrier, a lot of condi cleans etc.. )

    • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
      edited October 23, 2019

      Hopefully the team can aim ensure each class has no less than 2-4 counter options, For example a massive outlier is the fact that under no such reason should mirages main and mostly only counter mostly be thieves.

      That said my main questions/statements are

      • One of the biggest things i hope will be considered is toning down boon generation and application in pvp so that necromancer is not acting as mostly the main and only counter against them, the class suffers too much design wise having a lot of its skills and tools cut short in terms of damage, effectiveness, or other mechanics for the simple sake of having to boon manage the other 8 professions in the game. It honestly feels like over the years its unique mechanic to corrupt boons has gone from a key feature to a gate keeping tool. How ever to "balance" this out its other areas suffer greatly for example (how people are now noticing how much more crazy fire brand is which is partly due to the fact that it was already strong and now their are less scourges and necros around to help manage its boons)

      In terms of boon balance i see that you wrote who a single spec self stacking 25 might would be looked at but how would this fair for classes like say warrior or soulbeats which can quickly stack 25 might on its own as well as a generous number of other boons vs necormancer which can also self stack 25 might but is pretty limited on the boon department to just hand full like might, swiftness, (perhaps some protection)

      • Will the team reconsider how effective instant cast skills like mantras should be or entertain the idea of adding a delay to project some kind of warning or tell before they fire off along side other skills.
      • Is the team going to consider toning down burst quick or be killed meta to a reasonable level. Ever since HoT which was known as a very tanky/busier meta initially the game has headed in a direction that constantly pushes a kill quick to survive playstyle which works for some professions or elite specs but not for others. It also some what negates the idea of building defensively on some professions as building offensive tends to be the best defensive measure.🤔
      • Will you plan to look at toning down overly rewarding safe rapid condition application? For example conditions that are applied constantly from say mirage (and its staff auto and ambush) or super safe application practices like the more recent dare devil thief which can apply its main damaging condition by simply using skills that evade.
      • Are you going to consider can looking at spicing up skills, traits, utilities that are heavily under used not just in this meta but in the past several metas without smashing the ones that are already in a good spot and used to make the same outdated traits/skills etc appear as a better option. In short keep the good as is (for the most part) just spice up the non used stuff.
    • Ranael.6423Ranael.6423 Member ✭✭

      @Cal Cohen.2358 said:

      I want you all to focus on splits because those are the changes we can do with no impact on the rest of the game. If a split makes sense for PvP or WvW, we can just do it. Functionality changes require larger discussions about the impact on the whole game. We are starting discussions internally about things that are not addressable with numbers changes, because there are things that need a functional change but need to change for the sake of competitive modes.

      For sPvP, have you consider a change in the stat budget through amulets? I know this puts WvW aside (or at least it would requires more work) but capping the main offensive stats to lower numbers while having the defensive ones remains the same would necessarily tone down the global power level but keep the power ranking of individual skills. A skill designed as powerful would remain powerful but would give more reaction time to the defender who could survive a bit longer. I thought it was the original idea of having separate modes : balancing the game mode by adjusting the stats and keeping a global balance for skills.

    • Sznurek.8791Sznurek.8791 Member ✭✭

      I hope for some rebalance of support classes.
      Things like druid are now pretty useless in PvP but the community clearly would be against another bunker meta.
      Support classes should have a place to noticably buff teams in 4v4, 3v3 situations. I think it will be really hard task to achieve but I believe in you devs :) .

    • verskore.4312verskore.4312 Member ✭✭

      I dont fully agree upon not nerfing for the sake of nerfing, sometimes a certain build or trait or skill is so overpowered or just too easy and strong at the same time it needs a hotnerf (dont have to destroy the certain skill/trait/build but just adjust the numbers a bit) so you can 'tweak' the specific issue in a more 'lasting' way (like condi thief).

      Otherwise things that in my opinion need 'adjustment';

      • Rampage (great mobility, pulsing stab, high damage, high health)
      • mirage (I think just nerfing some skills isnt gonna fix mirage, imo it's just the design that needs to change cus no matter what you nerf, something els will be just as overpowered on mirage)
      • FB (kind of the same story as mirage, the design itself is just stupid strong, a huge amount of strong healing skills, cc, stab etc etc which makes FB so strong so maybe redesign the entire spec? :) )
      • holosmith (way too much boonuptime and stab)

      Things that need buffs;

      • for the love of god BUFF DRUID
      • core engi
      • the useless revenant spec (it's so bad I cant even remember the name)
      • BUFF DRUID (yes ill say it again)
      • core ele

      ye that's pretty much what directly came up into my mind.
      Keep in mind that this is my own opinion so if you dont agree, well then too bad.

    • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭
      edited October 23, 2019

      @Cal Cohen.2358 said:

      @Alatar.7364 said:

      @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
      So, for the purpose of this discussion, consider these two future updates. First for the short-term: What outliers do you see in the current meta? Then think about the big picture: What issues do you see on a fundamental level that should be addressed?

      Hey there and Thank you for the Update.

      I have to ask, are the sentences in bold ment as questions for the players or an example of what is the Team going to ask themselves when balancing/spliting?

      Also, you say it should be focused mainly on splits, does it mean we should not expect changes to functionality of skills, but instead simple number tweaks?

      Would for example, caping might stacks at 10 be considered a split or somewhat complicated change that is for now off the board?

      For this post, these questions are for the players as discussion topics. They are also things that the team is discussing internally as we look toward these balance updates.

      I want you all to focus on splits because those are the changes we can do with no impact on the rest of the game. If a split makes sense for PvP or WvW, we can just do it. Functionality changes require larger discussions about the impact on the whole game. We are starting discussions internally about things that are not addressable with numbers changes, because there are things that need a functional change but need to change for the sake of competitive modes.

      Game mode-specific boon caps is something that we have talked about, but there are other ways that we can solve some of these problems. For the example of might, I'd want to look at the sources and durations of might applications. 25 might isn't necessarily a problem if it requires significant investment from multiple team members, but a single player self-stacking 25 might is something that probably shouldn't happen. There's also the possibility of splitting the effectiveness on a game mode basis.

      The effectiveness split sounds like a really great idea.

      Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

      Thief is my obsession.

    • dDuff.3860dDuff.3860 Member ✭✭✭

      Personal wishlist:

      1. Reapproach ranger's elite pets for. I.e. core ranger can use only core pets, HoT ranger can use core+HoT, PoF core+pof. Or at least rebalance Antelope (getting head toss for 12k without cast/animation is somewhat \o/
      2. Condi thief — Deadly ambition can get a stack off shafted, lotus training might get reworked into landing only 2 conditions.
      3. Binding shadow should get a visual cue
    • ventusthunder.5067ventusthunder.5067 Member ✭✭✭

      Egregiously good:

      Condi daredevil, specifically poison application, sword 2, you guys have been told this, time to take action etc etc etc. In fact, I'd go ahead and say that thief has the most viable builds right now with multiple daredevil specs, a core spec, and deadeye spec all ranging from useful to great to top tier.

      Rampage. Please for the love of god lmao. Nerf this.

      Egregiously bad:

      Dragonhunter and core guardian. Just... everything. They're horrible. Eat a dshot -> ToF -> true shot combo in wvw and I'll be dead. Eat it in pvp and I'll be down 6k health at max on a revenant. What is DH supposed to do? Also core guardian virtues are lame at best, useless at worst.

      Renegade has one ok-ish build carried by salvation being op and sanctuary rune. Otherwise it's a garbage spec.

      Scourge changes no bueno.

      Unfun to play against/bad design:

      Condi mirage and clone spam= frustrating and unfun for even the highest tier players to fight.

      Deadeye stealth and rifle leading into pistol whip spam= boring to fight.

      In addition, too many cover conditions applied by condi mirage and condi daredevil makes it impossible to cycle cleanses enough to cleanse the actual damage source- poison for daredevil, torment for mirage.

      good lord i am absolute trash at this video game

    • DoritoGod.5817DoritoGod.5817 Member ✭

      @Cal Cohen.2358 said:

      @Alatar.7364 said:

      @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
      So, for the purpose of this discussion, consider these two future updates. First for the short-term: What outliers do you see in the current meta? Then think about the big picture: What issues do you see on a fundamental level that should be addressed?

      Hey there and Thank you for the Update.

      I have to ask, are the sentences in bold ment as questions for the players or an example of what is the Team going to ask themselves when balancing/spliting?

      Also, you say it should be focused mainly on splits, does it mean we should not expect changes to functionality of skills, but instead simple number tweaks?

      Would for example, caping might stacks at 10 be considered a split or somewhat complicated change that is for now off the board?

      For this post, these questions are for the players as discussion topics. They are also things that the team is discussing internally as we look toward these balance updates.

      I want you all to focus on splits because those are the changes we can do with no impact on the rest of the game. If a split makes sense for PvP or WvW, we can just do it. Functionality changes require larger discussions about the impact on the whole game. We are starting discussions internally about things that are not addressable with numbers changes, because there are things that need a functional change but need to change for the sake of competitive modes.

      Game mode-specific boon caps is something that we have talked about, but there are other ways that we can solve some of these problems. For the example of might, I'd want to look at the sources and durations of might applications. 25 might isn't necessarily a problem if it requires significant investment from multiple team members, but a single player self-stacking 25 might is something that probably shouldn't happen. There's also the possibility of splitting the effectiveness on a game mode basis.

      im glad ur back at arenanet (:

      but yea delete condi thief

    • Conncept.7638Conncept.7638 Member ✭✭✭
      edited October 23, 2019

      As your team has said before, not what you want to hear, but still as true today as the very first time it was said: Conquest has to be heavily modified, or replaced completely, for any hope of a balanced PvP gamemode.

      You cannot equalize the efficacy of mechanics across the professions when the game mode itself provides no outlet for the majority of the games mechanics. Conquest is nothing but bunkering and backdooring; PvP needs a real objective that provides more avenues of play than that.

    • MithranArkanere.8957MithranArkanere.8957 Member ✭✭✭✭

      I'd like you to consider using Off-seasons to do some experimentation.

      For example, "Ranked" could be renamed "Experimental" during off seasons, and queuing there instead Unranked during off-season would lead to matches with experimental changes without affecting unranked.
      The experiments would bring some tweaks to mechanics, some drastic, some just for fun, in a similar way to GW1's Flux.
      The kind of stuff that would be insane to do during a season, or even for unranked and hotjoin, but that may give interesting data.

      For example:

      • Cutting by half the stats in all amulets, or even disabling amulets altogether.
      • Giving players an effect that cuts down all damage and barriers to 1/3, all healing down to 1/5, reduces attack and skill activation speed by 20% and disables out of combat healing.
      • Critical damage no longer increases Base damage, it is instead applied as a separate additive damage boost, and it's only affected by effect that increase critical damage. All other damage boosts affect only base damage.
      • Damage proration: Successive hits within a short time received while disabled or immobilized deal less and less damage, down to 1% of one's maximum health.

      ☆ SUGGEST-A-TRON

    • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

      @AngelsShadow.7360 said:
      Targeted issues:

      BUILDS REFERENCED HERE: https://www.godsofpvp.net/

      Engineer:
      *Quickness uptime (Elixir U and Kinetic Battery)
      *Stability from Elixir U (eliminates need to hit corona burst - taking away skill)
      *Overcharged Shot - little-to-no tell, hard to predict
      *Function Gyro is far too ineffective compared to other revive utilities (Blood Well, traited Geyser, etc.)

      Lots of players here are talking about damage output, this is best adjusted by limiting quickness uptime (therefore allowing the actual dodging of the skills) rather than adjusting the skills themselves.

      Ideally there is just not enough risk with the spec at least with holo.
      As you said fuction gyro is too ineffective i agree with

      Elementalist:
      *Evade uptime is too high
      *Evade animations are inconsistent with actual evade frames (beginning and end)
      *Lots of passive damage output - quite unfun to deal with

      I would argue the evade up time is fine just the condition dps is instantly melting. Considering its almost on par with its pve split and its pve split when built to condi can out ramp power dps in the first 5 seconds with burning alone is saying something. Ideally it needs to be checked so that its not applying instant melting levels of conditions. The evades should stay no reason to take those.

      Mesmer:
      *Too many cover conditions over the primary damage source (torment)
      *Too high evade uptime
      *Evade whilst CCed is silly
      *Clone generation is ridiculous - fights are incredibly cluttered

      I pretty much agree on all of this and staff autos / ambush do way too much.

      Guardian:
      *No specific issues, firebrand has reduced effectiveness due to Scourge nerf

      This is not true imo its effectiveness has increased due to the fact that its easier to upkeep boons at least when looking at its offensive variation which is becoming more popular. There is also less risk for firebrands in general no longer having nearly as many aoes that will pop up under them attempting to support or fight.

      Necromancer:
      *Corrupts in general are far too common and allow for far too many cover conditions (not enough cleanses in the game!) - swap some corrupts for boon rips.

      I agree with this but simply swapping them for rips wont solve anything the issue is alos that boon generation and application is too high across the board and necor should not be acting as the main counter to this being 1 profession having to manage 8 others boons.

      *Blood well is far too effective

      To be honest this has already been nerfed a few times its fine as is.

      *Honestly, too many teleports on necromancer in general at this point

      Seriously? What teleports? Wurm? Spectral walk with a fix'ed distance? You know this is a light armored profession with limited boons, no blocks, and extra evades right?

      Ranger:
      *Longbow is still silly burst, and far too effective at lower tiers of play

      You forgot to talk about how strong some pets become with beast mastery, several pets also need to rebalanced. Far too much use of smoke scale and not enough of every other pet. Pets need more obvious tells on when they are going to use AI cc attacks such as knockdowns.

      Revenant:
      *Too high sustained damage output
      *Too high Quickness uptime

      I feel like the quickness bit is a bit of stretch but you are correct on the damage department its burst is insane atm.

      Thief:
      *Deadeye - too much stealth uptime from stealth on dodge trait - very unfun gameplay - impossible for lower tier players to track

      I agree

      *Daggerstorm should not be an evade

      This is fine as is imo

      Warrior:
      *Too much might uptime
      *Too much sustain from might makes right - health and endurance regen

      I agree with this but might makes right is not the problem its other sources of might one of the main offenders being magebane and its rapid might application

      *Bull's Charge evade forces dodge, when there are at least 6 other high damage skills on warrior that require a dodge too

      This is honestly fine Bulls has a obvious tell

      *Rampage - too much damage and CC

      1000% agree its top tier elite in most cases its a free kill when pressed.

      *Warrior's Cunning - 50% damage increase vs barriered foes is too high especially vs classes with perma barrier like scrapper and weaver

      ^ The trait overall is too strong on both fronts not just the barrier damage increase.

      Pretty much anything i didnt call out in your list means I already agree with it to some extent but i feel you are missing some points in some places or just completely incorrect.

    • Valar Dotalis.6409Valar Dotalis.6409 Member ✭✭
      edited October 23, 2019

      The problem with condi builds isn't their power level, it's the fact that they can spam cover conditions so condition clears can't remove the 1 condition they're doing damage with. We need more skills that are guaranteed to remove damaging conditions (ie Thief's Hide in Shadows heal). That would provide counterplay to condi builds without nerfing them out of existence.

    • LucianTheAngelic.7054LucianTheAngelic.7054 Member ✭✭✭✭

      The issue with Condi thief is the S/D part of the build, not with any other part of it. D/D or P/D condi thief is not overperforming in any way and has been continuously hit with nerfs targeted at S/D Condi Thief. If you blanket nerf “Condi thief” then you’ll continue to damage other underperforming playstyles as well. My suggestion is to remove the immobilize on Sword 2 and replace it with a 2s to 3s Chill. This would result in more counterplay against S/D condi and also not really nerf Power S/D at all; more likely break even.

      Would like to see slight nerfs to Holo damage.

      Also to echo some other posters “bringing support builds up to be equal to FB instead of tearing FB down” would be good.

      As for damage power level, slightly lower than current would be fine. Let’s not end up in another bunker meta; those are never fun

    • Cuilan.7091Cuilan.7091 Member ✭

      Current State of PvP
      The amount of damage being pumped into games made the game much more enjoyable for veteran players who know how to sustain a fight, and utilize the damage within their kit. A class like Holosmith has easy tells to what a knowledgeable player can expect, playfulling countering their abilities can give you advantage in a duel or teamfight. Though certain classes like the current rendition of Condi-thief is something of the opposite.

      A conditions are rolled out in a first-in-first out basis, digging out a 20 stack of condi from a layer of Bleed, Cripple and other Conditions is rather hard for classes who don't take an arsenal of cleanses. A single thief and dictate a match by forcing players into taking a particular build that excels against the Thief, but may not or be ineffective against the other players. This does cancel out a few players in a match, but makes the experience for the players an absolute hell.

      On the flipside, a well designed Condition class like Burn-weaver is much more manageable in this meta. Not for its lack of mobility or cleaving, but its main damage source coming from a single condition; minus the large layer of conditions on top. Playing against a burn-weaver is possible (For how long varies) without overloading on the defensive while still being able to play against other classes without being deleted on sight.

      Mirage fits into the same boat as Condi thief, but in another matter. Its damage is spread out through its various conditions but the rate and application of them can shutdown majority of builds. Arcane Thievery being a thing on Core-mesmer allows for disgusting counters against other condition based classes or be a nuisance to others (Arken screaming in the background).

      To summarize, classes like Holosmiths or Soulbeasts should be the general power level of builds. Toning down the condi applications of Mesmer and Thief would bring the game down to a healthier state. Certain classes like Scourge could definitely use another pass after the last set of nerfs removed them from the meta.

      On the smaller Scale
      Coming from someone who only ever plays Engineer, particularly Scrapper (I really hope you have some kind of stats on you end about that) I can give you a good eye to what needs to brought down, and what certain aspects need to be changed. Engineer as a whole has always been the Jack-of-all-trades, and its core abilities generally reflect that aspect.

      The first skill that needs to be toned down is Elixir U. The addition of stability on the base skill made it steroids with steroids. A single push of a button can make your Engineer an auto attacking wrecking crew, with some ground to back you up as you dish out damage. The Stability on this skill should be broken up, and replaced somewhere else on the Engineer's traits. As it stands, there's no real passive stability generation on Core Engineer and it's only sources comes from U, Toss B and Thumper Toolbelt (Elixir X if you want to push it)

      Rifle has seen a multitude off buffs after the removal of the firearms trait that increased the effectiveness of it, so much that it might be at a tipping point. Rifle 4 is the biggest issue, as its instant cast utility provides little counter play against the Engineer. A point blank shot can easily decimate another player, and its personal knockback can be negated with Elixir U or Toss B. A simple casting animation will bring down this railgun to a more coutnerable level.

      Engineer also has a set of completely unusable utilities that have been untouched since launch. Gadgets such as Utility goggles can be bumped up with Resistance application and Slick Shoes could be brought back again with a small Cooldown change. Thought Turrets are another issue, an issue that might be too large to fix without a dedicated rework. Looking into their Cooldowns and Toolbelt skills would give a nice band-aid fix to turrets as the team can look for long-term solutions.

      Closing it off with Scrapper, there's still a fundamental flaw with its Barrier application, and that's to do with Barrier itself. A Scrapper would naturally disable and deny damage as its gaining barrier, but as soon as those cooldowns are up, your barrier only has about a 1 second uptime before dissipating. A flavorful fix would be giving the grandmaster traits a way to gain, or effect Barrier as a whole. Impact Savant (An already extremely weak trait) could give longer Barrier Duration (emphasize Passive Play), Kinetic Stabilizers could give barrier on disable (emphasize offensive play) and Applied Force could give barrier on the Might Threshold (emphasize burst).

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