Let's Talk About PvP Balance - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Let's Talk About PvP Balance

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  • So there is a lot to talk about, which i will probably do in future posts, for now i just want to get some sentiments out of my head:

    The overall problem since a long time is summarized in one word: Spam. Spam of boons, Spam of corrupts, Spam of CC, Spam of stab, Spam of mobility, Spam of skills in general, and so on. Since a long time this has been encouraged and rewarded, so that the border between good and bad players became very fuzzy.
    One of the best examples for this is the Mesmer Phantasm rework from Feb 2018. That day, Mesmer became incredibly spammy, rewarding for low skill levels and a nightmare to balance. Not to mention the increased visual clutter with it. For this reason i am convinced that Mesmer cannot be balanced accordingly through skillsplits, but needs changes designwise to introduce more interactive gameplay with and against it.
    The overall Spam of everything is also why support Tempest instantly fell out of the meta as soon as PoF got introduced. It couldn't keep up at all with all the damage, CC and corrupts suddenly flying around. Only Firebrand could by providing extreme boon spam paired with strong healing. To this date, despite severe firebrand nerfs and tempest power creeps, nothing has changed for this matter. Again, there have to be some design changes for firebrand to make it balancable so that there can be room for other support specs. While i'm at it, I think the recent changes to Scourge shades have been really really good for the game, although they need further tuning to finally nerf them in WvW. Sand Savant is the big offender here (surprise).

    With PoF and the way balance has been handled afterwards, a lot of kitten has piled up that needs to be addressed. In this state, i dont admire the balance devs, but i'm glad you are now willing to bring the power level down. Though i'm sure this requires a lot of things to go trough for every class.

  • Koen.1327Koen.1327 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 23, 2019

    on another note @Cal Cohen.3527 :
    I see a lot people writing "[class] is fine" or "meta is almost in a good spot", even calling for buffs meaning that they are ok with playstyle revolving around huge damages, fights ending within 5 seconds, spewing skills endlessly. I would say that this is indeed also the definition of balanced which is topic is about.
    However, in my eyes we are far from a actual balanced game and lots things need to be brought down - so this might come down to people's preferences of playstyle i guess.

    What is your vision on this part (referred as "powercreep" I guess)? How will it be possible to create a fun enviroment for everybody when opinions are so far apart? What direction are we going?
    Despite it being a relatively old game, the combat system still offers huge potential in my opinion

    edit: i guess already partially answered in your post above thnx

  • Not going to pretend that this is priority number one, but I figured this is a good place for feedback. I've put this in other threads, but spellbreaker mediations and possibly some traits could use a flavor rework.

    Currently, the Spellbreaker elite specialization has very few flavorful abilities and traits.
    1. Magebane combined with Might Makes Right is the number one reason you still run this elite specialization.
    2. Full counter is nice for some AOE cleave, defensive pressure via daze, and procing magebane (though it needs some tuning. For example, FC AOE should not proc magebane on a mesmer clone or a pet if you also hit the player)
    3. Dagger MH is a solid weapon due to its F1 and mobility and interrupt. I definitely miss dagger on core warrior, but it isn't as important as magebane or full counter

    My main gripes about the specialization are:
    1. Meditations on spellbreaker are probably the weakest and least used utility skills in the game on any class. The heal has never been very good. Break Enchantments and Featherfoot grace are just outclassed by other options. Sight Beyond Sight and the taunt one were never used.
    2. Very little of the elite spec is focused on boon removal, and the parts that were have been nerfed to the ground over the past few years.

    In my opinion, one of the selling points and flavors of this specialization is that it should be extremely difficult to classes that are boon heavy to fight. In the current state, it doesn't really accomplish that. Yeah boon removal on CC and dagger are nice, but the boon spam is so much greater than what is removed by spb.

    A few ideas that I came up with recently were:
    1. Trait similar to necro where warrior gains the boons that are removed
    2. Attacker's Insight reduced in effectiveness in PvP, but scales infinitely (aka you have as many stacks as you have boons removed in last 15s)
    3. Possibly trait or skill around removing boons puts a mini Winds of Disenchantment. For example, maybe if you remove the max number of boons removed by Break Enchantments, you put a 1-2s Winds on the enemy where they can no longer gain any boons.

    Anyway, this was just a stream of thoughts on spellbreaker flavor. Hopefully folks find this interesting/useful.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    Hopefully the team can aim ensure each class has no less than 2-4 counter options, For example a massive outlier is the fact that under no such reason should mirages main and mostly only counter mostly be thieves.

    That said my main questions/statements are

    • One of the biggest things i hope will be considered is toning down boon generation and application in pvp so that necromancer is not acting as mostly the main and only counter against them, the class suffers too much design wise having a lot of its skills and tools cut short in terms of damage, effectiveness, or other mechanics for the simple sake of having to boon manage the other 8 professions in the game. It honestly feels like over the years its unique mechanic to corrupt boons has gone from a key feature to a gate keeping tool. How ever to "balance" this out its other areas suffer greatly for example (how people are now noticing how much more crazy fire brand is which is partly due to the fact that it was already strong and now their are less scourges and necros around to help manage its boons)

    Boon uptime is definitely something on our radar, and likewise how many corrupts are needed to interact with that amount of boons. In general the thought is that everything needs to come down, including damage, sustain, boons, corrupts, cc, stability, among other things. There's a lot more to it than just blanket nerfing everything by X% but the general direction is definitely downward.

    I praise this.

    In terms of boon balance i see that you wrote who a single spec self stacking 25 might would be looked at but how would this fair for classes like say warrior or soulbeats which can quickly stack 25 might on its own as well as a generous number of other boons vs necormancer which can also self stack 25 might but is pretty limited on the boon department to just hand full like might, swiftness, (perhaps some protection)

    Professions are still going to have their strengths and weakness in terms of what boons they can generate, but the overall effectiveness is going to be lower.

    Im going to have some faith that the numbers will align properly with this that some things will inevitably have to be brought down more than others. As if everything just comes down by the same level most things technically (in my head) wont change aside from the fact that combat between a set of players or teams might take slightly more time. I think that will be on the team to gauge based on what the majority of people say here though.

    • Will the team reconsider how effective instant cast skills like mantras should be or entertain the idea of adding a delay to project some kind of warning or tell before they fire off along side other skills.

    Instant skills are one of the things that we've started discussing internally since cast time isn't something that can be split. One of our main goals for competitive is making sure that there is adequate counterplay. It's going to vary on a case-by-case basis, but cast time increases and adding delays are part of those discussions. Not as splits, but as changes that may need to happen. There's then opportunity for PvE-only splits to compensate skills for these changes.

    • Will you plan to look at toning down overly rewarding safe rapid condition application? For example conditions that are applied constantly from say mirage (and its staff auto and ambush) or super safe application practices like the more recent dare devil thief which can apply its main damaging condition by simply using skills that evade.

    How conditions are applied is a big thing that we're looking into.

    Sounds good to me personally

    • Are you going to consider can looking at spicing up skills, traits, utilities that are heavily under used not just in this meta but in the past several metas without smashing the ones that are already in a good spot and used to make the same outdated traits/skills etc appear as a better option. In short keep the good as is (for the most part) just spice up the non used stuff.

    For the future big patch, we are primarily looking at nerfs. The idea is that things that are in a good spot in the current meta are overtuned for what we want the game to be. We still want skills and traits to feel strong, but their current strength is too high. Initially we want to wait and see with a lot of things that aren't considered viable right now. As everything else shifts downward other things may become relevant without any changes. There will certainly be things that are too weak and we will revisit them in the future.

    This actually makes sense if everything is ideally going to be brought down. So I'm content with the idea that some old or underused skills might not change just yet if thats the case.

    Thanks for answering 👍

  • Avre.6401Avre.6401 Member ✭✭
    edited October 23, 2019

    I mostly play DH, Druid and Tempest so i'll talk a bit about those. I think these three are on the low end for PvP and they need changes to be on par with other classes.

    Guardian - Dragonhunter

    • Longbow needs to be looked at. LB 5 is a waste to use most of the time, and the cooldown is incredibly long for its effect. Maybe split the CD for some LB skills in PvP to be shorter?
    • LB is pretty much only used for LB 3 to push through traps, but that requires using a grandmaster trait (Heavy Light). LB 3 knockback should be baseline and heavy light should be reworked, or maybe add on decreased LB skill cooldowns to the trait.

    Ranger - Druid

    • Druid is in a poor state ever since the pet nerf. I think the -20% pet stats should be reconsidered as the pets die WAY too quickly. If the issue was that Druid can do too much damage thru pets while sustaining, maybe just -20% pet damage? Better yet, i think the -20% should be removed and provide Druid with more interesting interactions with pets w/ celestial avatar?
    • Removing the evade from staff 3 was unjustified and it doesn't make any sense. Why am I activating necro marks when i'm not even touching the floor? The evade should be given back OR decrease the cooldown for the skill
    • Staff 4 is too slow and awkward to use

    Ele - Tempest

    • Tempest is outclassed completely by Firebrand for support, and should be addressed
    • Recent changes were welcome, but I think swiftness should be added back to Gathered Focus (or to Hardy Conduit) and removed from Harmonious Conduit. Harmonious Conduit could get quickness after using an overload instead. It is difficult for the ele to keep up with teammates/enemies while overloading.
    • Staff is somewhat underwhelming and should be looked at. Staff ele is not in viable in general.

    Nerfs:
    cThief does too much spammy dmg and its difficult to cleanse, even when playing bunkers
    Mirage's should get nerfs with clone generation
    FB's viability went down with scrouge nerf, but i think their res trait is too effective and should be nerfed
    Reaper does WAY too much dmg in shroud

    Ok those are all my suggestions. I ideally want more diversity with supports in the next few seasons; fb was the only viable one for soo long and it's getting stale. Also staff is a favourite weapon of mine, and useable by a lot of professions, but it's not viable for most of them in pvp which is disheartening, so I hope for changes that allow more weapon diversity as well

  • Eddbopkins.2630Eddbopkins.2630 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 23, 2019

    Good luck to the dev that has to read and sort this thread out.
    My biggest problem is how conditions work and clearing. Once you clear a certain Condi it can come right back making clearing overall VERY ineffective. A short 1-3 seconds of immunity from the Condi you just clears should stop excessive Condi spam. If I cant use plasma bean one after another, why does a thf or a Mesmer or a sword ele get to just reapply there damage type over and over and over again even after I cleared it 2+ times?

    Mesmers and there clones. It's just to many clone production. Limit there clone production to like 2 at most on the field. If more then 2 is created then one dissapears. When I'm fighting a mesmer I shouldnt keep thinking I'm fighting 4-6 people all the time.

    I'll probably add more as time goes on

  • coro.3176coro.3176 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 23, 2019

    @DEATHsCLAW.1978 said:
    anet your pvp balance has been trash ever since you allowed conditions to be bursty..

    • They have to be bursty right now because there is so much cleanse. A condi application is never going to stick very long, so it needs to do a lot of damage before it is removed.
    • additionally, a condi build is almost as squishy as a power build, so it needs to kill its target quickly. The tanky condi amulets were removed ages ago.
    • also, every second that condi is ticking on an opponent (compared to power, which kills instantly), is a second the condi player is not capping the point. This matters a lot in a pvp game.

    I would prefer if condi was harder to remove and lasted longer, but way pvp is played, as well as the cleansing arms race demands that it be bursty.

  • Emapudapus.1307Emapudapus.1307 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    Balance atm isnt the biggest problem, but more of low effort/effective builds that are not fun to play against while being bloated with dmg or/and defensives/CC/mobility and rise of dmg/oneshots (dodging weavers, immuity mirrages, too much evades/rampage/bloated gs warriors, condi/daredevil thieves, overperforming ranger pets .... every proffesion have them).

    Since i am playing mostly necromancer PvP (mostly legend in HoT times), these things i think are bloated atm, not fun to play against or use, but necessary because of other powercreep. Also i think there also needs to be splits of traits between elite specialisations since they preform so differently and for one specialisation it can be useless and for other overpowered.:

    -GS 4 reaper: blind, cripple, boon corrupt, dmg, dark field, longer lasting; too much of everything.
    -Spectral walk: too bloated atm, duration too long or removal of condi removal.
    -reaper onslaught: too bloated, perma quickness with ferocity too much, previous trait was better. Promotes unhealty oneshot builds.
    -Master of corruption: the trait effect is too strong. For it to be balanced the original cooldowns have to be too long, extra conditions arent fun for anyone (aka nerf to heal from 24 to 30 sec and 2 conditions on heal use)
    -fear of death: bloated trait. It should give you max 50% fear duration which dont make condi duration less valuable.
    -dhuumfire: split between reaper-core-scourage.
    -death perception: should be reverted back to 50% crit (too many dmg modifiers give rise to oneshot builds).
    -corrupt boon: its not overpowered but as its design atm with many condi cleanses and many boons, its too spamy and low impact (low impact not by itself but from enemies and their cleanses or bloated use of boons)

    And things that got undeserved, unfun changes or made them useless/pointless:

    -Warhorn 5: rework made it prety useless, pointless and unfun, lower range, shorter duration, no cripple, not working with blood traitline for siphons, killing all synergy. Should be rerolled back.
    -Parasitic contagion: could be buffed little and working while in shroud or split between scourage and others.
    -consume condition: shouldnt apply condition on you
    -Plaguelands: revert to old spell except for scourage, atm its unfun and useless and in vanilla GW2 it was quite interesting spell to use.
    -Lichform: rework? I dont know whats its purpuse
    -Blood bond: it feels little weak atm, before bugfix when it also healed it was good, noone was complaining its too strong.
    -cold shoulder: (for me personaly) less dmg recieved from chilled enemies was better for me than dmg done to chilled enemies, too many +% dmg modifiers makes dmg bloated.
    -soul eater: unthematic traitline undergone many iteration now it lost its purpose and its too restrictive (like range or not working in shroud) unfun to use.
    -Axe 2: too clunky if ppl use evade or dodge or something on it. Needs quality of life improvements.
    -soul spiral: poison duration could be increased back to before nerf, would help with bruiser role little and if someone wants to go back to condi reaper.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 23, 2019

    I will just quote all sentences about mesmer from people who don't know what they talk because seeing this amout of kitten is incredible :

    @Zawn.9647 said :
    Mirage in general
    This spec can dodge while casting skills, stomping, rezzing, etc... The counterplay that exists to mesmer/chrone are almost non existant against this spec because of Mirage Cloak

    This spec have way less evade uptime than any other metabuild. It has to burn evade to damage and evade but it's not a counterpart at all, thanks for this obvious contradiction.

    @Serenity.6304 said :
    nerf mirage -> sustain and high condi burst

    It's been a long time now that mirage kill his target by pressuring during a long time, no more about condi bursting.

    @girlwars.5217 said :
    Mirage - There are too many clones, I don't have time to know which one to attack because there is too much going on elsewhere. The time it takes me to figure out the real person I am dead and the mirage has made more clones. Unless I play furiously offensively on the very start then I will not win. This defeats the point of blocking and using my skills thoughtfully.

    It's for mesmer in general and it's why people will always complain about mesmer. I can't wait for a spec without illusions thought.

    @AngelsShadow.7360 said :
    Mesmer:
    *Too many cover conditions over the primary damage source (torment)

    Guy, torment isn't the main output of mirage since they destroy it because people can't move (after nerfing confusion because people can't cast.), you are 2,3 seasons late.

    *Too high evade uptime

    No, not really, you have 2 times more vigor on your holo or other metaclass than a mirage will ever have, wake up please.

    *Evade whilst CCed is silly

    Passive stab while usual rotation is silly.

    *Clone generation is ridiculous - fights are incredibly cluttered

    Clone generation is needed because actually the only way to put some pressure is by clone ambush.

    @Falan.1839 said :
    Mirage: Even though it has seen some significant nerfs, Infine Horizon is still a problem, as it means you get a ridiculous amounts of condis from clones, especially when they are using staff, as the Staff Ambush Skill is very strong. It also kind of counters your own shatter mechanic, because just keeping the clones up for AA spam does a lot more than the shatters, so they are usually only used as lifesaver (distortion) or to finish people off

    Staff ambush = a 1 sec cast lined with average speed projectile, since they removed the immobilize in rupt you can evade it by just running.
    But yeah actually the gameplay consist of pressure by clone.

    That said :
    @anet :
    it will be good whatever change you do, to explain in the patchnote why did you do this and how did you thing it will affect the game/gameplay (even which new synergy you have in mind) because often when I read some change I don't get the why aspect.

  • Lala.8752Lala.8752 Member ✭✭✭

    every class need to be nerf.
    war: Greatsword(when was the last good warrior build without GS?), rampage
    guard: general sustain of fb is too strong
    thief: condi thief just no comment
    enge: holo still have too much damage and is a kitten cc bot, has too much stab , still too strong
    rev: too much damage
    mesmer: too much condi damage (what a dream to have a mesmer shatter meta)
    necro: maybe necro is the only balance class
    ele:weaver maybe too much sustain ? i'm not a pro ele
    ranger: pet like gazelle are too strong, sick me even nerf is too cancerous it's need a rework

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭

    One thing I’d like to see is less dominance of skills that just don’t have a counter play for a fixed set of time. Rampage has so much stability that only necro can stop it, Mesmer and thief have invulns stuff like that should be nerfed so that there isn’t a time period of 5+ secs of zero counter play. I want to see these nerfed and I think others would too. It’s just not fun to watch a warrior pop rampage followed by a 5 sec dagger storm just meant to wait it out. This happens a lot and some of these skills need tiny nerfs to change this and yes I think the nerfs could be slight- doesn’t have to delete the skill.

  • We are starting discussions internally about things that are not addressable with numbers changes, because there are things that need a functional change but need to change for the sake of competitive modes.

    It's very reassuring to hear! Hopefully we'll be hearing of it soon.

    Can we expect Chrono, Scrapper comebacks and another redesign of Deadeye? Current iteration of Deadeye promotes rather toxic gameplay (hey stealth-a-lot while dealing super-duper damage), while not being particularly effective in most of the game or fun. It's basically "more damage on same old ambushes, but with worse steal: the spec". Compared to Daredevil, which opens a whole new venue of gameplay and allows the class to fill new niches, Deadeye just gives you a kind of not very good ranged weapon with an ambush killshot. Btw, rifle on warrior could still use some love. We're OG at sniping, after all - and Gunflame was unjustly overnerfed and basically deals less damage than an axe throw now.

    There are also specs that have seen unjust overnerfing, like Druid - Firebrand is this dominant because other support options are extremely subpar, either mechanically (heal rev is straight up cumbersome to play) or in numbers-cleanses-additional boons department (Tempest could be good, but it doesn't provide enough of either).

    There's also berserker, who had a great rework which made it fun - but for PvP the "risk vs reward" is extremely... overblown, so to speak. It's basically a one-shot build that also dies in one shot, but lacks the tools those one-shot builds usually have to disengage or survive when pressured back.

    The "nerf mirage" complaint is basically "do something to IH", speaking from mesmer main perspective. Yeah, it's the only reason class is even used at this point in PvP. Yes, entire class, not spec - we have a lot of traits and entire traitlines that were simply brought down repeatedly because IH Mirage, like how Bountiful Disillusionment now gives practically nothing and feels like a minor instead of Grandmaster, and it affects the entire class rather than the meta build this change was aimed at, Chaotic Interruption, Blinding Dissipation, Evasive Mirror... It's probably worth looking into giving us other options while putting IH down. You could also look into the fact that Mirage as a spec offers nothing of real value aside from condition DPS, making it just an upgrade over Core - it never feels like a real espec. Yes, even with dodges people seem to despise so, even if realistically these dodges are more or less cosmetic. As if we never shattered during i-frames for years before, or it wasn't our phantasms hitting you while we did sword 2 (bring back 2 secs though, it still pains my muscle memory) or as if Distortion never happened. There are some beginnings of a condition bruiser in there, but those traits aren't allowed to be strong, because then they'll be used with IH and instantly be overpowered in combination. Please remember during mesmer discussions up there - our class is unlike the rest. We build chain-synergies to achieve results, and just nerfing one thing has far more consequences than the initial target.

    Chrono also super-duper needs the IP back, because there was a reason overwhelming praise was given at the decision of making it baseline for the class during that new traitline design patch. It did nothing positive for the spec whatsoever, especially PvP-wise.

    Thank you for communication, hopefully it'll happen more often from this point on. Our beloved modes need more attention.

  • Dreddo.9865Dreddo.9865 Member ✭✭✭

    Each class should have a role in the respective mode (sPvP, WvW). So more and better class specialization against the dubious 'diversity' we have been getting so far.
    Each class design should have **at least **one hard counter and in general all play styles should have a way of being countered.
    No cheesy builds (one shot, perma stealth, tons of condition stacks in seconds, etc.) so that the mode becomes more friendly and attractive to beginners.
    No cheesy skills and utilities you can just spam - make people think twice before using them. I would go even further increasing all cds by a % of time.
    No to the absurd boon self stacking and less boon generation in general. Make boons mean really something.
    Classes' balance around mobility, sustain, dps. You can't have it all.
    Bring classes' dps output closer between expansion like core, HoT, PoF.
    Promote and think around team effort when designing classes, skills, utilities, etc.

    Finally more attention to the PvP mode from a developer's point of view. It's really surprising maybe the best thing in gw2 being neglected and priority given to PvE content when all the top MMO games are PvP orientated for the past few years. And GW2 has the best PvP design by far among all MMORPGs (IMHO).

    PS - it was about time a specialized team with PvP knowledge getting into things. Hoping for the best.

  • IMHO, a big point that has been annoying in pvp over the last few years (since HoT), is the dominance of CC. Everyone is loaded with a bunch of CC. It's just not fun. However, it's probably not possible to simply nerf cc access as it would require quite big changes across all specs, seriously limit build options, and badly conflict with pve balance (afaik you don't want skills to have a different behavior in different modes, so simply removing cc from pvp would lower cc access in pve - an area of the game that is now full of breakbars that are balanced around easy cc access - even in most solo content).

    I think there are 2 ways to make it better in pvp, though I doubt any of them would be consensual

    First one : bring Stability back, in place of the boon that currently usurps the name and icon of stability.
    Second one : change cc mechanics slightly so that they behave like they did in gw1 : it was not possible to stun someone who was already stunned. You can chain the cc's but it requires more skill, it requires actually timing your actions instead of spamming it on target until it's out of dodges/stunbreaks. I was disappointed in 2012 when I realized that this clever mechanic was not kept in gw2.

  • I know it has already been mentioned and you seem aware, but I hope the goal is near-Pre-HoT fight duration.

    I say duration specifically because it is the core of my feeling towards the current state of sPvP rather than "survivability", which is more vague.

    Frankly, I don't like present sPvP very much. However, it used to be my primary gamemode to play (before HoT (sure there weren't raids yet...)).
    These days, it's just Nuke someone done or get nuked. Hope you press all those buttons fast enough, almost irrespective of order.
    Casted tournaments in recent years are impossible to follow, everything just explodes and is over and you're like 'boy I hope these casters actually understood what happened'. If you're a returning player (i.e. me) or someone new, this is a terrible experience. It is horrible for learning anything. Not good for learning = not good for fun.
    I long for a possibility of fights actually taking more than 10 seconds, where there is a push-shove back-and-forth, some uncertainty, some surface area in which to get the upper edge by playing well in a continued way, not just that upfront burst every single time. Actual fights of some notable length.

    I'm hopeful. We know folks over at Anet have the capacity to make things very fun. Do us proud, please.

  • Daishi.6027Daishi.6027 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 23, 2019

    I don't think quickness traits and other passive quickness gains are healthy and should be rained in.

    Mob mentality balance needs to go. Justification for balance should be based on hard facts and numbers not what the most people are complaining about.

    Burst builds should be reliably punishable. Burst combos should require resources (be it lengthy utility cool downs, or mechanics, or whatever) but the cooldowns spent to land such attacks should also be the same used to escape. eg. If a deadeye fails to kill you, they shouldn't be allowed to safely and endlessly retreat into stealth. This should run out by the second wiff.

    Less double standards. If one build similar to the example above is safe and can get away with bursting and escaping, builds that cannot do so yet occupy a similar, or same archetype/role/slot should either be buffed to match it in some reasonable way by giving it a substantial strength that is compatible (for example DE vs DD, one can stealth a lot more and the other can evade a lot more, this is a substantial on par strength). Or the well performing build be nerfed to match the other standard. Not saying all builds need to be the same, but there needs to be some level of equivalency of "effectiveness"

    Sustain on a whole needs to eventually run out. I get that may be antithetical to their job, but it is unhealthy for conquest for this to exist. No build should reliably, passively, and easily sustain a point 1v1 or 2v1. I don't mind stalemates, but there should be a standard where through skill based play people should reliably be pushed off a point.

    Condi damage needs more active skills. so that means one big 3/4 - 1 sec cast to condi bomb, not just autos with mirage clones and infinite horizon.
    Damage should always come from major cooldowns, that are reasonably avoidable, and have a solid cooldown duration.

    Speaking of Condi mirage, the damage should return to the shatters or weapon skills that aren't the auto attack + infinite horizion.
    On that note Power Mirage needs to be buffed, and it's burst (if you were to minus quickness, and maybe rein in mantras) is a shining example of fair burst, without a ton of options after whiffing.

  • Zagerus.8675Zagerus.8675 Member ✭✭✭

    While I can't give thoughts on high level team play (I don't do tournies) I can share my experiences with SoloQ. For deciding what is really powerful in the current meta for SoloQ I try to look at it through the lens of how well any given build can kite when you have players of even mechanical skill fighting each other. Then, how much influence does the build have on the outcome of any given scenario (either a 1v1, 2v1 or a mid fight ect.) and then on the match overall, when it is played at an apex level. And then, how much effort needs to be exerted to reach this "apex" level of play with the build.

    A build that requires more effort to reach the "apex" tends to reward continuous, active, efficient play and encourages the player to conserve resources until clutch opportunities arise. This effectiveness tends to come with the trade-off of punishing players for just spamming and being lazy. These kinds of builds are excellent because they offer a path for players to get invested in the build and allow you to practice to get better with it over time. Some builds that share these traits come to mind: Strength Spellbreaker, Longbow/GS Soulbeast, D/P Thief, Support Firebrand, Holosmith, Power Rev just to name a few. All of these builds have tools to help carry a SoloQ ranked match when played correctly. Yet, they severely punish players if they get too lazy or too aggressive at any given time. You have to walk a fine, skillful line to make them work.

    I can't say the same for a majority of the condi builds that are a part of the meta right now. Most of them are very oppressive offensively (in any given scenario, whatever matchup) for not much effort or setup. They offer little room (still some but not much) to catch them out. Most opportunities to seize upon player mistakes are washed away by the sheer influence that these builds have on the fight. And for new players, the incoming bursts aren't apparent at all. A popular example would probably be condi Mirage. Condi Firebrand is another. After a while you will start to feel how they are rotating through their bursts - because you have to or you'll get caught out - but clearly visible queues would be handy, especially in messy mid-fights.

    That said, I personally have no problem with condition builds having a viable spot in competitive play. I appreciate having that condi on my team to hardcounter a rev on the other team. I wouldn't wish for condi Mirage to ever be nuked out of the meta. I just wish these builds weren't so oppressive or so easy to reach the "apex" of the build to the point where it is the build itself that had the most impact on the outcome of the fight, rather than player skill swinging the fight.

    If you watch videos of GW2 PvP from 2012, and then you go watch a monthly tourny match from 2019 you can clearly see how much the pace of the game has changed. The combat right now is an insane, edge-of-your-seat experience when you fight alongside and against people of equal skill. It's very addicting. I would beg you guys to use caution when deciding how much you are going trim things back in competitive play. If the pacing must change and slow down a bit, please allow us to make clutch plays via other means than just damage, mechanical or otherwise!

  • morrolan.9608morrolan.9608 Member ✭✭✭

    Biggest problem of spvp is how stale it is with only 1 real game type, maps with slightly differing mechanics do not add the variety needed.

  • ace.6520ace.6520 Member
    edited October 23, 2019

    Current meta
    I'm an average player from Gold/Plat with ambitions to reach the very top. I play builds that top players play on streams or take them from GodsOfPvp website. My experience is that there are builds which are very impactful and don't require a lot of knowledge or skill. There are players who just play a specific combo and have high impact in the game. There are also builds which can stall a node indefinitely and there seems to be no key, no knowledge and no amount of skill needed to possibly defeat them.

    Fundamental Issues
    * A class build has more impact than skill of a player.
    * There is not enough teamwork or synergy between classes in the game.
    * Classes aren't complex enough and the fun of playing them is removed at the cost of balance (Blinding Powder nerf removed lots of potential for great and mindful plays; Swipe negatively impacted the most enjoyable Dagger/Pistol weapon set for Daredevil).
    * A skilled player cannot shine and go for a plays that would make them recognizable.
    * There is only one competitive game mode. I wish there was Capture the Flag. It would open up a whole new world of competitive experience.
    * You can only solo or duo queue. A team of five cannot practice without going through too much hassle.
    * The ability to communicate with players and to learn by understanding to their needs and your mistakes is limited to salty chat window.
    Note: I believe that wintrading in higher ranks would be less effective if the gameplay was more skillful.

  • On a high level, and without wanting to go into specific details here, I believe that the overall power level in PVP needs to be toned down quite a bit.

    Damage Output, Boon Uptime, and healing effectiveness have all become too high, in my semi-experienced opinion. As a result, fights have become more "spammy" where you just throw all your skills into a teamfight. The overall dynamic of a conquest game has shifted towards snowballing and zerging, while other tactics (i.e. the roles of sidenoders) have been pushed into the background. The ability to swiftly move across the map (blink, ports and so on) feels a little overtuned as well.

    I would like to see a shift back to allow more tactical gameplay, and less steamrolling, if that makes sense.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Holosmith

    Traits/Utilities/Healing Skills/Elites
    1. Healing Turret's cast time needs to be increased to 1s minimum. 3/4s base with perma quickness is basically impossible to reactively interrupt. Having frequent access to stab coupled with an extremely powerful, reliable heal provides Holosmiths a very easy way to consistently top themselves off. This should be looked at.
    2. Lock On (the reveal trait) should not be DOUBLE proc 12s reveal on a 25s cd that gives fury and applies 20 stacks of vuln.
    3. Kinetic Battery needs to have it's quickness and super speed duration reduced to 3 seconds and increase the maximum stacks to 10 so that it takes Holos 14 seconds to cycle this trait rather than 7 seconds.
    4. Heat Therapy needs it's healing cut to 1/3 of it's current value (from 65 health per unit of heat lost to 22). You nerfed Rugged Growth (another minor trait) on ranger because it was healing around 600 hps on MENDERS amulet while we had protection.
      • Heat Therapy provides a constant 652 healing per SECOND while at max stacks and causes Vent Exhaust to heal for 800 health every time they dodge. Keep in mind, this insane healing does not require ANY healing power investment asides from the (negligible) amount received from Leadership Runes.
      • In other words, with permanent vigor and Heat Therapy, a Holo can heal up to 9000 health every 10 seconds (6520 passively through Heat Therapy, dodging 3x = 2400 healing with Vent Exhaust).
      • This does NOT include healing from Healing Turret. The health regen on Tools Holo is absolutely insane. It's literally more than a warrior's Healing Signet + max stacks of Adrenal Health (the latter of which requires the warrior to land their burst skills) which only heal for a combined 743 hps in comparison.
    5. Invigorating Speed should give 3 seconds of vigor when gaining swiftness on a 10 second ICD. In it's current state, it gives Holos permanent vigor with very little investment.
    6. Toss Elixir S needs it's stealth duration reduced to 3 seconds. The current iteration gives the Holos a LONG 6 second stealth every 30 seconds that is almost impossible to prevent. This single toolbelt skill lets them reset extremely frequently.
    7. Elixir U needs it's cooldown increased from 40s base to 50s.
    8. Prime Light Beam needs a louder sound cue and needs to have the animation cancel bug fixed (the beam animation shows but doesn't do damage).
    Photon Forge
    1. Holo Leap needs it's cooldown increased to 4 seconds. Spamming this ability gives the Holo incredible amounts of mobility and damage on a short, 2 second cooldown leap finisher. It moves them 450 range on a 2s cd. In 10 seconds, this enables the Holo to move 2250 range on top of their already (near permanent) super speed uptime with Kinetic Battery.
    2. Corona Burst should apply 2 stacks of stab on the initial pulse with 3 targets max. Currently, it is 1 stack per target hit (max 5) on each pulse. This single skill can give the Holo up to 10 stacks of stability for 4 seconds every 6 seconds and requires 2 defensive skills to avoid.
    3. The fact that a Holo can transform and still retain access to ALL of their utilities/toolbelt skills/healing/elite is very strong but disabling them or even just the toolbelt skills might be too much(?).
    4. Light Strike -> Bright Slash -> Flash Cutter need their ranges reduced from 240 to 130. They are nearly twice as long as the ranges of (every?) auto attack chain in the game on top of the fact that they can out-trade nearly everything in melee range with them as well.
    Weapons
    1. Hip Shot needs to have a 1s cast time up from .84s. This skill is a laser beam when the Holo has quickness (which means all the time) and the cast time is so quick that literally tracks a target that entered stealth for 2-3 shots.
    2. Net Shot's immobilize should be reduced to 1 second and the cast time increased to 1/2 seconds.
    3. Blunderbuss needs a longer cast time.
    4. Overcharged Shot needs a longer windup and animation similar to a ranger's Point Blank Shot.
  • lvis.3824lvis.3824 Member ✭✭

    Something to consider in general:

    • don not nerf or buff any trait or Utility by more than 30% EVER !
    • buff the unused traits / Utils before nerfig the traits & Utils that are considered to be META.
  • Zlater.6789Zlater.6789 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 23, 2019

    For me, the real problem is understanding why exactly I won or lost a particular engagement. This comes down largely to tells and the display of information. And I think the game does a really bad job of communicating this information, which leads to fairly mixed opinions of PVP balance and fairly unenjoyable gameplay.

    Let me explain by using 2 opposing examples of losses.
    1. Being denied a stomp by a heralds chaotic release. While yes it's a powerful skill, there is 0 doubt about it's use. If you get hit by this skill, you know for sure that it is probably your fault. That thing has a 10 minute animation and it pays off big time for landing it. When it's used properly, the person using it is pogchamp and even often the guy getting hit can't help but to respect the heralds timing and gameplay decision.
    2. Going down in a team fight to plaguelands. This is the opposite, here is a skill in PvP that's hard to see and easy to disguise. If you get hit it's really hard to see what killed you, even the death recap only shows the conditions that killed you and not the reason why you got conditioned to begin with. After a while you'll know it when you see it, and it's not a hugely popular skill in the current meta. But it's a great example of a skill with a "cancerous" design. This to a new player, I have no doubt would cause an immense amount of frustration.

    "Nobody likes dying to cheese"

    Condition applying skills are all mostly great examples, but it's not just condis. Poor communication can extend to boons even. A decapitate might not kill you, where a decapitate with 25might would.

    And yeah I know that a lot of people are gonna say "but boons are l2p." But I say there is a very serious argument for the lack of clarity of boons. Imagine this:
    A thief +1's you from stealth and you go down, somehow he has 25 might but you don't have time to click on his bar in all of the panic.
    A thief +1's you from stealth and you go down, but this time when he does it there is a big yellow might symbol over his head that acts like a warning "hey I have a LOT OF MIGHT IM GONNA HURT"

    The feedback in both instances would be vastly different. In the first you'd be receiving feedback on the forums along the veins of "stealth op, nerf backstab." In the second case, if you get feedback at all, might go along the veins of "where the hell did this thief get 25 might from, pls help somebody."

    Yeah, some things might add to the visual noise of the game. But if we can get it just right- so the important information is toned to be more clear and the less important information less clear, it would be far better. 25 might is a huge game changer, and a little more information other than a symbol on a status bar would be pretty helpful.

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭

    To be honest I believe alot can be done by simply looking at boon durations and the runes that extend them.

    For instance, boons should be powerful short term effects - nothing that's up permanently or easy to stack on your own.

    As for the runes that give 50% durations, shaving them to 20% total would be more than enough in sPvP. Also see if rune of Leadership can convert 1 less condition whilst having 15% boon duration instead, to open up for other options.

    Since gearing for concentration now forces you to make sacrifices, the best way to balance atm is to look at base durations - anything above 5/10 seconds depending on effect should raise a flag, but keep combo field durations in order to increase their relevance.

    Small changes can also be made to some boons, like vigor lasts shorter but grants 10 endurance upon application or regen that heals for 3x the first tick. This better rewards players for proper usage and timing than just having it up as often as possible, however not at all necessary as long as all base durations are looked at and balanced.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Spellbreaker

    Traits/Utilities/Healing Skills/Elites
    1. Magebane Tether should flip the Spellbreaker's Burst skill upon triggering this trait on an enemy. It should now be an active effect that the player can manually activate to pull their target but the tether should also break when the enemy moves out of 600 range (possibly increase the tether range to 700 or 750?). This change would give Spellbreakers an active interrupt and introduce counterplay other than stability/stunbreak similar to other chain/pull skills. Currently, it forces the tethered enemy to remain in range of the Spellbreaker's attacks and makes it much, much harder for classes that cannot evade/tank multiple, heavy hits to survive.
    2. Bull's Charge should no longer evade. Or, keep it as an evade but reduce the range from 900 to 600.
    3. Rampage does WAY too much damage. On top of lowering the damage, remove the pulsing stability, 50% damage reduction, and 33% reduction to movement impairing conditions.
    Weapons
    1. Arcing Slice's damage does NOT currently scale with adrenaline. A full 3 bar adrenaline Arcing Slice only grants additional fury uptime. This is an issue on Spellbreaker when they gain frequent access to a full strength, high damage Burst skill. Add Burst levels 1 and 2 with the current damage remaining as the level 3 Burst.
      • Also, a 1/2 second cast time is EXTREMELY quick on a skill that can hit for 7k in an AoE. With quickness, the cast time becomes .375s which is almost blindingly fast and near-impossible to react to unless you have perfect ping and very fast reaction times. Increase the cast time to 3/4s to match the other Burst skills.
    2. Breaching Strike vs. Aura Slicer
      Their animations are nearly identical. Unfortunately, Breaching Strike is a very important skill to avoid and Aura Slicer isn't. Please add a flash of light or some other visual tell for people to look out for. Currently, the only way to tell them apart is by the direction in which the dagger swings. Breaching Strike is an overhead attack while Aura Slicer comes from the side. However, the difference is minimal and could definitely be improved.
  • Ovark.2514Ovark.2514 Member ✭✭✭

    Here are a list of traits and skills which are barely if ever used and where just changing the "numbers" isn't going to make them worth or fun to use. In some cases these traits or skills would be so un-fun and passive to fight that if they ever WERE useful it would be damaging to the game mode. Better to change instead of buff. Not going to go through every class here, just the ones I play most.

    Warrior:
    Utilities: All Banners except the elite. Throw Bolas. Sundering Leap.
    Weapon Skills: Mace offhand (mainly skill 4). Longbow. Sword offhand.
    Traits: Wounding Precision, Blademaster (was useful when it gave crit), Deep Strikes, Bloodlust (make Arms as useful for power as for condi please). Double Standards. Vengeful Return. Empower Allies. Armored Attack. Dead or Alive

    Ranger:
    Utilities: Every NON-EXPANSION pet except for: Saimoth, Wolf, and Birds. All Spirits, Glyph of the Stars.
    Weapon Skills: Dagger 2
    Traits: Invigorating Bond. Eternal Bond, Oppressive Superiority, Essence of Speed (just remove ICD), Natural Stride, Cultivated Synergy.

    Elementalist:
    Utilities: Conjure Weapons. Summoning Glyphs. Unravel
    Weapon Skills: Eruption.
    Traits: Power Overwhelming. Pyromancer's Puissance. Bolt to the Heart. Serrated Stones, Soothing Power. Stop Drop and Roll. Bountiful Power. Elements of Rage. Lucid Singularity.

    Thief:
    Utilities: Skelk Venom. Distracting Daggers.
    Traits: Collateral Damage. Signets of Power. Instant Reflexes.

  • Zenix.6198Zenix.6198 Member ✭✭✭

    Not sure about the short term goals, but long term I have a few thoughts.

    1) Address Powercreep
    Obviously easier said than done. Im aware that this can be an excruciatingly long process (identifying the issues -> Implementing changes that, preferably, don't break the rest of a specifiy build -> monitoring the implemented changes -> finetuning ...etc.etc.). But, personally, I think a look at the current relevancy of boons might be much more effective way to go about it. Splitting boon effectiveness by gamemode would address a multitude of powercrept mechanics all at once without negatively affecting overall playstyles and viability of certain specs in other gamemodes (since splitting trait functionalities apparently is not desired).
    Some examples: Reduced statgain from might or reduced effectiveness of stuff like vigor, fury, quickness etc.etc.

    2) Reducing "spammy" gameplay
    As of the last time I played this game (pre the latest balance patch), the amount of spam really was atrocious still.
    The lack of key abilities makes combat feel dull and shallow. While I prefer fast-paced combat over global-cooldown based combat, currently it feels just too spammy.
    While in vanilla PvP, you had a significant strategic advantage over your opponents if you kept track of their key-abilites and exploiting their downtimes, currently its just about training the other guy down by cycling through all your high-impact skills. And you basically have no down-time or windows of opportunities for counterplay between those cycles. Low-cooldowns on high impact skills are part of the issue here, but whats even more problematic imo is the problem of the following:

    3) Reduce skill-bloat
    Some skills and traits do way too many things all at once. Skills like Reposting Shadows (Revenant: shiro utility) or Binding Shadow (Deadeye Utility) offer way too much value. With the "sandboxy" trait design of some traits, some skills get really bloated and offer too little counterplay to them. Getting hit by a Magebane Tether for instance can decide the outcome of a duel on its lonesome (with the synergy between might makes right for instance). Getting hit by skills like these and dying because of it, simply feels frustrating and "cheesy".....but "just dodge it 4head" am I right?

  • I really appreciate this dialogue between community and developer, thank you for taking the time!

    In terms of outliers, I think it's Holo, FB, and condi DD.

    Holo because it feels like the objectively best side-noder/duelist class.
    •Tons of sustain compared to damage
    •Too much protection uptime, which is a huge boon.
    •Rifle 4 comes out too fast and has too big an impact.
    •Elixir U does too much. Stunbreak, Quickness, Stability, Might, and Vigor(Which gives 10% damage) all with one button press. Losing the Stability would be a good start.
    •Elixir X give engineers rampage on a potentially shorter CD than Warrior.

    FB because it feels like objectively the best support class.
    •Too much Stab, protection, and aegis spam.
    •Symbolbrand is incredibly unfun to fight, even more without unblockables/boon strip.

    And Condi DD because; imo, any class that spams a bunch of conditions while being virtually untouchable is pretty not fun to fight against.

    As a warrior main i'd really like if our entire class's identity wasn't attached to a single skill(Rampage the class basically). I'd like to see defense come back as an equally viable alternative to strength too. Maybe see some updates to the middle tree in defense, and give it something that makes it more sustainable compared to other classes trying to accomplish the same thing.

    A bit confused on what is meant by fundamentals, but i'm sure it just means balance here. Another thread like this that would allow us to delve into fundamental problems with PvP in general would be great though, and overall a lot more constructive. Getting serious with balance is a great start, but I believe that's sort of like a band-aid solution.

    When it comes to balance, i'd like to see every class be equally viable for their respective role. IE Druid should be a more equally viable side-noder to Holo, Tempest should be a more equally viable alternative to FB. I understand it's impossible to balance perfectly, but what would be better is having people be able to pick these underplayed classes and not have their teammates feel like they're playing at a straight-up disadvantage. I really think buffs are better than nerfs tbh.

    Remove Ranked DuoQ pls&ty

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I know this is mostly about balance, but I would like to second this comment:

    @morrolan.9608 said:
    Biggest problem of spvp is how stale it is with only 1 real game type, maps with slightly differing mechanics do not add the variety needed.

    The spvp game mode needs more meat. Please consider looking at competitors or even GW1 for new possible game modes. Ideally with moving away from the 5v5 concept as to add some more possibilities and variety.

    The WvW GvG scene is still very active. There is no reason why this format could not be adapted to some extent for pvp with a 10 man player count for pvp guilds or contests. Maybe even go as far as reintroduce something similar as the old Tournament Battles with 3 teams fighting for the win.

    Final note, the latest actions against a spvp exploiter lead to some hope that there might be some reevaluation of certain accounts. There is still an issue with certain accounts playing thousands of games per season (let's not call them bots but rather players who need no sleep) as well as match manipulation. Maybe an occasional intervention here would keep certain abuse in check.

  • Itz Jay.8941Itz Jay.8941 Member ✭✭✭

    Make rampage reveal holosmith, being able to rampage from stealth is just stupidly overpowered.

    Nerf condi mirage hard, this spec has so much evasion it should be pushed more into playing power or hybrid, the same goes for condi theif, it's just not fun to play against, its braindead easy and everyone swaps to boring counters. They ruin the gameplay with low population being the issue here and lower tier players not understanding not to push into them. We have to account for the population here to bring some health back to the game. Staff bunker theif is the same as well really it's just so boring to fight and play.

    SB needs looking at, rampage is very overpowered for finishing, even just a slightly longer cast time would help here I think. It's not fun to get an SB down to nothing knowing he has nothing but rampage only for him to get a lucky LoS and pull it off.

    Firebrand is just not healthy for the game it forces stacking up and defeats the object of conquest IMO, heal tempest had so much more counterplay to it, but it is a really cool class and if everyone knows what they are doing you can rotate around it and still enjoy a close game. So im undecided on whether it should be touched again.

    Scourge even though it is nerfed to the ground its worth saying it is just the same as firebrand really, the two together make things so boring, really they should be pve specs only in my opinion.

    Revert portal changes to mesmer or trait the old range into something? We need some counter play back in the game. I also think steal range should be reverted or trait it back into d/p so theif actually has a fun build to play again.

  • Good to hear official head-up regarding PVP!

    1) Proposed Guardian changes:
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/89718/feedback-guardian-random-tweaks-buffs
    2) UI things (QoL):

    • allow to show/hide player's Names/Titles/Profession Icons above their heads
    • visual FXs from skills are cluttering screen - can't see what's happening - consider further downgrading them to more 'transparent' variants (lowspec?)
  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 23, 2019

    Soulbeast/Ranger

    Traits/Utilities/Healing Skills/Elites
    1. Troll Unguent should have it's cast time increased from 3/4s to 1s. Currently, it is too fast to reliably interrupt even though it's the strongest Healing skill rangers have access to.
    2. "Sic 'Em!" should not be a 25 to 40% damage increase for 10 seconds. Lower the duration to 6 seconds (matching the reveal) and change the buff to simply grant the merged Soulbeast 300 additional Power, Precision, and Ferocity (600 of each stat for the pet). This reduces it's effectiveness when scaling with other % damage increases.
    3. Loud Whistle should also reduce the cooldowns of merged Beastmode skills. Currently, it has no effect on the player unlike the other minor traits in Beastmastery.
    4. "We Heal As One!" received a 4 second cooldown increase (from 16s to 20s) a while back to reduce the boon uptime. However, the healing was never increased to compensate. Previously, the 6520 base heal every 16s resulted in a eHPS of 407.5. This got reduced to 326 eHPS compared to Troll Unguent's 424.8 eHPS. Please increase the base healing on WHAO to 8150 (407.5 * 20) to match the previous amount.
    Beastmode
    1. Swoop's (Bird Beastmode) cast time should be increased from 1/2s to 1s. Greatsword's Swoop takes nearly 2 seconds to fully cast and Gazelle Merge's Charge has a cast time of 1s. For some reason, the Bird Merge Swoop is exceptionally fast and lets the Soulbeast cover a lot of ground in a short period of time. Also, potentially increase the cooldown from 10 seconds to 12 seconds to match Gazelle Merge's Charge.
    Weapons
    1. Ranger Greatsword's skill ceiling got absolutely dumpstered last patch with the removal of the evade on the autos and Crippling Throw. Please add them both back and have Crippling Throw flip to Counterattack Kick when we block an attack in melee range. You could even remove the evade on the Counterattack Kick. It's not very useful. The point of the knockback is to decap in sPvP but if we use it to evade an attack then the knockback can get wasted a lot of the time into stability or blinds.
    2. Stalker's Strike should have it's range increased from 250 to 600. This change alone would make OH dagger useful (like back when Off-Hand Training existed).
  • Einlanzer.1627Einlanzer.1627 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 23, 2019

    There are two big-picture balance issues IMO -

    First - Condi is poorly designed in a way that leads to different problems in both PvE and PvP. Increasing the durations to make them more like EQ dots was a bad direction to go in. GW2 has fast-paced combat, so Condi should be short duration with moderate damage output. Its effectiveness should mostly be tied to target armor instead of fight duration or the prevalence of cleanse/resist mechanics. Condi gameplay is too capricious and clutchy. Condi needs to be "nerfed" without being nerfed. Nerf durations (and therefore total damage application), make Resistance reduce condi damage by 50% instead of negating it altogether and increase the availability of cleansing while reducing its power (i.e. set stack limits or other ways to narrow the scope on them). This would significantly reign in the power creep we've seen but also allow condi to play better in casual open world play. It would also decrease the over-emphasis on building around condi cleanse in PVP and allow for more experimentation.

    Second - there's just too much boon application flying around. Too many skills and traits grant them and they are too shareable. Some, like resistance, are also just OP as kitten. You should not be running around constantly with 20 stacks of might and 100% fury uptime. unless you have a heavy dedicated support build. Be more conservative with Boons.

    An ancillary item is that I would probably just increase base health, Vitality scaling, or both modestly.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 23, 2019

    Druid


    (This is from a thread I made a month ago)


    Druids have been underperforming in the meta lately. Following the many, consistent nerfs this ranger elite specialization has received in the past, we felt that it needed to be reviewed and brought back in line with design standards. These changes are aimed at reducing the strength of a lot of the problematic skills whilst retaining the old playstyle that made Druid fun to begin with. Underperforming/low impact skills have also been reworked in order to feel meaningful and less passive.

    Staff
    • Astral Wisp (staff 2): This skill now deals damage over time (similar to Binding Blade, GS5 on Guardian). Base 400 damage per second, 5 second duration.
    • Ancestral Grace (staff 3): Reduced this skill's cooldown from 20 seconds to 12 seconds. Removed the 5s recharge reduction when healing an ally.
      (Do not add the evade back on)
    • Sublime Conversion (staff 5): This skill is now a ring instead of a line.
    Celestial Avatar
    • Celestial Avatar: Reduced this skill's cooldown from 20 seconds to 10 seconds.
    • Lunar Impact: Reduced daze duration from 1.5 seconds to .25 seconds and now removes 2 boons on hit.
      (Or, it would be really cool if it floats enemies for .25 seconds. Just like, ya know, being on the moon)
    • Natural Convergence: This skill can now be cast while moving at a reduced speed (similar to Whirling Wrath, GS2 on Guardian).
    Traits
    • Celestial Shadow: This trait no longer grants 3 seconds of stealth. Instead, it grants 2 seconds of alacrity to yourself and nearby allies.
    • Ancient Seeds: Removed internal cooldown from this trait. Successfully hitting an enemy with a crowd control now immobilizes them for 1s.
    General
    • Seed of Life: Increased the amount of conditions cleansed from 1 to 2. This skill no longer blinds and the detonation time has been reduced to 1s.
    • Druid: The base attributes of pets are no longer reduced by 20%.

    Celestial Avatar Rework

    If Anet were to redesign the elite spec, I'd love it if Lunar Impact and Natural Convergence were kept, and the other 3 skills reworked with the same theme in mind.
    Here are my suggestions:

    1. Cosmic Ray: This skill now has the appearance of a wider, blue Solar Beam. It now slows and chills enemies for 1 second on the 3rd pulse. Base damage has been increased from 98 to 196 per pulse and hits up to 3 targets (similar to Split Surge, ambush skill on GS for Mirage).
    2. Seed of Life: This skill now grows a random Spirit on detonation (not counting Water Spirit or Spirit of Nature).
      (I think it would be super neat because it encourages Druid's to stay in CA rather than cast 2 skills and leave. It also means we could spend 12 seconds of casting Seed of Life to have Frost, Sun, Storm, and Stone Spirits up. So, this not only reintroduces spirits to PvP, but also gives Druids a reason to finally run Nature's Vengeance.)
    3. Rejuvenating Tides: This skill now creates a 240 radius, mobile water field around the player on activation that heals for 2700 health, grants 2 seconds of alacrity (or 4 seconds of protection), and partially revives nearby allies (7% per second, 4 second duration). It is no longer channeled.
  • OutOfOrder.3719OutOfOrder.3719 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 23, 2019

    If you really want to find out what is wrong with PvP, an actual ArenaNet employee should actually play PvP more than 200 games a season.

    Track and give dishonor to players that AFK in match’s and have a pattern of frequently doing this. Players should be rewarded for playing and should not profit at all if they go AFk and ruin matches for their team.

    Do more investigations on potential win trading and more frequent botting bans. If a player has more than 1,000 games a season, that account should be flagged for review to determine whether botting or other illegal programs are being used.

    In fact, an ArenaNet employee really should discuss how many accounts were suspended on October 19. The player base will applaud you if you listed how many accounts were actually banned. Of course, don’t release the identity of who was banned, Just the Number of accounts that were banned.

    Nerf Rampage on warrior, and nerf Holosmith into the ground it as it is overpowered in just about every category.

    When you nerf a class, provide some counter play to the class . For example, Scourge was nerfed into the ground by changing the shade mechanics in PvP . There was mention of possible buffs to Support Scourge that may be coming, but right now, Scourge is almost unplayable in PvP even with a dedicated support to keep a Necro alive. By the way, the changes to Death magic are completely unviable in PvP as a Scourge, and even as Minion Core Necro with Death magic.
    Give viable counter play please, not just random changes. In contrast, the changes to Warrior tactics were phenomenal and actually make Core Warrior as strong as Spellbreaker, or at least a viable option.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭

    There are several issues that annoy me personally.
    The cc for example, after using stun break and get CCed again feels wrong. Range cc is also annoying not only you get to apply damage from safe distance but now you get stun from there pff,should be just displacement at best, hard cc should come from heavy telegraphed abilities.
    Soft cces also feel like when one is applied there is no escape and they start rolling one on top of the other so one long cripple and it is kill or be killed kind of deal.Soft CCes are actually stronger than hard cc, since hard cc lasts max 3 seconds while soft cces last 6 to 10 seconds i have seen cripple stack to minute 50s.
    There is also some problem with some design in some professions like thief and mesmer , where there isn't really opening to pressure them in return from just weaving active defenses, they usually don't get that ou kitten moment where they are open like when necro is forced out of shroud or guardian uses Renewed Focus, they just port out so they either win or call it a draw and run away. That lack off win condition is pissing people off, that is why there are so many complaints about them they just don't really lose fights.
    We have a problem with bunkers from time to time crono, druid, scrapper now weaver that just ends up boring, people just squatting and rotating defensive cds, usually after some unbearable cheese meta when people don't want to be bothered with hit and run tactics or oneshots.
    The area denial classes dragon hunter, scourge i will hit you from range and if you come close you get killed but if you stay there you also get killed, if they are strong everyone has to play their game and when they are out of meta everyone is happy cause long lasting no go fields are not fun.
    Supports kinda feel left out and only FB is sitting pretty, i would suggest per person healed/buffed scaling multiplicator, so they don't end up just bunkers healing themselves, but who knows what it would do to WvW.
    There is problem with some telegraphs on skills or lack of such which breaks the pacing of the game. Stealth and quickness could be blamed also making it hard to see the telegraph. Stealth is kinda over the top in GW2 there should be some visual or sound indication when a stealth character is close and maybe a way to feel when a stealth target is hit, maybe hearing a woooo sound like in warcraft or some kind of vague hint prints on the ground or something. I noticed that Sight beyond sight has been changed several times why not make it work as a buff like the maguma mastery Nuhoch Stealth Detection for several seconds instead of being a debuff.
    Ranged animations are also a problem, projectiles just look small and the same there isn't much distinction between lets say longbow auto attack and pointblank shot on ranger or the reworked focus on guardian Ray of Judgment, hard to dodge free damage mostly because the telegraph is just hand wave motion on far away person, some projectile attacks need some big red flag before connecting. Also why the sniper class does not have a single aim skill, like not a single ability on deadeye is a skillshot just tab target and pew pew (personal annoyance).
    There is the problem with visual noise, mirage is main culprit these days with the endless supply of clones, when scourge was the big thing the shades combined with FB spells made it impossible to see what exactly is going on. So too much animation and not enough ends up the same.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 23, 2019

    Mesmer


    (This is from a thread I made a year ago)


    Duelist’s Discipline

    • Problem: Combined with Sharper Images, this trait means that Phantasmal Duelist alone can apply anywhere from 8-16 stacks of long-duration bleeding. Also, coupled with Mirage’s exceptionally high access to CC’s, this means that pistol skills can recharge nearly instantly.
    • Solution: Currently, this trait bleeds on EVERY hit from pistol attacks from you and your illusions. Instead, change this to 33% chance to bleed on CRITICAL hits like most other bleeding-related traits. Also, remove the 25% cooldown reduction on interrupt and make it a flat 20% cooldown reduction on pistol skills.

    Sharper Images

    • Problem: Again, this trait is 100% chance on critical hits to apply a 5-8 second bleed (Carrion vs. Deadshot amulet). This results in insane amounts of bleeding stacks with little effort on the mesmer’s part.
    • Solution: Similar to Sharpened Edges, Sharpshooter, Barbed Precision, and Bloodlust (basically every single bleed-on-attack related trait), make it 33% on critical hits and reduce the bleeding duration to 3 seconds because the effect can trigger from 3 different sources.

    Infinite Horizon

    Mirage Cloak

    • Problem: Dodging while disabled should not exist.
    • Solution: Remove the ability to dodge while disabled.

    Illusionary Counter

    • Problem: This skill is a 4.75 second cooldown, 2 second duration block that summons 2 clones and applies 7 stacks of torment (5 on trigger, 1 per clone).
    • Solution: Increase the cooldown to 10 seconds (8 seconds while traited) and reduce the torment on trigger to 3.
  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Emapudapus.1307 said:
    Since i am playing mostly necromancer PvP (mostly legend in HoT times), these things i think are bloated atm, not fun to play against or use, but necessary because of other powercreep. Also i think there also needs to be splits of traits between elite specialisations since they preform so differently and for one specialisation it can be useless and for other overpowered.:

    Sorry but im gonna reply to this one cause i see a few things that are concerning and fairly questionable in your suggestions.

    -GS 4 reaper: blind, cripple, boon corrupt, dmg, dark field, longer lasting; too much of everything.

    Really this just needs to be sped up keep the blind and cripple. Depending on how much boons get culled down depends on if it should keep its corrupt or not

    -Spectral walk: too bloated atm, duration too long or removal of condi removal.

    This is probably fine as is you have to remember necromancer lost its spectral mastery trait and the spectral skills (except spectral armor for some odd reason) were compensated as a result.

    -reaper onslaught: too bloated, perma quickness with ferocity too much, previous trait was better. Promotes unhealty oneshot builds.

    Well there is no such thing as a 1 shot build on necro that simply does not happen right now unless you stand there and let it happen. There is no skill or combo of skills that nukes you from 100-0 in 1.5 seconds in necros kit. Reaper does not do damage that you dont see coming unlike alot of the other professions, ref, mirage, soul beast, etc, Most classes can often survive a full soulsprial even let alone if they dodge its obvious animation.
    I agree the quickness should be removed from this trait but the ferocity is fine unless we see all other classes also lose ferocity or other similar stat traits. I would suggest making reaper shroud just faster at its base (so its not clunky but also not quickness level fast roughly 30% faster down from 50% that quickness gives) you could easily do this by reducing all the cast times in the reaper kit by 33% of their current base its the same thing as effectively making the skills faster.

    -Master of corruption: the effect is too strong. For it to be balanced the original cooldowns have to be too long, extra conditions arent fun for anyone (aka nerf to heal from 24 to 30 sec and 2 conditions on heal use)

    This makes no sense really. Depending on how long you have been playing you would know that Consume conditions for example use to orginally be 24 seconds and got Nerfed up to 30 seconds with the addition of self vuln application.

    -fear of death: bloated trait. It should give you max 50% fear duration which dont make condi duration less valuable.

    First of all make fear a hard cc then we can talk about cutting its duration. Currently has way too many counters and this makes core un-viable in the pvp setting as fear application is one of its main lines of defense.

    -deathly chill: split between reaper-core-scourage.

    This leads me to think you dont know what you are talking about, or trolling possibly? Because deathly chill is a reaper only trait. There can be no core/reaper/scourge split. Not like this trait is commonly used anyways.

    -death perception: should be reverted back to 50% crit (too many dmg modifiers give rise to oneshot builds).

    Necormancer cannot currently perform a 1 shot build unless you stand there and dont do anything at all. It cant sneak up to you and 1 tap you to death. The old version was far too much crit chance at best reduce the ferocity gain only if other professions also lose ferocity/other stats on their stat bonus traits

    -corrupt boon: its not overpowered but as its design atm with many condi cleanses and many boons, its too spamy and low impact (low impact not by itself but from enemies and their cleanses or bloated use of boons)

    Im not sure its spamy but the only reason necromancer has so many is because so many other professions have a ton of boons that also need to be removed (way more than the necromancer has) and can handle.

    And things that got undeserved, unfun changes or made them useless/pointless:

    -Warhorn 5: rework made it prety useless, pointless and unfun, lower range, shorter duration, no cripple, not working with blood traitline for siphons, killing all synergy. Should be rerolled back.

    I feel like it does not need to totally be re rollled back. How ever the duration that it pulsed over time before should be rolled back. There are some beneifits to having a mobile aoe that does not strike (full counter procs, retaliation procs, shocking aura procs, frost aura procs, etc)

    -Parasitic contagion: could be buffed little and working while in shroud or split between scourage and others.

    I feel like this is one of the traits that should not change till we see how all the other nerfs work out.

    -consume condition: shouldnt apply condition on you

    But you want it when traited to apply 2 conditions and have a higher base cd as stated above???

    -Plaguelands: revert to old spell except for scourage, atm its unfun and useless and in vanilla GW2 it was quite interesting spell to use.

    No point to doing this now imo the old skill did make you tanky but was not that exciting for me personally

    -Lichform: rework? I dont know whats its purpuse

    It may not need a total rework once we see the other nerfs come through but i still think it needs some major QoL if this gets nerfed as it is right now its a dead skill in general. The cd is already too high and the skills are lackluster and clunky.

    -Blood bond: it feels little weak atm, before bugfix when it also healed it was good, noone was complaining its too strong.

    Lol no that was broken you just never saw a good player use it with Signet of suffering. Trust me this trait is fine as it is.

    -cold shoulder: (for me personaly) less dmg recieved from chilled enemies was better for me than dmg done to chilled enemies, too many +% dmg modifiers makes dmg bloated.

    If only chill application was viable in pvp (its currently already not a thing and surely wont be with more reductions coming) At best this trait can be one that meets in the middle with 5% offence 5% damage reduction

    -soul eater: unthematic traitline undergone many iteration now it lost its purpose and its too restrictive (like range or not working in shroud) unfun to use.

    I would say remove the range limit and healing factor from it all together and it might be fine.

    -Axe 2: too clunky if ppl use evade or dodge or something on it. Needs quality of life improvements.

    Lol this is fine as perhaps lower its damage slightly and speed up so that it strikes slightly faster (but can be evaded in a single dodge)

    -soul spiral: poison duration could be increased back to before nerf, would help with bruiser role little and if someone wants to go back to condi reaper.

    No reason to do this as reaper as been slowly going toward the power role. The poison is only there to help combat healing for a short period.

  • Issues with support classes. Firebrand inherently outclasses other support options due to the damage mitigating boons it gives over other supports. Resistance, aegis and stability are far more valuable as pure damage mitigation over attempting to clear condies or remove conditions reactively.

    Tempest, Ventari, Druid, and to a lesser extent Scrapper will always be out classed by Firebrands as support because most of their support comes from some condition clearing and healing. Even though the healing potential is high for them the value of healing is out performed by the pure damage mitigation/prevention that firebrand offers. A blocked attack with aegis, or blocked condi spike with resistance is always better than trying to recover someone by healing them.

    Even if the level of power and damage is reduced, other supports may be more viable but still always out classed by the prevention boons that firebrand offers. This is easily seen with firebrand with how they perform between using books 2 and 3. Firebrand and it's team are far more vulnerable when the firebrand is using book 2 over book 3 since the healing is fairly miniscule compared to the incoming damage.

    Giving the supports more impactful play/abilities/boons will help the viability of them instead of totally being out classed.

  • FtoPScrub.5476FtoPScrub.5476 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 23, 2019

    Have you considered adjusting baseline health pools on an elite spec basis rather than class wide? A lot of issues stem from shared health pools. Like 11k baseline HP on DH = underwhelming, but 11k HP on FB = meta.

  • There's a lot of good comments here already. here's some specifics I think you can adress that would help a lot. This list would not cover everything but only some of the thinsg I think are easy to target :

    General :
    Sigil of Agility : It's a very fun sigil, but also really gamechanging on a lot of skills. I liek the interaction but feel like it should be toned down. reducing the agility to 1sec wouldn't solve the issue thought.
    Runes of Leadership : Make it so the 6part bonus only affect allies and not you, so people have to make a choice between those and Runes of Lyssa. Maybe reduce Runes of Lyssa from 3 to 2 conditions converted.

    Elementalist:
    increase the cooldown of Primordial Stance back up
    Increase the speed of Sword Water 2 the same way you did with Mesmer sword 2 ( same properties, but reduce oeverall evade uptime )
    Tone down Glyph of Elemental Power Fire

    Engineer :
    Reduce the Stealth duration on Throw Elixir S to 2sec ( 3 with HGH )
    Reduce the stability from Elixir U from 2 to 1 stack ( This is to keep Elixir U > Riffle 4 but make it so they don't have stability after doing it )
    Also reduce either the lenght of the boons from Elixir U or increase the cooldown.
    Increase the cooldown of Holo Leap by 1 or 2sec
    Add a cast time to Riffle 4

    Guardian :
    Reduce the number of conditions converted by Tome 2 skill 5 from 5 to 3 ( This has to be done to balance out conditions applications versus condition cleanses overall )
    Signet of Mercy is strong but promotes good gameplay, I wouldn't want it to be nerfed.

    Thief :
    Remove the Jump Staff 3 interaction
    Staff Master : Reduce the endurance per initiative from doing Staff skills from 1 to 2 in PvP
    Reduce Feline's Grace Vigor from 5 to 2sec ( this will force Thieves to take Vigor on Heal, removing the passive invulnerability proc from the meta )
    Deadly Ambition : The nerf you talked about is great.
    Add a telegraph to Binding Shadow ( some kind of projectile maybe ? )

    Mesmer :
    Something has to be done about Infinite Horizon but I'm unsure of how to approach it.
    Mirage cloak while CC'ed should only be possible with Elusive Mind
    Reduce the duration of Lesser Chaos Storm from Descent into Madness from 5sec to 2 ( right now, Lesser chaos storm is literally just Chaos storm )

    Ranger :
    The Gazelle needs really heavy nerfs to damage on every skill.

    Warrior :
    Reduce Might Make Right endurance per Might to 1 instead of 2, reduce the healing part a little bit as well
    Reduce the Might from the Magetether from 2 per pulse to 1
    Increase the cooldown of Full Counter from 8 to 10
    Bull's Charge really doesn't need the evade.
    Warrior's Cuning is way too one dimensional if fighting classes that Barrier themselves passively.

    These are specifics that should go hands in hands with the idea of reducing overall damage / conditions applications.

  • Can you speed up the animation of Rev shield 4? Tried a healing Rev today and it was very hard to time it to heal my allies. They would all just move out of the way by the time it got to them. I never had any issues with Druid staff 3 for example.

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