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Let's Talk About PvP Balance

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  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    you want condi damage to be reduced by AT LEAST 80%.
    you want condi cleanse to also give 5-10s resistance ( thats 5-10s of damage immunity ).
    Immagine if everyone could spam 5-10s immunities to power damage, and have power damage reduced by 80%, now that would be something :D

    You missed the 2-letter word or.

    Of course both of the changes are too much and I never meant to have both added to the game.
    But currently, conditions are way too strong and are amassed way to quickly.
    Conditions should be decided as damage over a longer time, not as "spam as much as possible to kill in 3 seconds".
    Seeing that conditions currently kill faster than power builds is simply terrible design.

    where did you take that from? becouse most meta builds are power.
    its better to deal 20k dmg in 3s with power burst, then to apply 40k condi dmg in 3s, that gets negated with cleanse. or resist. or healing.

  • The problem is that in PvP there are professions that do too many things with a single build and are Firebrand, Holosmith and SB.

    Would anyone explain to me why pets should get nerfs?

  • Khisanth.2948Khisanth.2948 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Okami Amaterasu.9237 said:
    Also every profession should have at Least 1 skill that applies Revealed, not only to help counter Thieves and some of their perma-stealth builds, but also the occasional Mesmer, Ranger, or Engineer if they're using stealth. For example, no Elementalists or Mesmers can apply Revealed on any of their skills, so they should at least have 1 available somewhere as a buff.

    That sort of escalating arms race is probably not a good idea. That is the approach that got us into the mess with boons vs strip, condi vs cleanse, cc vs stability. We don't need a repeat of that with stealth vs revealed.

  • JayAction.9056JayAction.9056 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2019

    Revenant as a whole is completely mediocre. At HOT Revenant had a defined presence.

    At HOT release Revenant was high damage, low sustain, completely countered by conditions and boon corruption with high support as boons.

    Now it is bottom tier damage with all its weaknesses and I can’t help but imagine it’s been nerfed due to players like myself playing the meta build and beating it like a dead horse.

    —All Revenant condition weapons suck in pvp.
    —Renegade is the most trash spec in the game
    —Renegade short bow is the most trash weapon in the game
    —Revenant has all its original weaknesses and none of its precious strengths
    —Half of the talent trees and options on the viable trees are worthless.

  • Cpt Crunch.7058Cpt Crunch.7058 Member ✭✭
    edited October 25, 2019

    Addressing IH, MC, and Ambushes:
    It seems the biggest problems players face with Mirage are related to Infinite Horizon, clone ambush attacks (condi specifically), and the fact Mirage Cloak can be used while CC’ed. Unfortunately these are all elements which define the feel of Mirage. Any attempt to remove or alter them substantially will be met with fury by Mesmer mains, especially after what has happened with Chrono over the past year. The future for Mesmer from our point-of-view appears to be very bleak.

    Therefore, as some Mesmer mains interested in healthy play for everyone already mentioned, is to make Infinite Horizon into the minor grandmaster trait and remove ambush damage from clones, but keep the animation and the invuln from Mirage Cloak. This would put Mirage in a much better position as to how it should be balanced, from the perspective that the specialization makes the Mesmer into a capable point-blank combatant. This is why Mirage Cloak when CC'ed and IH protecting clones (a long standing problem for Mesmer in general as no other profession's special mechanic gets shut down the same way) paramount to its identity. Most suggestions offered by players might address the current problems with Condi Mirage, but would literally destroy any viability for Power Mirages thus further pigeon-holing Mesmer into 1 specialization with just 1 build. From here each of the grandmaster traits can take the Daredevil approach as Anet seems to want to do and act as modifiers to how Mirage Cloak and/or ambush function. Additionally, since IH would become the new minor grandmaster, movement speed bonus gained from Mirage Cloak could also be removed thus rewarding good positioning and situational awareness.

    Here is an example of how the new grandmaster traits could work:

    -Grandmaster Trait 1: Player ambushes no longer cause damage or condis (but can still afflict CC’s), instead ambush attacks from clones now have damage, conditions, and CC reintegrated. Maybe even decrease endurance regeneration by 0 to 25% depending on hard the clone ambushes would hit now.

    -Grandmaster Trait 2: Clones lose ambush animations but retain the invuln from Mirage Cloak, the players own ambush attack has increased direct damage/condi application. Maybe with a modified (more beefy looking) animation.

    -Grandmaster Trait 3: Clones lose ambush animations and invuln from Mirage Cloak. Instead player’s Mirage Cloak duration is increased from 0.75 to 1 second, player gains 100% Superspeed for 3 seconds (non-stacking) the moment Mirage Cloak is activated, and one condition is transferred to the clones (or maybe a bit of barrier, the point is that this grandmaster should enhance the players defense but at the cost of being able to protect the clones)

    Before anyone starts comparing hard numbers to some random arbitrary kitten already in-game, let me state that numbers don’t matter at this point, they can always be adjusted, I just want to draw attention to the concept.

    Each of these grandmaster traits are viable regardless of whether the player is power, condi, or trying out a funky support role. It gives the Mesmer options as to how they wish to approach combat and opens up interesting combinations while maintaining the idea that there is a price to pay for everything. It also rewards players fighting against the mirage for being flexible with their own strategies on how to approach while retaining the surprise that something called an ambush should cause.
    Additionally, the first changes that should be addressed for proper balance should be the duration of boons, the number of stacks, and how often they can be supplied…. for everyone. This alone is going to change the game drastically, and it is at this point that further balance to mechanics (again, for everyone) should be examined. Even then, usually the mechanic itself could stay but what needs adjustment is numbers.

    A note on mantras:
    Mesmer mains have already mentioned that Mantra of Distraction makes sense for it to be insta-cast and insta-hit given its purpose. If the daze duration is an issue then lower to 0.5 or 0.25 second as it is used more to stop a cast rather than to lock down an opponent. Mantra of Pain on the other hand is busted. Insta-cast makes sense, the problem is that MoP is also insta-hit with 1200 range. Make it into a fast moving projectile, or make the damage occur after a delay with a decent telegraph as someone suggested, that way there is actual counter play to its use.

    A note on condi stacks:
    Most of you have some really wonky math, bad enough that you shouldn’t even use numbers in your arguments because all it does is cause you to arrive to erroneous conclusions and it just hurts any argument you try to make. Using axe 3 as an example, it applies 3 stacks of confusion from the player with each stack doing 149 base damage to players on skill-use, it then applies 1 stack of confusion per clone (with a reduced damage of 50 base damage to players on skill-use) for an extra 3 stacks if you have all 3 clones up. In total on the UI you would read 6 stacks of confusion, yet if you combine the 3 stacks due to clones you will see that they sum up to the intensity of a single stack of the player-caused confusion. So in a way you have 4 stacks of “player” confusion, not 6 stacks…. Consider the number “bloated” and part of the “misdirection” aspect that Mesmers are known for. The same thing happens with torment from axe ambush, the swirling axe projectiles, and scepter ambush. The only ambushes that do not split condi’s between player and clones are greatsword, sword, staff, and underwater weapons with trident and staff being the only ones that apply damaging condi’s. Look at the actual numbers, and stop counting “stacks”.

    A note on staff auto-attack and its ambush:
    Staff ambush doesn’t track like other projectile skills so you can side-step out of the way, so idk, maybe don’t stand in its path? Not knowing how to keep moving and applying principles of angular momentum, similar to how it is done with various elements in PvE combat in open world and fractals, is not a reason why mechanics need to be eliminated. Wish I didn’t have to say it but this is definitely a “learn2play” situation here. Also, staff auto-attacks only do good (not obscene!) damage by stacking condi's when the Mesmer is standing close to you so that the orbs bounce between you and the Mesmer, since they don’t bounce between clones. Look at where the orbs go, they will go right to the real Mesmer and give him away. You can also step away and cut down on how much condi’s are stacking. Or use one of the billion AoE and cleaves that every profession has to pop those 3k health clones. Again “learn2play”.

    Message to Anet specifically:
    Stop “adjusting” things by taking a sledgehammer to it. Recognize that small changes are better than drastic large ones. For example, halving the radius of Holographic Shockwave actually reduced the area the skill covers down to 25% of what it once was (A = pi*r^2 in case you forgot). This has had the effect of destroying the _feel_ of that skill for both the player using it and as the one defending against it (it just ain’t something to take seriously anymore which isn’t fun) while still not addressing the underlying issues such as the range of the forge auto-attacks, damage and/or boon generation from forge skills, or their sustain through vigor uptime and heat therapy. A good solution would have been to just lower the damage (a bit! Not by a ton as you usually do) on Holographic Shockwave and exempting it from being able to reveal stealthed players when traited. This would go a long way to making it fun to deal with (and use!) rather than something blatantly oppressive.

    I believe that if boons, their supply, duration, etc. are addressed first, it will be found that some or all of these problems (again, for every class) will also disappear, or at least be in a position where actual balance is manageable. So before you bring down the wrecking crew on every class, let’s do this first.

    Additionally, on the idea of creating drawbacks for choosing a specialization, you can always take the route you took for Revenant. You created a drawback by giving core a mechanic that makes it more appealing and something to be lost upon specializing. It fits both the idea you have in mind while also addressing the weaknesses core suffers from the power creep brought on by HoT and PoF. Bad example of drawbacks would be what you have done to Scrapper and to Chrono. The changes you made are not fun or exciting. Plenty of posts already explaining why so no need to reiterate. Admitting to mistakes is not a weakness but rather a sign of growth and would do wonders towards restoring engaging gameplay and trust among the playerbase.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2019

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @Lilyanna.9361 said:

    • Necro (What can I say? Again, with my limited knowledge, it relies on the team enough. It got slapped with nerfs since scourge was WAY out of hand for too long. Reaper is balanced imo. Core necro is also balanced but the fear chaining..EHHHH, I'm on the fence about it. Big time. I won't say nerf the tests, but keep an eye on their corrupting is all)

    Here is where I disagree. Reaper is not balanced. its chill uptime and its destructive power is way too high. Coupled with quickness and it's just a monster. Reaper needs nerfs, and part of those nerfs lies in Axe 2 on necro and the reaper skills themselves, as well as the AoE ranged skill that can chill and take like half of your health down in one proc. Definitely not balanced at all.

    Chill uptime from Reaper is actually pretty low. Even more so with all the condi clear in the game. The only class that really should notice issues from reapers chill are other necormancers and elementalist. Everything else is hardly effected. I dont even depend on chill in pvp anymore because its so minimal. A scourges cripplel was far more effective than a reapers chill but if you think it needs nerfs by all means take it... i really dont hinge on it lol i dont think most reapers do anymore.

    The destructive power is quite high? But on that note every other class hits equally as hard if not harder and faster. Some classses being able to do it with much more mobility at range and hard defenses and better sustain. But if you protest that Reapers power is too high then ill agree its too high so long as we can agree and understand that this means everyone else's destructive power is also too high if not even higher meaning everyone needs to have their power lowered by the same amount if not more.

    Necromancers axe 2 does quite rather hard if you allow it to scratch you for its full duration that said its the only ranged power weapon if not the only main viable power weapon for necromancer. Considering the great sword is extremely slow and hits modestly hard but certainly not as hard as say a warriors greatsword or a rangers greatsword or has the defensive or mobile utility of either of those yeh... That said if you think the axe 2 is the issue then we must protest that all power weapons in the games need to have their main quick bursting skills reduced down quite a bit. Especially on the power weapons that offer alot more utility along side that damage.

    In terms of the quickness i agree that needs to go that said base reaper shroud cannot stay as slow as it is at its base. Its pretty rough when you have limited mobility and have to walk into melee range only to not be able to complete even your basic auto attack in time to do damage before you take too much damage or the target retreats away. Thats not acceptable. I honestly believe the quickness was not meant to be a long term solution to fixing power reaper's shroud. The proper adjustment should have just been to sped up the shroud by a fair amount (just not to quickness levels)

    Lastly.... I want to know what this ranged aoe skill is that applies chill and takes half of your hp in one proc so i can start using it. As some one who plays reaper alot could really use a skill like that till these changes came in.

    If you are going to point out one of the lower end elites and or professions especially when it comes to terms of power damage and say its too strong when there are much more destructive power builds out there thats saying alot.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @Lilyanna.9361 said:

    • Necro (What can I say? Again, with my limited knowledge, it relies on the team enough. It got slapped with nerfs since scourge was WAY out of hand for too long. Reaper is balanced imo. Core necro is also balanced but the fear chaining..EHHHH, I'm on the fence about it. Big time. I won't say nerf the tests, but keep an eye on their corrupting is all)

    Here is where I disagree. Reaper is not balanced. its chill uptime and its destructive power is way too high. Coupled with quickness and it's just a monster. Reaper needs nerfs, and part of those nerfs lies in Axe 2 on necro and the reaper skills themselves, as well as the AoE ranged skill that can chill and take like half of your health down in one proc. Definitely not balanced at all.

    Chill uptime from Reaper is actually pretty low. Even more so with all the condi clear in the game. The only class that really should notice issues from reapers chill are other necormancers and elementalist. Everything else is hardly effected. I dont even depend on chill in pvp anymore because its so minimal. A scourges cripplel was far more effective than a reapers chill but if you think it needs nerfs by all means take it... i really dont hinge on it lol i dont think most reapers do anymore.

    The destructive power is quite high? But on that note every other class hits equally as hard if not harder and faster. Some classses being able to do it with much more mobility at range and hard defenses and better sustain. But if you protest that Reapers power is too high then ill agree its too high so long as we can agree and understand that this means everyone else's destructive power is also too high if not even higher meaning everyone needs to have their power lowered by the same amount if not more.

    Necromancers axe 2 does quite rather hard if you allow it to scratch you for its full duration that said its the only ranged power weapon if not the only main viable power weapon for necromancer. Considering the great sword is extremely slow and hits modestly hard but certainly not as hard as say a warriors greatsword or a rangers greatsword or has the defensive or mobile utility of either of those yeh... That said if you think the axe 2 is the issue then we must protest that all power weapons in the games need to have their main quick bursting skills reduced down quite a bit. Especially on the power weapons that offer alot more utility along side that damage.

    In terms of the quickness i agree that needs to go that said base reaper shroud cannot stay as slow as it is at its base. Its pretty rough when you have limited mobility and have to walk into melee range only to not be able to complete even your basic auto attack in time to do damage before you take too much damage or the target retreats away. Thats not acceptable. I honestly believe the quickness was not meant to be a long term solution to fixing power reaper's shroud. The proper adjustment should have just been to sped up the shroud by a fair amount (just not to quickness levels)

    Lastly.... I want to know what this ranged aoe skill is that applies chill and takes half of your hp in one proc so i can start using it. As some one who plays reaper alot could really use a skill like that till these changes came in.

    If you are going to point out one of the lower end elites and or professions especially when it comes to terms of power damage and say its too strong when there are much more destructive power builds out there thats saying alot.

    also the reaper "destructive power" is almost suicidal, reaper is a thief without their evades, is a warrior without their high hp, is a holosmith without their toons of gimmicks. reaper relys solely on dodge/run or kill before its killed.

    main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).

  • Swagg.9236Swagg.9236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Revenant:
    Inhibit Revenant's ability to chain together literally 10+ seconds of block and evade back to back with no pause.

    Hard disagree. If revenant is “evading/blocking” for 10s straight it’s spending all of its energy on doing that at the expense of losing most of its damage output (note not all, just the majority) and will end up dead once it runs out of energy. Meanwhile you have plenty of other classes able to put out significant damage pressure and block/evade/invuln without having to really trade off for it. Spellbreaker/Mirage for example.

    Good thing that rev can just press F1 or F2 for more energy.

  • Swagg.9236Swagg.9236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    Conditions are way too strong currently and need either be nerfed by at least 80% or have system changes to counter them.
    Bursting players down within 2 seconds already is disgusting, but with doing so with conditions is nothing short of atrocious.

    System changes could/should include:
    Remove immobility from the conditions and add it to the CC category, so stun breaks remove it.
    Remove Stability and Resistance from the corruption table.
    Conditions cleansing skills need to apply Resistance for some time (maybe 5 to 10 seconds), or else they are completely useless.
    In the current form, removing conditions makes no sense, as they are back not even half a second later.

    99,99% people skipped what you wrote after reading first sentence, not me.
    I endured all of it in its glory, I want you to take a step back, and think hard on what you are proposing.
    you want condi damage to be reduced by AT LEAST 80%.
    you want condi cleanse to also give 5-10s resistance ( thats 5-10s of damage immunity ).

    Immagine if everyone could spam 5-10s immunities to power damage, and have power damage reduced by 80%, now that would be something :D

    Direct strikes determine solid victors. There's a reason why people in a lot of highly competitive games seize up in pain when they see people die to DoTs: it's not enjoyable to watch or experience, and it's a combat option which often promotes passivity and ambushing rather than open-field contests.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagg.9236 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    Conditions are way too strong currently and need either be nerfed by at least 80% or have system changes to counter them.
    Bursting players down within 2 seconds already is disgusting, but with doing so with conditions is nothing short of atrocious.

    System changes could/should include:
    Remove immobility from the conditions and add it to the CC category, so stun breaks remove it.
    Remove Stability and Resistance from the corruption table.
    Conditions cleansing skills need to apply Resistance for some time (maybe 5 to 10 seconds), or else they are completely useless.
    In the current form, removing conditions makes no sense, as they are back not even half a second later.

    99,99% people skipped what you wrote after reading first sentence, not me.
    I endured all of it in its glory, I want you to take a step back, and think hard on what you are proposing.
    you want condi damage to be reduced by AT LEAST 80%.
    you want condi cleanse to also give 5-10s resistance ( thats 5-10s of damage immunity ).

    Immagine if everyone could spam 5-10s immunities to power damage, and have power damage reduced by 80%, now that would be something :D

    Direct strikes determine solid victors. There's a reason why people in a lot of highly competitive games seize up in pain when they see people die to DoTs: it's not enjoyable to watch or experience, and it's a combat option which often promotes passivity and ambushing rather than open-field contests.

    its a difference of opinions tbh, the guy I responded to doesnt like condis, im fine with that.
    but what im not fine is making them unusable compleatly, they are inferior to power damage as it is.
    if anything power damage needs shaves, current burst is too high on almost all power specs, to many oponents can kill you within 1,5-2s

  • @Ghos.1326 said:

    @Revolution.5409 said:
    The problem is that in PvP there are professions that do too many things with a single build and are Firebrand, Holosmith and SB.

    Would anyone explain to me why pets should get nerfs?

    Because when a rock gazelle can legit smack you for 10k, on top of all of your high damaging strikes to add, it tends to get a bit unfair. I mean, why should that be a thing at all? hitting 10k with a pet? No thanks. Nerf everything, all the things that are overperforming currently, bring it down. Let the fire of justice rain down hard.

    But even other mechanics are able to hit for 10k damage, so shouldn't all the mechanics be able to do that damage?

  • Arkantos.7460Arkantos.7460 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2019

    @JayAction.9056 said:
    Revenant as a whole is completely mediocre. At HOT Revenant had a defined presence.

    At HOT release Revenant was high damage, low sustain, completely countered by conditions and boon corruption with high support as boons.

    Now it is bottom tier damage with all its weaknesses and I can’t help but imagine it’s been nerfed due to players like myself playing the meta build and beating it like a dead horse.

    —All Revenant condition weapons suck in pvp.
    —Renegade is the most trash spec in the game
    —Renegade short bow is the most trash weapon in the game
    —Revenant has all its original weaknesses and none of its precious strengths
    —Half of the talent trees and options on the viable trees are worthless.

    pretty much this
    condi applying weapon mace had more ground targeting skills which are extremely unsafe
    no core range condi weapon
    no core midrange power weapon .. only super lame hammer wich you nerfed too
    i see rev as only class of all which has the extreme weakness against condis while very low cleanse ... warrior cleanse 3 with each f1 skill ...

  • Saharo Gravewind.5120Saharo Gravewind.5120 Member ✭✭
    edited October 26, 2019

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @Revolution.5409 said:
    The problem is that in PvP there are professions that do too many things with a single build and are Firebrand, Holosmith and SB.

    Would anyone explain to me why pets should get nerfs?

    Because when a rock gazelle can legit smack you for 10k, on top of all of your high damaging strikes to add, it tends to get a bit unfair. I mean, why should that be a thing at all? hitting 10k with a pet? No thanks. Nerf everything, all the things that are overperforming currently, bring it down. Let the fire of justice rain down hard.

    High damaging strikes? Any ranger that is hitting you that hard on non-burst strikes is going to be be glassy, so I wouldn't say its unfair. DPS rangers can't clear condi. Even when it is a burst, if it's a DPS dealing ranger, he's probably running GS. Which has arguably the most predictable and easy to read animations.

    Holo or Spellbreak can hit you for a huge amount too, and they have other annoying spec mechanics that are more OP than a pet. And not AI-based. They'll hit you for that 10k and then each of their individual strikes will actually be /high damaging/.

    Pet nerfs would hurt all ranger builds. Absolutely no point.

  • Swagg.9236Swagg.9236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 26, 2019

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Swagg.9236 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    Conditions are way too strong currently and need either be nerfed by at least 80% or have system changes to counter them.
    Bursting players down within 2 seconds already is disgusting, but with doing so with conditions is nothing short of atrocious.

    System changes could/should include:
    Remove immobility from the conditions and add it to the CC category, so stun breaks remove it.
    Remove Stability and Resistance from the corruption table.
    Conditions cleansing skills need to apply Resistance for some time (maybe 5 to 10 seconds), or else they are completely useless.
    In the current form, removing conditions makes no sense, as they are back not even half a second later.

    99,99% people skipped what you wrote after reading first sentence, not me.
    I endured all of it in its glory, I want you to take a step back, and think hard on what you are proposing.
    you want condi damage to be reduced by AT LEAST 80%.
    you want condi cleanse to also give 5-10s resistance ( thats 5-10s of damage immunity ).

    Immagine if everyone could spam 5-10s immunities to power damage, and have power damage reduced by 80%, now that would be something :D

    Direct strikes determine solid victors. There's a reason why people in a lot of highly competitive games seize up in pain when they see people die to DoTs: it's not enjoyable to watch or experience, and it's a combat option which often promotes passivity and ambushing rather than open-field contests.

    its a difference of opinions tbh, the guy I responded to doesnt like condis, im fine with that.
    but what im not fine is making them unusable compleatly, they are inferior to power damage as it is.
    if anything power damage needs shaves, current burst is too high on almost all power specs, to many oponents can kill you within 1,5-2s

    It's sort of really not a difference in opinions, though. From FPS to RTS to MOBAs to fighting games and even cardgames, most successful, online competitive games nowadays are mostly devoid of DoTs. Those which do employ DoTs often only feature ones which very rarely result in kill confirmations within PvP encounters. And don't @ me with that "buh those are different genres" argument. We're talking about the reality in which DoTs are mostly absent from the widespread e-sports scene, and there's probably a reason for this. There's probably also a reason why a game that aims for you with a tab-target system isn't something that is regularly featured in a competitive, online video game PvP landscape.

    Nobody who plays competitive games wants to deal with DoTs that can just tick through a player's entire HP bar within the same amount of time it takes to walk halfway from maximum range to melee range. And in order to abate that abominable horrorscape, GW2 has adopted the design paradigm of "Just make everyone negate incoming damage while they attack, bro," and now nobody has to think about positioning or timing or aiming or communicating with anyone. The game nearly plays itself on an individual basis. Just remove DoTs, bro. It's not an opinion thing. It's a skill ceiling and fun game design thing that's been proven for decades at this point.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Heartpains.7312 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    I thought about a long essay about the philosophy of balance and the further I went into it the more and more I realized no one would ever read it. And so I figured I'd just condense a lot of what I'd like to see immediately into small patch notes.

    Mesmer
    Cry of Frustration Cooldown reduced to 16 seconds to make condition shatter traits more worth taking over deceptive evasion.
    Mantra of Pain: Rather than immediately pulsing damage, this ability gives a ticking time bomb effect similar to pulmonary impact that will pulse a bit of damage after 3 seconds, but can be dodged and blocked.
    Illusion of Life: Increase cast time to 2s, give it an obvious tell akin to Signet of Mercy.
    Illusionary Counter (Scepter 2): This ability now fires a projectile to deal it's damage rather than immediately applying from range.
    Deceptive Evasion: Clones from the Mirage specialization no longer spawn doing their ambush attack.
    Mirage Cloak: This is no longer usable while while under crowd control effects aside from daze.
    False Oasis: Cast time of this skill has been increased to 1.25 seconds, healing reduced by 15%.
    Chaos Vortex: Condition duration from staff clone ambushes has been reduced by 50%.
    Long term goal: Decompress power mesmer's damage output so that it can't be overlapped in under a second to one shot players. Compress Condition mesmer's output so that it requires a number of both shatter and weapon skills to land for it to get it's damage rather than bombarding players with an endless assault of clone auto attacks.
    Long term goal: Unfuck Chronomancer. Seriously, losing Distortion for Continuum Split was enough, losing Illusionary Person on top of it was over kill.

    I think you should start playing power mesmer instead of condi, the Mirage Cloak change you want can NEVER go through anymore, and False Oasis changes says you are playing condi as well, seriously go play power mesmer and see things clearly lol, I do not want to be playing core mesmer because both chrono and mirage are screwed.

    Or honestly just try to play without being able to use Mirage Cloak while cc'd (aka just don't use it), include immobilize, really try it, specially as power, it is gonna be so much fun for you.

    I didn't include wvw thieves that plays stabby thief, some play it as DE and some as core and some as DD, they will stab you and you will die instantly don't worry.

    Some classes have high up time of stability, so don't go around and try to nerf mirage cloak like that, and the heal nerf also unacceptable, lots of the mesmer changes you want to make for mesmers are unacceptable.

    I've played plenty of power mesmer, both core and mirage. Losing Mirage Cloak while CC'd isn't going to break Mirage. Mesmer is pretty spoiled for stunbreak options between Blink and Signet of Midnight. And even plenty of nonstunbreak options like Phase Retreat, Jaunt and Illusionary Ambush to move you out of danger while stunned and even things like F3 and F4, Mantra of Distraction can save you if you end up stunned.

    False Oasis is just a biiiit too good of a heal for the sheer utility of it. It can be 100% covered by Mirage Cloak making it nearly impossible to interrupt, which is bad enough. But it grants both an evade through a mirror and enough vigor to get a bar of endurance after the 5 seconds the heal spends ticking. So using mirage Cloak isn't even a real investment of resources to ensure the heal happens. Shave a bit of the healing off because it is a bit too potent for all it's utility, 15% to 20%. Extend the cast time so everyone has an opportunity to interrupt it even with Mirage Cloak. It'd still be an amazing healing skill.

    Dodge while stunned and Elusive Mind are fundamentally toxic interactions. And losing Dodge while stunned won't dumpster mirage like losing Illusionary Persona did for Chrono.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagg.9236 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Swagg.9236 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    Conditions are way too strong currently and need either be nerfed by at least 80% or have system changes to counter them.
    Bursting players down within 2 seconds already is disgusting, but with doing so with conditions is nothing short of atrocious.

    System changes could/should include:
    Remove immobility from the conditions and add it to the CC category, so stun breaks remove it.
    Remove Stability and Resistance from the corruption table.
    Conditions cleansing skills need to apply Resistance for some time (maybe 5 to 10 seconds), or else they are completely useless.
    In the current form, removing conditions makes no sense, as they are back not even half a second later.

    99,99% people skipped what you wrote after reading first sentence, not me.
    I endured all of it in its glory, I want you to take a step back, and think hard on what you are proposing.
    you want condi damage to be reduced by AT LEAST 80%.
    you want condi cleanse to also give 5-10s resistance ( thats 5-10s of damage immunity ).

    Immagine if everyone could spam 5-10s immunities to power damage, and have power damage reduced by 80%, now that would be something :D

    Direct strikes determine solid victors. There's a reason why people in a lot of highly competitive games seize up in pain when they see people die to DoTs: it's not enjoyable to watch or experience, and it's a combat option which often promotes passivity and ambushing rather than open-field contests.

    its a difference of opinions tbh, the guy I responded to doesnt like condis, im fine with that.
    but what im not fine is making them unusable compleatly, they are inferior to power damage as it is.
    if anything power damage needs shaves, current burst is too high on almost all power specs, to many oponents can kill you within 1,5-2s

    It's sort of really not a difference in opinions, though. From FPS to RTS to MOBAs to fighting games and even cardgames, most successful, online competitive games nowadays are mostly devoid of DoTs. Those which do employ DoTs often only feature ones which very rarely result in kill confirmations within PvP encounters. And don't @ me with that "buh those are different genres" argument. We're talking about the reality in which DoTs are mostly absent from the widespread e-sports scene, and there's probably a reason for this. There's probably also a reason why a game that aims for you with a tab-target system isn't something that is regularly featured in a competitive, online video game PvP landscape.

    Nobody who plays competitive games wants to deal with DoTs that can just tick through a player's entire HP bar within the same amount of time it takes to walk halfway from maximum range to melee range. And in order to abate that abominable horrorscape, GW2 has adopted the design paradigm of "Just make everyone negate incoming damage while they attack, bro," and now nobody has to think about positioning or timing or aiming or communicating with anyone. The game nearly plays itself on an individual basis. Just remove DoTs, bro. It's not an opinion thing. It's a skill ceiling and fun game design thing that's been proven for decades at this point.

    FPS and RTS dont have dots becuse they cant be implemented?
    how would you implement DoT in CS:GO ? enemy is going to 1tap you to the head, while you try to dot him, molotov is the only DoT there is.
    RTS are preety much dps, adding dots doesnt provide anything, but there are still some like storm, that are really skill expressive.
    in MOBAS there are ALOT of dots, in fact some entire champions are designed around it ( Malzahar from league of legends has 3/4 abilities as dots ) and he is perfectly fine.

    condis in gw2 have same counters, they are a must at this point, what stops full toughtness builds from bulldozering metas ? condi, power damage is over the top, and is MUCH better then condi, from pve to pvp ( dunno about wvw dont play there, but its safe to assume that firebrands make condis unplayable ).
    condi adds another thing on top, to keep in mind, if you are incapable of keeping track of them then you should learn or play a different game.

  • Gamble.4580Gamble.4580 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 26, 2019

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @Lilyanna.9361 said:

    • Necro (What can I say? Again, with my limited knowledge, it relies on the team enough. It got slapped with nerfs since scourge was WAY out of hand for too long. Reaper is balanced imo. Core necro is also balanced but the fear chaining..EHHHH, I'm on the fence about it. Big time. I won't say nerf the tests, but keep an eye on their corrupting is all)

    Here is where I disagree. Reaper is not balanced. its chill uptime and its destructive power is way too high. Coupled with quickness and it's just a monster. Reaper needs nerfs, and part of those nerfs lies in Axe 2 on necro and the reaper skills themselves, as well as the AoE ranged skill that can chill and take like half of your health down in one proc. Definitely not balanced at all.

    Chill uptime from Reaper is actually pretty low. Even more so with all the condi clear in the game. The only class that really should notice issues from reapers chill are other necormancers and elementalist. Everything else is hardly effected. I dont even depend on chill in pvp anymore because its so minimal. A scourges cripplel was far more effective than a reapers chill but if you think it needs nerfs by all means take it... i really dont hinge on it lol i dont think most reapers do anymore.

    The destructive power is quite high? But on that note every other class hits equally as hard if not harder and faster. Some classses being able to do it with much more mobility at range and hard defenses and better sustain. But if you protest that Reapers power is too high then ill agree its too high so long as we can agree and understand that this means everyone else's destructive power is also too high if not even higher meaning everyone needs to have their power lowered by the same amount if not more.

    Necromancers axe 2 does quite rather hard if you allow it to scratch you for its full duration that said its the only ranged power weapon if not the only main viable power weapon for necromancer. Considering the great sword is extremely slow and hits modestly hard but certainly not as hard as say a warriors greatsword or a rangers greatsword or has the defensive or mobile utility of either of those yeh... That said if you think the axe 2 is the issue then we must protest that all power weapons in the games need to have their main quick bursting skills reduced down quite a bit. Especially on the power weapons that offer alot more utility along side that damage.

    In terms of the quickness i agree that needs to go that said base reaper shroud cannot stay as slow as it is at its base. Its pretty rough when you have limited mobility and have to walk into melee range only to not be able to complete even your basic auto attack in time to do damage before you take too much damage or the target retreats away. Thats not acceptable. I honestly believe the quickness was not meant to be a long term solution to fixing power reaper's shroud. The proper adjustment should have just been to sped up the shroud by a fair amount (just not to quickness levels)

    Lastly.... I want to know what this ranged aoe skill is that applies chill and takes half of your hp in one proc so i can start using it. As some one who plays reaper alot could really use a skill like that till these changes came in.

    If you are going to point out one of the lower end elites and or professions especially when it comes to terms of power damage and say its too strong when there are much more destructive power builds out there thats saying alot.

    His talking about pealmancer. It plus with staff it’s very strong anti roamer build

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 27, 2019

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    I thought about a long essay about the philosophy of balance and the further I went into it the more and more I realized no one would ever read it. And so I figured I'd just condense a lot of what I'd like to see immediately into small patch notes.

    Thief:
    Nuke condition thief into the ground.
    Nuke Staff/Staff thief into the ground.
    Steal: All damaging traits that feed into steal such as Mug, Serpent's Touch, Bewildering Ambush, should be removed and replaced with something else.
    Infiltrator's Strike: Reduce range to 600.
    Escapist's Fortitude: Internal Cooldown increased to 5 seconds.
    Long Term Goal: Condition thief should be reworked to no longer revolving around a convoluted mess of trait procs that all intertwine with each other and into specific weapon tool kits and specific skill shots it has to run with clear strengths and weaknesses. Even a year later, this video is still relevant.
    Lotus Training should no longer do damage in and of itself. Perhaps it should provide a +20% increased condition damage buff if you actively evade an attack.
    Bounding Dodge should no longer do damage in and of itself. Perhap it should provide a +20% increased power damage buff if you actively evade an attack.
    Long Term Goal: Rework Deadeye towards a more Exodia Deck playstyle that sets up an automatic win condition overtime rather than the immense range burster that can dump 15k damage in under a second on engagement.

    Warrior
    Give Arcing Slice tiered damage like every other burst skill.
    Revenge Counter returns Full Counter to it's prenerf damage.
    Long term goal: Rework Spellbreaker from being just a power crept version of warrior into a specialization that wins by removing what other classes do well, such as allowing spellbreakers to become extremely anti-boon, or anti-condi, or anti ranged ect ect. Both by reworking traits and buffing the meditation skills.

    You wanna take away the functionality of DrDs dodges because they do stuff but leave Warriors unblockable-boon-granting 6k Reckless Dodge in tact?
    Reducing IS to 600 would straight away delete S/D, both condi and power as it did delete D/P. Also you may not realize how very vital Mug is for power thief, both the Heal and to lesser extent the dmg, if anything Mug encourages more skilled gameplay, so you don't waste the heal of Mug as some Thieves just blow Steal right away and thats a free win. I realize you said "replace it" but that would have to be a truly uniquely viable replacement.

    I'm pretty sure the deletion of thief as a whole is the posters agenda as those thief nerfs are ridiculous and are clearly not thought out and are conceived simply out of a dislike for the class in general.

    Everyone recognizes Condi Daredevil is over performing right now. Everyone sees how extremely degenerate Staff/Staff is.

    Things such as reducing Infiltrators Strike's range has been echoed by players such as Vallun, who I doubt is trying to destroy thieves because he doesn't like them.

    Trimming stuff like Mug, Serpents Touch, Bewildering Ambush, come from a personal philosophy that instant cast animationless damage, even condition damage, just shouldn't exist and should be culled. And I include mesmer stuff such as Mantra of Pain, Jaunt.

    The problem with Condition Thief is that unlike other condition builds, all of thief's weapon sets are really only designed to be really strong from a power perspective and naturally very few of the skills have damaging conditions built into them. The way it becomes condition thief is entirely from traits. And traiting so that specific skills do condition damage or augmenting their Condi damage further is one thing. But condition thief only directly augments Steal, a skill that has absolutely no business doing 9k in poison damage and enough confusion to do 1.2k damage on use due to its instant nature with as little counter play as possible. To put this into perspective a lot of people think the pistol Phantasm does too much bleed damage but not only does the mesmer have a cast animation the Phantasm has a 3s channel while it ramps up the level of damage that condition thief can do instantly. Confusing Images takes 3seconds when you include the precast to ramp up that many confusion stacks.

    And the other traits it uses tend to random proc off any skill on any weapon set. They can proc off daggers, swords, shortbow, pistols, rifles. Getting hit with a dagger 4 might be 1k poke damage in condis, or it might be 4k Condi bomb because a trait procd causing all of them to proc because they all feed into each other.

    Arenanet needs to sit down with thief and decide regarding dagger and sword "Okay this one is the dedicated condition weapon. This one is the dedicated power weapon."

    And if they won't do that they need to make all the on proc traits less broad and more specific and take all the condition damage steal can be buffed with away from steal and move it into specific weapon skills.

    Rather than Steal having 6 stacks of confusion, have a trait that gives Flanking Strike and Larcenous Strike 2 stacks of confusion.

    Rather than being able to stuff Steal with 9k poison damage, have a trait that gives Heartseeker 4k in bleed stacks and if the target is below 50% health 6k damage in poison stacks instead.

    And of course addressing Sword2+Dodge spam.

    That way there's a lot more counter play to condition thief and how it does damage to you aside from just climbing into stuff it can't port to. Players would have actual skills to look out for and counter. And it's also a lot more precise and reliable for skilled thief players to land.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 26, 2019

    @Saharo Gravewind.5120 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @Revolution.5409 said:
    The problem is that in PvP there are professions that do too many things with a single build and are Firebrand, Holosmith and SB.

    Would anyone explain to me why pets should get nerfs?

    Because when a rock gazelle can legit smack you for 10k, on top of all of your high damaging strikes to add, it tends to get a bit unfair. I mean, why should that be a thing at all? hitting 10k with a pet? No thanks. Nerf everything, all the things that are overperforming currently, bring it down. Let the fire of justice rain down hard.

    High damaging strikes? Any ranger that is hitting you that hard on non-burst strikes is going to be be glassy, so I wouldn't say its unfair. DPS rangers can't clear condi. Even when it is a burst, if it's a DPS dealing ranger, he's probably running GS. Which has arguably the most predictable and easy to read animations.

    Holo or Spellbreak can hit you for a huge amount too, and they have other annoying spec mechanics that are more OP than a pet. And not AI-based. They'll hit you for that 10k and then each of their individual strikes will actually be /high damaging/.

    Pet nerfs would hurt all ranger builds. Absolutely no point.

    i think the dmg is ok, but pets need to be disabled if someone kills it, pets follow you to hell even if you are stealthed and you can't fight back because if you kill it the ranger will just change the pet and he will be ressed, on top of that you need to waste alot of skills cd to kill it since they are like elite monsters, i think they need to remove this ability to ress the pet and if the pet dies the ranger should be unable to use it, until the ranger dies, this will force rangers play more careful and strategically with pets not just press f1 and let the pet do all the work

  • Bazooka.3590Bazooka.3590 Member ✭✭✭

    After the expansions the whole game started to gravitate toward a class - anticlass or build - antibuild structure but this metamorphoses had been stranded halfway.
    It is not a fully grown class - anticlass structure right now but the classes are really not balanced to eachother.
    With some classes almost impossible to fight against other classes and the game doesn't communicate that one class is stronger against a certain class but weaker against another one.
    I think this is the main problem with the game balance.
    You can make a class-anticlass structure or a fully balanced one (where all classes have similar chances to fight eachother) but you have to choose because this in-between situation right now is not a viable way.

  • @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Greyjoy.5167 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    Holosmith

    Traits/Utilities/Healing Skills/Elites
    1. Healing Turret's cast time needs to be increased to 1s minimum. 3/4s base with perma quickness is basically impossible to reactively interrupt. Having frequent access to stab coupled with an extremely powerful, reliable heal provides Holosmiths a very easy way to consistently top themselves off. This should be looked at.
    2. Lock On (the reveal trait) should not be DOUBLE proc 12s reveal on a 25s cd that gives fury and applies 20 stacks of vuln.
    3. Kinetic Battery needs to have it's quickness and super speed duration reduced to 3 seconds and increase the maximum stacks to 10 so that it takes Holos 14 seconds to cycle this trait rather than 7 seconds.
    4. Heat Therapy needs it's healing cut to 1/3 of it's current value (from 65 health per unit of heat lost to 22). You nerfed Rugged Growth (another minor trait) on ranger because it was healing around 600 hps on MENDERS amulet while we had protection.
      • Heat Therapy provides a constant 652 healing per SECOND while at max stacks and causes Vent Exhaust to heal for 800 health every time they dodge. Keep in mind, this insane healing does not require ANY healing power investment asides from the (negligible) amount received from Leadership Runes.
      • In other words, with permanent vigor and Heat Therapy, a Holo can heal up to 9000 health every 10 seconds (6520 passively through Heat Therapy, dodging 3x = 2400 healing with Vent Exhaust).
      • This does NOT include healing from Healing Turret. The health regen on Tools Holo is absolutely insane. It's literally more than a warrior's Healing Signet + max stacks of Adrenal Health (the latter of which requires the warrior to land their burst skills) which only heal for a combined 743 hps in comparison.
    5. Invigorating Speed should give 3 seconds of vigor when gaining swiftness on a 10 second ICD. In it's current state, it gives Holos permanent vigor with very little investment.
    6. Toss Elixir S needs it's stealth duration reduced to 3 seconds. The current iteration gives the Holos a LONG 6 second stealth every 30 seconds that is almost impossible to prevent. This single toolbelt skill lets them reset extremely frequently.
    7. Elixir U needs it's cooldown increased from 40s base to 50s.
    8. Prime Light Beam needs a louder sound cue and needs to have the animation cancel bug fixed (the beam animation shows but doesn't do damage).
    Photon Forge
    1. Holo Leap needs it's cooldown increased to 4 seconds. Spamming this ability gives the Holo incredible amounts of mobility and damage on a short, 2 second cooldown leap finisher. It moves them 450 range on a 2s cd. In 10 seconds, this enables the Holo to move 2250 range on top of their already (near permanent) super speed uptime with Kinetic Battery.
    2. Corona Burst should apply 2 stacks of stab on the initial pulse with 3 targets max. Currently, it is 1 stack per target hit (max 5) on each pulse. This single skill can give the Holo up to 10 stacks of stability for 4 seconds every 6 seconds and requires 2 defensive skills to avoid.
    3. The fact that a Holo can transform and still retain access to ALL of their utilities/toolbelt skills/healing/elite is very strong but disabling them or even just the toolbelt skills might be too much(?).
    4. Light Strike -> Bright Slash -> Flash Cutter need their ranges reduced from 240 to 130. They are nearly twice as long as the ranges of (every?) auto attack chain in the game on top of the fact that they can out-trade nearly everything in melee range with them as well.
    Weapons
    1. Hip Shot needs to have a 1s cast time up from .84s. This skill is a laser beam when the Holo has quickness (which means all the time) and the cast time is so quick that literally tracks a target that entered stealth for 2-3 shots.
    2. Net Shot's immobilize should be reduced to 1 second and the cast time increased to 1/2 seconds.
    3. Blunderbuss needs a longer cast time.
    4. Overcharged Shot needs a longer windup and animation similar to a ranger's Point Blank Shot.

    Bruh you are delusional.
    Pick 1-2 of what you proposed and its gonna be fine.

    All of these can drop at once and Holosmith, both rifle and Prot Holo, would still be an A-B tier build for ranked.

    3/4 of these changes are targeted core, not holo.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 26, 2019

    @Greyjoy.5167 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Greyjoy.5167 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    Holosmith

    Traits/Utilities/Healing Skills/Elites
    1. Healing Turret's cast time needs to be increased to 1s minimum. 3/4s base with perma quickness is basically impossible to reactively interrupt. Having frequent access to stab coupled with an extremely powerful, reliable heal provides Holosmiths a very easy way to consistently top themselves off. This should be looked at.
    2. Lock On (the reveal trait) should not be DOUBLE proc 12s reveal on a 25s cd that gives fury and applies 20 stacks of vuln.
    3. Kinetic Battery needs to have it's quickness and super speed duration reduced to 3 seconds and increase the maximum stacks to 10 so that it takes Holos 14 seconds to cycle this trait rather than 7 seconds.
    4. Heat Therapy needs it's healing cut to 1/3 of it's current value (from 65 health per unit of heat lost to 22). You nerfed Rugged Growth (another minor trait) on ranger because it was healing around 600 hps on MENDERS amulet while we had protection.
      • Heat Therapy provides a constant 652 healing per SECOND while at max stacks and causes Vent Exhaust to heal for 800 health every time they dodge. Keep in mind, this insane healing does not require ANY healing power investment asides from the (negligible) amount received from Leadership Runes.
      • In other words, with permanent vigor and Heat Therapy, a Holo can heal up to 9000 health every 10 seconds (6520 passively through Heat Therapy, dodging 3x = 2400 healing with Vent Exhaust).
      • This does NOT include healing from Healing Turret. The health regen on Tools Holo is absolutely insane. It's literally more than a warrior's Healing Signet + max stacks of Adrenal Health (the latter of which requires the warrior to land their burst skills) which only heal for a combined 743 hps in comparison.
    5. Invigorating Speed should give 3 seconds of vigor when gaining swiftness on a 10 second ICD. In it's current state, it gives Holos permanent vigor with very little investment.
    6. Toss Elixir S needs it's stealth duration reduced to 3 seconds. The current iteration gives the Holos a LONG 6 second stealth every 30 seconds that is almost impossible to prevent. This single toolbelt skill lets them reset extremely frequently.
    7. Elixir U needs it's cooldown increased from 40s base to 50s.
    8. Prime Light Beam needs a louder sound cue and needs to have the animation cancel bug fixed (the beam animation shows but doesn't do damage).
    Photon Forge
    1. Holo Leap needs it's cooldown increased to 4 seconds. Spamming this ability gives the Holo incredible amounts of mobility and damage on a short, 2 second cooldown leap finisher. It moves them 450 range on a 2s cd. In 10 seconds, this enables the Holo to move 2250 range on top of their already (near permanent) super speed uptime with Kinetic Battery.
    2. Corona Burst should apply 2 stacks of stab on the initial pulse with 3 targets max. Currently, it is 1 stack per target hit (max 5) on each pulse. This single skill can give the Holo up to 10 stacks of stability for 4 seconds every 6 seconds and requires 2 defensive skills to avoid.
    3. The fact that a Holo can transform and still retain access to ALL of their utilities/toolbelt skills/healing/elite is very strong but disabling them or even just the toolbelt skills might be too much(?).
    4. Light Strike -> Bright Slash -> Flash Cutter need their ranges reduced from 240 to 130. They are nearly twice as long as the ranges of (every?) auto attack chain in the game on top of the fact that they can out-trade nearly everything in melee range with them as well.
    Weapons
    1. Hip Shot needs to have a 1s cast time up from .84s. This skill is a laser beam when the Holo has quickness (which means all the time) and the cast time is so quick that literally tracks a target that entered stealth for 2-3 shots.
    2. Net Shot's immobilize should be reduced to 1 second and the cast time increased to 1/2 seconds.
    3. Blunderbuss needs a longer cast time.
    4. Overcharged Shot needs a longer windup and animation similar to a ranger's Point Blank Shot.

    Bruh you are delusional.
    Pick 1-2 of what you proposed and its gonna be fine.

    All of these can drop at once and Holosmith, both rifle and Prot Holo, would still be an A-B tier build for ranked.

    3/4 of these changes are targeted core, not holo.

    A lot of stuff about core engineer is over powered and unjustifiable. Every class has dealt with nerfs to core aspects despite the elite specialization over performing. Heck reasonably balanced or under powered builds getting caught in crossfire because they shared aspects with other overpowered builds have been happening since before elite specializations were ever a thing. Core elements have never been off limits for nerfing.

    The dirty little secret about core engineer is that it has some of if not the best traits and utilities in the game, alongside traits that give outrageously good sustain, cleansing, damage buffs, and certainly one of if not the most consistently useful and high HPS healing skill in the game in the form of Healing Turret. But what holds it back is that engineer is that aside from Rifle, they just don't have good options for weapon including the kits. And in many ways engineers designed expecting you to take at least one kit and none of the kits are complete full weapon kits the way other classes have. They might have 1-2, maybe 3 really good skills but they're never a complete package with a clear set of self synergy and a strategy.

    First obvious issue is that all of the kits are weirdly and anachronistically indecisive about whether they are power or condition based. As a warrior if you want to play power you have greatsword, and you have axe. If you want to play condi you play longbow. If you want to be hybrid you have sword. Compare Warrior Greatsword to any of the engineer kits. You obviously have the autoattack which is solid dps, you have the 2 skill which is a massive damage dealing ability. The three skill is an on demand evade on a low cooldown. The four skill is a ranged cripple. The five skill is a gap closer. It's an excellent kit overall. The only thing it doesn't have is a way to stun people into your primary damage dealing ability, but there are utilities and other weapon kits that can help you do that.

    The only core engineer kit that's on that level of wellroundedness is rife. Look at pistol+pistol. The most you have for active defenses is Static Shock's blind and Glue Shot and nothing to help you position or kite. That's a weapon set where glue shot could definitely use a leap back/evade. The kit is extremely single-minded and inflexible in it's approach. Now you could go Pistol+Shield and shield is a good offhand but it leaves you without a good option for a high damage skillshot losing flamethrower. Whereas other professions like Warrior can go Axe+Shield, or mesmer can go Scepter+Torch, or Elementalist Scepter+Focus, or guardian with Sword+Focus and have both useful defenses and still have good primary damaging skills on top of the utility and capacity to set up bursts provided by the offhand.

    And that's not even a kit. Bomb Kit and Grendade kit both have that same level of single mindedness with no quality of life just like pistol+pistol has but both kits are also oddly conflicted on whether they want to be power or condition damage based and the way the deal damage, either through100% point blank AOE or 100% ground targeted ranged attacks isn't ideal in the slightest. Tool Kit has excellent utility on the 4-5 but you'll never kill anyone with the 1,2,3 skills or even really soften them up for a real burst with a different weapon set or kit. Elixir Gun is one of the better ones but it's also confused as most of the kit revolves around condition damage except it's highest damage skill which is 100% power. Elixir Gun mostly revolves around conditions most of it's skills, but it's highest damage attack is 100% power based.

    It's no coincidence that when Heart of Thorns and Path of Fire dropped and both elite specializations gave Scrapper and Holosmith weapon sets that are actually a lot more well rounded and complete compared to what was previously possible both specializations, Hammer and Photon Forge, engineers were able to use their new weapon kits alongside the inherent excellency of it's core traitlines to be absolutely top of the line builds for the expansions. And Scrapper would have done better during Path of Fire prior to the initial rework that made it god tier if not for Holosmith outshining it.

    You refine engineer kits to be more well rounded, with more self synergy, and away from halfbaked 2012 design philosphy you're going to massively improve what core engineer is capable of regardless of a handful of nerfs that do deserve to happen to some utilities and traits and even rifle.

    So yes. There are aspects of core engineer that deserve to be nerfed, and just because the class has other issues impacting it's performance doesn't mean it those massively over tuned aspects don't deserve to be nerfed. And dealing with holosmith including nerfing overtuned aspects of core engineer is more important and impacts more players positively than letting holosmith run wild, and both core and holosmith nerfs are needed to get it inline.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 26, 2019

    @mortrialus.3062 said :
    Mirage Cloak: This is no longer usable while while under crowd control effects aside from daze.

    @Don Vega Van Kain.9842 said :
    Evade while CCed is unfair.

    @Lilyanna.9361 said :

    • Mirage (Their Condi application and power are fine, but their ability to produce an absurd amount of visual noise and bypass being CC'd through their dodge needs to stop. Give them clones or the ability to break though cc on dodge, not both)

    Again where is the core mesmer build without stealth who is viable ? Because a mirage who can't evade when he want isn't more than a core build with no stealth(PU).

    @Crab Fear.1624 said :
    Probably should get rid of IH, that's like damage on dodge lol.

    Damage on dodge who can be rupted, blocked with obvious animation and max 4k damage (average 2k5.) often on the form of damage over time seems finer than what exist on someone else.

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said :
    If thats the case i demand life force consumption for reaper be reverted immediately, skill 5 should be a reveal like is in core shroud skill 2 should blink you to your target and the auto attack should fire arc projectile if the target is not in range lets just ignore profession mechanic trade offs for the sake of defending your main class and pretend playstyle is the trade off.

    In that case I demand to have ambush on shatter instead of on evade then we can talk about no counterpart.

    I would actually welcome that change if clones only ambushed by using shatter command. IT gives the Mirage unique shatters and a trade off from core mesmer.
    Put ambush attacks with bonus effects on shatters and remove infinite horizon from the game all together. Clone ambush attacks are now balanced by shatter cooldowns
    This is PROBABLY how it should have been from the get go.
    Mirage cloak shouldnt be doing so much when comboed with a trait like IH while providing freedome to cast without interruption.

    I'm not sure you imagine the survival buff of not having to evade to do damage and the obvious "mesmer op unkillable" post who will come with this change.
    And sorry but this is a gameplay change suggestion as opposed to a counterpart to highlight that I dunno why you biased your necro comparison while mixing the two when comparing to mesmer.
    Not to say that shatter will provide more overall ambush than current dodge uptime can...

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    I've played plenty of power mesmer, both core and mirage. Losing Mirage Cloak while CC'd isn't going to break Mirage. Mesmer is pretty spoiled for stunbreak options between Blink and Signet of Midnight. And even plenty of nonstunbreak options like Phase Retreat, Jaunt and Illusionary Ambush to move you out of danger while stunned and even things like F3 and F4, Mantra of Distraction can save you if you end up stunned.

    False Oasis is just a biiiit too good of a heal for the sheer utility of it. It can be 100% covered by Mirage Cloak making it nearly impossible to interrupt, which is bad enough. But it grants both an evade through a mirror and enough vigor to get a bar of endurance after the 5 seconds the heal spends ticking. So using mirage Cloak isn't even a real investment of resources to ensure the heal happens. Shave a bit of the healing off because it is a bit too potent for all it's utility, 15% to 20%. Extend the cast time so everyone has an opportunity to interrupt it even with Mirage Cloak. It'd still be an amazing healing skill.

    Dodge while stunned and Elusive Mind are fundamentally toxic interactions. And losing Dodge while stunned won't dumpster mirage like losing Illusionary Persona did for Chrono.

    I don't know that now power mesmer use staff, didn't see that since vanilla shatter.
    List me the class heal who can be rupt without be covered.
    Again, and for the moment nobody answer me :
    Where is the core mesmer build without stealth who is viable ? Because a mirage who can't evade when he want isn't more than a core build with no stealth(PU).
    Once you prove me that someone can perform with this, we can talk about reworking mirage cloak.

  • @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Saharo Gravewind.5120 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @Revolution.5409 said:
    The problem is that in PvP there are professions that do too many things with a single build and are Firebrand, Holosmith and SB.

    Would anyone explain to me why pets should get nerfs?

    Because when a rock gazelle can legit smack you for 10k, on top of all of your high damaging strikes to add, it tends to get a bit unfair. I mean, why should that be a thing at all? hitting 10k with a pet? No thanks. Nerf everything, all the things that are overperforming currently, bring it down. Let the fire of justice rain down hard.

    High damaging strikes? Any ranger that is hitting you that hard on non-burst strikes is going to be be glassy, so I wouldn't say its unfair. DPS rangers can't clear condi. Even when it is a burst, if it's a DPS dealing ranger, he's probably running GS. Which has arguably the most predictable and easy to read animations.

    Holo or Spellbreak can hit you for a huge amount too, and they have other annoying spec mechanics that are more OP than a pet. And not AI-based. They'll hit you for that 10k and then each of their individual strikes will actually be /high damaging/.

    Pet nerfs would hurt all ranger builds. Absolutely no point.

    i think the dmg is ok, but pets need to be disabled if someone kills it, pets follow you to hell even if you are stealthed and you can't fight back because if you kill it the ranger will just change the pet and he will be ressed, on top of that you need to waste alot of skills cd to kill it since they are like elite monsters, i think they need to remove this ability to ress the pet and if the pet dies the ranger should be unable to use it, until the ranger dies, this will force rangers play more careful and strategically with pets not just press f1 and let the pet do all the work

    Sorry but this is absolutely ridiculous. I understand that many do not like this mechanic, but no other profession can be deprived of their mechanic and ranger should not make a difference.
    We are talking about a mechanic commanded by an AI who is not allowed to control, who is unable to dodge or avoid fields that cannot follow the character by jumping or avoiding obstacles, I look forward to a reworking of this.

    It's impossible to play with strategy with something you don't control, you should try it.

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 26, 2019

    @Revolution.5409 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Saharo Gravewind.5120 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @Revolution.5409 said:
    The problem is that in PvP there are professions that do too many things with a single build and are Firebrand, Holosmith and SB.

    Would anyone explain to me why pets should get nerfs?

    Because when a rock gazelle can legit smack you for 10k, on top of all of your high damaging strikes to add, it tends to get a bit unfair. I mean, why should that be a thing at all? hitting 10k with a pet? No thanks. Nerf everything, all the things that are overperforming currently, bring it down. Let the fire of justice rain down hard.

    High damaging strikes? Any ranger that is hitting you that hard on non-burst strikes is going to be be glassy, so I wouldn't say its unfair. DPS rangers can't clear condi. Even when it is a burst, if it's a DPS dealing ranger, he's probably running GS. Which has arguably the most predictable and easy to read animations.

    Holo or Spellbreak can hit you for a huge amount too, and they have other annoying spec mechanics that are more OP than a pet. And not AI-based. They'll hit you for that 10k and then each of their individual strikes will actually be /high damaging/.

    Pet nerfs would hurt all ranger builds. Absolutely no point.

    i think the dmg is ok, but pets need to be disabled if someone kills it, pets follow you to hell even if you are stealthed and you can't fight back because if you kill it the ranger will just change the pet and he will be ressed, on top of that you need to waste alot of skills cd to kill it since they are like elite monsters, i think they need to remove this ability to ress the pet and if the pet dies the ranger should be unable to use it, until the ranger dies, this will force rangers play more careful and strategically with pets not just press f1 and let the pet do all the work

    Sorry but this is absolutely ridiculous. I understand that many do not like this mechanic, but no other profession can be deprived of their mechanic and ranger should not make a difference.
    We are talking about a mechanic commanded by an AI who is not allowed to control, who is unable to dodge or avoid fields that cannot follow the character by jumping or avoiding obstacles, I look forward to a reworking of this.

    It's impossible to play with strategy with something you don't control, you should try it.

    Rangers have 2 pets so even if someone kill one they can still have backup pet, so it's not unfair neither ridiculous because rangers don't really need their pets, if the pets dies the ranger are still strong as any other class, pets in gw2 are like an extra to make rangers even more stronger, if you kill a pet on pvp they need to stay killed not ressed by just changing the pet, what is obvious unfair to players that wasted all their cooldown to kill the pet.

    That's the point you control the pet maybe you don't know it because everyone just press f1 and let the pet do all the job.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 26, 2019

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    what is obvious unfair to players that wasted all their cooldown to kill the pet.

    There's your problem.

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    what is obvious unfair to players that wasted all their cooldown to kill the pet.

    There's your problem.

    yeah, you should not kill the pet and that's what started the discussion here, you can't fight back and the pet will kill you.

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I would like to see condition powercreep addressed.

    The long-term objective should be to have most conditions be damage over time again - which means, reduce stacks, damage modifiers etc. and change durations. Conditions should aim for not killing anyone under ten seconds or so, even without any cleanses. Cover conditions like on condi thief, condi mirage and scourge need to be reduced.
    At the same time, cleanses need to be heavily nerfed as well. Make both conditions and cleanses meaningful again - activating a 3-condi-cleanse should be well timed until after you see your enemy unload his conditions. Stuff like that. The amount of cleanses from firebrands and weavers should be reduced too, packed into fewer longer CD skills.

    For example: While it should not be possible for condi thief to apply 6(?) conditions within basically no time (S2 and dodge). At the same time, water weaver cycling through water and air is basically immune even to these condi bombs. Anyone without condi clears dies in seconds against the first, while even powercrept condi classes can't do anything against the powercrept cleansing bots.

    So: I would like to see condi builds be about 1-2 damaging condition(s) and 1-2 cover conditions. Cleanses must be reduced with CDs, number of condis cleansed and maybe internal CDs.

    About the same goes for power damage, but I feel like conditions/cleanses are even worse and made many many builds completely impossible to be played.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 26, 2019

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    what is obvious unfair to players that wasted all their cooldown to kill the pet.

    There's your problem.

    yeah, you should not kill the pet and that's what started the discussion here, you can't fight back and the pet will kill you.

    The only pet that hits remotely hard is Gazelle and it's attacks are telegraphed. If you're dying to an AI that just runs at you auto attacking, you need to get better at the game.

  • Lilyanna.9361Lilyanna.9361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said :
    Mirage Cloak: This is no longer usable while while under crowd control effects aside from daze.

    @Don Vega Van Kain.9842 said :
    Evade while CCed is unfair.

    @Lilyanna.9361 said :

    • Mirage (Their Condi application and power are fine, but their ability to produce an absurd amount of visual noise and bypass being CC'd through their dodge needs to stop. Give them clones or the ability to break though cc on dodge, not both)

    Again where is the core mesmer build without stealth who is viable ? Because a mirage who can't evade when he want isn't more than a core build with no stealth(PU).

    @Crab Fear.1624 said :
    Probably should get rid of IH, that's like damage on dodge lol.

    Damage on dodge who can be rupted, blocked with obvious animation and max 4k damage (average 2k5.) often on the form of damage over time seems finer than what exist on someone else.

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said :
    If thats the case i demand life force consumption for reaper be reverted immediately, skill 5 should be a reveal like is in core shroud skill 2 should blink you to your target and the auto attack should fire arc projectile if the target is not in range lets just ignore profession mechanic trade offs for the sake of defending your main class and pretend playstyle is the trade off.

    In that case I demand to have ambush on shatter instead of on evade then we can talk about no counterpart.

    I would actually welcome that change if clones only ambushed by using shatter command. IT gives the Mirage unique shatters and a trade off from core mesmer.
    Put ambush attacks with bonus effects on shatters and remove infinite horizon from the game all together. Clone ambush attacks are now balanced by shatter cooldowns
    This is PROBABLY how it should have been from the get go.
    Mirage cloak shouldnt be doing so much when comboed with a trait like IH while providing freedome to cast without interruption.

    I'm not sure you imagine the survival buff of not having to evade to do damage and the obvious "mesmer op unkillable" post who will come with this change.
    And sorry but this is a gameplay change suggestion as opposed to a counterpart to highlight that I dunno why you biased your necro comparison while mixing the two when comparing to mesmer.
    Not to say that shatter will provide more overall ambush than current dodge uptime can...

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    I've played plenty of power mesmer, both core and mirage. Losing Mirage Cloak while CC'd isn't going to break Mirage. Mesmer is pretty spoiled for stunbreak options between Blink and Signet of Midnight. And even plenty of nonstunbreak options like Phase Retreat, Jaunt and Illusionary Ambush to move you out of danger while stunned and even things like F3 and F4, Mantra of Distraction can save you if you end up stunned.

    False Oasis is just a biiiit too good of a heal for the sheer utility of it. It can be 100% covered by Mirage Cloak making it nearly impossible to interrupt, which is bad enough. But it grants both an evade through a mirror and enough vigor to get a bar of endurance after the 5 seconds the heal spends ticking. So using mirage Cloak isn't even a real investment of resources to ensure the heal happens. Shave a bit of the healing off because it is a bit too potent for all it's utility, 15% to 20%. Extend the cast time so everyone has an opportunity to interrupt it even with Mirage Cloak. It'd still be an amazing healing skill.

    Dodge while stunned and Elusive Mind are fundamentally toxic interactions. And losing Dodge while stunned won't dumpster mirage like losing Illusionary Persona did for Chrono.

    I don't know that now power mesmer use staff, didn't see that since vanilla shatter.
    List me the class heal who can be rupt without be covered.
    Again, and for the moment nobody answer me :
    Where is the core mesmer build without stealth who is viable ? Because a mirage who can't evade when he want isn't more than a core build with no stealth(PU).
    Once you prove me that someone can perform with this, we can talk about reworking mirage cloak.

    First of all, let me address you since you want to have a fit and none of the other mesmer mains seem to gotten angry over my comment.

    I said get rid of STUN BREAK ON DODGE. The reason I also mentioned clones is they produce TOO MUCH. I'm not saying gut it. I'm not saying make clones useless, when I mean choose between the two I meant pick having creating a massive amount of clones and forgo the stunbreak on dodge, OR forgo creating all of those extra clones and ambushes for the stunbreak. Keep your shatters, keep your stealth, I DON'T HAVE AN ISSUE WITH YOUR POWER. I have an issue with your class having a dodge that bypasses anyway to lock it down because it's supposely squishy. Thief is just as squishy and has a 'normal' dodge (they get swiftness or they do Condi damage.

    I know how to find the mesmer, fight the mesmer, whatever. My main issue is you guys bypassing a BASIC MECHANIC because your dodge, for some reason, has to be special and not get locked down. Heck, I complain more about this than your ambushes because honestly, if a lot mesmer 'mains' could not stunbreak on dodge than a lot of people would not try to cheese on the class so much.

    Okay? Take a breath. I know plenty of people in here that are screaming to take away Fresh Air ele damage (lol at those people) and the Weaver dodges, but I'm not going to hop on the actual people that listed reasonable tweaks/minor nerfs to not make Weaver into a brainless Condi not like the rest of the classes are turning into.

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 26, 2019

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    what is obvious unfair to players that wasted all their cooldown to kill the pet.

    There's your problem.

    yeah, you should not kill the pet and that's what started the discussion here, you can't fight back and the pet will kill you.

    The only pet that hits remotely hard is Gazelle and it's attacks are telegraphed. If you're dying to an AI that just runs at you auto attacking, you need to get better at the game.

    so? that's your argument? get better at game? if the pet does nothing and its so easy to avoid why do you even need it? the problem is when he going to hit you, most of the times is when you are on low/half life hiding from the ranger at some pillar/wall and the pet will come to you and you can't fight back, if you kill the pet the ranger will come to you since you wasted all your cds, if you stay there the pet will kill you and if you run the ranger will hit you from 2k range doing 15k rapid fire attack, if you are playing a stealth class the pet will hit you revealing you.
    so if you want a competitive game play if you kill the pet in situations like that they should stay dead, not just ressed by changing it to reset the whole fight

  • @Swagg.9236 said:

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Revenant:
    Inhibit Revenant's ability to chain together literally 10+ seconds of block and evade back to back with no pause.

    Hard disagree. If revenant is “evading/blocking” for 10s straight it’s spending all of its energy on doing that at the expense of losing most of its damage output (note not all, just the majority) and will end up dead once it runs out of energy. Meanwhile you have plenty of other classes able to put out significant damage pressure and block/evade/invuln without having to really trade off for it. Spellbreaker/Mirage for example.

    Good thing that rev can just press F1 or F2 for more energy.

    And then you’re out of most defensive options at that point even by “pressing f1” and f2 is core which is generally not as good as herald so the extra 25 energy shouldn’t be factored in when looking to nerf the class since it’s not overperforming

  • SehferViega.8725SehferViega.8725 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 26, 2019

    @Vancho.8750 said:
    I think that the NErf nerf NErf threads are just a red flag that something is not working properly and needs some looking into, how was it, People might not know what is wrong, but they sure do know that something is off.

    That for sure, I'm the first one that says "there is something wrong in some build/classes".
    But read some post and tell me why some builds, instead of being balanced, should be "nerfed to the ground, nuked down, cancelled"?
    Build diversity is part of the fun.

    Condi Mirage, Staff Thief, S/D condi daredevil, rifle Holosmith, Spellbreaker are not so hard to face, If you know what are you doing.. why kill all those builds? Just adjust the traits that create more problems or are a little unfair.
    Kill a build only creates new and bigger imbalances.

    IMHO anyway, If you don't know where the problem is, you shouldn't ask the destruction of everything that you are unable to easy win.

  • dDuff.3860dDuff.3860 Member ✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    what is obvious unfair to players that wasted all their cooldown to kill the pet.

    There's your problem.

    yeah, you should not kill the pet and that's what started the discussion here, you can't fight back and the pet will kill you.

    The only pet that hits remotely hard is Gazelle and it's attacks are telegraphed. If you're dying to an AI that just runs at you auto attacking, you need to get better at the game.

    It's attacks aren't telegraphed, pls, don't say this, smokescale knockdown is telegraphed, gazelle just strikes you (me) for 8-12k all of a sudden.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    what is obvious unfair to players that wasted all their cooldown to kill the pet.

    There's your problem.

    yeah, you should not kill the pet and that's what started the discussion here, you can't fight back and the pet will kill you.

    The only pet that hits remotely hard is Gazelle and it's attacks are telegraphed. If you're dying to an AI that just runs at you auto attacking, you need to get better at the game.

    so? that's your argument? get better at game? if the pet does nothing and its so easy to avoid why do you even need it? the problem is when he going to hit you, most of the times is when you are on low/half life hiding from the ranger at some pillar/wall and the pet will come to you and you can't fight back, if you kill the pet the ranger will come to you since you wasted all your cds, if you stay there the pet will kill you and if you run the ranger will hit you from 2k range doing 15k rapid fire attack, if you are playing a stealth class the pet will hit you revealing you.
    so if you want a competitive game play if you kill the pet in situations like that they should stay dead, not just ressed by changing it to reset the whole fight

    Yes, that's my argument. The fact that you actually believe pets track and reveal stealthed targets upon hitting them is proof enough that you have a LOT of room to improve.

    Second, if the ranger is hitting 15k Rapid Fires it means he's running full glass and you're sitting there eating every shot. It also means you're letting the ranger stay at max range and free cast.

    Third, you can literally avoid 90% of the pet's damage through movement alone.

    Fourth, trying to kill the pet is exactly that. A waste of cooldowns.

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    what is obvious unfair to players that wasted all their cooldown to kill the pet.

    There's your problem.

    yeah, you should not kill the pet and that's what started the discussion here, you can't fight back and the pet will kill you.

    The only pet that hits remotely hard is Gazelle and it's attacks are telegraphed. If you're dying to an AI that just runs at you auto attacking, you need to get better at the game.

    so? that's your argument? get better at game? if the pet does nothing and its so easy to avoid why do you even need it? the problem is when he going to hit you, most of the times is when you are on low/half life hiding from the ranger at some pillar/wall and the pet will come to you and you can't fight back, if you kill the pet the ranger will come to you since you wasted all your cds, if you stay there the pet will kill you and if you run the ranger will hit you from 2k range doing 15k rapid fire attack, if you are playing a stealth class the pet will hit you revealing you.
    so if you want a competitive game play if you kill the pet in situations like that they should stay dead, not just ressed by changing it to reset the whole fight

    Yes, that's my argument. The fact that you actually believe pets track and reveal stealthed targets upon hitting them is proof enough that you have a LOT of room to improve.

    Second, if the ranger is hitting 15k Rapid Fires it means he's running full glass and you're sitting there eating every shot. It also means you're letting the ranger stay at max range and free cast.

    Third, you can literally avoid 90% of the pet's damage through movement alone.

    Fourth, trying to kill the pet is exactly that. A waste of cooldowns.

    big facepalm, let's end here

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @dDuff.3860 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    what is obvious unfair to players that wasted all their cooldown to kill the pet.

    There's your problem.

    yeah, you should not kill the pet and that's what started the discussion here, you can't fight back and the pet will kill you.

    The only pet that hits remotely hard is Gazelle and it's attacks are telegraphed. If you're dying to an AI that just runs at you auto attacking, you need to get better at the game.

    It's attacks aren't telegraphed, pls, don't say this, smokescale knockdown is telegraphed, gazelle just strikes you (me) for 8-12k all of a sudden.

    Oh hey did you ever get your coaching thing set up?

    Yeah the attacks are pretty telegraphed. The two hard hitting ones are the charge and the f2. The charge has a windup where the Gazelle stands still and lifts it's leg a few times before running forwards. The f2 requires specific setups to land because it won't connect if the target is simply running in the opposite direction. To avoid the f2, watch for immobilizes/dazes/pet swaps to Gazelle and get ready to dodge. The Smokescale knockdown isn't any more telegraphed than the Gazelle attacks. If you're getting hit suddenly for 8-12k, it means the ranger landed and interrupt to proc Moment of Clarity, used Maul to buff the Gazelle's next attack, and pet swap to Gazelle simultaneously and use f2.

    Now, this is coming from a ranger main BUT I play every class and I find it pretty easy to avoid the pets. If you want I can log on to EU and show you some of the common setups for Gazelle if that'd help.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 26, 2019

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    what is obvious unfair to players that wasted all their cooldown to kill the pet.

    There's your problem.

    yeah, you should not kill the pet and that's what started the discussion here, you can't fight back and the pet will kill you.

    The only pet that hits remotely hard is Gazelle and it's attacks are telegraphed. If you're dying to an AI that just runs at you auto attacking, you need to get better at the game.

    so? that's your argument? get better at game? if the pet does nothing and its so easy to avoid why do you even need it? the problem is when he going to hit you, most of the times is when you are on low/half life hiding from the ranger at some pillar/wall and the pet will come to you and you can't fight back, if you kill the pet the ranger will come to you since you wasted all your cds, if you stay there the pet will kill you and if you run the ranger will hit you from 2k range doing 15k rapid fire attack, if you are playing a stealth class the pet will hit you revealing you.
    so if you want a competitive game play if you kill the pet in situations like that they should stay dead, not just ressed by changing it to reset the whole fight

    Yes, that's my argument. The fact that you actually believe pets track and reveal stealthed targets upon hitting them is proof enough that you have a LOT of room to improve.

    Second, if the ranger is hitting 15k Rapid Fires it means he's running full glass and you're sitting there eating every shot. It also means you're letting the ranger stay at max range and free cast.

    Third, you can literally avoid 90% of the pet's damage through movement alone.

    Fourth, trying to kill the pet is exactly that. A waste of cooldowns.

    big facepalm, let's end here

    Gazelle is the only pet that really does damage. All of the other pets are used mostly for their utility/control effects to set up damage from the player.

    But sure, we can end it here and you can continue to get revealed by pets hitting you when you're stealthed. (lol)

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    what is obvious unfair to players that wasted all their cooldown to kill the pet.

    There's your problem.

    yeah, you should not kill the pet and that's what started the discussion here, you can't fight back and the pet will kill you.

    The only pet that hits remotely hard is Gazelle and it's attacks are telegraphed. If you're dying to an AI that just runs at you auto attacking, you need to get better at the game.

    so? that's your argument? get better at game? if the pet does nothing and its so easy to avoid why do you even need it? the problem is when he going to hit you, most of the times is when you are on low/half life hiding from the ranger at some pillar/wall and the pet will come to you and you can't fight back, if you kill the pet the ranger will come to you since you wasted all your cds, if you stay there the pet will kill you and if you run the ranger will hit you from 2k range doing 15k rapid fire attack, if you are playing a stealth class the pet will hit you revealing you.
    so if you want a competitive game play if you kill the pet in situations like that they should stay dead, not just ressed by changing it to reset the whole fight

    If you want a competitive game...youl should not be able to re-stealth once you engage the opponent

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    what is obvious unfair to players that wasted all their cooldown to kill the pet.

    There's your problem.

    yeah, you should not kill the pet and that's what started the discussion here, you can't fight back and the pet will kill you.

    The only pet that hits remotely hard is Gazelle and it's attacks are telegraphed. If you're dying to an AI that just runs at you auto attacking, you need to get better at the game.

    so? that's your argument? get better at game? if the pet does nothing and its so easy to avoid why do you even need it? the problem is when he going to hit you, most of the times is when you are on low/half life hiding from the ranger at some pillar/wall and the pet will come to you and you can't fight back, if you kill the pet the ranger will come to you since you wasted all your cds, if you stay there the pet will kill you and if you run the ranger will hit you from 2k range doing 15k rapid fire attack, if you are playing a stealth class the pet will hit you revealing you.
    so if you want a competitive game play if you kill the pet in situations like that they should stay dead, not just ressed by changing it to reset the whole fight

    If you want a competitive game...youl should not be able to re-stealth once you engage the opponent

    yeah, they need get revealed for more time, also i play all the classes im just saying what is broken in some situations

  • Koen.1327Koen.1327 Member ✭✭✭

    @dDuff.3860 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    what is obvious unfair to players that wasted all their cooldown to kill the pet.

    There's your problem.

    yeah, you should not kill the pet and that's what started the discussion here, you can't fight back and the pet will kill you.

    The only pet that hits remotely hard is Gazelle and it's attacks are telegraphed. If you're dying to an AI that just runs at you auto attacking, you need to get better at the game.

    It's attacks aren't telegraphed, pls, don't say this, smokescale knockdown is telegraphed, gazelle just strikes you (me) for 8-12k all of a sudden.

    Gazelle charge has huge wind up but what you say is graphic bug (this is not stealh charge) - gazelle just freezing and teleporting on your body (you are already hit then)

  • @Lilyanna.9361 said:

    First of all, let me address you since you want to have a fit and none of the other mesmer mains seem to gotten angry over my comment.

    I said get rid of STUN BREAK ON DODGE. The reason I also mentioned clones is they produce TOO MUCH. I'm not saying gut it. I'm not saying make clones useless, when I mean choose between the two I meant pick having creating a massive amount of clones and forgo the stunbreak on dodge, OR forgo creating all of those extra clones and ambushes for the stunbreak. Keep your shatters, keep your stealth, I DON'T HAVE AN ISSUE WITH YOUR POWER. I have an issue with your class having a dodge that bypasses anyway to lock it down because it's supposely squishy. Thief is just as squishy and has a 'normal' dodge (they get swiftness or they do Condi damage.

    I know how to find the mesmer, fight the mesmer, whatever. My main issue is you guys bypassing a BASIC MECHANIC because your dodge, for some reason, has to be special and not get locked down. Heck, I complain more about this than your ambushes because honestly, if a lot mesmer 'mains' could not stunbreak on dodge than a lot of people would not try to cheese on the class so much.

    Okay? Take a breath. I know plenty of people in here that are screaming to take away Fresh Air ele damage (lol at those people) and the Weaver dodges, but I'm not going to hop on the actual people that listed reasonable tweaks/minor nerfs to not make Weaver into a brainless Condi not like the rest of the classes are turning into.

    I will save viquing troubles to reply, what stunbreak are you talking about?, you see our main issue was and still most people who talk about mesmers (mirage) specifically, have NO idea how things work, and sadly anet choose to listen to them (sorry anet but thats true), it started with what? nerf elusive mind people, then til today we see some strange things.

    Now as for dodging while stunned etc, come on, some classes can't be stunned even.

    The only thing that we mesmers might accept losing dodging even while cc'd for is getting the things we have lost over these past few years, and then people would complain even more again (best is to go through patches to see what i am talking about) and to actually have knowledge about the skills of mesmers.

    And the rest of the issue, people should really be specific about what they talk about, condi mesmer or power mesmer, there is big difference between them.

    I wanna see a power mesmer not using mirage cloak when stunned etc, gonna be fun, even condi won't work, but power will be fun for sure =p

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 26, 2019

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    You can evade while performing other actions.

    You seem to be leaving that out.

    The bonus of being able to do it while cc'd minus daze should have always been tied only to EM.

    If you choose EM, your dodge is also a condi clear and stunbreak, at a hefty price

    If you choose IH, your damage is boosted, so if you get cc'd you should pay the price like everyone else.

    It really is that simple.

    Ok, I know you aren't a mesmer main but it's not that simple at all.
    Let me show you classic use case : you are engaging from a thief steal, with evade when you want, you save 3 to 5k hp (<= this is why thief harcounter core mes on a side note.).
    You are hitting by a instant or AOE CC from any other meta (holo bump, war bullcharge from melee under cele, weaver random 3 sec CC, etc.) you are dead while every of theses class can do 1 fail or 2 and be safe. "everyone else" as you mention it, can be CCed without pay the price that's the problem and I don't understand why mesmer should be the one who have to be CCed die if they do 1 fail while some meta class can eat full burst and still be alive while loading 4 to 5k easily. While some can't even be CCed thanks to temporisation tools uptimes.
    If you swap mobility utility like blink/MoD to more breakstunt, you are dead because every other class will chase you to death.
    That's basically why you haven't a core mesmer build viable without PU survival.
    So if you have to choose between dodge when you want and IH, I can 100% predict that everyone will choose dodge when you want because it's not a gameplay choice but a viability choice.

    @Lilyanna.9361 said:
    First of all, let me address you since you want to have a fit and none of the other mesmer mains seem to gotten angry over my comment.

    I said get rid of STUN BREAK ON DODGE. The reason I also mentioned clones is they produce TOO MUCH. I'm not saying gut it. I'm not saying make clones useless, when I mean choose between the two I meant pick having creating a massive amount of clones and forgo the stunbreak on dodge, OR forgo creating all of those extra clones and ambushes for the stunbreak. Keep your shatters, keep your stealth, I DON'T HAVE AN ISSUE WITH YOUR POWER. I have an issue with your class having a dodge that bypasses anyway to lock it down because it's supposely squishy. Thief is just as squishy and has a 'normal' dodge (they get swiftness or they do Condi damage.

    I know how to find the mesmer, fight the mesmer, whatever. My main issue is you guys bypassing a BASIC MECHANIC because your dodge, for some reason, has to be special and not get locked down. Heck, I complain more about this than your ambushes because honestly, if a lot mesmer 'mains' could not stunbreak on dodge than a lot of people would not try to cheese on the class so much.

    Okay? Take a breath. I know plenty of people in here that are screaming to take away Fresh Air ele damage (lol at those people) and the Weaver dodges, but I'm not going to hop on the actual people that listed reasonable tweaks/minor nerfs to not make Weaver into a brainless Condi not like the rest of the classes are turning into.

    "Thief is just as squishy and has a 'normal' dodge (they get swiftness or they do Condi damage." lol, really ?
    Thief has access to evade on weapon skill with a high uptime + in/out mobility from LoS + have a way better endurance uptime than mesmer but If you want I'm 100% for having thief 'normal' dodge. I will not even go under the HoT period where thief was godlike unkillable thanks to unhindered combatant who was only nerfed at the end (basically immune to soft cc, perma speed + out of large aoe.).
    "if a lot mesmer 'mains' could not stunbreak on dodge than a lot of people would not try to cheese on the class so much." First I'm not sure there is that much mesmer and want anet to give the stat to end this discussion about class representation who will drasticaly reduce this endlesss discussion. They did it during vanilla, why didn't they give stats ?
    I'm pretty sure I can win versus 80% of people here on a core mesmer, the problem start at high level when you have thing you can't realisticly dodge because of instant or comboing or unblocable or whatever.
    I took a breath during last years whine, who end with a 1 monogameplay shatter play during HoT. 2 mechanic destruction during PoF with most of time no other argument than "I feel it's too strong".
    I don't care about other class change but don't talk about a class change if you never play it other than farming full zerk people in McM.

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Heartpains.7312 said:

    @Lilyanna.9361 said:

    First of all, let me address you since you want to have a fit and none of the other mesmer mains seem to gotten angry over my comment.

    I said get rid of STUN BREAK ON DODGE. The reason I also mentioned clones is they produce TOO MUCH. I'm not saying gut it. I'm not saying make clones useless, when I mean choose between the two I meant pick having creating a massive amount of clones and forgo the stunbreak on dodge, OR forgo creating all of those extra clones and ambushes for the stunbreak. Keep your shatters, keep your stealth, I DON'T HAVE AN ISSUE WITH YOUR POWER. I have an issue with your class having a dodge that bypasses anyway to lock it down because it's supposely squishy. Thief is just as squishy and has a 'normal' dodge (they get swiftness or they do Condi damage.

    I know how to find the mesmer, fight the mesmer, whatever. My main issue is you guys bypassing a BASIC MECHANIC because your dodge, for some reason, has to be special and not get locked down. Heck, I complain more about this than your ambushes because honestly, if a lot mesmer 'mains' could not stunbreak on dodge than a lot of people would not try to cheese on the class so much.

    Okay? Take a breath. I know plenty of people in here that are screaming to take away Fresh Air ele damage (lol at those people) and the Weaver dodges, but I'm not going to hop on the actual people that listed reasonable tweaks/minor nerfs to not make Weaver into a brainless Condi not like the rest of the classes are turning into.

    I will save viquing troubles to reply, what stunbreak are you talking about?, you see our main issue was and still most people who talk about mesmers (mirage) specifically, have NO idea how things work, and sadly anet choose to listen to them (sorry anet but thats true), it started with what? nerf elusive mind people, then til today we see some strange things.

    Now as for dodging while stunned etc, come on, some classes can't be stunned even.

    The only thing that we mesmers might accept losing dodging even while cc'd for is getting the things we have lost over these past few years, and then people would complain even more again (best is to go through patches to see what i am talking about) and to actually have knowledge about the skills of mesmers.

    And the rest of the issue, people should really be specific about what they talk about, condi mesmer or power mesmer, there is big difference between them.

    I wanna see a power mesmer not using mirage cloak when stunned etc, gonna be fun, even condi won't work, but power will be fun for sure =p

    why this trait even exists https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elusive_Mind ?

  • I don't know, why it exist, but i do believe that both Elusive Mind and Dune Cloak are there as a meme, Dune Cloak might have some uses here and there (not worth picking over IH but still), Elusive Mind hurts the mesmer and cripples them for real, would appreciate if they disabled or deleted Elusive Mind so no new mesmers try it and hurt themselves.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Heartpains.7312 said:

    @Lilyanna.9361 said:

    First of all, let me address you since you want to have a fit and none of the other mesmer mains seem to gotten angry over my comment.

    I said get rid of STUN BREAK ON DODGE. The reason I also mentioned clones is they produce TOO MUCH. I'm not saying gut it. I'm not saying make clones useless, when I mean choose between the two I meant pick having creating a massive amount of clones and forgo the stunbreak on dodge, OR forgo creating all of those extra clones and ambushes for the stunbreak. Keep your shatters, keep your stealth, I DON'T HAVE AN ISSUE WITH YOUR POWER. I have an issue with your class having a dodge that bypasses anyway to lock it down because it's supposely squishy. Thief is just as squishy and has a 'normal' dodge (they get swiftness or they do Condi damage.

    I know how to find the mesmer, fight the mesmer, whatever. My main issue is you guys bypassing a BASIC MECHANIC because your dodge, for some reason, has to be special and not get locked down. Heck, I complain more about this than your ambushes because honestly, if a lot mesmer 'mains' could not stunbreak on dodge than a lot of people would not try to cheese on the class so much.

    Okay? Take a breath. I know plenty of people in here that are screaming to take away Fresh Air ele damage (lol at those people) and the Weaver dodges, but I'm not going to hop on the actual people that listed reasonable tweaks/minor nerfs to not make Weaver into a brainless Condi not like the rest of the classes are turning into.

    I will save viquing troubles to reply, what stunbreak are you talking about?, you see our main issue was and still most people who talk about mesmers (mirage) specifically, have NO idea how things work, and sadly anet choose to listen to them (sorry anet but thats true), it started with what? nerf elusive mind people, then til today we see some strange things.

    Now as for dodging while stunned etc, come on, some classes can't be stunned even.

    The only thing that we mesmers might accept losing dodging even while cc'd for is getting the things we have lost over these past few years, and then people would complain even more again (best is to go through patches to see what i am talking about) and to actually have knowledge about the skills of mesmers.

    And the rest of the issue, people should really be specific about what they talk about, condi mesmer or power mesmer, there is big difference between them.

    I wanna see a power mesmer not using mirage cloak when stunned etc, gonna be fun, even condi won't work, but power will be fun for sure =p

    why this trait even exists https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elusive_Mind ?

    To play a hardcore version of mirage with no endurance ?
    Joke aside, principally to condiclear.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Heartpains.7312 said:

    @Lilyanna.9361 said:

    First of all, let me address you since you want to have a fit and none of the other mesmer mains seem to gotten angry over my comment.

    I said get rid of STUN BREAK ON DODGE. The reason I also mentioned clones is they produce TOO MUCH. I'm not saying gut it. I'm not saying make clones useless, when I mean choose between the two I meant pick having creating a massive amount of clones and forgo the stunbreak on dodge, OR forgo creating all of those extra clones and ambushes for the stunbreak. Keep your shatters, keep your stealth, I DON'T HAVE AN ISSUE WITH YOUR POWER. I have an issue with your class having a dodge that bypasses anyway to lock it down because it's supposely squishy. Thief is just as squishy and has a 'normal' dodge (they get swiftness or they do Condi damage.

    I know how to find the mesmer, fight the mesmer, whatever. My main issue is you guys bypassing a BASIC MECHANIC because your dodge, for some reason, has to be special and not get locked down. Heck, I complain more about this than your ambushes because honestly, if a lot mesmer 'mains' could not stunbreak on dodge than a lot of people would not try to cheese on the class so much.

    Okay? Take a breath. I know plenty of people in here that are screaming to take away Fresh Air ele damage (lol at those people) and the Weaver dodges, but I'm not going to hop on the actual people that listed reasonable tweaks/minor nerfs to not make Weaver into a brainless Condi not like the rest of the classes are turning into.

    I will save viquing troubles to reply, what stunbreak are you talking about?, you see our main issue was and still most people who talk about mesmers (mirage) specifically, have NO idea how things work, and sadly anet choose to listen to them (sorry anet but thats true), it started with what? nerf elusive mind people, then til today we see some strange things.

    Now as for dodging while stunned etc, come on, some classes can't be stunned even.

    The only thing that we mesmers might accept losing dodging even while cc'd for is getting the things we have lost over these past few years, and then people would complain even more again (best is to go through patches to see what i am talking about) and to actually have knowledge about the skills of mesmers.

    And the rest of the issue, people should really be specific about what they talk about, condi mesmer or power mesmer, there is big difference between them.

    I wanna see a power mesmer not using mirage cloak when stunned etc, gonna be fun, even condi won't work, but power will be fun for sure =p

    why this trait even exists https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elusive_Mind ?

    To play a hardcore version of mirage with no endurance ?
    Joke aside, principally to condiclear.

    it just reminded me that we have to clear condis 1 by 1, and that I actually considered 1 condi clear good, in a world where shake it off exists xd

  • JayAction.9056JayAction.9056 Member ✭✭✭

    If you guys want to make Renegade summons viable, each summon should be a complete 100-0 or near 100-0 through sheer damage or overpowering effect causing a loss in combat effectiveness (cc or condition combos of some sort).

    As it is right now for the summons to have their complete effect you are required to sit in them for their entire duration. Well, if you sit in them for the full duration now it’s negligible the effect they have, even more if there are multiple enemies standing in them.

    It just falls flat logically. You have to outplay enemies so severe that you cause them to be inside of your non-snaring AOE for multiple seconds. Then, after the time passes the overall effect is equal to, or in reality, weaker than even instant casts.

    It still fails after all the extreme, +333% damage increases some of the Renegade toolkit has seen for a reason.