I seriously consider an alliance with Jormag. — Guild Wars 2 Forums

I seriously consider an alliance with Jormag.

DanAlcedo.3281DanAlcedo.3281 Member ✭✭✭✭

Of all the remaining elder dragons, Primordus and Bubbles have one thing over Jormag.

The location.

Both are in near impossible to access areas.

Below the ocean and in the Magma of the Planet.

The Ice Magic of Jormag counters the Fire Magic of Primordus and having Ice Magic against a Water Dragon seems like a good idea.

( It would also make it easier for Anet to create map in the ocean for the potential bubbles fight)

If i would be in the commanders shoes, i would seroiusly think about an alliance.

Thoughts?

Comments

  • I'm thinking the same as you. If Jormag has been communicating with Aurene, as he has implied (unless it was a lie and he only said that to simply manipulate us) and he really wants to help Aurene, I would certainly form an alliance with him. Atleast for as long as needed to eliminate the other remaining Elder dragons.
    Plus it would be a cool plot-twist.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    The Ice Magic of Jormag counters the Fire Magic of Primordus and having Ice Magic against a Water Dragon seems like a good idea.

    There is no evidence at all that one of Bubbles' domains actually is related to water.
    It's only called Deep-Sea Dragon due to its location.
    For all we know, it's domains might be Winds and Pleasure.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    location inst a problem for a elder dragon
    if they go in Krakatorrik mode, they just fly or under the earth like primordus did once.

    main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).

  • But as Jormag domain of influence is persuasion shouldn’t the Commander show some susceptibility to being convinced of Jormag’s offer? I think from a storytelling perspective a fall is needed. Preferably the Commander’s, but at the very least from a trusted confidant in the Commander’s inner circle. The hero needs to have his weakness shown and exploited.

    "There is little love for those of my kind in this place, yet I am here to help save them all. To those who matter, actions speak louder than words and my actions shall echo across this city for eternity until all recognize the honor of the Tengu race." ~ Talon Silverwing

  • particlepinata.9865particlepinata.9865 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 3, 2019

    Anything to break the plot of three story arks before this which all ended in the repetitive kill the dragon outcome. I personally hope for a thread which is bigger then Jormag, making it necesary to join forces. I would welcome an otherwordly/otherrealm not yet known entity (or entities) to make the story refreshing again. So also not gw 1 related, this has been done too many times also.

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭
    edited December 3, 2019

    They'll probably just kill Jormy. He's too b a d a s s for career villainy.

  • Fenella.2634Fenella.2634 Member ✭✭✭

    @Drgnfly.5812 said:
    The hero needs to have his weakness shown and exploited.

    Maybe. But that weakness should be convincing and not pulled out of nowhere just for the sake of drama. For me at this point even slightly considering Jormag's offer feels out of character for the Commander who should simply know better by now. They are not that naive after seven years of war against Elder Dragons and a former god. Even Braham should know better by now.
    At least I hope so.

  • Arden.7480Arden.7480 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Poormany.4507 said:
    I wouldn't even start thinking of an alliance until there is some credible evidence that there is another imminent real threat, not just a vague claim by an already untrustworthy and manipulative foe.

    haha yeah :D

    The oldest and strongest emotion of mankind is fear, and the oldest and strongest kind of fear is fear of the unknown.

    H. P. Lovecraft

  • Weindrasi.3805Weindrasi.3805 Member ✭✭✭

    Maybe.
    There's a LOT of reasons to not join Jormag. Namely, that no matter how persuasive her argument is, her actions undermine it. Sure, she has the "I'm just trying to defend myself" argument given to Aesgir, but her actions are not those of one interested only in self-defense. The Fallen, Abberant, aggressive Svanir cultists, Boneskinner, convincing Vigil to commit suicide, ruthless murder of anyone disagreeing with her cause, and now--reaching beyond the Shiverpeaks to corrupt charr who don't care what's going on in norn-land.... she's definitely a ruthless conqueror, and she's obviously trying to kill or enslave you.
    The only arc where I could see this working is if we find a way to cleanse her of the corruption that turned the other elder dragons into crazy monsters. By that point, Jormag could become a Vlast-like figure--no empathy or liking for mortals, but grateful to Aurene and the commander for saving her. In which case she could help out of a sense of "duty" to Aurene, the way Vlast served out of duty to Glint.

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭

    I mean the Charr not caring about what goes on in Norn land is debatable. Of the races, both the Charr and the Norn are the most violent, and most likely to aggressively attack the Elder Dragons when given the chance. The Legions might of been sorting out their own problems at the time, but with Kralk gone their eyes inevitably turn to any force greater then themselves.

    Mind you i'm playing devils advocate, Jormags actions are too hideously evil to risk spreading into Tyria. They need to be contained at the very least.

  • An 'alliance' might be a bit strong, but the Commander would be kind of dumb not to consider the possibility of some kind of truce. We know Jormag can't simply be killed without destroying the world and we currently have no way around that like we did with Kralk.

    So as far as the Commander is concerned, the only options currently are to be at active war with a powerful dragon that you can't kill, or to come to some sort of arrangement like Asgeir did.

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2019

    The thing to understand is that the situation isn't new, we were in the same situation with Zhaitan and Mordremoth, we just didn't /know/ that killing them would destroy the world, and we just got kind of lucky that it didn't (mostly, at least).

    Jormag knows this, she knows that no matter what we can only fight her to a standstill, and not only do Elder Dragons have literally hundreds or thousands of years to be patient, but an Elder Dragon fears nothing, not even death. This is a very important and iconic line from Kralkatorrik because it shows us that dragons aren't motivated by their own survival; not even Zhaitan defended Arah because he has "afraid".

    Why's this important? "You made dragon know fear..". The entire Personal Story is retconnned by this statement; there's a hidden flow of events that we were unaware of the entire time since we just thought we were assaulting a weakening, vulnerable and even cowering enemy.

    Jormag knows what it is, a trump card that even the Commander will be vulnerable to.. "Persuasion".

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder, Ehmry Bay (formerly Jade Quarry) | Mains Mariyuuna/Tempest & Terakura/Spellbreaker | ♀♥♀

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2019

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    an Elder Dragon fears nothing, not even death. This is a very important and iconic line from Kralkatorrik

    Wasn't this just a line from the magical madness that consumed Kralkatorrik's actual self?

    Why's this important? "You made dragon know fear..". The entire Personal Story is retconnned by this statement

    How so? The only mentions of a dragon being afraid was in Trahearne's speeches. Those hardly qualify as proof that Zhaitan actually was afraid.
    Just because the dragons now know fear, doesn't mean they knew back then.
    I don't see the retcon there.

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    an Elder Dragon fears nothing, not even death. This is a very important and iconic line from Kralkatorrik

    Wasn't this just a line from the magical madness that consumed Kralkatorrik's actual self?

    Why's this important? "You made dragon know fear..". The entire Personal Story is retconnned by this statement

    How so? The only mentions of a dragon being afraid was in Trahearne's speeches. Those hardly qualify as proof that Zhaitan actually was afraid.
    Just because the dragons now know fear, doesn't mean they knew back then.
    I don't see the retcon there.

    That particular line came from the Largos.

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder, Ehmry Bay (formerly Jade Quarry) | Mains Mariyuuna/Tempest & Terakura/Spellbreaker | ♀♥♀

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 6, 2019

    @Hannelore.8153 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    an Elder Dragon fears nothing, not even death. This is a very important and iconic line from Kralkatorrik

    Wasn't this just a line from the magical madness that consumed Kralkatorrik's actual self?

    Why's this important? "You made dragon know fear..". The entire Personal Story is retconnned by this statement

    How so? The only mentions of a dragon being afraid was in Trahearne's speeches. Those hardly qualify as proof that Zhaitan actually was afraid.
    Just because the dragons now know fear, doesn't mean they knew back then.
    I don't see the retcon there.

    That particular line came from the Largos.

    But we still have no proof that statement reflected reality.
    It still seems more like it was an assumption her part.

  • @Pax.3548 said:
    I wouldn't believe a single word coming from Jormag, this cyrcle of awakening and extinction as been going so many times, yet no race has ever survived by forming an alliance with one of the elder Dragon, besides, Jormac corrupts everything it manages to persuade and what are its boys doing? attacking everything and everyone, like our little base at Jora's keep. Its like speaking of an alliance while at the same time attaking the guy you want to ally with.

    Again, I wouldn't believe a single word from that snake.

    Hey
    Punch
    Champion!
    Punch
    Wanna
    Punch
    make an alliance with me?
    Punch, Punch

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 9, 2019

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    The thing to understand is that the situation isn't new, we were in the same situation with Zhaitan and Mordremoth, we just didn't /know/ that killing them would destroy the world, and we just got kind of lucky that it didn't (mostly, at least).

    Jormag knows this, she knows that no matter what we can only fight her to a standstill, and not only do Elder Dragons have literally hundreds or thousands of years to be patient, but an Elder Dragon fears nothing, not even death. This is a very important and iconic line from Kralkatorrik because it shows us that dragons aren't motivated by their own survival; not even Zhaitan defended Arah because he has "afraid".

    Why's this important? "You made dragon know fear..". The entire Personal Story is retconnned by this statement; there's a hidden flow of events that we were unaware of the entire time since we just thought we were assaulting a weakening, vulnerable and even cowering enemy.

    I don't see how the personal story is at all retconned by the addition of "Elder Dragons don't fear anything". I mean, the claims that Zhaitan was afraid was because it roared when we killed powerful champions like the Eyes and Mouths. Everyone assumed this roar meant fear. But who says that's what it really was?

    It's called unreliable narrator for a reason: because the people speaking are speaking from their limited knowledge perspective, and not the perspective of knowing the whole scope of the story.

    At multiple points in the story, we hear Zhaitan roar. When Sayeh hears it, she says:

    Sayeh al' Rajihd: The dragon roars in fear! These ancient foundations will not withstand the sound.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Temple_of_the_Forgotten_God

    But when Galina and Snarl hear it, they say:

    Galina Edgecrusher: That was no earthquake, that was Zhaitan's roar. Ha! We made a dragon mad enough to throw a tantrum. Must be hungry, the poor little lizard.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Estate_of_Decay

    These roars were the same. One assumed fear, another assumed anger. Which is true? Latter lore suggests Galina had a better feel for Zhaitan than Sayeh did; but perhaps neither were correct.

    Also, fun fact: Several dialogue was changed during A Light in the Darkness; one of the lines changed was:

    Vision Trahearne: The dragon wants us to be afraid, because fear will tear us apart. Fear will destroy us!
    Vision Trahearne: But I tell you this — I am not afraid! I may die, but I will never kneel!
    Vision Trahearne: Did you feel that? It is the dragon who is afraid!

    Which has changed to:

    Vision Trahearne: The dragon is a fearsome enemy. It wants nothing more than to paralyze us with doubt.
    Vision Trahearne: But I tell you this—we are not afraid! We will never kneel!
    Vision Trahearne: Do you feel that? The dragon hears us!

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/A_Light_in_the_Darkness

    This was changed a long time ago, before Season 3 even (also not the only bit changed - a lot of that dialogue was altered for better flow and voice acting).

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    an Elder Dragon fears nothing, not even death. This is a very important and iconic line from Kralkatorrik

    Wasn't this just a line from the magical madness that consumed Kralkatorrik's actual self?

    No, it was a line from Kralkatorrik personally.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    an Elder Dragon fears nothing, not even death. This is a very important and iconic line from Kralkatorrik

    Wasn't this just a line from the magical madness that consumed Kralkatorrik's actual self?

    Why's this important? "You made dragon know fear..". The entire Personal Story is retconnned by this statement

    How so? The only mentions of a dragon being afraid was in Trahearne's speeches. Those hardly qualify as proof that Zhaitan actually was afraid.
    Just because the dragons now know fear, doesn't mean they knew back then.
    I don't see the retcon there.

    That particular line came from the Largos.

    But we still have no proof that statement reflected reality.
    It still seems more like it was an assumption her part.

    Agreed. It was an assumption. I see no reason to resort to calling anything a "retcon".

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭
    edited December 9, 2019

    I don't think an alliance with Jormag is sustainable. Look at all the Vigil Relief Soldiers listening to Jormag and, seemingly, dying of exposure to the frost. How can we possibly entertain the idea of allying with an Elder Dragon who, irrespective of it's intentions, only seems to kill things that get too close to it? By the time we're finished readying the troops to fight the other Elders there won't be any left to muster!

    If you want advice about Jormag, go speak to the elephant in the room: Rytlock. He recognised the dragon's voice. I believe he's heard it long before all of this guffaw. Let him say his piece, then we'll tear Jormag's throat out.

    I bet all this concern about the end of the world, should we kill all of the dragons, is just nonsense. Heck, for all we know one of the remaining dragons - perhaps Jormag itself, or even Bubbles - is so powerful that it has subtly influenced our minds into accepting this possibility as fact, when no proof has ever been presented, only theory by in-game NPCs.

    Just kill Jormag and be done with it. Then quit your moaning.

  • @Stephen.6312 said:
    I don't think an alliance with Jormag is sustainable. Look at all the Vigil Relief Soldiers listening to Jormag and, seemingly, dying of exposure to the frost. How can we possibly entertain the idea of allying with an Elder Dragon who, irrespective of it's intentions, only seems to kill things that get too close to it? By the time we're finished readying the troops to fight the other Elders there won't be any left to muster!

    If you want advice about Jormag, go speak to the elephant in the room: Rytlock. He recognised the dragon's voice. I believe he's heard it long before all of this guffaw. Let him say his piece, then we'll tear Jormag's throat out.

    I bet all this concern about the end of the world, should we kill all of the dragons, is just nonsense. Heck, for all we know one of the remaining dragons - perhaps Jormag itself, or even Bubbles - is so powerful that it has subtly influenced our minds into accepting this possibility as fact, when no proof has ever been presented, only theory by in-game NPCs.

    Just kill Jormag and be done with it. Then quit your moaning.

    Taimi studied and confirmed that killing another ED would destroy Tyria, though your theory would be really cool, the lore s8mply says it’s not possible

  • Fenella.2634Fenella.2634 Member ✭✭✭

    So how would you like to prove the hypothesis further than what Taimi did without actually risking Tyria?
    OTOH, maybe we could sometime soon finally talk to the Pale Tree about how to replace Mordremoth. If we had one more replacement ready, we could really just kill the next ED.

  • @Fenella.2634 said:
    So how would you like to prove the hypothesis further than what Taimi did without actually risking Tyria?
    OTOH, maybe we could sometime soon finally talk to the Pale Tree about how to replace Mordremoth. If we had one more replacement ready, we could really just kill the next ED.

    Remember Spencer the Chak organ? Chak are among the few creatures besides the EDs who absorb magic, she was running all kinds of tests on that thing

  • Poormany.4507Poormany.4507 Member ✭✭✭

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    I don't think an alliance with Jormag is sustainable. Look at all the Vigil Relief Soldiers listening to Jormag and, seemingly, dying of exposure to the frost. How can we possibly entertain the idea of allying with an Elder Dragon who, irrespective of it's intentions, only seems to kill things that get too close to it? By the time we're finished readying the troops to fight the other Elders there won't be any left to muster!

    If you want advice about Jormag, go speak to the elephant in the room: Rytlock. He recognised the dragon's voice. I believe he's heard it long before all of this guffaw. Let him say his piece, then we'll tear Jormag's throat out.

    I bet all this concern about the end of the world, should we kill all of the dragons, is just nonsense. Heck, for all we know one of the remaining dragons - perhaps Jormag itself, or even Bubbles - is so powerful that it has subtly influenced our minds into accepting this possibility as fact, when no proof has ever been presented, only theory by in-game NPCs.

    Just kill Jormag and be done with it. Then quit your moaning.

    It was proven when all the Ley energy went crazy after Mordremoth's death, hence all the ley-crazed bosses and anomalies.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Jormag is one of the most dangerous dragons because of it's extremely malicious ability to manipulate and decieve people.

    There are many tacics Jormag can use to so this.
    Lies, specifically lying with the truth but intentionally witholding key facts aka propaganda.
    Diversion, Jormag seeking to ally with us to against another threat potentially making us blind to it's real agenda.
    Seduction, Jormag offers it's help to gain our trust and lower our guard making us more vulnerable to it's corruption.
    Rationalization, Jormag rationalizes it's past behaviour in a way that makes us sympathetic or understanding (this has already been done in game)
    Guilt, Jormag could potray our refusal for peace as irrational fear and hatred for Dragons, likewise call us hypocrites for allying with Aurine but not giving other dragons the same chance to live in the new world.

    Those are just a few.
    If you want a funny way to say it then Jormag is essentially the politician Dragon xD

    Seriously though, Jormag plays the long game.. the other dragons we've dealt with so far were far more aggressive and Jormag was too until it started encountering mortals that it recognized would be foolish not to respect.
    The commander has earned that respect as well as Jormag itself told us face to puppet face.
    We now have the full attention of this Elder Dragon.. and regardless of the deal/conversation we had with it... make no mistake, this doesn't make Jormag less of a threat to us.. if anything it makes Jormag even more dangerous and you can bet your buts that it will be watching us with great interest going forward.

  • Lottie.5370Lottie.5370 Member ✭✭✭

    Honestly I hope there is an option to give in to or ally with Jormag. I think it would be super interesting to play and I really enjoy listening to Jormag's whipsers in my ear!

  • CETheLucid.3964CETheLucid.3964 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 11, 2019

    @Lottie.5370 said:
    Honestly I hope there is an option to give in to or ally with Jormag. I think it would be super interesting to play and I really enjoy listening to Jormag's whipsers in my ear!

    It's a fact we can't just off another Elder Dragon and we don't have any more scions that can take the places of the ones that remain (and the ones that are still vacant for that matter). We're in a tight spot.

    It's almost impossible to trust Jormag at face value though. For someone speaking of alliances, Jormag isn't exactly acting in good faith to that end. We really have to get in touch with Aurene and away from that voice.

    I really liked this episode, Bjora Marches was well done.

  • Fenella.2634Fenella.2634 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 11, 2019

    I agree that it'd be kind of interesting from the player perspective, but for the PC it would be out of character really. They did not even consider an alliance with Joko in the Realm of the Lost. And in contrast to some players the Commander also did not take Joko's famous speech very seriously. It seems to me with Jormag we are in a similar situation right now, where some players are more interested in the villain than the PC is. :)

  • Lottie.5370Lottie.5370 Member ✭✭✭

    @CETheLucid.3964 said:

    @Lottie.5370 said:
    Honestly I hope there is an option to give in to or ally with Jormag. I think it would be super interesting to play and I really enjoy listening to Jormag's whipsers in my ear!

    It's a fact we can't just off another Elder Dragon and we don't have any more scions that can take the places of the ones that remain (and the ones that are still vacant for that matter). We're in a tight spot.

    It's almost impossible to trust Jormag at face value though. For someone speaking of alliances, Jormag isn't exactly acting in good faith to that end. We really have to get in touch with Aurene and away from that voice.

    I really liked this episode, Bjora Marches was well done.

    I absolutely agree that we can't trust Jormag... but I'm just so tired after all the recent struggles... I just want to rest...

  • @Lottie.5370 said:

    @CETheLucid.3964 said:

    @Lottie.5370 said:
    Honestly I hope there is an option to give in to or ally with Jormag. I think it would be super interesting to play and I really enjoy listening to Jormag's whipsers in my ear!

    It's a fact we can't just off another Elder Dragon and we don't have any more scions that can take the places of the ones that remain (and the ones that are still vacant for that matter). We're in a tight spot.

    It's almost impossible to trust Jormag at face value though. For someone speaking of alliances, Jormag isn't exactly acting in good faith to that end. We really have to get in touch with Aurene and away from that voice.

    I really liked this episode, Bjora Marches was well done.

    I absolutely agree that we can't trust Jormag... but I'm just so tired after all the recent struggles... I just want to rest...


    DO NOT
    RIP those NPCs you tell to get up.