Bladestrom.6425 Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 I'm a 47 year old rhat cannot spend 40 hours a week to have top competitive gear 1- do you really think wow is competing for my time? Different games, different target audience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lezbefriends.7516 Posted July 20, 2019 Author Share Posted July 20, 2019 @Obtena.7952 said:@Mortifera.6138 said:@Obtena.7952 said:@Mortifera.6138 said:The person might like both Italian and Chinese food. In which case, the restaurants have to compete for him. Just like most MMO gamers aren’t looking for an action MMO or a strategic MMO, they’re just looking for a (good) MMO. Most people here came from WoW. Yes, they are competing.Again, you are not listening to what I'm telling you ... not all restaurants compete just because they are restaurants. That's not even an exclusive example. It's the same with any consumer good ... and it's the same with MMO's ... they don't all compete just because they are MMO's. Yes, they do compete just because they are MMOs. No, that's absolutely wrong. There are way more factors that determine if something competes within an industry. It's not enough to simply say everything in a specific industry competes because they are all in an industry. There are hundreds of example of this and the fact you don't think of a single one just indicates that you are being stubborn. You're being way to general ... based on your criteria, I could claim that ANYTHING that takes my time to do competes with GW2. Everything that takes your time does also compete with GW2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 Then your definition of 'compete' has no substance to make a discussion here ... If you want to just wax philosophical and revert to pedantic arguments when your ideas are exposed as unsound, I think were done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bladestrom.6425 Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 @Mortifera.6138 said:@Obtena.7952 said:@Mortifera.6138 said:@Obtena.7952 said:@Mortifera.6138 said:The person might like both Italian and Chinese food. In which case, the restaurants have to compete for him. Just like most MMO gamers aren’t looking for an action MMO or a strategic MMO, they’re just looking for a (good) MMO. Most people here came from WoW. Yes, they are competing.Again, you are not listening to what I'm telling you ... not all restaurants compete just because they are restaurants. That's not even an exclusive example. It's the same with any consumer good ... and it's the same with MMO's ... they don't all compete just because they are MMO's. Yes, they do compete just because they are MMOs. No, that's absolutely wrong. There are way more factors that determine if something competes within an industry. It's not enough to simply say everything in a specific industry competes because they are all in an industry. There are hundreds of example of this and the fact you don't think of a single one just indicates that you are being stubborn. You're being way to general ... based on your criteria, I could claim that ANYTHING that takes my time to do competes with GW2. Everything that takes your time does also compete with GW2. Not if the product does not target your demographic/player type. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kodokuna Akuma.9570 Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 GW2 as an MMO is in some compotition with other MMOs on the market.But the thing is GW2 fills its own niche in the MMO market. So while in a sense it does compete with other games it is not directly competing against them. If one was to spend the time you could easilly take a great manay systems or aspects of GW2 that differenticate it from its "competitors". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bladestrom.6425 Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 @Obtena.7952 said:@Mortifera.6138 said:@Obtena.7952 said:Then your definition of 'compete' has no substance to make a discussion here ... If you want to just wax philosophical and revert to pedantic arguments when your ideas are exposed as unsound, I think were done. Enjoy your WoW clones.Unfortunately, you won't.Free Private servers would like a word with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serialkicker.5274 Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 @Mortifera.6138 said:@Obtena.7952 said:@Mortifera.6138 said:I can’t believe people still say this game is not like WoW. That it caters to a different audience. That may have been true at one point, but everything since HoT has been to make this game more like WoW. They catered to hardcore players, added raids, added mounts, added grind for legendary gears, added the Skyscale grind.... No one even talks about the Manifesto anymore. So yes, this game is like WoW. Yes, they are competing.These threads don't make sense ... if GW2 loved WoW so much, why are they here?Besides similarities you find still don't mean they target the same market ... THAT is what matters when you compare their competition. I mean, you thread is like saying all restaurants compete because they sell food that is cooked and served to you. Well, obviously that's a very superficial assessment. No, GW doesn't compete with WoW to a great extent; their markets are different. That's why GW2 even took off in the first place. Yes, they took off for being different, but everything they’ve added since HoT has made them more like WoW. Please read my OP before commenting.Your argument is they have same stuff, so they compete. Same kind of stuff can be made in million different ways. They both have combat, for example, but are they the same or even closely similar? They both have classes, are they the same? And so on.It's like saying Battlefield and Borderlands compete, because they both have guns and you shoot stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstealer.5978 Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 Let me restate the obvious... who cares a rat's nosehair if wow or any other title competes with GW2 or not.The mmo space has been stifled for some time and each title brings its "same old same old" as well as it's "woohoo look at me" ideas and innovations.... isn't that how things progress inch by inch to compete for all our attention.The simple fact is though it comes down to a very simple personal choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dante.1763 Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 @Mortifera.6138 said:@Dante.1763 said:@Mortifera.6138 said:@Obtena.7952 said:@Mortifera.6138 said:@Obtena.7952 said:@Mortifera.6138 said:@Obtena.7952 said:@Mortifera.6138 said:I can’t believe people still say this game is not like WoW. That it caters to a different audience. That may have been true at one point, but everything since HoT has been to make this game more like WoW. They catered to hardcore players, added raids, added mounts, added grind for legendary gears, added the Skyscale grind.... No one even talks about the Manifesto anymore. So yes, this game is like WoW. Yes, they are competing.These threads don't make sense ... if GW2 loved WoW so much, why are they here?Besides similarities you find still don't mean they target the same market ... THAT is what matters when you compare their competition. I mean, you thread is like saying all restaurants compete because they sell food that is cooked and served to you. Well, obviously that's a very superficial assessment. No, GW doesn't compete with WoW to a great extent; their markets are different. That's why GW2 even took off in the first place. Yes, they took off for being different, but everything they’ve added since HoT has made them more like WoW. Please read my OP before commenting.They still don't appeal to the same market ... Please read MY posts before commenting. I did read your post and you are wrong, restaurants do compete.No, you are wrong ... I didn't say restaurants don't compete. I said ALL restaurants don't compete. They can serve different markets, still be restaurants and still not compete with each other. Just like GW2 serves a different market than WoW. LOL, your obstenance is showing. The only reason not ALL restaurants are competing is that their locations are far from one another. MMOs are all playable on the interwebs, they are ALL competing.Different markets though, thats the difference. If i want Italian food i go to an Italian restaurant. if i want a pvp orientated game i play WOT or WOWS not GW2. If i want a relaxed way to spend a day i play GW2 and not WOT or WOWS. Are they competing for my playtime, sure, but it depends on what im in the mood for. Not everybody is going to be into every game, they are trying to grab and hold onto those who have no interest in the other competition. WOW is so different from GW2 ill never play it, ive tried it once(two weeks) never went back. Yeah, grinding for a mount. So different.So, you ignored my entire post to say something i never mentioned? Very interesting, nowhere, in that entire post did i mention grinding at all. i mentioned playstyles, and desires fulfilled by the games, the things that actually make people play games of different kinds.If you conduct discussions by throwing words in peoples mouths, and ignoring all that they said, perhaps you shouldnt bother posting on a forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lezbefriends.7516 Posted July 20, 2019 Author Share Posted July 20, 2019 @Dante.1763 said:@Mortifera.6138 said:@Dante.1763 said:@Mortifera.6138 said:@Obtena.7952 said:@Mortifera.6138 said:@Obtena.7952 said:@Mortifera.6138 said:@Obtena.7952 said:@Mortifera.6138 said:I can’t believe people still say this game is not like WoW. That it caters to a different audience. That may have been true at one point, but everything since HoT has been to make this game more like WoW. They catered to hardcore players, added raids, added mounts, added grind for legendary gears, added the Skyscale grind.... No one even talks about the Manifesto anymore. So yes, this game is like WoW. Yes, they are competing.These threads don't make sense ... if GW2 loved WoW so much, why are they here?Besides similarities you find still don't mean they target the same market ... THAT is what matters when you compare their competition. I mean, you thread is like saying all restaurants compete because they sell food that is cooked and served to you. Well, obviously that's a very superficial assessment. No, GW doesn't compete with WoW to a great extent; their markets are different. That's why GW2 even took off in the first place. Yes, they took off for being different, but everything they’ve added since HoT has made them more like WoW. Please read my OP before commenting.They still don't appeal to the same market ... Please read MY posts before commenting. I did read your post and you are wrong, restaurants do compete.No, you are wrong ... I didn't say restaurants don't compete. I said ALL restaurants don't compete. They can serve different markets, still be restaurants and still not compete with each other. Just like GW2 serves a different market than WoW. LOL, your obstenance is showing. The only reason not ALL restaurants are competing is that their locations are far from one another. MMOs are all playable on the interwebs, they are ALL competing.Different markets though, thats the difference. If i want Italian food i go to an Italian restaurant. if i want a pvp orientated game i play WOT or WOWS not GW2. If i want a relaxed way to spend a day i play GW2 and not WOT or WOWS. Are they competing for my playtime, sure, but it depends on what im in the mood for. Not everybody is going to be into every game, they are trying to grab and hold onto those who have no interest in the other competition. WOW is so different from GW2 ill never play it, ive tried it once(two weeks) never went back. Yeah, grinding for a mount. So different.So, you ignored my entire post to say something i never mentioned? Very interesting, nowhere, in that entire post did i mention grinding at all. i mentioned playstyles, and desires fulfilled by the games, the things that actually make people play games of different kinds.If you conduct discussions by throwing words in peoples mouths, and ignoring all that they said, perhaps you shouldnt bother posting on a forum. Face it: Guild Wars 2 became Grind Wars 2, another WoW-clone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bladestrom.6425 Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 @Mortifera.6138 said:@Dante.1763 said:@Mortifera.6138 said:@Dante.1763 said:@Mortifera.6138 said:@Obtena.7952 said:@Mortifera.6138 said:@Obtena.7952 said:@Mortifera.6138 said:@Obtena.7952 said:@Mortifera.6138 said:I can’t believe people still say this game is not like WoW. That it caters to a different audience. That may have been true at one point, but everything since HoT has been to make this game more like WoW. They catered to hardcore players, added raids, added mounts, added grind for legendary gears, added the Skyscale grind.... No one even talks about the Manifesto anymore. So yes, this game is like WoW. Yes, they are competing.These threads don't make sense ... if GW2 loved WoW so much, why are they here?Besides similarities you find still don't mean they target the same market ... THAT is what matters when you compare their competition. I mean, you thread is like saying all restaurants compete because they sell food that is cooked and served to you. Well, obviously that's a very superficial assessment. No, GW doesn't compete with WoW to a great extent; their markets are different. That's why GW2 even took off in the first place. Yes, they took off for being different, but everything they’ve added since HoT has made them more like WoW. Please read my OP before commenting.They still don't appeal to the same market ... Please read MY posts before commenting. I did read your post and you are wrong, restaurants do compete.No, you are wrong ... I didn't say restaurants don't compete. I said ALL restaurants don't compete. They can serve different markets, still be restaurants and still not compete with each other. Just like GW2 serves a different market than WoW. LOL, your obstenance is showing. The only reason not ALL restaurants are competing is that their locations are far from one another. MMOs are all playable on the interwebs, they are ALL competing.Different markets though, thats the difference. If i want Italian food i go to an Italian restaurant. if i want a pvp orientated game i play WOT or WOWS not GW2. If i want a relaxed way to spend a day i play GW2 and not WOT or WOWS. Are they competing for my playtime, sure, but it depends on what im in the mood for. Not everybody is going to be into every game, they are trying to grab and hold onto those who have no interest in the other competition. WOW is so different from GW2 ill never play it, ive tried it once(two weeks) never went back. Yeah, grinding for a mount. So different.So, you ignored my entire post to say something i never mentioned? Very interesting, nowhere, in that entire post did i mention grinding at all. i mentioned playstyles, and desires fulfilled by the games, the things that actually make people play games of different kinds.If you conduct discussions by throwing words in peoples mouths, and ignoring all that they said, perhaps you shouldnt bother posting on a forum. Face it: Guild Wars 2 became Grind Wars 2, another WoW-clone.GW has had horizontal long term goals since day 1 of GW1, its the primary reward mechanism. all of which has little in common with the primary rewards mechanism in WOW which is the daily GS grind/power race. This is something that was argued about 5 years ago by those who hadn't played GW1. Time to move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dante.1763 Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 @vesica tempestas.1563 said:@Mortifera.6138 said:@Dante.1763 said:@Mortifera.6138 said:@Dante.1763 said:@Mortifera.6138 said:@Obtena.7952 said:@Mortifera.6138 said:@Obtena.7952 said:@Mortifera.6138 said:@Obtena.7952 said:@Mortifera.6138 said:I can’t believe people still say this game is not like WoW. That it caters to a different audience. That may have been true at one point, but everything since HoT has been to make this game more like WoW. They catered to hardcore players, added raids, added mounts, added grind for legendary gears, added the Skyscale grind.... No one even talks about the Manifesto anymore. So yes, this game is like WoW. Yes, they are competing.These threads don't make sense ... if GW2 loved WoW so much, why are they here?Besides similarities you find still don't mean they target the same market ... THAT is what matters when you compare their competition. I mean, you thread is like saying all restaurants compete because they sell food that is cooked and served to you. Well, obviously that's a very superficial assessment. No, GW doesn't compete with WoW to a great extent; their markets are different. That's why GW2 even took off in the first place. Yes, they took off for being different, but everything they’ve added since HoT has made them more like WoW. Please read my OP before commenting.They still don't appeal to the same market ... Please read MY posts before commenting. I did read your post and you are wrong, restaurants do compete.No, you are wrong ... I didn't say restaurants don't compete. I said ALL restaurants don't compete. They can serve different markets, still be restaurants and still not compete with each other. Just like GW2 serves a different market than WoW. LOL, your obstenance is showing. The only reason not ALL restaurants are competing is that their locations are far from one another. MMOs are all playable on the interwebs, they are ALL competing.Different markets though, thats the difference. If i want Italian food i go to an Italian restaurant. if i want a pvp orientated game i play WOT or WOWS not GW2. If i want a relaxed way to spend a day i play GW2 and not WOT or WOWS. Are they competing for my playtime, sure, but it depends on what im in the mood for. Not everybody is going to be into every game, they are trying to grab and hold onto those who have no interest in the other competition. WOW is so different from GW2 ill never play it, ive tried it once(two weeks) never went back. Yeah, grinding for a mount. So different.So, you ignored my entire post to say something i never mentioned? Very interesting, nowhere, in that entire post did i mention grinding at all. i mentioned playstyles, and desires fulfilled by the games, the things that actually make people play games of different kinds.If you conduct discussions by throwing words in peoples mouths, and ignoring all that they said, perhaps you shouldnt bother posting on a forum. Face it: Guild Wars 2 became Grind Wars 2, another WoW-clone.GW has had horizontal long term goals since day 1 of GW1, its the primary reward mechanism. all of which has little in common with the primary rewards mechanism in WOW which is the daily GS grind/power race. This is something that was argued about 5 years ago by those who hadn't played GW1. Time to move on.This is true. GW1 ended leveling at level 20 and all the rewards where grinded for titles, skins, or weapons. The stats never changed on those weapons. GW2 is the same thing, with additional playable races, theres no difference. The only that changed with HOT was that open world got slightly harder than it had been before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lezbefriends.7516 Posted July 20, 2019 Author Share Posted July 20, 2019 @Dante.1763 said:@vesica tempestas.1563 said:@Mortifera.6138 said:@Dante.1763 said:@Mortifera.6138 said:@Dante.1763 said:@Mortifera.6138 said:@Obtena.7952 said:@Mortifera.6138 said:@Obtena.7952 said:@Mortifera.6138 said:@Obtena.7952 said:@Mortifera.6138 said:I can’t believe people still say this game is not like WoW. That it caters to a different audience. That may have been true at one point, but everything since HoT has been to make this game more like WoW. They catered to hardcore players, added raids, added mounts, added grind for legendary gears, added the Skyscale grind.... No one even talks about the Manifesto anymore. So yes, this game is like WoW. Yes, they are competing.These threads don't make sense ... if GW2 loved WoW so much, why are they here?Besides similarities you find still don't mean they target the same market ... THAT is what matters when you compare their competition. I mean, you thread is like saying all restaurants compete because they sell food that is cooked and served to you. Well, obviously that's a very superficial assessment. No, GW doesn't compete with WoW to a great extent; their markets are different. That's why GW2 even took off in the first place. Yes, they took off for being different, but everything they’ve added since HoT has made them more like WoW. Please read my OP before commenting.They still don't appeal to the same market ... Please read MY posts before commenting. I did read your post and you are wrong, restaurants do compete.No, you are wrong ... I didn't say restaurants don't compete. I said ALL restaurants don't compete. They can serve different markets, still be restaurants and still not compete with each other. Just like GW2 serves a different market than WoW. LOL, your obstenance is showing. The only reason not ALL restaurants are competing is that their locations are far from one another. MMOs are all playable on the interwebs, they are ALL competing.Different markets though, thats the difference. If i want Italian food i go to an Italian restaurant. if i want a pvp orientated game i play WOT or WOWS not GW2. If i want a relaxed way to spend a day i play GW2 and not WOT or WOWS. Are they competing for my playtime, sure, but it depends on what im in the mood for. Not everybody is going to be into every game, they are trying to grab and hold onto those who have no interest in the other competition. WOW is so different from GW2 ill never play it, ive tried it once(two weeks) never went back. Yeah, grinding for a mount. So different.So, you ignored my entire post to say something i never mentioned? Very interesting, nowhere, in that entire post did i mention grinding at all. i mentioned playstyles, and desires fulfilled by the games, the things that actually make people play games of different kinds.If you conduct discussions by throwing words in peoples mouths, and ignoring all that they said, perhaps you shouldnt bother posting on a forum. Face it: Guild Wars 2 became Grind Wars 2, another WoW-clone.GW has had horizontal long term goals since day 1 of GW1, its the primary reward mechanism. all of which has little in common with the primary rewards mechanism in WOW which is the daily GS grind/power race. This is something that was argued about 5 years ago by those who hadn't played GW1. Time to move on.This is true. GW1 ended leveling at level 20 and all the rewards where grinded for titles, skins, or weapons. The stats never changed on those weapons. GW2 is the same thing, with additional playable races, theres no difference. The only that changed with HOT was that open world got slightly harder than it had been before. Yeah, yeah, they sold it as horizontal progression. But who isn’t grinding for mounts and legendary armors? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueJin.4127 Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 OP is right. With the introduction of HoT, the level cap of GW2 was increased from 80 to 90, and again with the release of PoF from 90 to 100. To safely play LWS4 E6, players need item level 850 gears, so players can’t simply go to Dragonfall with ilvl 550 gears grinded in PoF. Players must grind E5, dungeons, and/or fractals for ilvl 850 gears before they can start playing in Dragonfall. If your character just reached level 80, one does not simply walk into Dragonfall... You need to first grind an ilvl 850 axe... and a bow. Or you CAN’T PLAY DRAGONFALL! Darn this grind wars!If only the game was different from WoW, where I don’t need to grind up-to-date gears in previous episodes EVERY TIME ANET RELEASES THE NEXT EPISODE! If only... IF ONLY!!!*Flips table Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KryTiKaL.3125 Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 Regardless of whether or not GW2 does anything similar to WoW progression wise, content wise, whatever; the fact remains that they exist within the same genre of game. They are both MMORPGs, they compete against one another within that market so of course there is a measure of success where one excels over the other in terms of sales and population numbers. That is the nature of the market, can't dispute that. However what can be said is that GW2 appeals to a different kind of player within the MMORPG market. It does not have vertical progression, it does not have themepark elements, it does not release content more tailored to a more hardcore type of player. WoW, and some other MMORPGs, however do have these things which differentiates them from one another and that is where the competition lies. Each game has their own identity and they try to play to that identity. .! Now admittedly I think GW2 could do with actually accommodating a more hardcore type player as they really don't retain those kinds of players very well as they go elsewhere for it. Be it for PvE Raiding or for PvP competition. Even WoW still has PvP tournaments and a competitive scene despite how it fell off in popularity many years ago, GW2 not so much since ESL pulled out in 2017.Someone tried to use the example of "Battlefield competing with Borderlands" as an analogy as to why GW2 wouldn't compete with WoW. "Just because they have similar things doesn't mean they compete with one another". Thats...a terrible analogy. First, Battlefield is a Multiplayer FPS, Borderlands is a RPG Looter Shooter FPS. Both shooters, however both fall into different sub-genres. Second, GW2 and WoW are both directly a part of the MMORPG genre. There isn't a sub-genre, one isn't an MMO and the other an MMORPG, they are both MMORPGs and so they both would be competing in the same market of player. You wouldn't market a Battlefield game to appeal to a Borderlands player as those are two vastly different kinds of games in how they play. However GW2 and WoW have the same basic principles due to the genre that they exist in and as such they appeal to similar kinds of players; MMORPG players.Also this idea of "WoW clones" is old. Its a 2012 mindset that people legitimately need to let go of. We get it, there was a period of time where many developers saw WoWs success and tried desperately to emulate it and there were a slew of "WoW killer" rumors about MMORPGs that would be releasing that deviated from the formula that WoW sort of set as the genre standard. Thats why GW2 turned out the way it did, thats why ESO turned out the way it did. Fact is though...the most successful MMORPGs right now do not follow the formula that GW2 uses and GW2 is very much one of the outliers in the genre right now, especially due to its age. Kind of falls in there with BDO honestly, though both games are vastly different from one another, they are both outliers in the genre for different reasons. GW2 is extremely casual and requires little to no effort in the long term, however BDO requires almost persistent play to stay "at the top" and if you take a break you will have to play catch up which I imagine no one playing GW2 right now is at all a fan of.FFXIV, ESO, WoW and even OSRS (Runescape) are probably the most popular MMORPGs right now in 2019, GW2 slides in there below all of them. Don't get me wrong, its still up there on the list but lower than the ones I see many people here take issue with (mostly WoW). Whether you, as an individual, like them or not is irrelevant to the bigger picture. I'm not the biggest fan of ESO, I don't like its questing, the combat feels clunky despite its "action camera" nature; yet I can still acknowledge the reality that it is just performing better right now. Same with more "traditional" style MMORPGs like FFXIV and WoW, and I guess Runescape falls into that category too but its much more "old school" and apparently people are liking that more these days.Don't let your personal feelings cloud your perception of the reality. Like it or not, GW2 competes with these other games, these "WoW clones" I'm seeing hate fore, and its doing "okay" but not nearly as well as these other ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 @Mortifera.6138 said:Yeah, yeah, they sold it as horizontal progression. But who isn’t grinding for mounts and legendary armors?Whatever amount of grinding exists (and also note that Anet's statement had a context you're ignoring), that doesn't make it a WoW clone. I was playing MMO's long before WoW came out that had grinding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amaranthe.3578 Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 This game is absolutely NOTHING like WoW. Raids/fractals are a side show in GW2. GW2 still caters exclusively to casuals. By the time GW2 releases 3 bosses lol WoW gives it's players a whole raid of 10+ bosses. You simply cannot play GW2 as a player who's main interest are raids. The only mode that constantly gets updates is the casual LS. GW2 still has no gear treadmill and none of the grinds are actually needed or offer much.Anyone who thinks GW2 is similar to WoW clearly hasn't played WoW or just didn't think more than 2 minutes about the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amaranthe.3578 Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 @Vayne.8563 said:So how do you explain that I don't like WoW and I like this game? Let's look at the list.Mounts? Completely different here. Mounts are just a speed buff in WOW. Here they have life and become an integral part of gameplay.Raids? Raiding in wow is progressive. There's nothing like LFR in WOW here and more to the point, all the raids are in play all the time.Legendary gear grind? In WoW, each tier of gear has higher and higher stats, and they keep coming out with higher and higher stats. Not so hear. The last time stats were raised here was like four years ago. Legendary gear is, unlike WoW, 100% completely optional. Not having legendary gear locks you out of no content at all. So not like WoW.The Skyscale is a completely optional mount, meant to be a long term goal. People can talk about grind all they want, but that doesn't make it grind. If people had actually been playing the zones all along, they'd probably have had most of the currency saved up already. I know I did. The skyscale's biggest complaints were about time gating, rather than grind. If you tell a WoW player that we had two expansions that neither raised the level cap, nor introduced a new tier of gear, they'd be amazed, if they even believed it.Again, if this game is so much like WoW, why don't I like WoW?GW2 is nothing like WoW. OP makes zero sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amaranthe.3578 Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 @"spectrito.8513" said:I dont really understand why people say gw2 is great because you dont need to grind, but that is what most people do, just take a look on how populated are the farming maps : Istan pre-nerf, dragonfall, SW.In gw2 we dont grind for gear, we grind for skins, which is the same thing but more mind numbing and way less rewarding, you just need to faceroll mobs in PvE spamming auto attacks.WoW maybe doesnt compete with gw2 for the casual pve audience which are interested in open world PvE content and single story mode released every 3 months.But it competes for the hardcore Raiders, WvWers to some extent and casual and hardcore PvPers.Combat mechanics in gw2 are better, but the skill ceilling in wow(classic) is much higher because you need to have a knowledge of the game in general not only on classes, wow is way more complex game compared to gw2 PvE and PvP wise.WoW will not have updates but it's better not have updates than have bad ones.There's no competition over "raiders". If raiding is THE thing you want from your MMORPG you shouldn't even consider GW2. Theres no competition there, you should just play wow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 @Trise.2865 said:@Obtena.7952 said:@"Mortifera.6138" said:Yeah, yeah, they sold it as horizontal progression. But who isn’t grinding for mounts and legendary armors?Whatever amount of grinding exists (and also note that Anet's statement had a context you're ignoring), that doesn't make it a WoW clone. I was playing MMO's long before WoW came out that had grinding. ...he's baiting you, you know. I suggest save yourself some sanity and hassle and just report trolls like him. Let his obstinate cries and "nuh-uh!" arguments fall on deaf ears. He's not going to learn, he chooses not to for some reason. He's not going to listen, he's already made up his mind. All he's doing with trash like that is annoying you, and by extension the rest of us. We're all better without it. I got no problem with that. The more 'nuh-uh' arguments someone makes, the less likely that person will be taken seriously by everyone. As long as the discussion remains civil, I'm more than willing to facilitate smoothing that road for people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firebeard.1746 Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 @Iozeph.5617 said:@Firebeard.1746 said:@Mortifera.6138 said:I can’t believe people still say this game is not like WoW. That it caters to a different audience. That may have been true at one point, but everything since HoT has been to make this game more like WoW. They catered to hardcore players, added raids, added mounts, added grind for legendary gears, added the Skyscale grind.... No one even talks about the Manifesto anymore. So yes, this game is like WoW. Yes, they are competing.This game is still far more casual than WoW. Are you grinding a completely new set of gear every 6 months? Is your character far below max level cap because you took a 3 year break? Everything you mention is a nice to have. Heck you can even get legendaries without raiding if you can stand a pvp grind with terrible matchmaking. And you keep those legendaries forever even of a new expansion comes out. The ones i earned in legion are useless now.In contrast, I left GW2for 2 to 3 years and i can still play my characters and jump straight into end game activities. Also this game offers far more permanent, yet slow progression.It's casual in just the same ways that wow is. And by the same token it's just as demanding as wow though. You now have to put a lot of time and effort in in order to get certain things you want. The major difference between wow(especially wow of old) and gw2 is that it's possible now, assuming one has the means, to shorten the way by legitimately(as in not going to third party gold selling sites) throwing money at the problem via gem purchases, conversions to gold, and then purchasing certain necessary items on the Black Lion Exchange. Much of this grinding depends on what part of the game you're invested in. GW2 is by no means monolithic- consisting of several game modes now. If you wish to be your best(read be included) in either high tier fractals, raiding, or in competitive modes(mostly WvW) then you end up chasing metas and those are dictated by the ever changing balancing and mechanics introductions made by ANet's development teams. New metas require new gearing even if it's only on the level of exotics(much of it demanding ascended and infused equipment) and this is a song and dance that's repeated as often as those metas change. Many new metas require armour and weapon stat combinations found only via grinding certain maps in order to craft them. And while it could be argued that yes, the community enforces the metas, when it comes to metas in general ANet still lays the egg first, so to speak. They know the community's temperament in regard to metas and still continue to develop the majority of their content with metas in mind(even if it's only the means to acquire the gear to meet them). What's more they've also backpedaled on their stances regarding the trinity and third party programmes which is no small thing because most raiding requires it and many raiders demand it and they(ANet) for whatever reason want a piece of that demographic.It's true that if all you ever want to do is face roll on open maps and collect your bags from meta events you shouldn't have to change much. If, however, you want something more beyond that limited vision of GW2 then your hand is indeed forced.So could we please not perpetuate this myth that there is no grinding required in GW2? At best it's only a half truth. Well ascended gear is account wide. Legendary gear allows stat swapping. At some point you would have enough different sets and characters at lvl 80 or legendary gear on your main where something you have should work when the meta changes. Wow has 4 seasons per expack. Is that how many stat combos are introduced and each of them meta every 2 years? I don't think so. Support chrono has been meta for over a year now. Also legendaries provide permanent progression. There is no notion of permanent gear progression like that in WoW.Also you imply pw2 aspects via gold purchases. You know that people sell raid clears in WoW too right? I could just as easily purchase gold and get heroic raid tier gear without working for it at all in WoW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knighthonor.4061 Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 @Mortifera.6138 said:I can’t believe people still say this game is not like WoW. That it caters to a different audience. That may have been true at one point, but everything since HoT has been to make this game more like WoW. They catered to hardcore players, added raids, added mounts, added grind for legendary gears, added the Skyscale grind.... No one even talks about the Manifesto anymore. So yes, this game is like WoW. Yes, they are competing.That was only marketing at that time Anti-Wow was a big marketing trend. Anybody with some sense and wasn't blinded by hype and Fandom could see through that. The Anti-Wow mentality doesn't work when trying to make a great MMO. Warhammer Online had that same mentality and it pretty much killed that game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KryTiKaL.3125 Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 @Firebeard.1746 said:@Iozeph.5617 said:@Firebeard.1746 said:@"Mortifera.6138" said:I can’t believe people still say this game is not like WoW. That it caters to a different audience. That may have been true at one point, but everything since HoT has been to make this game more like WoW. They catered to hardcore players, added raids, added mounts, added grind for legendary gears, added the Skyscale grind.... No one even talks about the Manifesto anymore. So yes, this game is like WoW. Yes, they are competing.This game is still far more casual than WoW. Are you grinding a completely new set of gear every 6 months? Is your character far below max level cap because you took a 3 year break? Everything you mention is a nice to have. Heck you can even get legendaries without raiding if you can stand a pvp grind with terrible matchmaking. And you keep those legendaries forever even of a new expansion comes out. The ones i earned in legion are useless now.In contrast, I left GW2for 2 to 3 years and i can still play my characters and jump straight into end game activities. Also this game offers far more permanent, yet slow progression.It's casual in just the same ways that wow is. And by the same token it's just as demanding as wow though. You now have to put a lot of time and effort in in order to get certain things you want. The major difference between wow(especially wow of old) and gw2 is that it's possible now, assuming one has the means, to shorten the way by legitimately(as in not going to third party gold selling sites) throwing money at the problem via gem purchases, conversions to gold, and then purchasing certain necessary items on the Black Lion Exchange. Much of this grinding depends on what part of the game you're invested in. GW2 is by no means monolithic- consisting of several game modes now. If you wish to be your best(read be included) in either high tier fractals, raiding, or in competitive modes(mostly WvW) then you end up chasing metas and those are dictated by the ever changing balancing and mechanics introductions made by ANet's development teams. New metas require new gearing even if it's only on the level of exotics(much of it demanding ascended and infused equipment) and this is a song and dance that's repeated as often as those metas change. Many new metas require armour and weapon stat combinations found only via grinding certain maps in order to craft them. And while it could be argued that yes, the community enforces the metas, when it comes to metas in general ANet still lays the egg first, so to speak. They know the community's temperament in regard to metas and still continue to develop the majority of their content with metas in mind(even if it's only the means to acquire the gear to meet them). What's more they've also backpedaled on their stances regarding the trinity and third party programmes which is no small thing because most raiding requires it and many raiders demand it and they(ANet) for whatever reason want a piece of that demographic.It's true that if all you ever want to do is face roll on open maps and collect your bags from meta events you shouldn't have to change much. If, however, you want something more beyond that limited vision of GW2 then your hand is indeed forced.So could we please not perpetuate this myth that there is no grinding required in GW2? At best it's only a half truth. Well ascended gear is account wide. Legendary gear allows stat swapping. At some point you would have enough different sets and characters at lvl 80 or legendary gear on your main where something you have should work when the meta changes. Wow has 4 seasons per expack. Is that how many stat combos are introduced and each of them meta every 2 years? I don't think so. Support chrono has been meta for over a year now. Also legendaries provide permanent progression. There is no notion of permanent gear progression like that in WoW.Also you imply pw2 aspects via gold purchases. You know that people sell raid clears in WoW too right? I could just as easily purchase gold and get heroic raid tier gear without working for it at all in WoW."Progression" implies advancement, moving forward or just...in a direction. "Permanent gear progression" or "permanent progression" isn't a thing...horizontal progression sure, rather than moving up it moves to the side. Stays on the same level but is more about options rather than power.Some people don't like vertical progression, in fact I'd argue that the majority of GW2s playerbase is vehemently against vertical progression, despite each expac adding more to power creep.Also I'd say GW2s grind is not really that bad. Mostly because you're not necessarily....gaining anything out of it other than mostly just cosmetic "gain" or personal achievement. You don't have to grind anything, it essentially amounts to nothing because there isn't much to "gain" from the grind. Other games with grind, like BDO, actually have something tangible you earn that contributes overall to your character and there is meaning to spending that time doing it. Getting exp for levels, which unlocks more and stronger versions of your skills as well as money for gear which makes those skills deal more damage and allow you to survive longer. GW2 its really just for gold that you'd then use to either craft a legendary, which is really just for cosmetic and convenience purposes, or to buy cosmetics on the TP like Infusions or weapon/armor skins. Thats it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firebeard.1746 Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 @KryTiKaL.3125 said:@Firebeard.1746 said:@Iozeph.5617 said:@Firebeard.1746 said:@"Mortifera.6138" said:I can’t believe people still say this game is not like WoW. That it caters to a different audience. That may have been true at one point, but everything since HoT has been to make this game more like WoW. They catered to hardcore players, added raids, added mounts, added grind for legendary gears, added the Skyscale grind.... No one even talks about the Manifesto anymore. So yes, this game is like WoW. Yes, they are competing.This game is still far more casual than WoW. Are you grinding a completely new set of gear every 6 months? Is your character far below max level cap because you took a 3 year break? Everything you mention is a nice to have. Heck you can even get legendaries without raiding if you can stand a pvp grind with terrible matchmaking. And you keep those legendaries forever even of a new expansion comes out. The ones i earned in legion are useless now.In contrast, I left GW2for 2 to 3 years and i can still play my characters and jump straight into end game activities. Also this game offers far more permanent, yet slow progression.It's casual in just the same ways that wow is. And by the same token it's just as demanding as wow though. You now have to put a lot of time and effort in in order to get certain things you want. The major difference between wow(especially wow of old) and gw2 is that it's possible now, assuming one has the means, to shorten the way by legitimately(as in not going to third party gold selling sites) throwing money at the problem via gem purchases, conversions to gold, and then purchasing certain necessary items on the Black Lion Exchange. Much of this grinding depends on what part of the game you're invested in. GW2 is by no means monolithic- consisting of several game modes now. If you wish to be your best(read be included) in either high tier fractals, raiding, or in competitive modes(mostly WvW) then you end up chasing metas and those are dictated by the ever changing balancing and mechanics introductions made by ANet's development teams. New metas require new gearing even if it's only on the level of exotics(much of it demanding ascended and infused equipment) and this is a song and dance that's repeated as often as those metas change. Many new metas require armour and weapon stat combinations found only via grinding certain maps in order to craft them. And while it could be argued that yes, the community enforces the metas, when it comes to metas in general ANet still lays the egg first, so to speak. They know the community's temperament in regard to metas and still continue to develop the majority of their content with metas in mind(even if it's only the means to acquire the gear to meet them). What's more they've also backpedaled on their stances regarding the trinity and third party programmes which is no small thing because most raiding requires it and many raiders demand it and they(ANet) for whatever reason want a piece of that demographic.It's true that if all you ever want to do is face roll on open maps and collect your bags from meta events you shouldn't have to change much. If, however, you want something more beyond that limited vision of GW2 then your hand is indeed forced.So could we please not perpetuate this myth that there is no grinding required in GW2? At best it's only a half truth. Well ascended gear is account wide. Legendary gear allows stat swapping. At some point you would have enough different sets and characters at lvl 80 or legendary gear on your main where something you have should work when the meta changes. Wow has 4 seasons per expack. Is that how many stat combos are introduced and each of them meta every 2 years? I don't think so. Support chrono has been meta for over a year now. Also legendaries provide permanent progression. There is no notion of permanent gear progression like that in WoW.Also you imply pw2 aspects via gold purchases. You know that people sell raid clears in WoW too right? I could just as easily purchase gold and get heroic raid tier gear without working for it at all in WoW."Progression" implies advancement, moving forward or just...in a direction. "Permanent gear progression" or "permanent progression" isn't a thing...horizontal progression sure, rather than moving up it moves to the side. Stays on the same level but is more about options rather than power.Some people don't like vertical progression, in fact I'd argue that the majority of GW2s playerbase is vehemently against vertical progression, despite each expac adding more to power creep.Also I'd say GW2s grind is not really that bad. Mostly because you're not necessarily....gaining anything out of it other than mostly just cosmetic "gain" or personal achievement. You don't have to grind anything, it essentially amounts to nothing because there isn't much to "gain" from the grind. Other games with grind, like BDO, actually have something tangible you earn that contributes overall to your character and there is meaning to spending that time doing it. Getting exp for levels, which unlocks more and stronger versions of your skills as well as money for gear which makes those skills deal more damage and allow you to survive longer. GW2 its really just for gold that you'd then use to either craft a legendary, which is really just for cosmetic and convenience purposes, or to buy cosmetics on the TP like Infusions or weapon/armor skins. Thats it.The reason i call legendaries progression is because no matter what new affixes are in the game, you'll immediately have access to them. The person responding to my OP implied the new affixes and/or changed meta is the progression and they're still grinding for that reason.On that note, Wow's progression or even BDO's is an illusion. Seasons in WoW or new weapons to enhance in BDO open a new cap and anyone chasing that cap will be more powerful than anyone who isn't. So really it's like everything you've done becomes invalidated over night and you have to start over again to compete. WoW players are finally waking up to this. It's one of the issues players are having with BFA.I also want to take a moment to point out that Azerite, as it was designed, didn't feel as powerful as artifact weapons, and that hard loss in power helped players wake up to the treadmill reality. Nerfing elite specializations that require way more hero points to unlock may feel the same way. That nothing you do in game really matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KryTiKaL.3125 Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 @Firebeard.1746 said:@KryTiKaL.3125 said:@Firebeard.1746 said:@Iozeph.5617 said:@Firebeard.1746 said:@"Mortifera.6138" said:I can’t believe people still say this game is not like WoW. That it caters to a different audience. That may have been true at one point, but everything since HoT has been to make this game more like WoW. They catered to hardcore players, added raids, added mounts, added grind for legendary gears, added the Skyscale grind.... No one even talks about the Manifesto anymore. So yes, this game is like WoW. Yes, they are competing.This game is still far more casual than WoW. Are you grinding a completely new set of gear every 6 months? Is your character far below max level cap because you took a 3 year break? Everything you mention is a nice to have. Heck you can even get legendaries without raiding if you can stand a pvp grind with terrible matchmaking. And you keep those legendaries forever even of a new expansion comes out. The ones i earned in legion are useless now.In contrast, I left GW2for 2 to 3 years and i can still play my characters and jump straight into end game activities. Also this game offers far more permanent, yet slow progression.It's casual in just the same ways that wow is. And by the same token it's just as demanding as wow though. You now have to put a lot of time and effort in in order to get certain things you want. The major difference between wow(especially wow of old) and gw2 is that it's possible now, assuming one has the means, to shorten the way by legitimately(as in not going to third party gold selling sites) throwing money at the problem via gem purchases, conversions to gold, and then purchasing certain necessary items on the Black Lion Exchange. Much of this grinding depends on what part of the game you're invested in. GW2 is by no means monolithic- consisting of several game modes now. If you wish to be your best(read be included) in either high tier fractals, raiding, or in competitive modes(mostly WvW) then you end up chasing metas and those are dictated by the ever changing balancing and mechanics introductions made by ANet's development teams. New metas require new gearing even if it's only on the level of exotics(much of it demanding ascended and infused equipment) and this is a song and dance that's repeated as often as those metas change. Many new metas require armour and weapon stat combinations found only via grinding certain maps in order to craft them. And while it could be argued that yes, the community enforces the metas, when it comes to metas in general ANet still lays the egg first, so to speak. They know the community's temperament in regard to metas and still continue to develop the majority of their content with metas in mind(even if it's only the means to acquire the gear to meet them). What's more they've also backpedaled on their stances regarding the trinity and third party programmes which is no small thing because most raiding requires it and many raiders demand it and they(ANet) for whatever reason want a piece of that demographic.It's true that if all you ever want to do is face roll on open maps and collect your bags from meta events you shouldn't have to change much. If, however, you want something more beyond that limited vision of GW2 then your hand is indeed forced.So could we please not perpetuate this myth that there is no grinding required in GW2? At best it's only a half truth. Well ascended gear is account wide. Legendary gear allows stat swapping. At some point you would have enough different sets and characters at lvl 80 or legendary gear on your main where something you have should work when the meta changes. Wow has 4 seasons per expack. Is that how many stat combos are introduced and each of them meta every 2 years? I don't think so. Support chrono has been meta for over a year now. Also legendaries provide permanent progression. There is no notion of permanent gear progression like that in WoW.Also you imply pw2 aspects via gold purchases. You know that people sell raid clears in WoW too right? I could just as easily purchase gold and get heroic raid tier gear without working for it at all in WoW."Progression" implies advancement, moving forward or just...in a direction. "Permanent gear progression" or "permanent progression" isn't a thing...horizontal progression sure, rather than moving up it moves to the side. Stays on the same level but is more about options rather than power.Some people don't like vertical progression, in fact I'd argue that the majority of GW2s playerbase is vehemently against vertical progression, despite each expac adding more to power creep.Also I'd say GW2s grind is not really that bad. Mostly because you're not necessarily....gaining anything out of it other than mostly just cosmetic "gain" or personal achievement. You don't have to grind anything, it essentially amounts to nothing because there isn't much to "gain" from the grind. Other games with grind, like BDO, actually have something tangible you earn that contributes overall to your character and there is meaning to spending that time doing it. Getting exp for levels, which unlocks more and stronger versions of your skills as well as money for gear which makes those skills deal more damage and allow you to survive longer. GW2 its really just for gold that you'd then use to either craft a legendary, which is really just for cosmetic and convenience purposes, or to buy cosmetics on the TP like Infusions or weapon/armor skins. Thats it.The reason i call legendaries progression is because no matter what new affixes are in the game, you'll immediately have access to them. The person responding to my OP implied the new affixes and/or changed meta is the progression and they're still grinding for that reason.On that note, Wow's progression or even BDO's is an illusion. Seasons in WoW or new weapons to enhance in BDO open a new cap and anyone chasing that cap will be more powerful than anyone who isn't. So really it's like everything you've done becomes invalidated over night and you have to start over again to compete. WoW players are finally waking up to this. It's one of the issues players are having with BFA.How many new weapons/armor do you think they release in BDO? In the years its been out...its been one and that happened very recently, its also only something you even touch if you've hit PEN on everything else because the investment for it is substantial.Also I dislike that outlook on it: "Everything you've done becomes invalidated." Feels kind of defeatist to me, I prefer "More reasons to continue playing the game."The draw I feel to BDO is because there is constantly something I know I can work towards and there is meaning behind it, getting all my Boss gear (armor and weapons) to PEN is a time consuming effort that can require a lot of planning, hours spent grinding and lifeskilling for money, failstacking for higher enhancement chance and luck. WoW/FFXIV I feel similarly. There is a goal I see in the distance, I know what I need to do to get there and I go for it and all that effort, even if some new update or expansion "invalidates" what I did previously just means I get to have that journey all over again to get the satisfaction yet again of achieving that goal.To have the chance to show that the effort and time I put in actually amounted to something; it is not a bad feeling. I mean it is a video game but...who is anyone to tell others how to have fun? So the idea of "that progression is an illusion because it gets invalidated" naw, that progression isn't an illusion...it happened and I get to do more of it. Getting the rare drop, getting the piece of gear I need. In BDO succeeding on upgrading my weapons and armor to TET or PEN.Trust me, I used to think exactly the same way that you do right now. Not so much anymore. All about perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now