Vagrant.7206

I approve of renaming it to fonction gyro though. I think the CC bar would have to be large enough that downed skills couldn't kill it, but a nearby ally could.

I definitely agree with this. I think close matches should reduce rating loss, precisely because it shows that both teams played well, one just happened to play slightly better. Or got lucky. 500-499 should have minimal rating loss for the losers, while 500-0 should have a MASSIVE rating loss for the losers. This incentivizes working with your team and playing until the end. Win gains shouldn't change though IMO, because a win is a win.

Ehhhh, no. A full team of warriors and thieves would not be able to. And other classes, like engi and ele would struggle pretty hard. My point was that a team full of mirages and chronos would be completely meta -- they'd be able to finish the content way faster than most other groups.

Even with these changes, ECSU is still an inferior build because it requires more micromanaging. Even if we got back all our damage and then some, it would have to be significantly more than pre-nerf holo to justify running the ECSU build, because the cost of failure is so high, and it requires to pay even more attention to our rotation. No other class that deals more damage has to worry about that kind of problem.

Yeah, the function gyro has entered almost complete uselessness because of this. It just takes one-two autos from a downed class to nullify its existence. Forget even trying to use it in group combat.

Thanks Ben. I have to agree. The times when I synergize the most with my team are also the times when I get the fewest top stats. I get a bunch of top stats when my team and I don't jive.

They've always whined the loudest, and blown every nerf out of proportion as the thing that "kills" chrono. Yes, because damage is clearly the one and only thing that matters for class to be fun to play. Silly people, huh? Well man, we wouldn't be complaining about damage if we knew engineers had other ways to play, and DPS weren't our only ticket for a spot in a team raid. Healer engi is nowhere near accepted, beyond a funny experiment every now and then, and if i'm not wrong the Scrapper variant of this build got nerfed with this patch, more irrelevant than ever. We never had the chance to be a tank either, the most nearest thing to it was a gimmick Scrapper build for Kite Deimos and that's it, and i have yet to hear if the recent patch destroyed said build. Read back to what I was responding. People claiming chrono shouldn't complain, because they supposedly (I don't know and don't care about who can smack the golem hardest) are on top of dps charts, meaning for a lot of people, damage is all that matters. If you tell them you have to smash #1 really kitten hard and you'll have the highest dps in game, a lot of people would be happy to break their keyboards. The didn't just top the DPS chart. They've also been the go-to support class and tank for a very long time. A team full of chronos and mirages could do all of the raid content quite well.

The ECSU build is going to shoot up in DPS from the Laser's Edge change. Not that it'll be worth playing, but w/e.

Toolbelt skills have always been a part of engineer DPS rotations in PvE. The nerf to overheating means we no longer have access to a significant part of our DPS after overheating in PBM. The meta builds for PvE saw us lose about 4-5k DPS, and we're now lower than power reapers.They didnt lose 4-5k dps.Holo had around~33k dps. You still can get ~31k dps with it. That's an entirely different build. Uses ECSU, sword and pistol, and has to micromanage heat for optimal output. That's not a viable option in a real raid.Had seen guy on YT recorded 30k dps and he left in description can get slightly more than 30k (ok,not 31k xD) but didnt want to try, still used PBM. Still not 4-5k dps loss, tried to do fractals just to see how bad it is, still do way more damage than ppl in 250kps runs , dont do raids for a long time.Wait, why SC would post an unviable (=/= good pick) build in raid section ? You know more than they are? :D First, it's hard to understand what you're saying. Second, they marked the build as mediocre or bad for most bosses except the easiest ones.

Toolbelt skills have always been a part of engineer DPS rotations in PvE. The nerf to overheating means we no longer have access to a significant part of our DPS after overheating in PBM. The meta builds for PvE saw us lose about 4-5k DPS, and we're now lower than power reapers.They didnt lose 4-5k dps.Holo had around~33k dps. You still can get ~31k dps with it.That's an entirely different build. Uses ECSU, sword and pistol, and has to micromanage heat for optimal output. That's not a viable option in a real raid.

The drunk scrapper build has been around for a while now... it's existed in some form or another since scrapper was a thing. It's only coming to prominence now because it's one of the few semi-viable competitive builds for scrapper left. Ironically, what was once a gimmick build has become one of the few left standing. @Ivantreil.3092

It falls over pretty hard against Hard and Soft CC's. Holo has to spend most of its time in close to mid-range combat in order to deal decent damage, and knocking it around or locking it in place can put it in a really bad way. The stability uptime on holo has been nerfed repeatedly for just this reason. Corona burst only provides 4 total seconds of stability, and Elixir U is on a fairly lengthy cooldown (plus only 2 stab). Hard CC (from revs, rangers, warriors, some mesmers, fear necros) can shut holo out. Soft CC's can seriously hinder holo's damage potential. Cripple, chill, weakness, and immobilize can drastically cut down on the damage that a holo can do, because it either can't reach the target, or hits like a wet noodle. Ideally you can do this before they've generated much heat. Holo hits its peak performance about 4-5 seconds into combat. Focusing on the holo or spiking it down at the beginning of combat is ridiculously effective.This is why the spike builds always have Elixir S -- to get themselves out of a stunlock/focus scenario. Conversion builds generally have enough damage reduction to carry them through a short stunlock, but not a long one. 20-25 might requires a build specialized to do that that (IE ECSU), or an enemy who is careless with their condi application (Specifically torment and weakness). Conversion builds can churn out 25 might if an enemy keeps applying torment or weakness -- that's the fault of their opponent though, engis don't choose which condition to convert. Otherwise might will generally hover between 5-15 depending on skills used and what procs:Corona burst can put out 5 might consistentlyElixir U + HGH puts out another 2 mightYou could also use Elixir S for might, but that's kind of a waste of the skill. Throw elixir S is valid, so another 2 might there.Sigil of strength can add might periodically.Rune of Leadership can theoretically convert torment and weakness into 6 might, assuming it procs on those two. Quickness is a different matter, that's a question of kinetic battery and elixir U. There were other offenders with projectile reflection/destruction too, but yeah, scrapper was part of the problem. Engineer weapons have always been in an awkward spot with regards to projectiles, because all of our ranged weapons are projectiles, and the majority of our weapons are ranged. Regardless, this is all irrelevant to the OP's idea.We alrdy had that convo somewhere else and been proved that its not a problem for an engineer to generage that in combat and had a link to Thisjken stream as a proof, no need to start it all over again.This thread is a joke and its weird to see some ppl agree... forums smhYeah, and we came to the conclusion 20-25 might is largely the result of conversion. As I said before, most holos are generally only able to maintain 5-15 might at any given moment, sometimes with more, sometimes less.

20-25 might requires a build specialized to do that that (IE ECSU), or an enemy who is careless with their condi application (Specifically torment and weakness). Conversion builds can churn out 25 might if an enemy keeps applying torment or weakness -- that's the fault of their opponent though, engis don't choose which condition to convert. Otherwise might will generally hover between 5-15 depending on skills used and what procs: Corona burst can put out 5 might consistentlyElixir U + HGH puts out another 2 mightYou could also use Elixir S for might, but that's kind of a waste of the skill. Throw elixir S is valid, so another 2 might there.Sigil of strength can add might periodically.Rune of Leadership can theoretically convert torment and weakness into 6 might, assuming it procs on those two.Quickness is a different matter, that's a question of kinetic battery and elixir U. There were other offenders with projectile reflection/destruction too, but yeah, scrapper was part of the problem. Engineer weapons have always been in an awkward spot with regards to projectiles, because all of our ranged weapons are projectiles, and the majority of our weapons are ranged. Regardless, this is all irrelevant to the OP's idea.

Not to disagree with you that such a nerf would be pointless, but I do want to point out the bold for two reasons:Toolbelts are determined by the utility slot. So in a sense, it is occupying a utility slot. Engi build design relies upon thinking about the toolbelt for each utility slot.The toolbelt is (one of) the stated reasons why engineer doesn't have a weapon swap, and also why we have crappy MH weapons. 5 seconds 45s cool down base and 6 second duration 31s cool down traited has always been wildly out of line. That's elite skill levels of stealth right there. Should really just go down to 2s base. It'd still be worth taking. You can still make plays like prevent stomps, disengage, get tons of value from your healing skill, take a burst on some one. Just not all of them in the span of one stealth.I'm not opposed to adjusting the numbers on throw elixir S. I think 3s is fair, since it is the only on-demand stealth for core engi/holo. I'm just saying that it is not a "free" utility skill as was suggested. The core design of engineer for several years has largely been victory through attrition. Holo is a variation on that theme, encouraging more damage instead of tankiness like scrapper. Not to disagree with you that such a nerf would be pointless, but I do want to point out the bold for two reasons:Toolbelts are determined by the utility slot. So in a sense, it is occupying a utility slot. When it comes to build design, engineers must pick their utility slots with toolbelt in mind.We both know its comes in a package with a nice breakstun-invul utility, hardly can tell "but im taking bad utility just for stealth" when other classes can proudly say so, hence why they arent taking them.Except engineers don't have a choice -- when we pick our utility skills, we must consider the corresponding toolbelts. Ideally you want the toolbelt and utility skill to be valuable. This is why there are clear "winner" and "loser" utility skills. For example: Slick shoes has a good utility skill and a good toolbelt skill, making it a winner.Rocket boots is a fantastic utility skill, but its toolbelt is pretty weak, making it situational.Utility goggles is ok, but its toolbelt is pretty much garbage, making it a loser.This is also why PvE engineer DPS builds have not varied much over the years. There are some clear DPS winners in utility skills/toolbelts that have never been topped (IE rifle turret toolbelt). But in PvP/WvW, non-dps utilities are actually worth considering. I actually edited my post while you were responding to it, I meant it was one of the reasons we don't have weapon swap. Rifle is good at control, but not damage in most situations. If you compare the different engineer weapons on a DPS meter, they're all objectively lower than most other classes' MH weapon DPS. During HoT days, this was a particular problem because projectile reflection/destruction was so rampant.

Not to disagree with you that such a nerf would be pointless, but I do want to point out the bold for two reasons: Toolbelts are determined by the utility slot. So in a sense, it is occupying a utility slot. Engi build design relies upon thinking about the toolbelt for each utility slot.The toolbelt is (one of) the stated reasons why engineer doesn't have a weapon swap, and also why we have crappy MH weapons.

Barring some edge cases, I'm not sure why this is a big problem? Throw Elixir S is the only on-demand stealth skill holo has.

Looks like a modified drunk scrapper build.

Toolbelt skills have always been a part of engineer DPS rotations in PvE. The nerf to overheating means we no longer have access to a significant part of our DPS after overheating in PBM. The meta builds for PvE saw us lose about 4-5k DPS, and we're now lower than power reapers.

They've always whined the loudest, and blown every nerf out of proportion as the thing that "kills" chrono. Yes, because damage is clearly the one and only thing that matters for class to be fun to play. Silly people, huh? When it comes to raids and high-end content, yes. With that logic, every class with top dps, no matter how simple and boring rotation it has, is the most fun class to play. And for many people I am sure this is true. Eh some people sign up to be a walking DPS number, it's their right.A lot of raids (even the non-elite ones) prefer people that play meta builds. While engineer is a bit more flexible than other classes, not being meta in ANY of the fights will make people annoyed, because you're more likely to fail. A lot of raid fights are DPS checks. And for fractals... getting through content as fast as possible is how most people prefer to do it. The fastest way through content is high DPS.

I was also wondering how protection and other damage mitigators worked with it. Have you had a chance to try those out?

They've always whined the loudest, and blown every nerf out of proportion as the thing that "kills" chrono. Yes, because damage is clearly the one and only thing that matters for class to be fun to play. Silly people, huh?When it comes to raids and high-end content, yes.

Then don't make them a tank, or at least don't use 'tank' to describe them. I would be fine if they were a unique damage dealer, mainly being a glass cannon and using there damage to give themselves barrier to support themselves or something like that. Except they're bad at DPS too. Scrapper has always existed in this really odd limbo in PvE, because it was always designed for PvP. The devs keep saying it's supposed to be a tank, but chrono and warriors have always made better tanks. Then, after it gets enough buffs to be viable in PvP, they nerf the crap out of it, nerfing PvE builds in the process. Scrapper healer is basically gone now (lost a large source of healing AND health in one fell swoop), and scrapper is still not any more of a tank.

Watched the videos, pretty impressive. Your control scheme is confusing as hell though -- what's going on with the numbers and letters? So would you say it's better to use the build in 1v1s, or as a supporting role in teamfights?

They've always whined the loudest, and blown every nerf out of proportion as the thing that "kills" chrono.

Looks like ECSU is the new meta for holo. However, the ranking shows it really low on the totem pole. Condi engi doesn't even show until about halfway down the list. Power holo shows about 3/4 of the way down. Ranger and Necro also seem to be in the pit with us. But booooiiiii look at elementalist numbers. https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/