Let us talk about some conditions.

[Avion Blade.4869]

Chill is the condition I die to when it is reapplied too quickly  First it makes you move slowly (on foot), and second it slows recharge time. That is two things in one condition. Okay that is fine, but let us talk about the reapplication of it (meaning to say, it comes back after being cleansed by another skill or the same skill).

 

The issue, is that even if cleansed, it can be quickly reapplied, making your cleanse skills kind of vain, but also useless due to recharges being mitigated.

 

It is not like cleansing a huge stack of other condis, and then when those condis are reapplied, it is not as deadly as the bulk stack you just cleansed because they need to land the same burst to get the same damage. But, chill doesn't stack, just one application of it does wonders for the opponent. And it lands the same effect even after the cleanse.

 

Now I don't die to chill the moment it is there, but I die to it because it is reapplied easily (after all my cleanses are exhausted). It is literally something that should be talked about. I understand this is a condition that is helpful for certain classes, and that is fine, it is a counter to quickness boons, and to high mobility builds, benefiting the slow mobility classes.

I believe chill could be adjusted to where it is not so bad during the day, but it is really bad during the night. So the 66% slow movement speed and 40% slower recharge time would be night time, and then for the day time 33% movement speed reduction and 20% slower recharge time would make sense. 

As for burn, we could do something similar, more deadly during the day, not as deadly at night. Instead of flat-line same damage day/night, could be 33% more deadly day, 33% less deadly at night.

 

In this way, certain conditions would be stronger during one half of the day. 

 

This might even open up for further discussions on other conditions being affected by day/night effects or even adjusted effects.

 

For example: Bleed could become more unique in that, it is initially not deadly, but every second, or tick afterward, it does more damage then the tick before (hence bleed), but it is the one condition that is auto-cleansed by any heal (even if it doesn't have a condition cleanser). For example, each tick could do 1.1 more damage than prior, until cleansed or condition time expires. Instead of 100, 100, 100, each tick. It could be, 100, 110, 121, 133, etc (this is just a single bleed unit). Bleeding is worse if you don't heal it, or condi cleanse. For balance, give all classes the ability to auto-heal bleed, built it to any heal skill, so that against condi, heal skills always heal bleed.

 

Therefore, bleed is much more punishing, if you don't use condi cleanse, or normal heal skill.

 

Thus, bleed condition could force an early heal to put opponents out of their comfortable rotations in skill use.

 

Torment was already reworked, so I won't talk about that.

 

Confusion seems fine to me, it is balanced in that you don't take damage by not using skills, except for the tiny damage when applied regardless.

 

Fear is fine.

 

Immobilize is fine.

 

What do you think, let me know! Looking forward for some insights. I like to see variation in condition usage.

Edited August 31, 2021 by Avion Blade.4869

[Sviel.7493]

I don't think your solutions are great, but I do agree that the reapplication rate vs. cleanse rate balance is not great either.  There's huge discrepancies between classes and builds in terms of both and that makes it basically impossible to have any semblance of balance.  In certain match-ups, the condi build will feel op.  In others, it will feel like it accomplishes nothing.  There's no fixing this without a full redesign that accounts for such things from the beginning.  Otherwise, balanced or not, condis will continue to be controversial because they do not fit well into the base combat system.

Edited August 31, 2021 by Sviel.7493

[ArchonWing.9480]

Are there builds that can stack chill that much?

Feel free to share *cough*

[Xenesis.6389]

Heh.

Immobilize is not fine to me, it's spammable by a certain class that also has the longest range in the game, and can be covered by more spammable conditions, while locking you out of your most basic defense in dodge. Resistance isn't even widely available to counter this, necro's don't even get access to it and they have to find some funky way to send it back, and yet most cleanses in the game are on long cooldowns, only getting rid of 1-3 conditions at most. This condition should not last more than 5s or restack duration if it's going be this spammable.

 

The condition isn't a problem on all other classes because of their limited availability on those classes so it's more of a tactical use for bursting like chains of light scepter 3 on guards, or pin down on longbow 5 on warrior. Ideally I don't even think immobilize should be in the game, and cripple really should be taking it's place with like a 75% movement reduction instead, but that's a pipe dream.

Why does chill have a dual purpose in reduce movement speed by 66%, and skill cooldowns by 66%, sometimes triple purpose when turned into bleed too on reaper, and yet cripple only does 50% movement reduction? Chill should probably be reworked to remove the movement reduction part, and cripple should be improved to 66% movement reduction. So they both serve to do one purpose and do it well. Or maybe anet will just read this and increase cripple to 66% alone. 🙄

 

 Torment was reworked for pve, so obviously don't agree with it's recent changes in regards to wvw. It won't change I'm sure cause pve, but what will happen is cough they will make another torment spamming class with even more torment to make up for that loss, so they can sell it in the expansion. Maybe fear should be reworked to have the affected target be completely paralyzed in fear in one spot, rather than run away to make up for the torment nerf. Or I guess bring a druid friend along to spam immobilize on them. 🙄

 

Don't have a problem with anything else, but think resistance should probably be made more conveniently available to every class.

[Avion Blade.4869]

25 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Are there builds that can stack chill that much?

Feel free to share *cough*

 

There are sigils that inflict chill on crits with chances, and foods with chill on crits as well, and I think runes too, and then if you combine those with a class that can dish out chills with traits and/or weapons/utilities, it makes it really powerful. 

I'm probably just one of the people that encounters them more than others in the same way someone might be running into burns more than I do.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

51 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Are there builds that can stack chill that much?

Feel free to share *cough*

I'm pretty sure that Reaper is capable of doing that without much problem, the other class that comes to mind to do that is Tempest focusing on Auras.

[KrHome.1920]

Quote

I believe chill could be adjusted to where it is not so bad during the day, but it is really bad during the night. So the 66% slow movement speed and 40% slower recharge time would be night time, and then for the day time 33% movement speed reduction and 20% slower recharge time would make sense. 

 

Did you realize, that chill is basically the spec mechanic of reaper? And it has been nerfed already in the past. It used to shorten leap distances by 66% as well. This nerf caused some issues for reaper which anet tried to hotfix with massive burst buffs for reaper shroud, but less flexibility for reaper builds in general - basically any gm trait for reaper except onslaught is useless now.

 

Since you want to nerf it further: How do you plan to rework reaper accordingly?

 

Edited August 31, 2021 by KrHome.1920

[Nimrod.9240]

4 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

I'm pretty sure that Reaper is capable of doing that without much problem, the other class that comes to mind to do that is Tempest focusing on Auras.

Oh tempest for sure! Lets see on my arcane tempest build i run in WvW.

Frozen ground 5 Second dutation pulsing 2 Seconds chill, I think comes to around 8-9 Seconds total? (and AoE lulz)

Arcane blast 3 Seconds x2 = 6 Seconds (and AoE lulz)

Arcane brilliance 3 Seconds (and AoE lulz)

Arcane Power 3 Seconds x4 = 12 Seconds

So up to 30 Seconds. If i would change lightning flash for Flash-Freeze + 4 Seconds on top. Oh and theres lesser arcane shield +3 Seconds in case the enemy hits you. We at 37 seconds now. Oh and then there is the frostaura on overload and rebound (+ potentially flash freeze), that applies also chill if you get hit, but I dont know the duration (sorry!). Oh and you could run frost bow instead of flash freeze! Whats that, 5 Seconds x 2 bows x 2 uses?

So we are at 40-50 Seconds? Highly theoretical though, you have to literally camp water. Can you even chain everything toghter in a rotation? I never tried to be honest. Plus its more fun to camp in earth and immob spam anyway, lol.

 

[Xenesis.6389]

38 minutes ago, Nimrod.9240 said:

Oh tempest for sure! Lets see on my arcane tempest build i run in WvW.

Frozen ground 5 Second dutation pulsing 2 Seconds chill, I think comes to around 8-9 Seconds total? (and AoE lulz)

Arcane blast 3 Seconds x2 = 6 Seconds (and AoE lulz)

Arcane brilliance 3 Seconds (and AoE lulz)

Arcane Power 3 Seconds x4 = 12 Seconds

So up to 30 Seconds. If i would change lightning flash for Flash-Freeze + 4 Seconds on top. Oh and theres lesser arcane shield +3 Seconds in case the enemy hits you. We at 37 seconds now. Oh and then there is the frostaura on overload and rebound (+ potentially flash freeze), that applies also chill if you get hit, but I dont know the duration (sorry!). Oh and you could run frost bow instead of flash freeze! Whats that, 5 Seconds x 2 bows x 2 uses?

So we are at 40-50 Seconds? Highly theoretical though, you have to literally camp water. Can you even chain everything toghter in a rotation? I never tried to be honest. Plus its more fun to camp in earth and immob spam anyway, lol.

 

 

That um, sounds like something fun to explore for roaming, only worry I would have is in zergs and giving them free alacrity 😆

Which reminds me... why do people still use the stupid chilling fog tactivator on zergs instead of supply drop....

[Redpawa.4108]

Have you tried Svanir runes? Yes chill is powerful, but it's also the only condition with a rune set that deletes it.

Additionally I assume you are ele, because they generally seem to have the worst time with it so also consider Earthen Blessing or just chilling the (presumably reaper) player harder.

Edited August 31, 2021 by Redpawa.4108

[ArchonWing.9480]

3 hours ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Which reminds me... why do people still use the stupid chilling fog tactivator on zergs instead of supply drop....

The same reason why people run EWP and only pull it when the enemy zerg is on it. (if at all)

It's a pretty good troll at camps though.

Edited September 1, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

6 hours ago, Nimrod.9240 said:

Oh tempest for sure! Lets see on my arcane tempest build i run in WvW.

Frozen ground 5 Second dutation pulsing 2 Seconds chill, I think comes to around 8-9 Seconds total? (and AoE lulz)

Arcane blast 3 Seconds x2 = 6 Seconds (and AoE lulz)

Arcane brilliance 3 Seconds (and AoE lulz)

Arcane Power 3 Seconds x4 = 12 Seconds

So up to 30 Seconds. If i would change lightning flash for Flash-Freeze + 4 Seconds on top. Oh and theres lesser arcane shield +3 Seconds in case the enemy hits you. We at 37 seconds now. Oh and then there is the frostaura on overload and rebound (+ potentially flash freeze), that applies also chill if you get hit, but I dont know the duration (sorry!). Oh and you could run frost bow instead of flash freeze! Whats that, 5 Seconds x 2 bows x 2 uses?

So we are at 40-50 Seconds? Highly theoretical though, you have to literally camp water. Can you even chain everything toghter in a rotation? I never tried to be honest. Plus its more fun to camp in earth and immob spam anyway, lol.

 

I'd also like to add:

Condition duration doubles all these times.

There's a runeset that works on Tempest using Shouts.

There's also an on-hit sigil and a weaponswap sigil.

There's Chill food, but only at night I think?

 

Its just theorycrafting but I imagine permanent Chill while still doing heavy Burning+Bleeding using Fire and Earth is possible, if you go for a full condi damage+duration build or something.

Edited September 1, 2021 by Hannelore.8153

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

Maybe you should stop attacking me while I have frost aura up?  

[lodjur.1284]

Night/day cycle shouldn't affect combat.

 

Night sigil should be reworked, it's just better force at night and worse force at day. That one food too, but it's already pretty terrible so doesn't really impact anything.

 

Immobilize is definitively not fine

 

Fear as well

 

Chill should get a nerf, at the very least it shouldn't affect attunement swaps... Imo it should be about as weak as alacrity and be worse at crippling than cripple

 

Also the bleed change is sure something....

 

For WvW it would probably be fine and not matter much. But for the sake of PvE this one has some interesting effects such as increasing the damage of a 30 sec bleed by about 740%, maybe slightly overkill.

 

An additive version were it sent 100>110>120>130 would probably be somewhat balanceable and would make bleed a bit more interesting in both WvW and PvE. Atm I do agree bleed lacks identity since it's just weaker burning.

 

However I believe either of these to be quite mean to the poor server hamsters as they add a lot of math that has to be tracked for every individual bleed stack. 

 

Edited September 2, 2021 by lodjur.1284

[Svarty.8019]

On 8/31/2021 at 7:24 PM, Avion Blade.4869 said:

Chill is the condition I die to when it is reapplied too quickly  First it makes you move slowly (on foot), and second it slows recharge time. That is two things in one condition. Okay that is fine, 

 

[..]

I believe chill could be adjusted to where it is not so bad during the day, but it is really bad during the night. So the 66% slow movement speed and 40% slower recharge time would be night time, and then for the day time 33% movement speed reduction and 20% slower recharge time would make sense. 

1. I don't think that's fine.

2. What the heck is that solution?! Bizarre and unhelpful is what. No.

Instead -> Chill should be split

- Chill gets deleted / replaced and,

- things that currently do Chill should now do Cripple + Slow. 

 

This would obviously break many things (not least boon conversions), so it's likely a big job. It would, however, give more CONTROL to the balance team. Over the years, power creep has been inevitable because developers lose control over balance in the search for ever more novelty - with a holistic perspective, you can understand that this all ties in to the impending 2012 eschaton. It's obvious now you see it!

 

On 8/31/2021 at 7:48 PM, Sviel.7493 said:

I don't think your solutions are great, but I do agree that the reapplication rate vs. cleanse rate balance is not great either. 

This. One my friends (I know, right?!) loves PvP but says the game is unplayable due to spammable conditions. He advocates the time-worn-tested solution of a brief period of immunity to reapplication.

Edited September 3, 2021 by Svarty.8019

[Aeolus.3615]

On 8/31/2021 at 9:52 PM, KrHome.1920 said:

 

Did you realize, that chill is basically the spec mechanic of reaper? And it has been nerfed already in the past. It used to shorten leap distances by 66% as well. This nerf caused some issues for reaper which anet tried to hotfix with massive burst buffs for reaper shroud, but less flexibility for reaper builds in general - basically any gm trait for reaper except onslaught is useless now.

 

Since you want to nerf it further: How do you plan to rework reaper accordingly?

 

 

Condi rev(rev overal has quite some chill aplyance as well) chills and aply torment on chill as well, its not only reaper alone.

 

Edited September 3, 2021 by Aeolus.3615