WvW restructuring has me worried

[Rohkeus.9401]

So after reading through the ANET post for Wvw changes i have some questions:

 

As a Gandara player since launch, the way i read this: servers are gone, the Gandara you fought for for 9 years is gone,  will i even get a T-kitten ? Feels kinda empty.

I heard the advice to simply build a Gandara  community guild, but why would u even join ? Wont all the community commanders  go with their guilds ?

Since u can only join 1 guild per season and since guilds appear to be segregated by levels of try-hard (from community guild to 95% benchmarks) wont this completely separate the community ? And hence the more casual are gona get shitstomped ? And even if they balance it, i always found the mix of casual and guild groups to be more interesting. And a way to disseminate game knowledge through the community ?

If the guild players are annoyed of the pesky plebs  and  fire field griefers, wouldn't a hidden tag and a more strict separation of buffs between the group and non group be a more measured response then gutting the server community ?  Maybe take a page from planetside 2 and have guild only mobile spawn points or even better guild only mobile blimp spawn points(see zhaitan fight but player controlled and with gliders jumping off the side)?

Will this solve the problem of the frustrated  community commanders begging the casuals to get on voice since there is no commander voice option  or guild voice option ? Cause that seamed to be the main problem with casual wvw ?

How will this solve the distribution of players ? Are we pretending there is not gona be a bunch of tier 1 super alliances with the same pooling of players at the top ? If the distribution of players is the problem why charge for server transfer ? Make the server system more robust and free and accept players will pool at the top and the guilds who want pure gvg can move to the empty ones ?

 

On first impression it feels i am losing in terms community and diversity of experience

 

Cheers,

Rohk 

[ASP.8093]

A team will consist of more than one alliance.

 

This is fundamentally about making it easier to algorithmically distribute teams because now you're not stuck with just a few host servers + links, while still allowing groups of players who want to play together to play together.

[Marikus.1875]

Just now, ASP.8093 said:

This is fundamentally about making it easier to algorithmically distribute teams because now you're not stuck with just a few host servers + links, while still allowing groups of players who want to play together to play together.

To add to this a little it can also create a healthy level of rivalry between guilds/alliances formed to reinvigorate the game mode and add a little more meaning to it.

[Danikat.8537]

I think it's going to be good for WvW overall, but I'm a bit worried about what it will mean for me personally for the same reason. I've been on the same server (Desolation) since the game launched and I've had a really good experience with WvW, with not just active maps but often open tags with commanders who are patient and welcoming towards new or less experience people and groups who are fairly relaxed in general.

 

Both the guilds I'm in are social/PvE focused and while some people in both play WvW they're not on my server. I don't know if either guild is planning to join an Alliance or what it will be like if they do. If they don't I'm not sure how I'm going to find people to play WvW with (I know I can just join and be dropped into whichever Team has a space, but that's not choosing). I only do it intermittently, some weeks I can be playing for 18 hours, others I won't play at all so I doubt a WvW guild will take me.

 

It might be I'm worrying about nothing and either through my existing guilds or some other method I'll find a great Alliance or Team to join...but I don't know, so right now it's worrying me.

 

(Also I hope they do give us a title or something to acknowledge the server you fought for. I'm not sure how that would work, I think they'd have to either set a date and offer free transfers beforehand so everyone could be on the one they want to be associated with, or otherwise let players choose, but it would be nice to do something.)

[Danikat.8537]

43 minutes ago, Rohkeus.9401 said:

How will this solve the distribution of players ? Are we pretending there is not gona be a bunch of tier 1 super alliances with the same pooling of players at the top ? If the distribution of players is the problem why charge for server transfer ? Make the server system more robust and free and accept players will pool at the top and the guilds who want pure gvg can move to the empty ones ?

I think this will be fixed by the fact that while players can join a guild (and the guild can choose who joins) and then guilds can band together into Alliances they will be capped at 500 players which is apparently 20-25% of a Team according to the World Restructing FAQ, and players can't choose which Team their Alliance is in. So there's no way for all the tier 1 WvW players to join together.

 

This image was posted on the first announcement, as an example of how a team might be made up and I found it really helpful: https://d3b4yo2b5lbfy.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/a3c5eWvW_image1.png

 

(In this context remember that the two Alliances could not choose to be in the same Team, they were grouped together automatically.)

[Astralporing.1957]

41 minutes ago, ASP.8093 said:

A team will consist of more than one alliance.

Yes, but since teams will be dynamically created, all sense of former server identity will go out of the window. This will be basically the same as what originally happened with PvE server identity after megaserver system got introduced.

Notice, btw, that alliances will not help all that much here, because the size of alliances will be capped as 500 (so, the same as the max size of a single guild).

Quote

This is fundamentally about making it easier to algorithmically distribute teams because now you're not stuck with just a few host servers + links, while still allowing groups of players who want to play together to play together.

That's the problematic issue. This kind of fair player distribution will end up causing abovementioned destruction of any longterm team identity (well, beyond guild identity anyway). On the other hand, trying to preserve that kind of identity and history is bound to result in unequal matchups. Unfortunately, i don't see any way to retain both of those things.

Edited September 11, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[ASP.8093]

2 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

That's the problematic issue. This kind of fair player distribution will end up causing abovementioned destruction of any longterm team identity (well, beyond guild identity anyway). On the other hand, trying to preserve that kind of identity and history is bound to result in unequal matchups. Unfortunately, i don't see any way to retain both of those things.

That's exactly why it's a good change.

[Rohkeus.9401]

My concern was more on the loss of the server identity but let me try to chew through this distribution thing. 500 players is enough to fill 3 maps + extra. (assuming 500 per map /3). If this is a allianace you wouldn't assume they will log on at random times. The algorithmic distribution would be a source of balance is it was random shuffle with a bias of maybe groups of 20? But hers the thing isn't the current server makeup made up of players that were full random shuffled at the start of the game (-transfers) ? Means its a mix of casuals, semi serious guilds and try hards ? (assumptions ofc). But now you might have a band of 500 tryhards. Would it matter how they got shuffled ?

[Astralporing.1957]

11 minutes ago, ASP.8093 said:

That's exactly why it's a good change.

Well, it is good or bad depending on what you value more. I can definitely see this causing some players to quit playing the mode. I can also see it bringing some other players back.

Personally, i think that server imbalance became so bad that it cannot just be ignored and changes are necessary, but i also understand why it can make some people worried. Especially, since (unlike most players of my current guild) i have been a Gandara player since the very beginning. Which is something that will lose any meaning with the coming of the alliance system. And which is something that will make me quite sad.

Edited September 11, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[Gibson.4036]

So the hardcore WvW guilds with 500 active members will be grouped together with similar, forming three 2000 player shards to fight each other. 

Which will be awesome for them.

Meanwhile the system might group together four 500 player PvX guilds who have small 30 player teams who WvW, making that tier into a ghost town?

And it may group together 50 small guilds of ten players a piece?

Am I totally not understanding how this will work?

 

 

[ASP.8093]

2 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

So the hardcore WvW guilds with 500 active members will be grouped together with similar, forming three 2000 player shards to fight each other. 

Which will be awesome for them.

Meanwhile the system might group together four 500 player PvX guilds who have small 30 player teams who WvW, making that tier into a ghost town?

And it may group together 50 small guilds of ten players a piece?

Am I totally not understanding how this will work?

It only counts active players who've designated that guild as their primary WvW guild.

 

Your full-roster PvX guild that has 20 WvW players won't count as a 500-player guild.

 

A side benefit is that if 20 more PvEers decide they want to do WvW with their PvX guild, it will likely be easier for them to get on the same team as their friends. (Whereas they may have to navigate the incredibly-cursed transfer system right now.)

[Gibson.4036]

Just now, ASP.8093 said:

It only counts active players who've designated that guild as their primary WvW guild.

 

Your full-roster PvX guild that has 20 WvW players won't count as a 500-player guild.

 

A side benefit is that if 20 more PvEers decide they want to do WvW with their PvX guild, it will likely be easier for them to get on the same team as their friends. (Whereas they may have to navigate the incredibly-cursed transfer system right now.)

Oh okay. So I’m guessing this will be measured by how many people from a guild stepped into WvW last matchup? And what guild they were repping when they did?

So then everyone chooses which guild they’re repping in WvW each matchup and is locked in for the length of it while in WvW?

[ASP.8093]

8 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Oh okay. So I’m guessing this will be measured by how many people from a guild stepped into WvW last matchup? And what guild they were repping when they did?

So then everyone chooses which guild they’re repping in WvW each matchup and is locked in for the length of it while in WvW?

Hopefully this covers most of your questions:

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/studio-update-world-restructuring-and-the-future-of-world-vs-world/

 

Some highlights:

 

> Matchmaking will initially use factors such as WvW participation and playtime to place players, guilds, and alliances on teams, but we’re open to adding additional variables to matchmaking (e.g., time zone) once we’ve ironed out the initial kinks with the system.

 

> Before a season begins, players can select which of their current guilds (and by extension, the alliance) they’d like to play with for that season. Once matchmaking occurs, any changes to a player’s selected guild will not take effect until the next season. While the composition of each team is static during a season, you’ll be matched up against different opponents each week using the existing one-up, one-down match up system.

 

(A "season" is "up to eight weeks.")

 

> Active WvW players that have not selected a WvW guild before the start of a season will be automatically matchmade onto a team. New players, or players that were inactive for an extended period before the start of a season, will not be automatically placed, but will have the option to choose which team they’d like to join. Teams will become locked (or “full”) once they’ve reached the population cap, like the current system.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

I just don't understand people. After all this time we're finally getting Guild Wars and players are worried about team identity when servers have been plagued with mass bandwagoning since many years.

 

Its not like anyone on your team has actually stayed there the entire time, maybe a few dozen players at most. And those of us on link servers already had any sense of team identity stripped away from us years ago, we aren't even allowed to carry our server name into battle, just our guild tag.

 

Its time to stop holding onto the past and move on. Its already played out for nearly a decade.

Edited September 11, 2021 by Hannelore.8153

[Substance E.4852]

1 hour ago, Hannelore.8153 said:

I just don't understand people. After all this time we're finally getting Guild Wars and players are worried about team identity when servers have been plagued with mass bandwagoning since many years.

 

Pretty sure when people asked for "actual Guild Wars" they were referring to structured pvp modes and not a system that will see the top slot forever dominated by whatever Alliance manages to Katamari up the most serious players

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

11 minutes ago, Substance E.4852 said:

Pretty sure when people asked for "actual Guild Wars" they were referring to structured pvp modes and not a system that will see the top slot forever dominated by whatever Alliance manages to Katamari up the most serious players

Alliances are only about 20% of a team. Its deliberately limited to keep that from happening. It'll be physically impossible for an Alliance to dominate a whole team with only 500 players max, that'd be like a single guild dominating an entire server which currently doesn't happen much if at all.

 

You'll see at least 15-ish Alliances just in a single matchup, and it'll probably be far more since not every Alliance is actually going to be saturated with guilds, players and playtime.

Edited September 12, 2021 by Hannelore.8153

[Gibson.4036]

1 hour ago, ASP.8093 said:

Hopefully this covers most of your questions:

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/studio-update-world-restructuring-and-the-future-of-world-vs-world/

 

Some highlights:

 

> Matchmaking will initially use factors such as WvW participation and playtime to place players, guilds, and alliances on teams, but we’re open to adding additional variables to matchmaking (e.g., time zone) once we’ve ironed out the initial kinks with the system.

 

> Before a season begins, players can select which of their current guilds (and by extension, the alliance) they’d like to play with for that season. Once matchmaking occurs, any changes to a player’s selected guild will not take effect until the next season. While the composition of each team is static during a season, you’ll be matched up against different opponents each week using the existing one-up, one-down match up system.

 

(A "season" is "up to eight weeks.")

 

> Active WvW players that have not selected a WvW guild before the start of a season will be automatically matchmade onto a team. New players, or players that were inactive for an extended period before the start of a season, will not be automatically placed, but will have the option to choose which team they’d like to join. Teams will become locked (or “full”) once they’ve reached the population cap, like the current system.

Thanks. I had read the blog post, but had difficulty reading out how the various parts actually work. Probably because it’s not something I’m familiar with or have thought a lot about.

Your highlights helped! I’m sure a lot of it will be clearer as it gets implemented and we actually interact with it.

[Veprovina.4876]

3 hours ago, Rohkeus.9401 said:

So after reading through the ANET post for Wvw changes i have some questions:

 

As a Gandara player since launch, the way i read this: servers are gone, the Gandara you fought for for 9 years is gone,  will i even get a T-kitten ? Feels kinda empty.

I heard the advice to simply build a Gandara  community guild, but why would u even join ? Wont all the community commanders  go with their guilds ?

Since u can only join 1 guild per season and since guilds appear to be segregated by levels of try-hard (from community guild to 95% benchmarks) wont this completely separate the community ? And hence the more casual are gona get shitstomped ? And even if they balance it, i always found the mix of casual and guild groups to be more interesting. And a way to disseminate game knowledge through the community ?

If the guild players are annoyed of the pesky plebs  and  fire field griefers, wouldn't a hidden tag and a more strict separation of buffs between the group and non group be a more measured response then gutting the server community ?  Maybe take a page from planetside 2 and have guild only mobile spawn points or even better guild only mobile blimp spawn points(see zhaitan fight but player controlled and with gliders jumping off the side)?

Will this solve the problem of the frustrated  community commanders begging the casuals to get on voice since there is no commander voice option  or guild voice option ? Cause that seamed to be the main problem with casual wvw ?

How will this solve the distribution of players ? Are we pretending there is not gona be a bunch of tier 1 super alliances with the same pooling of players at the top ? If the distribution of players is the problem why charge for server transfer ? Make the server system more robust and free and accept players will pool at the top and the guilds who want pure gvg can move to the empty ones ?

 

On first impression it feels i am losing in terms community and diversity of experience

 

Cheers,

Rohk 

As a Gandara player, and a player that's in multiple WvW Gandara guilds - i feel you. 😞 

I feel like i'll have to choose which guild i'm fighting for in a season and i don't like it.

We'll see i guess...

[SexyMofo.8923]

Too much worrying about a match when winning doesn’t matter.  

[Kelly.5293]

I get it but... I'm on Maguuma and I see the server as a whole as my guild and team as a pug. Think, Breakfast Club but with more swagger.

I pug every night with many of the same complete randoms. I feel like this will remove all the camaraderie for those who pug for a server. I'll just be blue..or red or green.. What if we did this to all the sports teams? Everyone's just blue, red or green. Sounds super boring.. This will force me to join a guild, lose my play style and yet still just play for one of 3 colors.

I thought rivalries was the point of WvW? I guess we're all friends now? Maybe they don't understand the nature of playing WvW as a pug?

I don't know about this.

Edited September 12, 2021 by Kelly.5293

[Dawdler.8521]

8 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yes, but since teams will be dynamically created, all sense of former server identity will go out of the window. This will be basically the same as what originally happened with PvE server identity after megaserver system got introduced.

Notice, btw, that alliances will not help all that much here, because the size of alliances will be capped as 500 (so, the same as the max size of a single guild).

That's the problematic issue. This kind of fair player distribution will end up causing abovementioned destruction of any longterm team identity (well, beyond guild identity anyway). On the other hand, trying to preserve that kind of identity and history is bound to result in unequal matchups. Unfortunately, i don't see any way to retain both of those things.

But you are saying here that you have a server identity where the 3000+ on your server probably dont give a kitten about you (or well, 95% of them most likely dont even know who you are), yet you wont have any identity on a more tightly knit 500 man capped alliance, that is effectivly like a large guild with some better player management to form identifyable groups within the alliance.

You're saying thousands of random players that you dont know and dont know you matter so much more for identity than a guild of people playing together. Guilds. In WvW. In Guild Wars 2.

That's just sad.

General sidenote: Comparisons with the megaservers is a bad idea since it probably saved GW2 from the usual MMO death back in 2014. The initial population boom was over, servers where lacking players and there where not enough people to do meta events. The only ones that "suffered" where the people that had their unofficial designated roleplayer worlds. But even then the megaserver tech prioritize guild and world first. So if alliances is anything like megaservers, I'd say it's going to be swell.

Edited September 12, 2021 by Dawdler.8521

[yoni.7015]

I am pretty sure Server identity will just be replaced with alliance identity. 

[The Fear.3865]

Done 🤔

Edited September 12, 2021 by The Fear.3865

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

It's the weekend. 

[Astralporing.1957]

3 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

But you are saying here that you have a server identity where the 3000+ on your server probably dont give a kitten about you (or well, 95% of them most likely dont even know who you are), yet you wont have any identity on a more tightly knit 500 man capped alliance, that is effectivly like a large guild with some better player management to form identifyable groups within the alliance.

Sure, most of them almost certainly do not recognize me. That's not surprising, seeing as i am not a dedicated WvW player, and do that content semi-casually, on on and off basis, when i feel like it. I do recognize a lot of guilds and players in there though. Whenever i enter, i feel like home.

After alliance goes in, i won't be in a tigh-knit 500 man alliance. Those will be made up out of WvW-focused guilds. My guild (which is primarily PvE-based) will end up being one of the ones randomly assigned to patch the holes.

Quote

You're saying thousands of random players that you dont know and dont know you matter so much more for identity than a guild of people playing together. Guilds. In WvW. In Guild Wars 2.

See above. I did mention earlier that WvW guilds will retain their indentity - but most WvW players (or, at least, most players on Gandara) are not in those guilds. As such, they will never be part of that identity in the future. They will no longer have "their" server they could be proud of and indentify with.

You may think that it does not matter, but to many players it does.

Edited September 12, 2021 by Astralporing.1957