New elite specialization: The Vindicator

[draxynnic.3719]

15 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

This comment is fairly disingenuous.  People (not me) wanted a competitive power dps spec with GS and cleave damage.  Unless the numbers and rotation look good on Tuesday (or are buffed more before EoD release) it's unlikely the spec currently fills the "competitive" part of that sentence.  People were not looking just for GS and cleave, but all 3

Also as someone who did want more ritualist related things, I personally like the urn.  The people complaining about the Urn are not likely the same people that wanted rit style gameplay

I wouldn't say my comment is "disingenuous" so much as "I haven't done the maths". Hard to do so since, unlike the first preview stream, they didn't give us the power on the build so people could actually work out the coefficients. We don't know what gear the vindicator was using to get those tooltip numbers.

 

But yeah, from a qualitative perspective, it's definitely a power cleave setup, which is what people were asking for. There are people who now seem to be complaining about how that means it's likely to be balanced so that it's less effective against single targets... which, to me, seems to be a pretty obvious balance consequence of having more of an AoE focus, at least when it comes to competitive modes (why would you use ever use a single-target oriented weaponset if the cleave weapon is just plain better even against a single target?). The point I'm making is that a lot of people wanted a power cleave setup, and it certainly seems to qualify as that.

 

The one wrinkle that I can see is that, like previous revenant elites, there's a mix of damage and support in there, and I think that's leading to fears that players will get locked out of doing damage because all their skills have flipped over to Kurzick skills. This seems, however, like something which you have the tools to overcome (use the alliance switch skill, switch to the other legend until the alliance switch skill recharges, or just bite the bullet, use the Kurzick skill, and take a bit of pressure off your healers). 

 

How the numbers look is something that we'll need to look at when we actually get numbers. There's also an aspect that the Vindicator would still have weaponswap, so as long as greatsword as the alternative set to sword/sword does more damage than the currently available alternatives, then it's likely to be a boost when it comes to DPS roles.

[RabbitUp.8294]

21 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

You can still compare values between skills shown. Also he got might during a skill which allowed some calculations. Gs2 had a 2k tooltip. The damage dodge had 2,5 and spear 2,4. 3rd gs aa 1,379. Thats why im confident to say that dodge will be a dps loss unless tooltips were wrong or skills got buffed after. You have to stay inside 5 enemies to get might, doesnt really work with hammer burst.

You only get the 15% mod after dodging. very bad idea in pvp on a glass build. The saving grace could be shown pvp values while pve would have way higher values. Still would be a 0cc spec which almost instantly disqualifies it from most instanced pve unless it does 40k+ dps. A low cd low energy cost skill with high damage is also extremely bad. Gs2 is such a skill and it promotes camping gs and only spaming that skill. Very boring and bad design.

That's not how it works. You can't compare skills when you don't know how much power he had on.

Different skills scale differently with power. You can't say that the elite will always do 50% more damage than gs2. If it has a large coefficient like CMC said, then the gap will increase for large amounts of power.

 

[Parthenos Polias.5683]

2 hours ago, Telgum.6071 said:

Yeah dude is not like you have a guy dedicated on giving you stability and aegis. Plus no dodge? You have an invulnerability every few seconds, there are tools to recharge it.

There is also a thing called sigil of stamina with no CD on use that will constantly proc on kill.

 

Yeah dude is not like you have to dodge whenever the commander gives the order.
Dodging isn't about avoiding CC (stab does this) or blocking dmg (aegis does this).
It's about a quick change of direction ; fake push ; corridor crossing ; etc.

If you waste your stab, aegis or invul on those moves, then they're gone for the real fight time.

But maybe you are speaking about brainless bot, trying to zerg but without stacking on the tag or following orders on vocal.

[Telgum.6071]

32 minutes ago, Parthenos Polias.5683 said:

 

Yeah dude is not like you have to dodge whenever the commander gives the order.
Dodging isn't about avoiding CC (stab does this) or blocking dmg (aegis does this).
It's about a quick change of direction ; fake push ; corridor crossing ; etc.

Sorry do you dodge when your commander tells you to? Do you know 90% of the time a comm does that is to avoid future incoming damage that could be avoided by just walking? Problem is most people won't do that and won't even dodge, resulting on death.

Pointless.

[Aeolus.3615]

1 hour ago, Telgum.6071 said:

Sorry do you dodge when your commander tells you to? Do you know 90% of the time a comm does that is to avoid future incoming damage that could be avoided by just walking? Problem is most people won't do that and won't even dodge, resulting on death.

Pointless.

 

When the commander says dodge we dodge :=) 

U guys never played that game while kids?

Wich is interesting cause Vindicator can leap with damage or end with a healing that m8 heal those who dodged to early or to soon .

 

The legend seams pretty solid to hybrid gameplay i would use stats that have damage and  raw healing powerm when used with jalis have a 3rd and strong healing skill whats not to like?

Edited September 20, 2021 by Aeolus.3615

[GrayHawk.7560]

5 hours ago, Parthenos Polias.5683 said:

 

Yeah dude is not like you have to dodge whenever the commander gives the order.
Dodging isn't about avoiding CC (stab does this) or blocking dmg (aegis does this).
It's about a quick change of direction ; fake push ; corridor crossing ; etc.

If you waste your stab, aegis or invul on those moves, then they're gone for the real fight time.

But maybe you are speaking about brainless bot, trying to zerg but without stacking on the tag or following orders on vocal.

If repositioning is the issue, assuming you're running GS, in addition to your dodge you have 3 movement skills, 4 if traited with  Leviathan, only one of which will have an 8 second CD and one with a 10 second CD.  There are also multiple ways to very quickly regen endurance even excluding Sigil of energy and Stamina.  Arguably from a pure repositioning perspective you'll be the best of the bunch since you can actually specifically choose where you want to land (nevermind the other benefits you provide when actually landing).

 

If it's a mitigation thing, again you have more mitigation than those with normal dodges, you can choose where to land to get in or out of danger and you can even land on the rest of your team and provide healing and barriers to anyone who got caught with damage.  You also have a long active block and one of the aforementioned movement skills has evades and provides defensive boons to allies. 

 

If using the supportive dodge in a group, you'll immediately refund 25 energy of the 50 you need, you can then immediately condi cleanse and heal the group instantly refilling your Stamina to full even without traits or sigils.  That's also excluding the mass stun break and protection you can give while constantly healing the group.

 

Taking all the above into account the single dodge in WvW really isnt or at least shouldn't be an issue.

 

Edited September 20, 2021 by GrayHawk.7560

[RabbitUp.8294]

What we should focus on are the mechanical aspects of the spec. The damage will have to be seen in practice, and even if it's underperforming in pve, that doesn't mean it won't be buffed/changed.

 

15 hours ago, Parthenos Polias.5683 said:

 

Yeah dude is not like you have to dodge whenever the commander gives the order.
Dodging isn't about avoiding CC (stab does this) or blocking dmg (aegis does this).
It's about a quick change of direction ; fake push ; corridor crossing ; etc.

If you waste your stab, aegis or invul on those moves, then they're gone for the real fight time.

But maybe you are speaking about brainless bot, trying to zerg but without stacking on the tag or following orders on vocal.

 

If you pick the 50 endurance dodge, you are fine. You will be able to dodge as often as everyone else, more often if you count all the endurance management tools. You can even double dodge with F2, even though from what we've seen, vindicator's dodge lasts longer and covers more distance by default, so double dodging isn't needed.

[Nephalem.8921]

21 hours ago, RabbitUp.8294 said:

That's not how it works. You can't compare skills when you don't know how much power he had on.

Different skills scale differently with power. You can't say that the elite will always do 50% more damage than gs2. If it has a large coefficient like CMC said, then the gap will increase for large amounts of power.

 

Damage done = (Weapon strength) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient)/(target's Armor)

Of course you can compare skills. Weapon strength and power are fixed. Only coefficients differ. Why cant you directly read relative values from that? If weapon strength and power are fixed and only coefficients change that means that a 20% higher number means 20% higher coefficient.

If you increase power by 10% both values will increase by 10% and relative value stays the same. Black magic. Did you mean absolute values?

 

[fran.8157]

when the beta starts ? not date the hour ?

[Scoobaniec.9561]

Tldr vindi is garbage as expected. Not suprised even a bit

[Justine.6351]

28 minutes ago, Scoobaniec.9561 said:

Tldr vindi is garbage as expected. Not suprised even a bit

rofl yeah. death from above trait interaction with mounts says everything. And besides, who thought it was legit to make rev's dodge cost 150 endurance. Daredevil is laughing at us. Idk what spear of archemorous is even supposed to do tbh. You cant chase with it because by the time it actually does cast the runaway person has already moved like 3000 units rofl. Anyone with 2 brain cells will never get hit by it.

[Kidel.2057]

Hope devs see this. Please give us a skill toggle to prevent flipover and freeze the skill loadout. You can make so that Alliance Tactics only gives endurance and put this new skill on F3. 

 

I know you've never changed something like that after a beta, but please consider it this time. Legendary Alliance is bad right now. 

[Adah.8371]

Do you guys know what would be the second set of weapons for the Vindicator, after the GS?

 

I was wondering if you would use dual swords or the hammer (to keep a distance option).

 

Thanks :)

[Chaos.7614]

2 hours ago, Adah.8371 said:

Do you guys know what would be the second set of weapons for the Vindicator, after the GS?

 

I was wondering if you would use dual swords or the hammer (to keep a distance option).

 

Thanks 🙂

What mode? It's going to be situational regardless - wait until tomorrow and even until release to see what the damage numbers are and if they do any tweaks for CC.

[Jthug.9506]

4 hours ago, Adah.8371 said:

Do you guys know what would be the second set of weapons for the Vindicator, after the GS?

 

I was wondering if you would use dual swords or the hammer (to keep a distance option).

 

Thanks 🙂

I’m planning on bringing 2 builds for wvw depending on the situation, hammer/gs and ss/gs

[Adah.8371]

Oh sorry I was thinking of PVE (Fractals and raids).

Thanks guys.