The Catalyst (new Ele e-spec) is the specialization that rangers needed.

[enkeny.6937]

11 hours ago, Lazze.9870 said:

 

And how is that fun in any way? And how does it interact with a pet that can hardly hit moving targets?

It worked in GW1 because combat was much more stationairy.

Fun? I thought we talk about rangers 😄 
They give some "buff" for the pet next successful attack

1) well in ~30 sec usually even our pets make 1 hit 
2) we have ranged pets too
3) maybe we got an update for pet AI, and they will move while using skills (ok, I know we won't)
4) shadowstep the pets

I liked the gw1 beastmaster skills and rangers with pets. 

Long ago there were people longed for support ranger, they've got druid
Many people wanted petless ranger, they've got soulbeat
now some people want... hammer for ranger, or pet orientated specc. we will get one of them, maybe

[Ehecatl.9172]

17 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Guessing it will be well focused, with pet mechanic being infusing your weapon with it or something. 

 

I'm not sure what else they really can do with the pet at this point as we have two specs that use it as companion (core / druid) and one that can 'absorb' it (soulbeast).  Given that this spec is going to almost certainly be melee / support oriented, they have to ditch the pet somehow.

 

I guess that's the most aggravating thing about this wait is seeing what they do with the pet, as that will literally make or break the spec.  

 

If they are going nostalgia factor (like they admitted to with the Bladesworn and Dragon Trigger) then I think bunny thumper is likely.

 

If they go this route I would imagine it working best with two active pets and no pet swap. Maybe pet swap gets replaced with a combo burst between the pets and ranger or something.

 

Then just remove the pet's health bar and have them get injured when the ranger gets injured. Restrict the pets to staying within 300ish range of the ranger at all times and have them set to only attack the target the ranger is currently hammering.

 

Core ranger would have pet swap and the long range pet leash making it better for long range skirmishing builds while the Bunny Thumper, because their pets can't die but are stuck as your side, would be the better choice for jumping into the thick of a fight with their two pets providing high sustained damage to anyone within their shorter pet leash.

 

The hammer would have a lot of knock down potential to keep enemies pinned inside their pet range for high damage.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

4 hours ago, Ehecatl.9172 said:

 

If they are going nostalgia factor (like they admitted to with the Bladesworn and Dragon Trigger) then I think bunny thumper is likely.

 

If they go this route I would imagine it working best with two active pets and no pet swap. Maybe pet swap gets replaced with a combo burst between the pets and ranger or something.

 

Then just remove the pet's health bar and have them get injured when the ranger gets injured. Restrict the pets to staying within 300ish range of the ranger at all times and have them set to only attack the target the ranger is currently hammering.

 

Core ranger would have pet swap and the long range pet leash making it better for long range skirmishing builds while the Bunny Thumper, because their pets can't die but are stuck as your side, would be the better choice for jumping into the thick of a fight with their two pets providing high sustained damage to anyone within their shorter pet leash.

 

The hammer would have a lot of knock down potential to keep enemies pinned inside their pet range for high damage.

 

From a WvW perspective...

 

I just hope no more active pets, or no one will use this spec no matter how good hammer is.  

 

Additionally, locking pets to 300 range would be very bad all around because you are gimping the capabilities of them now for little return.  Three pets off the top of my head use gap closer abilities: smokeskale, electric wyvern, and rock gazelle--these pets would have a portion of their skills drastically diminished being locked at 300 range.  

 

Not only that, but I don't see how you do pet F2 skills with both out, and if you allow two F2s that's going to get nerfed pretty quick because you can chain CC pretty easily (or CC and escape if using smokeskale).  

 

Finally, you are now also dealing with double atrocious AI.  Having two pets trying to hit something and path around is a nightmare to think about when pet swap is used so often to reset the pets position to the ranger.  Even locked at 300 range they are going to get stuck on all kinds of terrain.

 

In short, soulbeast set the standard in that we need an option to lose the pet.  We can jump in and out of pet use like soulbeast does and even be locked to one pet, but there needs to be times when you don't have to  worry about it.  If this is not the case then no one will move on from soulbeast.

[anduriell.6280]

11 hours ago, latlat.4516 said:

I must say that as a WvW player, ranger finally getting boon strip/denial wouldn't displease me

Yes something like that would be very welcome. Also i'd like to apologize for my engrish in the other post, i am amazed anybody could make tails or heads from it. 

However my point is with the new "mechanics additions" to the this three new specs,  ranger (and the other 2 medium new specs) would need something at the same level or simply not to be able to compete. And i am not saying the new specs shown need to be changed but ranger would need something unique. 

Warrior gets massive DPS increase, more projectile hate, teleports and an increased mobility, Catalyst got a lot of everything at melee and range, Vindicator is Daredevil 1.5 with that mobility and damage while evading, harbinger has the potential to become a holo 2.0 , once Anet fixes all the shortcomings willbender will play like a thief in heavy armor with plenty access to deffensive boons. Virtuoso has the potential to become a Soulbeast 2.0 with more ranged AoE once Anet balances the damage. 

So unless the new ranger (and thief and engie) specs gets something really unique it would not even compete in the same tier. 

 

Edited September 20, 2021 by anduriell.6280

[Crackmonster.2790]

It's ironic because if hammer is going to be some sort of wvw group focused CC option, it will be very hard to make pets useful at the same time as they'll just die.

Somewhere in there it's probably a lot of people who won't get what they are hoping for, but then it's always impossible to please everybody.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Crackmonster.2790

[anduriell.6280]

3 hours ago, Crackmonster.2790 said:

It's ironic because if hammer is going to be some sort of wvw group focused CC option, it will be very hard to make pets useful at the same time as they'll just die.

Somewhere in there it's probably a lot of people who won't get what they are hoping for, but then it's always impossible to please everybody.

Pets do not work in any group combat, it does not matter how much Anet try to fine tune it. It would totally blow my mind if they came up with an idea which would work in grand scale combat that does not remove  the pets or make them invulnerable (like in pve) . 

 

That will not happen because anet has explicitly said ranger will always keep the pet mechanic. 

[Loules.8601]

2 hours ago, anduriell.6280 said:

Pets do not work in any group combat, it does not matter how much Anet try to fine tune it. It would totally blow my mind if they came up with an idea which would work in grand scale combat that does not remove  the pets or make them invulnerable (like in pve) . 

 

That will not happen because anet has explicitly said ranger will always keep the pet mechanic. 

I hope to see even one pet-spec. Just one - because there is no real working pet-specs (Ranger, Necro, Guardian) in the game 😞

[Lazze.9870]

21 hours ago, enkeny.6937 said:

Long ago there were people longed for support ranger, they've got druid
Many people wanted petless ranger, they've got soulbeat

 

We got druid, which currently only functions as a support in one gamemode, pve, and that is largely because of spirits.
We got soulbeast which people in favor of a pet spec really want to drive home is "petless", when it's not. It retains the core functionality of the pet mechanic minus pet swap in combat. A true petless ranger wouldn't have the pet mechanic at all. Soulbeast only gave us a taste of the potential.

Yeah, you liked beastmasters in GW1. Because it worked. It barely works in GW2. Combat isn't stationairy and the players aren't hindered by terrain the same way pets are. Give it all the shadowsteps you want, it will still be fumbling behind the target when fighting on Kyhlo in PvP, while revs or guards easily can port onto the point in the tower and make an immediate impact.

Ranger needs more than anything an elite spec able to perform in team fights in PvP and large scale WvW fights. A pet spec is on the complete opposite side of that.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[Lazze.9870]

5 hours ago, Loules.8601 said:

I hope to see even one pet-spec. Just one - because there is no real working pet-specs (Ranger, Necro, Guardian) in the game 😞

 

You can easily make functioning core ranger "pet" builds. But it's limited by the same things a "pet elite spec" would be: the game's AI, flow of combat and terrain.

Necro minion masters works very well in pvp. Or any casual pve content.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[Loules.8601]

Just now, Lazze.9870 said:

 

You can easily make functioning core ranger "pet" builds. But it's limited by the same things a "pet elite spec" would be: the game's AI, flow of combat and terrain.

Minion masters works very well in pvp. Or any casual pve content.

I’m talking about full-pet e-spec, not just utilities. But yep, AI still here… maybe in future… 😄

[Ehecatl.9172]

23 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

From a WvW perspective...

 

I just hope no more active pets, or no one will use this spec no matter how good hammer is.  

 

In short, soulbeast set the standard in that we need an option to lose the pet.  We can jump in and out of pet use like soulbeast does and even be locked to one pet, but there needs to be times when you don't have to  worry about it.  If this is not the case then no one will move on from soulbeast.

 

Your concerns can all be smoothed out with balancing and tweaking the numbers. My suggestion wasn't meant to be a fully balanced elite spec out the gate, it was just some simple ideas on how a pet focused elite spec could operate without being automatically incapable of dealing with group fights.

 

That said I just disagree that an elite spec that doesn't ditch the pet can't be viable. There are a lot of ways they could go about it if they really wanted to.

 

Now if you were arguing rangers should have the option to perma stow their pet for when having a pet is an active detriment that much I'd agree with in a heart beat. We should be allowed to choose whether having the pet out is to our benefit or not rather than the game deciding that for us.

 

That shouldn't be tied to elite specs alone though, it should just be an option even core ranger gets.

Edited September 21, 2021 by Ehecatl.9172

[anduriell.6280]

1 hour ago, Ehecatl.9172 said:

 

Your concerns can all be smoothed out with balancing and tweaking the numbers. My suggestion wasn't meant to be a fully balanced elite spec out the gate, it was just some simple ideas on how a pet focused elite spec could operate without being automatically incapable of dealing with group fights.

 

That said I just disagree that an elite spec that doesn't ditch the pet can't be viable. There are a lot of ways they could go about it if they really wanted to.

 

Now if you were arguing rangers should have the option to perma stow their pet for when having a pet is an active detriment that much I'd agree with in a heart beat. We should be allowed to choose whether having the pet out is to our benefit or not rather than the game deciding that for us.

 

That shouldn't be tied to elite specs alone though, it should just be an option even core ranger gets.

No matter of how much number tweaking or balancing the devs try to do. pets will never funtion effectively in any pvp setting. 

As simple proof of my argument: What did anet decided to do in pve about the failing pet mechanic? That's right, the pet becomes  invulnerable. If the devs could not came up with an idea about how "balance and tweak numbers" agaisnt the pve AI , PvP is definitely out of the picture.

If anybody wants to play beastmaster there is the traitline and core ranger for that. Core could even get an F5 as a ground target to reposition the pet to that location. 

And if that doesnt get your fancy with the changes pointed out below the core class could get that beastmaster vibe:

 

Edited September 21, 2021 by anduriell.6280
smol corrections

[Ehecatl.9172]

19 minutes ago, anduriell.6280 said:

No matter of how much number tweaking or balancing the devs try to do. pets will never funtion in any pvp setting. 

 

 

 

I fundamentally reject this notion and I think it is a harmful mindset for ranger mains to fall into.  We should not under any circumstance just resign ourselves to the idea that our core mechanic cannot function in the PVP format of the game our class was literally created to play in.

 

There have been so many quality suggestions on this forum over the years that would address the pet's issues. It is absurd to say that it is impossible for the pet to work well as a mechanic just because Anet has been lazy about putting the work in to fix it.

 

There's also a traitline in core ranger for nature magic. That doesn't mean Druid was redundant or didn't offer a new style of play. Beastmaster on its own is not equivalent to an elite spec designed with the flavor of being a master of beasts in mind just like Nature Magic on its own is not equivalent to being a nature based spellcaster like druid.

 

If anyone doesn't want a pet focused elite spec that is fine. We're all entitled to our opinions. I am just getting tired of reading how my preference is somehow mechanically impossible and can only be bad.

[anduriell.6280]

35 minutes ago, Ehecatl.9172 said:

 

I fundamentally reject this notion and I think it is a harmful mindset for ranger mains to fall into.  We should not under any circumstance just resign ourselves to the idea that our core mechanic cannot function in the PVP format of the game our class was literally created to play in.

It is what it is, you may accept it or not, the facts are there for all to see.

Quote

There's also a traitline in core ranger for nature magic. That doesn't mean Druid was redundant or didn't offer a new style of play. Beastmaster on its own is not equivalent to an elite spec designed with the flavor of being a master of beasts in mind just like Nature Magic on its own is not equivalent to being a nature based spellcaster like druid.

Funny you bring to light the failure of a specialization only used in a dead subset of the  pve content. In any case  current design of the druid has nothing to with the nature and more with the cosmos and astral forces. Your argument just failed.

Quote

If anyone doesn't want a pet focused elite spec that is fine. We're all entitled to our opinions. I am just getting tired of reading how my preference is somehow mechanically impossible and can only be bad.

Are you implying the only way ranger should be able to have useful pets mechanic is to buy an additional expansion and use an specific specialization?  What happens to the rest of builds and specializations? Do they keep the crappy version?

So stop asking to dedicate a whole specialization for something that should already part of the core class. You are asking the same if the Elementalist would need to use a new specialization to have any usable attunements or Guard to be able to share boons.

 

Edited September 21, 2021 by anduriell.6280

[Lazze.9870]

4 hours ago, Ehecatl.9172 said:

That said I just disagree that an elite spec that doesn't ditch the pet can't be viable. There are a lot of ways they could go about it if they really wanted to

 

Not in WvW.

I hear this "lot of ways" nonsense all the time without seeing any real suggestions to how that doesn't involve some dumb, broken kitten.

Edited September 21, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[nerva.7940]

yeah, this is exactly how I envisioned Wisps, or a spirit rework. 

[Ehecatl.9172]

13 hours ago, anduriell.6280 said:

It is what it is, you may accept it or not, the facts are there for all to see.

 

 

No. Just because Anet has been lazy doesn't mean they will always be lazy. Especially with a new elite spec that is a part of their marketing for the latest expansion.

 

Quote

Funny you bring to light the failure of a specialization only used in a dead subset of the  pve content. In any case  current design of the druid has nothing to with the nature and more with the cosmos and astral forces. Your argument just failed.

 

Again, just because Anet has been lazy with ranger doesn't mean we need to just accept they always will be. By the logic you present here it doesn't matter what our elite spec will be because Anet will always give us something niche that barely works.

 

Quote

 

Are you implying the only way ranger should be able to have useful pets mechanic is to buy an additional expansion and use an specific specialization?  What happens to the rest of builds and specializations? Do they keep the crappy version?

So stop asking to dedicate a whole specialization for something that should already part of the core class. You are asking the same if the Elementalist would need to use a new specialization to have any usable attunements or Guard to be able to share boons.

 

 

Of course not. I am saying that an elite spec that changes the pet mechanic into something with more oomph would provide a playstyle that core ranger doesn't currently have. You're just trying to shove words in my mouth at this point and I don't appreciate it.

 

There's no reason Anet can't provide a lord of beasts style elite spec that alters the pet system in such a way that it becomes functional as a melee brawler AND touch up the core pet system with some of the ideas they used to make the elite spec better. In fact if the elite spec is reliant on our pets it gives Anet an even greater incentive to at least go back and fix a lot of the pet related bugs and give balance tweaks to the less used pets which would help core ranger too.

 

An elite spec that removes the pet entirely though? That gives Anet more excuses to ignore the core ranger's problems forever.

[Lazze.9870]

15 hours ago, Ehecatl.9172 said:

In fact if the elite spec is reliant on our pets it gives Anet an even greater incentive to at least go back and fix a lot of the pet related bugs and give balance tweaks to the less used pets which would help core ranger too.

If bugs that are detrimental to the performance of pets (like the problem with quickness and crit chance) or if core pets that literally play no other role than being a different flavor for casual pve aren't incentive enough to make changes, then there is little reason to expect any meaningful tweaks for a new elite spec.

They didn't give core an F5 which could have boosted the pets a lot, they instead nerfed pet stats on druid. Like, this is mentality Anet has when it comes to ranger. In ranger's current state, a "beastmaster" spec would be complete trash or broken because of all the crutches they would add to make it work. Even then it would be a complete waste for WvW where ranger needs something more than anywhere else.

Fortifying Bond locking you into Nature Magic is another flaw of a spec like that. Because you want to share your boons with the pets to make them effective, the alternative is a pet that can't be fully buffed and also a lack of defensive boons to help it out. Beastmatery is probably a must as well. So your trait choices are limited as well.

Edited September 22, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[Ehecatl.9172]

10 hours ago, Lazze.9870 said:

If bugs that are detrimental to the performance of pets (like the problem with quickness and crit chance) or if core pets that literally play no other role than being a different flavor for casual pve aren't incentive enough to make changes, then there is little reason to expect any meaningful tweaks for a new elite spec.

They didn't give core an F5 which could have boosted the pets a lot, they instead nerfed pet stats on druid. Like, this is mentality Anet has when it comes to ranger. In ranger's current state, a "beastmaster" spec would be complete trash or broken because of all the crutches they would add to make it work. Even then it would be a complete waste for WvW where ranger needs something more than anywhere else.

Fortifying Bond locking you into Nature Magic is another flaw of a spec like that. Because you want to share your boons with the pets to make them effective, the alternative is a pet that can't be fully buffed and also a lack of defensive boons to help it out. Beastmatery is probably a must as well. So your trait choices are limited as well.

 

Trust me, I am extremely aware of how bad Anet has been with handling the ranger class. I was a very active poster on this forum once and was a big contributor to the Druid beta thread. Loads of ideas were given and almost none of them were taken. Loads of ideas of how to fix core rangers issues have been included, including by Anduriell, and none have been taken.

 

But just because something has been a certain way doesn't mean it can never change. Just because pets have been a neglected mechanic doesn't mean an elite spec focusing on them has to also be neglected. If Anet wanted to make a pet focused spec that worked in group fights they COULD. They literally control the game's coding. There's nothing outside engine limitations they can't do.

 

Which is why I push back so hard at the idea that a pet spec can NEVER be viable. Never say never. You can't judge something that doesn't even exist yet.

 

At any rate, arguing about it is kind of pointless. We'll get what we get in a month.

 

But I think we can all agree that being made to wait until last again is some bull and doesn't inspire confidence.

[Kilrik.6320]

On 9/17/2021 at 4:20 PM, anduriell.6280 said:

I am really afraid about the current situation thou. The three medium specs have been singled out for the last and that’s is giving me the impression those are in the most immature condition.

 

 

I sadly agree.  This is ominous and similar to druid and the indecisive astral farce scenario they went through with so many different variations on gaining astral force.  Then smokescale and bristleback which actually hit targets were nerfed within weeks.  For a while, they even changed out the most useful f2 in the game (imo) on smokescale from smoke field to the smoke assault.  Ranger was the side thought class in HoT.  Which begs the question, will it be the same for this expansion?

Concerning the other thought....

A beastmaster was an outstanding choice for gw1, where as it was said before, it could work since targets were more stationary.  This game, the Ai seems similar to gw1, but players are constantly moving and shadowstepping.  Since day one, I've seen countless videos where pets can't land a hit on a moving target that's moving at in-combat speed with no buffs, because of animation cast delays.  The newer expansion pets are slightly better and they tried speeding up animations for all, but the pet mechanics are unreliable to this day for consistent damage and with their damage calculated in the overall ranger damage it's a net negative.  So I would vote a BIG NOOOO on a beastmaster spec for gw2, esp if they intended to make an actual aoe wvw group useful ranger spec.  Take the pet away completely for that. It would be cool to see a wvw group asking for rangers instead of constantly kittening on them in team chat. Roaming is fine, but group play might be fun without having to change professions.

[Lazze.9870]

12 hours ago, Ehecatl.9172 said:

If Anet wanted to make a pet focused spec that worked in group fights they COULD.

 

Except they CAN'T. Not in large scale WvW fights. Because of reasons I already told you. The pet needs stability access to even function at all, and that forces ranger into Nature Magic which is good for little else than personal sustain and boon sharing with your pet. Meaning you're wasting an entire traitline for selfish reasons that are not damage related. There is no room for that if you want to break into the WvW meta.

There is no way one knows the ins and outs of this class, the WvW meta in general and Anet's history with the pet mechanic, and believe that a pet spec will be viable and workable in any way. That's delusional.

Edited September 23, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[Puck.3697]

after.. it getting into beta.

Catalyst is defintly not the Specc Ranger needs xDDD

[Acyk.9671]

deleted

Edited April 3, 2022 by Acyk.9671

[kappa.2036]

2 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

after.. it getting into beta.

Catalyst is defintly not the Specc Ranger needs xDDD

Performance wise, yes, catalyst definitely needs more work! I just wrote that title because conceptually his role would have been great for the ranger (fields, aoes, boons, etc) 😉

[Ehecatl.9172]

13 hours ago, Lazze.9870 said:

 

Except they CAN'T. Not in large scale WvW fights. Because of reasons I already told you.

 

They can if they put the effort into it. Why do you assume Anet can't give the pet stability through the new elite spec traitline so they don't need nature magic? Why do you assume Anet can't add more ways to share boons attached to that traitline? I mean heck, that'd be pretty basic for any spec meant to use the pet heavily.

 

Anet CAN give rangers pretty much any tool they want to give us. Just like they can turn mesmer clones into daggers or change guardian virtues into movement skills. They can add or remove all kinds of functionality involving the pet if they wanted to.

 

Quote

There is no way one knows the ins and outs of this class, the WvW meta in general and Anet's history with the pet mechanic, and believe that a pet spec will be viable and workable in any way. That's delusional.

 

Ah, so we've reached the point where you're just going to insult me and cast doubt on my competence, then?

Edited September 23, 2021 by Ehecatl.9172