No Weapon Swap and no Normal Burst Skills is kinda alot of restrictions huh?

[Valik Shin.9027]

3 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Weapon swaps and burst skills both... what is supposed to be the trade off for the gunsaber then?

What's the trade off of photon forge or firebrand books?  

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

2 minutes ago, Valik Shin.9027 said:

What's the trade off of photon forge or firebrand books?  

Allegedly for Holo/Scrapper it is losing the Elite toolkit skill, and for Firebrand/Dragonhunter it was losing instant cast virtues. But I call BS considering what Berserker, and now apparently Bladesworn have to give up.

[Valik Shin.9027]

32 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Allegedly for Holo/Scrapper it is losing the Elite toolkit skill, and for Firebrand/Dragonhunter it was losing instant cast virtues. But I call BS considering what Berserker, and now apparently Bladesworn have to give up.

Yeah it's BS. Engi trades 1 skill for 5.  Guard trades 3 skills for 12. Warrior trades 7 skills for 6

[Allarius.5670]

I agree with the sentiment that not all specs have been sufficiently updated to properly meet tradeoff design requirements.

Don't quote me, but I think part of the Holo tradeoff is locking the player into Holoforge and disabling kits for that initial period, trading free kit access to create a pseudo weapon swap. As Engi is theoretically balanced around free kit access, temporal denial may have seemed to be an adequate trade off to the developers, alongside the F5 toolbelt skill. Certainly the F5 and overheating alone is insufficient tradeoff. In fact, as overheating shouldn't be happening without a player mistake or intent, I think the overheat mechanic (in combination with the time lock) is meant as a tradeoff for the increased effectiveness of Holoforge skills compared to most weapon skills rather than justifying Holoforge altogether. Overheating is a cap to how long you can use the skills. Trading the elite slot, rather than the corresponding toolbelt skill, would feel more appropriate as it directly contends with a potential kit slot (or other great elite option).

I cannot fathom a tradeoff for Firebrand. Maybe they thought tome cooldowns, time spent casting tome skills rather than weapon skills, and the page mechanic was sufficient tradeoff? Clearly it isn't. Maybe, and it's a big maybe, if they also lost a weaponset it would be closer to balancing out. Weapon skills for tome skills, but are the cooldowns and page mechanic sufficient to justify three different sets of tome skills? Obviously this is about design bloat and not current numbers/meta.

As for Bladesworn, and most of the other new specs, at least design decisions are approaching some consistency. Weaponset for Gunblade weaponset, adrenaline for flow, weapon specific bursts for Dragon Trigger burst options plus some additional quality of life skills to help execute those bursts. Technically, the third burst option and skills on Dragon Trigger 4 and 5 are icing on the cake to help with execution and making bursts only accessible in Gunblade + lack of weaponset choice more palatable.

There is still a lot of design bloat in previous specs ANET needs to tackle. Unfortunately their failure to do so paints new specs and their design goals poorly.

[oscuro.9720]

9 hours ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

Hah, I feel like the discussion around no weapon swap went something like this:

 

ANet A:

"Guys, we need a new espec for warrior, but how do we get away from the fact that any build that doesn't take Discipline is kitten?"

 

ANet B:

"No weapon swap means no need for Discipline! WIN!"

Gu saber cool down is affected by weaponswap CDs, and has a 10s swap at default, so discipline is still necessary.

[oscuro.9720]

47 minutes ago, Valik Shin.9027 said:

Yeah it's BS. Engi trades 1 skill for 5.  Guard trades 3 skills for 12. Warrior trades 7 skills for 6

Warrior is trading 7 skills for 10. Gunsaber has 5, Dragon trigger has 5. Weapon swap as 5, plus 2 burst skills. Still an unfavorable ratio compared to the other two, but it is adding a net positive number of skills. However, I’m not too concerned about it. 

[Aaron.1294]

@oscuro.9720let's not forget every gunsaber skill is an ammo skill

[Aaron.1294]

I literally dunno why ppl are still not happy with the new espec... We are getting much better wep than every other wep, much better class mechanic, more skills than other especs combined...

Also let's not forget that gunsaber blocking a weapon swap and having brand new burst  can affect other especs and core warr much less in the future than zerker or spb

[oscuro.9720]

11 minutes ago, Aaron.1294 said:

@oscuro.9720let's not forget every gunsaber skill is an ammo skill

Yes, but the charge CD is quite hefty. It’s going to be interesting to see how that plays in competitive modes, especially with no CD reduction trait available afaik.

[Mesket.5728]

2 minutes ago, Aaron.1294 said:

I literally dunno why ppl are still not happy with the new espec... We are getting much better wep than every other wep, much better class mechanic, more skills than other especs combined...

Also let's not forget that gunsaber blocking a weapon swap and having brand new burst  can affect other especs and core warr much less in the future than zerker or spb

 

because we don't have a new weapon, we got a kit with a weapon swap cooldown, and the pistol OH which is a joke in every aspect. We also didn't get a class mechanic, we lost our which is burst in exchange of that stupid pose putting your sword away in mid combat.

[Sobx.1758]

3 minutes ago, Aaron.1294 said:

I literally dunno why ppl are still not happy with the new espec... We are getting much better wep than every other wep, much better class mechanic, more skills than other especs combined...

Also let's not forget that gunsaber blocking a weapon swap and having brand new burst  can affect other especs and core warr much less in the future than zerker or spb

Because when some people said they want something new for warrior and are ready to drop burst skills, what they really meant is that they want espec to be a direct upgrade of regular warrior. It's different so for those people it's automatically bad. 🤷‍♂️

Ah and the fact that a skill can be charged for UP TO 5 seconds apparently means that it NEEDS to be charged to 5 on every single use, so it's unplayable 😉

[Sobx.1758]

6 minutes ago, Mesket.5728 said:

because we don't have a new weapon, we got a kit with a weapon swap cooldown, and the pistol OH which is a joke in every aspect. We also didn't get a class mechanic, we lost our which is burst in exchange of that stupid pose putting your sword away in mid combat.

Warrior basically got 2 new weapons -OH pistol and gunsaber. OH pistol doesn't seem to be a joke, but we'll see how playable it is in reality. It's a bursty OH that can help with sustain if traited for it.

And what do you mean "we didn't get a class mechanic"? 😆 I guess holoforge isn't a mechanic either? And neither are burst skills? And neither is necro shroud?

Edited September 20, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Valik Shin.9027]

1 hour ago, Aaron.1294 said:

@oscuro.9720let's not forget every gunsaber skill is an ammo skill

Yeah so are most rifle skills and I don't see that getting much play 

[Valik Shin.9027]

49 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Warrior basically got 2 new weapons -OH pistol and gunsaber. OH pistol doesn't seem to be a joke, but we'll see how playable it is in reality. It's a bursty OH that can help with sustain if traited for it.

And what do you mean "we didn't get a class mechanic"? 😆 I guess holoforge isn't a mechanic either? And neither are burst skills? And neither is necro shroud?

A weapon that is gonna compete with axe in pve, shield in pvp, and warlord in wvw. I might win out in pve but I wouldn't hold my breath. As for the gunblade, I'd rather have my other weapon available 

[Sobx.1758]

7 minutes ago, Valik Shin.9027 said:

A weapon that is gonna compete with axe in pve, shield in pvp, and warlord in wvw. I might win out in pve but I wouldn't hold my breath. As for the gunblade, I'd rather have my other weapon available 

I'm glad you've already checked the numbers and every possible combination on each build/rotation, but still, why would it need to "compete with it"? And "compete with axe in pve" how exactly? By having more dmg? Then axe is... axed. By having same dmg? Then it's irrelvant. Why would you want a weapon to fill the exact same area another weapon already strictly occupies? What's the logic with that expectation? That you just want axe or shield buffed?

If you're not interested in gunsaber, then you don't want to play the espec. It's fine, but it's also an extremely personal preference that by no means "makes or breaks" an espec just because "you want another weapon".

Edited September 20, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Valik Shin.9027]

1 minute ago, Sobx.1758 said:

I'm glad you've already checked the numbers and every possible combination on each build/rotation, but still, why would it need to "compete with it"? And "compete with axe in pve" how exactly? By having more dmg? Then axe is... axed. By having same dmg? Then it's irrelvant. Why would you want a weapon to fill the same area another weapon already strictly occupies? What's the logic with that expaction? That you want axe or shield buffed?

If you're not interested in gunblade, then you don't want to play a spec. It's fine, but it's also an extremely personal preference that by no means "makes or breaks" an espec just because "you want another weapon".

Are you talking about open world? Just messing around? It's not hard to see what is meta on a class and it's axe in pve, shield in pvp, and warhorn in wvw. No body is arguing about open world viability because almost anything works there. I run rifle sometimes in open world for christ sakes

[Sobx.1758]

Just now, Valik Shin.9027 said:

Are you talking about open world? Just messing around? It's not hard to see what is meta on a class and it's axe in pve, shield in pvp, and warhorn in wvw. No body is arguing about open world viability because almost anything works there. I run rifle sometimes in open world for christ sakes

I'm talking about everything you were talking about. Not sure how you've concluded I'm talking about OW, you can apply what I said about axe to any other weapon in the same manner, hopefully I don't need to spell it out for each of them separately. It's literally the same logic between the "new and old weapon contesting the exact same area".

[Valik Shin.9027]

 

2 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

I'm talking about everything you were talking about. Not sure how you've concluded I'm talking about OW, you can apply what I said about axe to any other weapon in the same manner, hopefully I don't need to spell it out for each of them separately. It's literally the same logic between the "new and old weapon contesting the exact same area".

Idk how you could argue it's not gonna compete with those weapons. That's the meta. It has to be better than those weapons in the meta build (weather it's the same build or a new one) or its not gonna get used. That's just how it works and I don't like pistol's odds

[Sobx.1758]

27 minutes ago, Valik Shin.9027 said:

 

Idk how you could argue it's not gonna compete with those weapons. That's the meta. It has to be better than those weapons in the meta build (weather it's the same build or a new one) or its not gonna get used. That's just how it works and I don't like pistol's odds

And that's exactly what I said, but you ignored the question from the previous post. You complain about the weapon not competing with "this weapon here" or "that weapon there". Lets take the first example YOU initially came up with (and that's also what I did in my last post, to which for some reason you responded that I must be talking about OW) : And "compete with axe in pve" how exactly? By having more dps?

The only way a new OH weapon can push out OH axe in pve is by having more dps. That's it. Just more power dmg over time, which is just buffed axe. This is why new weapons shouldn't exactly contest exactly the same areas, but try finding their own niches -even if they won't be "meta", but just open up SOME build/s for SOME players with SOME playstyle. This really isn't that complicated, but somehow I'm not sure you understand what I'm saying in my last few posts.

 

And btw the above is also why I wrote what I wrote in my initial answer about the pistol: OH pistol doesn't seem to be a joke, but we'll see how playable it is in reality. It's a bursty OH that can help with sustain if traited for it.  -I'm well aware it doesn't contest the exact same areas axe or shield occupy. That's the point and for me that's the logical way to introduce weapons to the classes. Alternatives, not "more of the same" or "direct upgrades/downgrades". Shield is filled with utility, this is why it's used in pvp. Axe has deeps, which is obviously why it's used in pve. Pistol has burst and can be traited into sustain, which is the combination of both areas axe and shield occupy and very clerarly never intended to be a direct upgrade for any of those (unless it somehow outdpses axe, but I don't think it should 😄 ).

Edited September 20, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Aaron.1294]

@Valik Shin.9027hey did u know pistol might be a better option than shield? cuz shield guess what - ain't that great.

Also - axe has to CAST it's abilities for full duration to get full dmg- pistol 5 can dmg enemies w/o actually casting for the full skill duration which is why it can compete with axe espec because the whole spec is centered around gunblade.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Aaron.1294

[Aaron.1294]

some warr mains are literally "more damage - VIABLE" - 0 theorycrafting. That's pretty sad ngl

[Puck.3697]

11 hours ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

Hah, I feel like the discussion around no weapon swap went something like this:

 

ANet A:

"Guys, we need a new espec for warrior, but how do we get away from the fact that any build that doesn't take Discipline is kitten?"

 

ANet B:

"No weapon swap means no need for Discipline! WIN!"

Warrior does still have Weapon swap. its Simply one of the weapon sets are Fixed to the gunsaber... Gunsaber is a Functioning Secondary Weapon effectively u can swap between it and ur weapons freely the same and disc is going to provide its Pros for that weapon swap in itself.

Now if u ask me. it actually doesnt escape Disc.

The speccs balanced around using its new Elite to create large burst damage, which means u need to be able to swap between weapons quickly while in combat to pull that burst off.. so i dunno if it'll really remove the need for Disc even at this point.imho, i think the larger problem is a Loss of Normal burst skills and if fundamentally it'll hold the Sustain required. to make use of some of this stuff

 

13 minutes ago, Aaron.1294 said:

some warr mains are literally "more damage - VIABLE" - 0 theorycrafting. That's pretty sad ngl

if ur a PvE player its one of the fundamental points of viability realistically if running a DPS Role that is. so i can see why some do think this way..

SPVP Wise, imma guess this would be the moment the ysay thats why we have options.. not that our other options were that great to begin with.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Valik Shin.9027]

23 minutes ago, Aaron.1294 said:

@Valik Shin.9027hey did u know pistol might be a better option than shield? cuz shield guess what - ain't that great.

Also - axe has to CAST it's abilities for full duration to get full dmg- pistol 5 can dmg enemies w/o actually casting for the full skill duration which is why it can compete with axe espec because the whole spec is centered around gunblade.

shield stance and shield bash are 2 of the best skills on warrior for pvp

[Valik Shin.9027]

honestly im just done with this thread. so many here are just living in their own world with this crazy kitten they are talking about. niche builds? really? who cares  there are so many niche builds out there now. If bladesworn doesn't fine a spot in a meta build it's a failure. Period.

[Obtena.7952]

 

46 minutes ago, Valik Shin.9027 said:

honestly im just done with this thread. so many here are just living in their own world with this crazy kitten they are talking about. niche builds? really? who cares  there are so many niche builds out there now. If bladesworn doesn't fine a spot in a meta build it's a failure. Period.

It's unreasonable to think any spec is a failure because it doesn't find a meta build spot, especially considering the excess of especs that exist compared to meta spots. Definitely, 'being meta' is not a quality metric for an espec. That's not why they exist. 

One thing that is clear is that based on how Anet communicates to us, they DO care about having purpose on their class designs ... and OH pistol is clearly a mobility-conscious design. If that doesn't fit how you want to play because you don't value mobility, then don't use it .. you have lots of other choices specific to what CAN be valued. But, don't pretend this is players 'living in their own world' ... that's definitely not the case here. 

 

Frankly, the thread is a little sensational ... we DO have weapon swap, it's just one of those weapons is FIXED to gunsaber. It's true, there isn't a single normal burst. Instead we get three other bursts and a few other skills on top of that. 

Edited September 20, 2021 by Obtena.7952