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Catalyst is OP

Paradoxoglanis.1904

By Paradoxoglanis.1904
in Elementalist

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Keymaster.7362

Keymaster.7362

Posted
Posted (edited)

Yes, please buff staff !!

 

But it's way too early to say catalyst is op.

 

Wait for the beta next weak, wait for all the raid experts to calculate the max dps, and finally wait that Anet nerf this spec in the ground, befor it gets finally released with EoD.

Edited by Keymaster.7362
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fuzzyp.6295

fuzzyp.6295

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I think it would need to be better defined as what 'combo' means for Cataylst. Like, does this specifically mean when you use Blast/Leap finisher? Or will you be getting Shocking Aura when you use Whirl/Projectile finishers too? I don't think there are many Air Attunement finishers to be honest so comobing for Shocking Aura would probably require something like Arcane Wave to be kinda continuous. Also, the trait that allows for this Aura Spam does have a 10 second ICD.

Edited by fuzzyp.6295
corrected the skill name
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SlitheSlivier.1908

SlitheSlivier.1908

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No catalyst will still be underpowered in wvw and pvp for many many reasons.

-Any enemies with half a brain won't fight you inside jade sphere, completely negating the entire profession mechanic. 

- none of the utilities are stun breaks. In fact i think we will end up just having to use all core utilities. 

- elite is another 90sec cd

-combos only proc Auras every ten sec (per attunement)

- energy, hammer 3, elemental empowerment all requires a long build up

-we still have the lowest hp and armor

- but much for defense. Weaver had more access to vigor i believe, and much much more barrier. There are almost no blocks or evades in hammer.

- the utilities have 2 dependencies (attunement AND must be in jade sphere) to get the full benefit. 

- hammer only has 1 finisher per attunement. Other weapons don't really have much more. 

Edited by SlitheSlivier.1908
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SlitheSlivier.1908

SlitheSlivier.1908

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3 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

It seems on par with other class in the game for "ele" it is very strong but anet has gone out of there way to keep ele week.

I think weaver may still generally be better for competetive modes and catalyst only really shining in pve.

 

It's not that they went out of their way to keep it weak but that they just don't put much effort into it to give it great synergies or strong mechanics. 

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Jski.6180

Jski.6180

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1 minute ago, SlitheSlivier.1908 said:

I think weaver may still generally be better for competetive modes and catalyst only really shining in pve.

 

It's not that they went out of their way to keep it weak but that they just don't put much effort into it to give it great synergies or strong mechanics. 

Weaver weakness is projectiles dule skills and the fact that it no longer plays like an ele. Cat still lets you have non projectiles and it can still play like a normal ele with higher dmg mods then say core ele over all. Weaver for sure is better dmg over all but cat is better dmg then core ele and tempest with out giving up ele game play. I think the F5 is not going to be as importan in wvw but it will be very strong in pve and spvp for dmg builds. For support builds i think your going to look for more burst boon support and ranged bombs support.

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SlitheSlivier.1908

SlitheSlivier.1908

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2 minutes ago, FrownyClown.8402 said:

All the skills are worse versions of existing utilities with conditional benefits. This spec seemed like it only had pve in mind.

This. 

 

I did miss that invigorating air has a stun break but the skill as a whole just seems bad. Also endurance regen caps at 100% so you will be negating any vigor (tho in a better way) with it.

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Drakarya.1283

Drakarya.1283

Posted
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7 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

Weaver weakness is projectiles dule skills and the fact that it no longer plays like an ele. Cat still lets you have non projectiles and it can still play like a normal ele with higher dmg mods then say core ele over all. Weaver for sure is better dmg over all but cat is better dmg then core ele and tempest with out giving up ele game play. I think the F5 is not going to be as importan in wvw but it will be very strong in pve and spvp for dmg builds. For support builds i think your going to look for more burst boon support and ranged bombs support.

I  love how they started catalyst with F5 having 0.1% modifier on competetive game modes because the points of those fields are strictly to be combofields, I personally don't understand why it's a problem if it deals dmg too. Ele already underperforms and unwanted in almost every aspects in the game. I hope catalyst changes that, but I somehow can't see that happening.

Edited by Drakarya.1283
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Jski.6180

Jski.6180

Posted
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11 minutes ago, Drakarya.1283 said:

I  love how they started catalyst with F5 having 0.1% modifier on competetive game modes because the points of those fields are strictly to be combofields, I personally don't understand why it's a problem if it deals dmg too. Ele already underperforms and unwanted in almost every aspects in the game. I hope catalyst changes that, but I somehow can't see that happening.

For sure ele underperforms at all points of the game that why i am saying cat is on part with other classes balance not op. Its the other eles classes that need a buff like tempest and core (weaver should be ok for pure dmg i think.)

 

Random though: Could we say make Overload Earth and Dust Storm into poison fields? Is there a reason why Cat gets a fake earth field yet temepst who has 2 earth like fields gets nothing? Could we say make Water overload have a water or frost field? That what being on balanced with the other classes vs not.

Edited by Jski.6180
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Zhaid Zhem.6508

Zhaid Zhem.6508

Posted
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One issue we expect from catalyst to solve all issues; DPS, support, etc.
I think it is designed to be a support spec, how good it will be ? For now i'm a bit puzzled.  But even with the powercreep for the release don't expect hammer, with mid-range on Fire and air, to be a dps weapon. At best it will have good cleave / aoe.  Weaver is the dps spec, and the dude said they didn't wanted hammer to fill the same slot than dagger/dagger ...

Plus outside a block somewhere in earth, there is no sustain ...

Edited by Zhaid Zhem.6508
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Stallic.2397

Stallic.2397

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8 hours ago, SlitheSlivier.1908 said:

No catalyst will still be underpowered in wvw and pvp for many many reasons.

-Any enemies with half a brain won't fight you inside jade sphere, completely negating the entire profession mechanic. 

- none of the utilities are stun breaks. In fact i think we will end up just having to use all core utilities. 

- elite is another 90sec cd

-combos only proc Auras every ten sec (per attunement)

- energy, hammer 3, elemental empowerment all requires a long build up

-we still have the lowest hp and armor

- but much for defense. Weaver had more access to vigor i believe, and much much more barrier. There are almost no blocks or evades in hammer.

- the utilities have 2 dependencies (attunement AND must be in jade sphere) to get the full benefit. 

- hammer only has 1 finisher per attunement. Other weapons don't really have much more. 

I wish I had that Last jedi meme "everything you said is wrong" lol. I don't want to jump on the op bandwagon. But the traits are insane on paper. 

 

Whether you're fighting a Catalyst melee or range, you'll have to deal with shocking and magnetic Aura every ten seconds. Plus whatever weapon skills the ele has. Huge plus for Catalyst

 

Air utility is a stun break. Plus, the idea of using certain utilities in certain elements isn't new. In fact, that's been baseline since core ele (arcane & glyphs). So the F5 mechanic wouldn't be hard to adopt for a main ele. 

 

Will catalyst have the lowest armor & hp? You can spec tank or hybrid or dps and then get a 20% stat bonus. Spam the disables & immob. Not hard to do on Ele. I'm interested in the flexibility of this elite

 

Weaver will still be a good choice. No doubt. So many evades, so much barrier. Things catalyst doesn't have. But I'm really liking the Core Ele 2.0 (catalyst). 

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BlackBeard.2873

BlackBeard.2873

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9 hours ago, FrownyClown.8402 said:

All the skills are worse versions of existing utilities with conditional benefits. This spec seemed like it only had pve in mind.

For PvP/WvW - the only one that interests me is the 3s block. If it stays on a 30s CD, that is new ground and quite useful for ele (especially if you CAN build for dps and keep doing instant-casts like in fresh air, even though the rest of the traits actually seem like a poor fit for FA). The air one is a stunbreak on 30s with useful endurance regen -I can see it potentially competing with the stunbreak glyph and air signet in some builds, but probably not.

 

10 hours ago, fuzzyp.6295 said:

I think it would need to be better defined as what 'combo' means for Cataylst. Like, does this specifically mean when you use Blast/Leap finisher? Or will you be getting Shocking Aura when you use Whirl/Projectile finishers too? I don't think there are many Air Attunement finishers to be honest so comobing for Shocking Aura would probably require something like Arcane Wave to be kinda continuous. Also, the trait that allows for this Aura Spam does have a 10 second ICD.

FYI, you can start a skill and then attunement-swap mid-cast. This used to be really important on big skills for core d/d ele to get that fury to help crit, but can be used here to change what field/attunement you finish in. The only blast that CAN'T do this is evasive arcana dodge-roll. That makes this not much a problem if you want to make a build spamming shocking auras.

However, the CD's shown (10s for each aura) will be absolutely longer in pvp, probably destroying interest in the spec. That's not inside information, but I can already imagine the crying about people having to fight an ele and needing to wait for proper windows to go HAM. If you CAN get like 40-50% uptime on shocking and magnetic aura, that immediately makes this a viable pvp support spec. If you can't, then you are just left being a selfish bruiser trying maximize your stat-gain.

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fuzzyp.6295

fuzzyp.6295

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2 hours ago, BlackBeard.2873 said:

For PvP/WvW - the only one that interests me is the 3s block. If it stays on a 30s CD, that is new ground and quite useful for ele (especially if you CAN build for dps and keep doing instant-casts like in fresh air, even though the rest of the traits actually seem like a poor fit for FA). The air one is a stunbreak on 30s with useful endurance regen -I can see it potentially competing with the stunbreak glyph and air signet in some builds, but probably not.

 

FYI, you can start a skill and then attunement-swap mid-cast. This used to be really important on big skills for core d/d ele to get that fury to help crit, but can be used here to change what field/attunement you finish in. The only blast that CAN'T do this is evasive arcana dodge-roll. That makes this not much a problem if you want to make a build spamming shocking auras.

However, the CD's shown (10s for each aura) will be absolutely longer in pvp, probably destroying interest in the spec. That's not inside information, but I can already imagine the crying about people having to fight an ele and needing to wait for proper windows to go HAM. If you CAN get like 40-50% uptime on shocking and magnetic aura, that immediately makes this a viable pvp support spec. If you can't, then you are just left being a selfish bruiser trying maximize your stat-gain.

Yeah I'm aware of that, I was more referring to the OP's fear of Shocking Aura being a present threat. I know you can start a blast in fire and swap to air to get the air effect, but then most Air skills don't have finishers on them, so between that fact and the 10 ICD it meant the fear of high uptime on Shocking Aura was unfounded. If you wanted to chain Shocking Auras together on cool down, you'd need to remain in Air for 10 seconds to use another finisher like Arcane Wave or attune out to another attunement and wait out the cool down before you do it again.


The only weapon where that might be an issue is main hand dagger which uses shocking aura. That might be the only weapon with considerable uptime on Shocking Aura I think. You can get a Shocking Aura from blasting into Air Field (4s) then get another Shocking Aura from the skill (4s) then use a third combo finisher to apply another Shocking Aura after 2 more seconds before swapping out of Air.

If we compare that to... Fresh Air Tempest... they can get Shocking Auras up pretty quickly, one every 9 seconds (Charge Time + Overload Cast). If you consider the 4 second duration, that means its on a 5 second cool down? With Shocking Aura on the dagger to help out as well? Well I suppose thats if they're playing perfectly, its probably closer to a shocking aura every 10-12 seconds on a 6-8 second cool down.

I can't really see the ICD going much higher than 15s even in competitive play unless they intend to increase the duration of the effects you get when you apply a aura. Otherwise, the whole mechanic of the spec is useless in competitive.

Edited by fuzzyp.6295
fixed some phrasing
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Zunki.3916

Zunki.3916

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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, SlitheSlivier.1908 said:

- hammer only has 1 finisher per attunement. Other weapons don't really have much more. 

There is no other weapon comp that even has one per element. It's a kittening joke 🤔 Imagine how useable those are with such traits...

Edited by Zunki.3916
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BlackBeard.2873

BlackBeard.2873

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20 hours ago, fuzzyp.6295 said:

Yeah I'm aware of that, I was more referring to the OP's fear of Shocking Aura being a present threat. I know you can start a blast in fire and swap to air to get the air effect, but then most Air skills don't have finishers on them, so between that fact and the 10 ICD it meant the fear of high uptime on Shocking Aura was unfounded. If you wanted to chain Shocking Auras together on cool down, you'd need to remain in Air for 10 seconds to use another finisher like Arcane Wave or attune out to another attunement and wait out the cool down before you do it again.


The only weapon where that might be an issue is main hand dagger which uses shocking aura. That might be the only weapon with considerable uptime on Shocking Aura I think. You can get a Shocking Aura from blasting into Air Field (4s) then get another Shocking Aura from the skill (4s) then use a third combo finisher to apply another Shocking Aura after 2 more seconds before swapping out of Air.

If we compare that to... Fresh Air Tempest... they can get Shocking Auras up pretty quickly, one every 9 seconds (Charge Time + Overload Cast). If you consider the 4 second duration, that means its on a 5 second cool down? With Shocking Aura on the dagger to help out as well? Well I suppose thats if they're playing perfectly, its probably closer to a shocking aura every 10-12 seconds on a 6-8 second cool down.

I can't really see the ICD going much higher than 15s even in competitive play unless they intend to increase the duration of the effects you get when you apply a aura. Otherwise, the whole mechanic of the spec is useless in competitive.

I mean if you go d/d you can get a fire field (burning speed and ring of fire) and then blast/swap or leap/swap from earth to air or water to air every rotation, giving you shocking aura every 10s without being a single element ele. Realistically, in pvp, you get pressured out of air long before you can last 5s charge and 4s overload. Catalyst also doesn't require you to go with a squishy FA spec, whereas a tanky d/d spec could get this uptime on top of magnetic auras and prot (earth or arcana), and share it with water.

 

If it does work this way, they will either nerf core ele or nuke the trait into 1 aura per 20s, or most likely, make it only give useless fire auras.

 

Don't worry, ele will never be OP.

 

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