"On my Mark" + Tactical Reload

[SoulSin.5682]

Are we gonna talk how Warriors can instantly cast 18 seconds of revealed on thieves?

[itspomf.9523]

I mean, sure, but don't forget that Mesmers and Scrappers can also party-stealth (even more effectively).

 

And just think of the whinging we'd hear if someone tried something like that in PvP or WvW (despite the stealth debuffs in the latter).  A whole squad of guys, completely invisible.  However would they defend a keep against it or 10 simultaneous attacks they simply couldn't see.

 

It'd be a massacre.  Carnage everywhere.  Or maybe a well-timed dodge.

[ASP.8093]

OK, sure, let's talk about it.

One of three things will happen as a result:

1. I am playing Deadeye: I will cast Shadow Meld so I can keep using the M7 initiative refresh cycle, we will have a normal fight.

2. I am not playing Deadeye: I will play more aggro with my Blinds and interrupts, we will fight, if I am playing Deadly Arts over Shadow Arts I will think to myself, "Deadly Arts is good."

3. I am not playing Deadeye and they brought a lot of friends: I will run away because they brought a lot of friends and have correctly identified the main tool I would be using to avoid getting dogpiled by all their friends at once, and they will post a forum thread about how unfair it is that they didn't get a free kill for all their effort.

[saerni.2584]

26 minutes ago, ASP.8093 said:

OK, sure, let's talk about it.

One of three things will happen as a result:

1. I am playing Deadeye: I will cast Shadow Meld so I can keep using the M7 initiative refresh cycle, we will have a normal fight.

2. I am not playing Deadeye: I will play more aggro with my Blinds and interrupts, we will fight, if I am playing Deadly Arts over Shadow Arts I will think to myself, "Deadly Arts is good."

3. I am not playing Deadeye and they brought a lot of friends: I will run away because they brought a lot of friends and have correctly identified the main tool I would be using to avoid getting dogpiled by all their friends at once, and they will post a forum thread about how unfair it is that they didn't get a free kill for all their effort.

Number 3 is gold. 
 

I'm all about the dog piles and salty complaints about how running is cowardly 1v7.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

Yeeaaahhh... Okaayyyy

 

Let's not talk about triple shadow shot, top GM in trickery, binding shadows, pistol 5, smokescreen. 

 

You totally have a hard time vs a warrior yup sure.. 

 

Also, shadow arts goes brrrrr

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

7 minutes ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Yeeaaahhh... Okaayyyy

 

Let's not talk about triple shadow shot, top GM in trickery, binding shadows, pistol 5, smokescreen. 

 

You totally have a hard time vs a warrior yup sure.. 

 

Also, shadow arts goes brrrrr

Top grandmaster in trickery...... 

Your suggestion for dealing with 18 seconds of reveal is to get 3 ini on weapon swap? o.O

[Grand Marshal.4098]

34 minutes ago, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

Top grandmaster in trickery...... 

Your suggestion for dealing with 18 seconds of reveal is to get 3 ini on weapon swap? o.O

Nah wait not trickery. Shadow arts. Blind on stealth. What can I say, I only play Crit strikes, trickery thieves with sword pistol. 

[DeceiverX.8361]

1 hour ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Yeeaaahhh... Okaayyyy

 

Let's not talk about triple shadow shot, top GM in trickery, binding shadows, pistol 5, smokescreen. 

 

You totally have a hard time vs a warrior yup sure.. 

 

Also, shadow arts goes brrrrr

 

Referencing your below clarification referencing Cloaked in Shadow, the blind does not apply if attempting to gain stealth while under the Revealed debuff.  It is only applied after the Stealth effect is granted successfully.  P5 applies only once every two seconds (easy to mid-CC-animation cleanse, I do it on my reaper all the time, and there's no reason to stand in smokescreen if the thief is revealed for 6s regardless).

Is this interaction really problematic?  Eh - not really - thief can just reset it and very few warriors are running OMM.  But a thief is stupid to try and overcome this by directly attacking back.

 

 

[Grand Marshal.4098]

28 minutes ago, DeceiverX.8361 said:

 

Referencing your below clarification referencing Cloaked in Shadow, the blind does not apply if attempting to gain stealth while under the Revealed debuff.  It is only applied after the Stealth effect is granted successfully.  P5 applies only once every two seconds (easy to mid-CC-animation cleanse, I do it on my reaper all the time, and there's no reason to stand in smokescreen if the thief is revealed for 6s regardless).

Is this interaction really problematic?  Eh - not really - thief can just reset it and very few warriors are running OMM.  But a thief is stupid to try and overcome this by directly attacking back.

 

 

Well yeah, I don't care with the blind application intervals or stealthing as much I care for thieves being able to counter warriors. Like ok, revealed. So what? There are traits you can take to help with that, for example dmg mitigation while revealed, the more you are revealed, the better for you. 

 

Main point here is: let warrior have its interactions. BsW has this synergy with shouts but nothing else. SpB has like, Magebane + On my Mark + SBS (for the hardcore folks). I don't see any issues here as I see with Lush Forest promoting spammy gameplay, instead of say, giving less value to a CD decrease to any ammo charge being used. 

 

I wasn't in a particularly good build last night (was ducking around some HammBow builds with beta char and Shouts on core, Trooper rune included). Needless to say, despite running normal On My Mark and then in conjuction with Tactical Reload, it is impossible to catch up to a thief and counter all their blind (although the shout build was pretty capable with cover condis due to the absurd amount of cleansing which is non-existent in solo warr builds). 

 

Ultimately, this is a post which addresses no issue and OP should whine about more important stuff like Shiro Core Rev one bursting them or Sic Em Soulbeasts sniping them. Instead of warrior revealing them and never getting close to them.

 

Try to fight Shadow Arts Daredevils with any Bladesworn build lel. 

Edited September 26, 2021 by Grand Marshal.4098

[SlitheSlivier.1908]

Yea "on my mark" is ridiculous. Shorten the duration and double the CD.

 

Otherwise thieves need skills that would read "your attacks are unblockable for 15sec and your enemies can only heal from their #5 skill". Cuz that's be a similar amount of removing defenses from other classes as that skill does for thieves and mesmers. 

 

While we are at it, make it so sentries' and towers' Mark doesn't cause reveal in wvw cuz its stupid that thieves and mesmers can only play on 2/3 of the map. 

[ASP.8093]

4 hours ago, SlitheSlivier.1908 said:

Yea "on my mark" is ridiculous. Shorten the duration and double the CD.

 

Otherwise thieves need skills that would read "your attacks are unblockable for 15sec and your enemies can only heal from their #5 skill". Cuz that's be a similar amount of removing defenses from other classes as that skill does for thieves and mesmers. 

 

While we are at it, make it so sentries' and towers' Mark doesn't cause reveal in wvw cuz its stupid that thieves and mesmers can only play on 2/3 of the map. 

Oh, kitten. Just play Shadow Meld if you're this married to using stealth as your only defense.

Edited October 10, 2021 by ASP.8093

[SlitheSlivier.1908]

1 hour ago, ASP.8093 said:

Oh, kitten. Just play Shadow Meld if you're this married to using stealth as your only defense.

I mean 1 skill that nullifies an entire line of defenses and requires an elite to work around (tho that is short lived in itself) and only 1 class that uses stealth has access to it.  The idea of the skill isn't bad but the stats are def OP.

An equivalent is having a utility that gives 15sec of unblockable on a 30s cd.

Edited October 10, 2021 by SlitheSlivier.1908

[ASP.8093]

5 minutes ago, SlitheSlivier.1908 said:

I mean 1 skill that nullifies an entire line of defenses and requires an elite to work around (tho that is short lived in itself) and only 1 class that uses stealth has access to it.  The idea of the skill isn't bad but the stats are def OP.

An equivalent is having a utility that gives 15sec of unblockable on a 30s cd.

I main thief.

You need to think about how the game actually works instead of doing this Chicken-Little stuff.

1. Stealth isn't your primary defense. That's actually movement. Stealth helps by obfuscating your movement. (Also, offensively, by activating more powerful attacks.)

2. Nobody can stack as much blocks/evades/invulns as Thief has access to stealth (because it's not the same kind of mechanic). Even when Marked by some annoying guard you can get 30-40% stealth uptime.

3. One more time: the Thief spec that's most reliant on sneak attacks for damage output and resource management gives you a way to cleanse Revealed on demand. You laugh this off as "oh, you have to burn an entire elite skill for that!" but it's by far the best elite for that build in all circumstances — because most elite skills aren't *better* than utility-slot skills, they're just specialized skills that anet doesn't want you using together.

4. The windmill you're tilting at is a Bladesworn build that dedicates most of its skill slots (including the elite) to making the Gunsaber viable by going all-in on Lush Forest. It's quite likely an actually-viable version of that build won't even run "On My Mark" because of how absolutely worthless it is in other matchups. A Sic 'Em Soulbeast or a Magebane Spellbreaker have more ability to apply Revealed — and capitalize on it with follow-up damage+CC — without totally crippling themselves.

[felix.2386]

On 9/25/2021 at 7:38 PM, SoulSin.5682 said:

Are we gonna talk how Warriors can instantly cast 18 seconds of revealed on thieves?

try play on-my-mark on warrior outside of support war, i can kill it in less then 30 seconds on my thief.

Edited October 10, 2021 by felix.2386

[Overworld.9613]

I am terrible at staying alive on my Thief, but Rangers, Revenants (I am very bad at dodging the tracking sword teleport move they have) and other Thieves (that stealth approach is powerful) are pretty much the only thing that kills me when roaming. No one else can keep up if I decide to flee because the victor is clear pretty early on and I still have a lot (like a lot a lot) of movement options to escape the fight.

Has OP tried not walking into unfavourable machups? Or roaming as a duo? Or having a build that uses evade instead of stealth as the "defensive" mechanic?

As much as I like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole, I am also an advocate of hard counters being in class based games.

Does OP also know there's a WvW trap that causes revealed? And that everyone can use it. But people kinda just don't cause it's easier to just get killed by a stealthed blob and call in the cavalry once dead.

[Chips.7968]

14 hours ago, ASP.8093 said:

I main thief.

2. Nobody can stack as much blocks/evades/invulns as Thief has access to stealth (because it's not the same kind of mechanic). Even when Marked by some annoying guard you can get 30-40% stealth uptime.

Stealth is neither a block nor evade though, is it... so a weird attempted parallel.  

Also, marked by guard you will get 3s of stealth before revealed debuff applied - so not quite sure how you can get 30-40% stealth uptime, or 30-40% stealth uptime while still having the initiative to utilise any other skills in between stealth init spending.

Or was this specific to one thief build? Really does help if people are a bit clearer in that regard as it makes discussions harder to track when one talks about one specific build, another is talking a second which is entirely different etc.

Edited October 11, 2021 by Chips.7968

[SlitheSlivier.1908]

4 hours ago, Chips.7968 said:

Stealth is neither a block nor evade though, is it... so a weird attempted parallel.  

Also, marked by guard you will get 3s of stealth before revealed debuff applied - so not quite sure how you can get 30-40% stealth uptime, or 30-40% stealth uptime while still having the initiative to utilise any other skills in between stealth init spending.

Or was this specific to one thief build? Really does help if people are a bit clearer in that regard as it makes discussions harder to track when one talks about one specific build, another is talking a second which is entirely different etc.

I wasnt even going to bother responding bc he is being condescending and not rational. None of those arguments he made hold up.

When stealthing is your method of avoiding attacks, healing, condi removal, "safe zone" to use longer cast time skills to recover, and reposition, it does mean it's your primary defense. Even if it's not, it is highly important for survivability.

Also there isn't "one build" that relies on it. D/p, p/p, rifle, and some staff builds rely on stealth to a high degree. Also some really good mesmer builds do, and even a couple ranger builds rely on it a bit.

Also i think he is saying that rifle is most reliant on sneak attacks, but that's not true. Deaths Judgement will rarely hit competent opponents due to how telegraphed it is and you rely more on sustained damage from spotters shot.  D/p relies on stealth attacks, same as p/d and i believe p/p (tho i haven't played the latter), but those are all typically DD, not DE and thus does not have access to that elite (which also has a much longer CD than On My Mark, so it's irrelevant anyway). Stealth-staff also obviously relies on vaulting from stealth too... just for another example. 

Also, as you said, you can't compare them in that way, only in that they are defenses. Esp since you can often attack while blocking/evading, unlike stealth where you might get 1 attack. For instance I can have a more favorable damage trade playing ele using arcane shield than anything in stealth because i can make multiple attacks while taking 0 damage. Also don't forget You can also take damage in stealth and many skills already track you while you are stealthed. This is why stacking blocks for 15sec is not possible in this game and itd be broken... (though guardians and eles to a degree have tons of projectile  reflects that will mess up a rifler's day...)

And lastly... no idea why bladesworn is being brought up. Apart from many of us (myself included, so idk why the accusations) not trying it, it is still in beta and likely to drastically change before its released half-a-year from now

 

The problem with On My Mark isn't inherently that it removes stealth. Its a combination of several factors: How extremely easy it is to use, how long the revealed lasts, having multiple charges, low Cooldown, it's even more bonkers when combined with Magebane, and it's literally just 1 skill that negates the defenses of many builds for 50% of the fight, even more with magebane. Some classes should be able to counter others for sure, but by a culmination of several skills and abilities; not just 1.

 

An example of that last sentence: It is generally considered that FA scepter weavers counter Deadeye Riflers. This is because it has such high spike damage from range by using a succession of multiple skills and traits quickly in addition to having multiple CC's and projectile hate.  This is a good example of how 1 build can counter another because it's a culmination of many skills and traits that allow it to do so, and in turn have its own inherent weaknesses. It does Not have the ability to swap a single utility to then be able to hard-counter a half dozen other builds while still maintaining its advantage over the former. 

Edited October 11, 2021 by SlitheSlivier.1908

[ASP.8093]

5 minutes ago, SlitheSlivier.1908 said:

Also i think he is saying that rifle is most reliant on sneak attacks, but that's not true.

No. Deadeye — all weapons — is most reliant on sneak attacks: because resetting Malice is how you refuel your Initiative, and you've got fewer trait-based multipliers than most Daredevil or Core Thief builds but huge extra damage on the Rifle, Dagger, and Spear Sneak Attacks. Which is, conveniently, the spec that can cleanse Reveal.

 

14 minutes ago, SlitheSlivier.1908 said:

Also, as you said, you can't compare them in that way, only in that they are defenses.

Then why do you want 15 seconds Unblockable on a 30 second CD, lol.

 

8 minutes ago, SlitheSlivier.1908 said:

And lastly... no idea why bladesworn is being brought up.

It's literally the topic of the thread. Look at the title.

[SlitheSlivier.1908]

49 minutes ago, ASP.8093 said:

No. Deadeye — all weapons — is most reliant on sneak attacks: because resetting Malice is how you refuel your Initiative, and you've got fewer trait-based multipliers than most Daredevil or Core Thief builds but huge extra damage on the Rifle, Dagger, and Spear Sneak Attacks. Which is, conveniently, the spec that can cleanse Reveal.

 

Then why do you want 15 seconds Unblockable on a 30 second CD, lol.

 

It's literally the topic of the thread. Look at the title.

 I can't figure out how to split up quotes on my phone so excuse the cruddy formatting, i apologize.

 

Firstly it sounds like, due to omitting comments on, that you see the point in making and dont necessarily disagree with them despite acknowledgement...headway is maybe being made? but I'll continue to comment as such below. 

 

1) all weapons except rifle really,  again since that doesn't usually hit. But generally ppl don't play DE and not rifle because DD is better. But yes, those are a lot of potential builds where that can be used... but seldom are. And again, with the very short cd of "OMM!", shadow meld is somewhat irrelevant except for the first 20sec maybe of the fight. It's being very much overpowered by a single skill BEFORE Magebane or Tactical Reload are even used,  leaving you super vulnerable (and then add 15stacks on top :-p. Puns). That's a problem

2) i dont want 15sec block. That point was made to show how ludicrous it is... and pretty sure that was obvious. I take it you agree then. 

3) yea...my baddd...i read that and brain switched to something else. Whoooops

Edited October 11, 2021 by SlitheSlivier.1908

[ArthurDent.9538]

Ok warrior wastes a utility slot for a skill that helps only against a few builds and still has minimal chance to kill competent thieves because of super overloaded kiting kit.

[Cynz.9437]

Welcome to p2w business mode: we add mechanic (reveal) that counters certain class mechanic (stealth -> stealth attacks/survival traits) then we add a new xpac with new espec that counters that mechanic (shadow meld) then we add another espec to add even more access to the first mechanic (yes, i know it is confusing and yes this is how flippin power creep works). Rinse and repeat. All for the sake of sales.

 

In the end it will be like ASP said: people will cry rivers on forums that thief ran away and don't bother to think why thief chose to do so (due to lack of survival tools and stupid amount of counters, especially in wvw, which simply doesn't allow the class to stay in fights for long time like it is for other classes).

Honestly, they should just change thief class description: hello, you are designated free loot bag, do not dare to run away (it will make zerglings mad), lie down and let other farm you. Thanks.

Edited October 13, 2021 by Cynz.9437

[ASP.8093]

7 hours ago, Cynz.9437 said:

Welcome to p2w business mode: we add mechanic (reveal) that counters certain class mechanic (stealth -> stealth attacks/survival traits) then we add a new xpac with new espec that counters that mechanic (shadow meld) then we add another espec to add even more access to the first mechanic (yes, i know it is confusing and yes this is how flippin power creep works). Rinse and repeat. All for the sake of sales.

 

In the end it will be like ASP said: people will cry rivers on forums that thief ran away and don't bother to think why thief chose to do so (due to lack of survival tools and stupid amount of counters, especially in wvw, which simply doesn't allow the class to stay in fights for long time like it is for other classes).

Honestly, they should just change thief class description: hello, you are designated free loot bag, do not dare to run away (it will make zerglings mad), lie down and let other farm you. Thanks.

That's not what I said at all, lol.

Go back and reread it.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

On 10/10/2021 at 10:14 PM, felix.2386 said:

try play on-my-mark on warrior outside of support war, i can kill it in less then 30 seconds on my thief.

Which is meh, because before Feb 2020 you could kill a warrior you noticeably outskill within 10 seconds.

[Caedmon.6798]

13 hours ago, Cynz.9437 said:

Welcome to p2w business mode: we add mechanic (reveal) that counters certain class mechanic (stealth -> stealth attacks/survival traits) then we add a new xpac with new espec that counters that mechanic (shadow meld) then we add another espec to add even more access to the first mechanic (yes, i know it is confusing and yes this is how flippin power creep works). Rinse and repeat. All for the sake of sales.

 

In the end it will be like ASP said: people will cry rivers on forums that thief ran away and don't bother to think why thief chose to do so (due to lack of survival tools and stupid amount of counters, especially in wvw, which simply doesn't allow the class to stay in fights for long time like it is for other classes).

Honestly, they should just change thief class description: hello, you are designated free loot bag, do not dare to run away (it will make zerglings mad), lie down and let other farm you. Thanks.

Well look at WvW where you have 2 traps designed to give thieves a 30sec reveal,blobs dont give a kitten. Add sentrys that add a 30 sec reveal. Add tower radars that add Forever reveal. Add Keep flips that add a 5 minute reveal. Add all the ingame reveals on specs available already,but yet you Still have people crying about stealth. But telling them to L2p is a No-no. Its all so anti thief,but people still want more nerfs to them cus they get outplayed anyway.

[Graeaw.6329]

Nerf stealth access/uptime, fine. In return, give us Shadow Dance where you aren't invisible but have access to stealth bonuses and stealth attacks.