Catalyst rework?

[AshenOwl.2485]

Anet sponsored this tweet, referencing a Catalyst rework. Given how vocal people have been with their dissatisfaction with this spec, this tweet seems to imply Catalyst will look a bit different when next we try it out (during the 4th beta, most likely). Fingers crossed they make some substantial changes.

 

[Kodama.6453]

Wouldn't read too much into this, it could be just a joke as well.

I doubt that they are doing very fundamental changes to specs at this point. Most likely they will tweak numbers and fix bugs and such, cleaning up the specs. But entire reworks seem a bit much to ask for.

Edited September 30, 2021 by Kodama.6453

[Fueki.4753]

I doubt Arenanet will spend too much effort on reworking an Elementalist elite specialization.

Maybe it gets a few minor tweaks here and there, but I doubt there'll be more than that.

[Jski.6180]

Anet would need to update the F5 in some way to be movable or stay on the ele. The hammer would have to have a stronger effect or faster cast time. These can be fixed.

Its the utility that need the full rework they are simply worthless.

[Kodama.6453]

45 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

Anet would need to update the F5 in some way to be movable or stay on the ele. The hammer would have to have a stronger effect or faster cast time. These can be fixed.

Its the utility that need the full rework they are simply worthless.

Wells on necromancer and chronomancer don't follow your character and are still perfectly workable, so I don't quite get why everyone claims that the mechanic has to follow?

[Dadnir.5038]

17 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Wells on necromancer and chronomancer don't follow your character and are still perfectly workable, so I don't quite get why everyone claims that the mechanic has to follow?

Probably because elementalist have already access to many stationary aoe and that an aoe that follow him wouldn't be just another one (I mean, staff is full of them, glyphs have one that change based on your attunment, conjured weapons have stationary fields, off hand weapons have some... etc.). It would also be a better fit for the gameplay of the catalyst.

That said, even with a moving aoe, the catalyst would still lack originality as it just do and focus on what core and tempest already does and focus.

[Zaxx.8125]

I wouldnt mind the F5 summoning a pokemon xD

[Jski.6180]

9 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Wells on necromancer and chronomancer don't follow your character and are still perfectly workable, so I don't quite get why everyone claims that the mechanic has to follow?

Are the F5 skill a well though? All of the classes you said the well have significance effects beyond the "field" cata has a field with 1 boon effect on a very low duration. I would not call them wells unless you would call staff skill wells or tempest overload effects a type of well too?

I think cata f5 is more like a shade or table from rev. Its not a well its a "non hp pet" that you update effects bast off of the ele current atument. Like in the pic!

The F5 is a field and a boon why not let the cata control it that could be a movement effect or to say on the ele it self.

[Kodama.6453]

1 hour ago, Jski.6180 said:

Are the F5 skill a well though? All of the classes you said the well have significance effects beyond the "field" cata has a field with 1 boon effect on a very low duration. I would not call them wells unless you would call staff skill wells or tempest overload effects a type of well too?

I think cata f5 is more like a shade or table from rev. Its not a well its a "non hp pet" that you update effects bast off of the ele current atument. Like in the pic!

The F5 is a field and a boon why not let the cata control it that could be a movement effect or to say on the ele it self.

I heavily disagree with this. Jade sphere functions way more alike to a well than to sand shades or the tablet. Sand shades and tablets don't do anything at all without further input from the player. If the player is not using any skills after placing them down, they just sit there doing literally nothing.

Jade sphere on the other hand still does something: it ticks damage and applies boons in an AoE every second, even if the player does not press any button after using it. It can be adjusted through attunement swaps, but this is not necessary to make it do something on it's own.

Basically the only difference between a well and jade sphere is that jade sphere lacks the tag for rune interactions, but it is still way closer to being a well than being a sand shade.

Additionally, I want to point out that you might undersell it's damage, which you don't even acknowledge as something it does (you just mention it being a combo field and applying boons). A fully charged jade sphere lasts for 15 seconds, ticking with 0.668 power coefficient. This sums up to a total power coefficient of 10.0 over it's full duration, which is quite alot.

Let's compare this damage number to the power coefficients of wells from other classes which have damage as their primary function:

• shredder gyro: 4.8 power coefficient over it's full duration. It just has 20 seconds cooldown, so let's add 50% damage to calculate it's damage based on 30 seconds cooldown (which is roughly what jade sphere has). In this case, it hits for 7.2 power coefficient.
• well of suffering: 6.0 power coefficient, 25 seconds cooldown. Adjusted, we get a total power coefficient of 7.2 once again.
• well of calamity: 4.0 power coefficient, 20 seconds cooldown. Adjusted, deals 6.0 power coefficient.

So even the hardest hitting damage wells from other classes "just" hit for 7.2 power coefficient, against jade sphere's 10.0. That is quite a difference. Even compared with other damage dealing abilities, like laser disk, it still deals more damage in a long fight (laser disk hits for 9.0 with 30 seconds cooldown, even above 50 heat).

Against stationary targets, like several world bosses or raid bosses even, this ability will deal quite alot of damage.

[Infusion.7149]

The jade orb "well" is meant for boon support (it does near 0 damage in PVP/WVW for this reason with 0.01 coefficient , also see the video where CMC says it is for boon support). It has 15s base cooldown so it has the same issue as chrono wells but compounded because the functionality changes with attunement swap. If recalling it were able to refresh cooldown or reposition the field it would help at least for mobile fights and WVW.

The only boon on there worth anything is quickness and you can't even frontload it because of the need for energy buildup first. Might /prot you would be better off running tempest which means resolution (water on jade sphere) isn't all that attractive either.

Manifest sand shade is on 8s charge cooldown in PVE ; well of suffering is not boon support ; well of calamity is not boon support.

Edited October 1, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Kodama.6453]

33 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

The jade orb "well" is meant for boon support (it does near 0 damage in PVP/WVW for this reason with 0.01 coefficient , also see the video where CMC says it is for boon support). It has 15s base cooldown so it has the same issue as chrono wells but compounded because the functionality changes with attunement swap. If recalling it were able to refresh cooldown or reposition the field it would help at least for mobile fights and WVW.

The only boon on there worth anything is quickness and you can't even frontload it because of the need for energy buildup first. Might /prot you would be better off running tempest which means resolution (water on jade sphere) isn't all that attractive either.

Manifest sand shade is on 8s charge cooldown in PVE ; well of suffering is not boon support ; well of calamity is not boon support.

Fair point about PvP/WvW, but I don't think that we should solely consider it boon support in PvE. As shown, the damage of this skill adds up quite some, even outperforming wells which have damage as their primary function, so that is something to consider as well in that environment.

Maybe the damage in PvP/WvW should be buffed. Not too much, obviously, since you can't have a strong damage tick for 15 seconds on an area. The node denial in PvP would be insane. But 0.01 power coefficient seems too harsh, they should let it tick at least some damage.

[Jski.6180]

53 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

I heavily disagree with this. Jade sphere functions way more alike to a well than to sand shades or the tablet. Sand shades and tablets don't do anything at all without further input from the player. If the player is not using any skills after placing them down, they just sit there doing literally nothing.

Jade sphere on the other hand still does something: it ticks damage and applies boons in an AoE every second, even if the player does not press any button after using it. It can be adjusted through attunement swaps, but this is not necessary to make it do something on it's own.

Basically the only difference between a well and jade sphere is that jade sphere lacks the tag for rune interactions, but it is still way closer to being a well than being a sand shade.

Additionally, I want to point out that you might undersell it's damage, which you don't even acknowledge as something it does (you just mention it being a combo field and applying boons). A fully charged jade sphere lasts for 15 seconds, ticking with 0.668 power coefficient. This sums up to a total power coefficient of 10.0 over it's full duration, which is quite alot.

Let's compare this damage number to the power coefficients of wells from other classes which have damage as their primary function:

• shredder gyro: 4.8 power coefficient over it's full duration. It just has 20 seconds cooldown, so let's add 50% damage to calculate it's damage based on 30 seconds cooldown (which is roughly what jade sphere has). In this case, it hits for 7.2 power coefficient.
• well of suffering: 6.0 power coefficient, 25 seconds cooldown. Adjusted, we get a total power coefficient of 7.2 once again.
• well of calamity: 4.0 power coefficient, 20 seconds cooldown. Adjusted, deals 6.0 power coefficient.

So even the hardest hitting damage wells from other classes "just" hit for 7.2 power coefficient, against jade sphere's 10.0. That is quite a difference. Even compared with other damage dealing abilities, like laser disk, it still deals more damage in a long fight (laser disk hits for 9.0 with 30 seconds cooldown, even above 50 heat).

Against stationary targets, like several world bosses or raid bosses even, this ability will deal quite alot of damage.

But it changes base off what atument your in it is a shade or a table but in the way ele plays. It is very much different from a well. If any thing cata is more of an ele pet then the current ele pet elemental because the ele class it self is truly counted to it by being more then just a 2 skill gimick pet (the cast and the skill).

All these wells are not tide to there caster in means of contort them. That what a well is a skill that simply last longer then one hit that dose not charge up till the end of that skill and only some have that end effect. I am sry if you dont think ele atument swaping is not part of ele core effect but that just how the ele plays.

Its out right a waist of time to balance any thing in this game for raids a game type most ppl dont play and where most of the content is not. It was wrong in HoT balancing it was wrong in PoF and its going to be wrong in EoD its a FAILED game type.

[Emberheart.8426]

18 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Fair point about PvP/WvW, but I don't think that we should solely consider it boon support in PvE. As shown, the damage of this skill adds up quite some, even outperforming wells which have damage as their primary function, so that is something to consider as well in that environment.

Maybe the damage in PvP/WvW should be buffed. Not too much, obviously, since you can't have a strong damage tick for 15 seconds on an area. The node denial in PvP would be insane. But 0.01 power coefficient seems too harsh, they should let it tick at least some damage.

The big difference between wells and the sphere is that you only need to stand in a well for 3-5 seconds. Meanwhile you are you expected to stay in the sphere for up to 15 seconds. Massive difference in how stationary you have to be here. 

Let's also not ignore that one is profession mechanic, which also happens to be required for the majority of your elite spec traits to even function properly. There is no real comparison.

[scerevisiae.1972]

16 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

Anet would need to update the F5 in some way to be movable or stay on the ele. The hammer would have to have a stronger effect or faster cast time. These can be fixed.

Its the utility that need the full rework they are simply worthless.

yeah i think this is on the money.

• rework F5 for sure. needs to be a separate field per element (seperate CDs), moveable, or recastable.
  Personally I'd prefer F5 just has a regular 10sec CD, and the field lasts 3-5sec (3sec base, 5sec with traits). remove energy mechanic completely.
• normalise _most_ but not all hammer skills to be 600 range, with a couple of 900-1200 skills so hammer is not useless in WVW.
  Beta hammer was WAY too similar to sword and dagger. Make it unique please.
• utilities were really really bad. Just god-awful, no exaggeration. 
  Rework completely to address the weaknesses of hammer -- mobility, condi clear, field generation, lack of block/evades/reflects. Utilities should actually provide utility, right?

 

At least, those would be the iterable improvements I'd be hoping for, but honestly I'd prefer a version of Catalyst where the utilities each provide a specific element field (call them wells) and the class mechanic is something entirely new. Make the elite grant 1200 range to all ranged skills for 5 sec, something like that.

 

If they don't make big changes after the near-universally negative reception (just look at the poll), then there's something majorly wrong.

Edited October 1, 2021 by scerevisiae.1972

[Kodama.6453]

3 hours ago, scerevisiae.1972 said:

If they don't make big changes after the near-universally negative reception (just look at the poll), then there's something majorly wrong.

The expansion is supposed to drop in february, which leaves 4 months for them to make changes.

Then we have to keep in mind that catalyst is not the only elite spec coming out, there are 8 other elite specs in need of attention.

I doubt that any really major changes like a rework and all the stuff people are asking are going to happen. They will mostly fix bugs and make number adjustments, I guess, but I wouldn't expect any major mechanical changes.

Edited October 1, 2021 by Kodama.6453

[Mini Crinny.6190]

3 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

The expansion is supposed to drop in february, which leaves 4 months for them to make changes.

Then we have to keep in mind that catalyst is not the only elite spec coming out, there are 8 other elite specs in need of attention.

I doubt that any really major changes like a rework and all the stuff people are asking are going to happen. They will mostly fix bugs and make number adjustments, I guess, but I wouldn't expect any major mechanical changes.

Just to add, if the number changes and bug fixes dont fix the problems which it probably won't, you can probably expect some more changes to catalyst sometime after EoD comes out, its a shame but that's how it is

[Infusion.7149]

9 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Fair point about PvP/WvW, but I don't think that we should solely consider it boon support in PvE. As shown, the damage of this skill adds up quite some, even outperforming wells which have damage as their primary function, so that is something to consider as well in that environment.

Maybe the damage in PvP/WvW should be buffed. Not too much, obviously, since you can't have a strong damage tick for 15 seconds on an area. The node denial in PvP would be insane. But 0.01 power coefficient seems too harsh, they should let it tick at least some damage.

They shouldn't buff jade sphere damage. It isn't a strong PVE damage source because it isn't movable. The damage from the jade sphere and the hammer 3 skill which is hitbox reliant should both be moved to the damage traits/hammer for PVE.
I would advise you watch the stream catalyst was unveiled, CMC specifically said that they do not want damage on jade orb. What you're suggesting is contrary the complete design intention, which is a field for auras to come out of (in addition to the paltry boons).

 

Quote

 

58:12

deploy the jade sphere and this is going

58:15

to do this is going to create

58:17

essentially what is a spell area on the

58:19

ground that

58:20

the primary goal here is that's going to

58:22

be see i'm building up might this is a

58:24

fire field if i cast it on an enemy this

58:26

is actually also going to do a little

58:27

bit of damage uh in competitive modes

58:29

this damage pulse is very very low it's

58:31

actually using the 0.01 multiplier

58:33

because the primary value of the skill

58:35

is the boons it is the combo field but

58:37

that was not quite up to what we really

58:39

needed it to be in pve so we put a

58:41

damage pulse on there and just split it

 

 

 

 

[Jski.6180]

7 hours ago, scerevisiae.1972 said:

yeah i think this is on the money.

• rework F5 for sure. needs to be a separate field per element (seperate CDs), moveable, or recastable.
  Personally I'd prefer F5 just has a regular 10sec CD, and the field lasts 3-5sec (3sec base, 5sec with traits). remove energy mechanic completely.
• normalise _most_ but not all hammer skills to be 600 range, with a couple of 900-1200 skills so hammer is not useless in WVW.
  Beta hammer was WAY too similar to sword and dagger. Make it unique please.
• utilities were really really bad. Just god-awful, no exaggeration. 
  Rework completely to address the weaknesses of hammer -- mobility, condi clear, field generation, lack of block/evades/reflects. Utilities should actually provide utility, right?

 

At least, those would be the iterable improvements I'd be hoping for, but honestly I'd prefer a version of Catalyst where the utilities each provide a specific element field (call them wells) and the class mechanic is something entirely new. Make the elite grant 1200 range to all ranged skills for 5 sec, something like that.

 

If they don't make big changes after the near-universally negative reception (just look at the poll), then there's something majorly wrong.

F5 to be movable or make it a pure energy skill with a very low cd say 3 to 5 sec with no punishment to cutting it off and remove the apply on use effect and make it part of the pules effect that only happens after then first 1/2 sec but is still a field. At the same time making it a 0 sec cast skill or an "out side of the player cast" kind of like the pets using a skill. Over all an energy not an Adrenaline effect so time base not hit base.

Hammer skills getting more effects both in combos and fields. As well as 600 to 900 i think 1200 is too much for at least the 1 skills but the 5 skills i can see being 1200.

The utilities need to be on a much longer duration ( 5 sec is too short for such a "slow" class), do much more (with no cast time), and becomes aoe for there added effects. But for sure the utilities need to work for fields types not just f5.

@Infusion.7149

Sadly there preview was super misleading because of them using cheat effects.

Edited October 1, 2021 by Jski.6180

[Touchme.1097]

It's just an artwork, you will have a sad Hammer in EoD. 1% of the poll thinks it's a great Elite Spec, good luck with that...

[AshenOwl.2485]

5 hours ago, Touchme.1097 said:

It's just an artwork, you will have a sad Hammer in EoD. 1% of the poll thinks it's a great Elite Spec, good luck with that...

Hammer is definitely sticking around, I have no illusions that they'd rework the weapon before EoD. But they can still rework the Jade Sphere mechanic and aspects of the hammer before release, and given how few people are happy with Catalyst I expect we'll see it get some pretty substantial changes. 

[fuzzyp.6295]

ANet also posts sponsored partner arts about Tengu before and people think that means Tengu playable race are confirmed. I think as long as you are a partner for ANet, they retweet your art and don't care too much about the content.

The feedback for Catalyst was clear, people were unhappy with the F5, Jade Sphere and the Energy. I think its likely we'll see these issues addressed by the next time we are given info about Catalyst, but I don't think anyone should be holding out for a fully ranged Hammer Set Glass Cannon summoner or whatever people are thinking.

We'll probably just an updated spec that has more reliable access to combo fields, perhaps losing the energy mechanic all together, so Cataylst can combo more frequently. In turn, the boons given by the Jade Sphere are probably gonna be reduced or just slapped onto a traitline somewhere. But they're not going completely scrap the class and rework it from the ground up.

Edited October 1, 2021 by fuzzyp.6295
more reliable, not no oops lol

[Doggie.3184]

I thought it was something important but upon looking at it, it just looks like a joke.

But personally I'd want it deleted rather than reworked anyways. 😄 Bad weapon, bad mechanics, bad everything.

No point in salvaging it. Make a real Ele based on GW1 with an actual range weapon.

Edited October 1, 2021 by Doggie.3184

[keykey.9182]

Most likely we'll see the magic phrase ""Catalyst is in the spot we want it to be""

 

Which is the trash can

[Jski.6180]

13 minutes ago, keykey.9182 said:

Most likely we'll see the magic phrase ""Catalyst is in the spot we want it to be""

 

Which is the trash can

Like tempest being in a good places. Ele's Pokemon at this point is Trubbish.

[Aedil.1296]

7 hours ago, keykey.9182 said:

Most likely we'll see the magic phrase ""Catalyst is in the spot we want it to be""

 

Which is the trash can

Agree, that's exactly what's gonna happen. We know already from the past. 

So kittening sad really.