There is no niche or use for Vindicator in PvE.

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

10 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

It took me awhile to realize this, mostly because I didn't play the spec myself, but the abilities and the traits that the Vindicator bring are awfully similar to the Herald and Renegade. 

No offense but this ^ kinda invalidates what you say.  How can you criticize it when you didn’t even play it?!

Edited November 4, 2021 by Lonewolf Kai.3682

[Obtena.7952]

5 hours ago, Jah Warrior.9682 said:

I asked you that question because you spoke for anet. Noone else here did. I stated facts. Noone here also is able to force anet to do anything, including having a beta or even a forums for that matter to collect feedback on this spec( do you see the circular reasoning this brings up?). Those are facts. Then why do they do all of the above before release? 

I spoke for no one. What I'm saying is based on observing how Anet behaves for the last 9 years ... unlike the people that think Anet are creating especs for non-existent 'roles' in content to begin with. Why do they do a beta test? Lots of reasons, most obvious one is to see if the mechanics work. 

Quote

Here's another fact. One cant invalidate the opinions of others or the precedents that have been set by anet.

True and if you believe that, then you must believe that based on Anet's previous actions and balance patches, there isn't a reason for anyone to assume that Anet needs to pre-emptively change the spec because of an assumption there is no reason to play it due to  "not filling a role". 

Edited November 4, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

2 hours ago, Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

No offense but this ^ kinda invalidates what you say.  How can you criticize it when you didn’t even play it?!

Logic and reason.  

[phokus.8934]

5 hours ago, Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

No offense but this ^ kinda invalidates what you say.  How can you criticize it when you didn’t even play it?!

Didn't you know people have opinions on things they know nothing about?  Crazy world we're living in.

[nucklepuckk.1805]

Would've been cool to see a tank build, something to at least be an option besides chronomancer. Oh well.

[Obtena.7952]

15 hours ago, nucklepuckk.1805 said:

Would've been cool to see a tank build, something to at least be an option besides chronomancer. Oh well.

Really, I don't see anything preventing that on Vindicator. It probably isn't as good as Chrono ... 

Edited November 9, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Kidel.2057]

Despite the fact that 90% of the things added by this spec are unusable, the remaining 10% was good enough to allow Vindicator using Saint's Shield and only core legends to be decent (or even good) in WvW and PvP. 

The problem with the spec is that the new legend and F2 are trash (visually and mechanically), the weapon is meh and 2/3 "jumps" are seriously unusable and detrimental. 

10% of the class (namely the good endurance gain and the barrier jump) is very good, so there is ONE build that performs in WvW and PvP. 

Unless it gets nerfed, that build will probably keep a niche in those game modes. 

But I'm pretty sure most of the issues with the rest of the spec will be fixed sooner or later. Theyre too visible and obvious. 

Edited November 10, 2021 by Kidel.2057

[Aeolus.3615]

On 11/9/2021 at 6:26 AM, nucklepuckk.1805 said:

Would've been cool to see a tank build, something to at least be an option besides chronomancer. Oh well.

 

U can, close to 30k hp, close  to 3k toughness, self  heals probably acceptable damage with  a  ton of  self  might gain.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmwAExzlZSMsTyjlSdMUijpSksSigFtle0G-zxIY1omfMaWAVSANDA-e

Im expecting its  runes  to have some  condi cleanse, that would be somehting xD

Edited November 12, 2021 by Aeolus.3615

[Kidel.2057]

11 hours ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

 

U can, close to 30k hp, close  to 3k toughness, self  heals probably acceptable damage with  a  ton of  self  might gain.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmwAExzlZSMsTyjlSdMUijpSksSigFtle0G-zxIY1omfMaWAVSANDA-e

Im expecting its  runes  to have some  condi cleanse, that would be somehting xD

You should use Song or Arboreum with Resolution. It's always better if you have a good Vigor uptime (and it's almost permanent with this build).

 

I'm also not sure why ever use Cele on a GS+Sword Vindicator. You gain no benefit from the condi damage and duration at all. Both GS and Sword are power weapons, they need power to be high and gain nothing from condi damage/duration. 

I've been using this one and doing great dps while still being tanky: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmwAExzldQMMHyj1QdsHij9RksAigltkd8H-zRQYRUjnwOjIUCVIDU8JRQyn9wA-e

Invocation offers some nice flat bonuses (+10.5% average) and +20% crit chance (which is HUGE with 1038 Ferocity). This build gives you 85% crit chance (under Fury) and 19.5k hp, plus 2.8k atk. If you want to be more tanky you can go throw in some Soldier pieces. You're still going to crit a lot. 

Also Sharpening Stones will have a bigger effect on you because of the huge Ferocity. 

[Aeolus.3615]

On 11/12/2021 at 11:45 PM, Kidel.2057 said:

You should use Song or Arboreum with Resolution. It's always better if you have a good Vigor uptime (and it's almost permanent with this build).

 

I'm also not sure why ever use Cele on a GS+Sword Vindicator. You gain no benefit from the condi damage and duration at all. Both GS and Sword are power weapons, they need power to be high and gain nothing from condi damage/duration. 

I've been using this one and doing great dps while still being tanky: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmwAExzldQMMHyj1QdsHij9RksAigltkd8H-zRQYRUjnwOjIUCVIDU8JRQyn9wA-e

Invocation offers some nice flat bonuses (+10.5% average) and +20% crit chance (which is HUGE with 1038 Ferocity). This build gives you 85% crit chance (under Fury) and 19.5k hp, plus 2.8k atk. If you want to be more tanky you can go throw in some Soldier pieces. You're still going to crit a lot. 

Also Sharpening Stones will have a bigger effect on you because of the huge Ferocity. 

yes Arboreum is way better in this case, just didnt use it much cause 90%+ of my vindicator gameplay was in wvw, and there reavers curse was basicly perma 100% dodge, i assume if theres several targets on pve side as well will still be better than Arboreum if theres less than 4 targets on  combat well.. Arboreum is better.

 

I forgot we need no health in pve side :)  mobs almost die in presence of the player.,l lets see how game unfolds into higher dificulty gameplay.

Edited November 14, 2021 by Aeolus.3615

[Joxer.6024]

Why do these especs need to be support? cant they just be good ol solid DPS and the support thats been shining just keep on keeping on? Surely a spec doesnt suck buttermilk if it cant "support", or is that the latest one way or no way flavor now?

Hope not.

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, Joxer.6024 said:

Why do these especs need to be support? cant they just be good ol solid DPS and the support thats been shining just keep on keeping on? Surely a spec doesnt suck buttermilk if it cant "support", or is that the latest one way or no way flavor now?

Hope not.

Well, there are still LOTS of people in this game that can't even imagine how teaming with non-meta builds works so it's no surprise that based simply on what they see in a beta reveal, people are fearful they won't be able to play the espec in whatever content they imagine because "Class X does it better". 

Now, to be fair, even though not being meta isn't the death sentence people think it is ... buffing 'support' is proven to be the best way to address team desirability in PVE, especially offensive support. The thing people don't understand there is that the 'support' space is already crowded, and now we are going to get ANOTHER espec across the board. So either people start embracing the design philosophy of the game and accept a broader range of builds from players that want to play how they want ... or they continue to commit themselves to the self-inflicted purgatory of meta worship. 

Edited November 16, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

43 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Well, there are still LOTS of people in this game that can't even imagine how teaming with non-meta builds works so it's no surprise that based simply on what they see in a beta reveal, people are fearful they won't be able to play the espec in whatever content they imagine because "Class X does it better". 

Now, to be fair, even though not being meta isn't the death sentence people think it is ... buffing 'support' is proven to be the best way to address team desirability in PVE, especially offensive support. The thing people don't understand there is that the 'support' space is already crowded, and now we are going to get ANOTHER espec across the board. So either people start embracing the design philosophy of the game and accept a broader range of builds from players that want to play how they want ... or they continue to commit themselves to the self-inflicted purgatory of meta worship. 

This problem mentality is even more exasperated in some modes such as WvW and PvE  Raids. It’s to the point that it’s very frustrating when you can’t play the class you want to because it’s not accepted.  WvW commanders are even going to the point of either making sure your class, which isn’t considered accepted meta builds, is doomed to failure because the other classes that do it better need the extra support or altogether just kick you out of the squads. 

 

[Infusion.7149]

Only two weeks until next beta. It's probable that the damage against single targets will be increased in PVE for increased viability in instanced content. I've seen other people also complain about the urn so thankfully it's not just my opinion , hopefully that gets redesigned.

Cleaving 5 targets is a bonus on vindicator whether you like it or not. If it did 37-38K pDPS benchmark we would not have this thread. In particular if you have alacrity covered you would not run condi ren on fights where strong power damage is preferred (KC/VG for example, but to a lesser extent other places such as Adina).

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

On 11/14/2021 at 5:22 PM, Aeolus.3615 said:

yes Arboreum is way better in this case, just didnt use it much cause 90%+ of my vindicator gameplay was in wvw, and there reavers curse was basicly perma 100% dodge, i assume if theres several targets on pve side as well will still be better than Arboreum if theres less than 4 targets on  combat well.. Arboreum is better.

 

I forgot we need no health in pve side 🙂 mobs almost die in presence of the player.,l lets see how game unfolds into higher dificulty gameplay.

So I did some maths and figured out the best trait combo to use for pure endurance regen was to use Reaver’s Curse plus endurance food (40%) and always have Vigor (50%). If you Just hit 1 single target, you get about the same benefit compared to using Arboreum, which would actually get you ovecapped 100% using the same food/vigor combo.   Arb would be a 10s to full endurance while Reavers with a 1 target hit gets you 10.18s. With a 5 target hit, you get 8.77s for a full bar again. 
 

The problem with this though is that you give up food that had better benefits, like ascended food. 
 

3 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Only two weeks until next beta. It's probable that the damage against single targets will be increased in PVE for increased viability in instanced content. I've seen other people also complain about the urn so thankfully it's not just my opinion , hopefully that gets redesigned.

Cleaving 5 targets is a bonus on vindicator whether you like it or not. If it did 37-38K pDPS benchmark we would not have this thread. In particular if you have alacrity covered you would not run condi ren on fights where strong power damage is preferred (KC/VG for example, but to a lesser extent other places such as Adina).

I’m pretty anxious to see what’s changed. I don’t think anyone liked the Urn. 

Edited November 16, 2021 by Lonewolf Kai.3682
Clarification

[Joxer.6024]

23 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

. So either people start embracing the design philosophy of the game and accept a broader range of builds from players that want to play how they want ... or they continue to commit themselves to the self-inflicted purgatory of meta worship. 

Oh one can but hope!!!!

And, like Bladesworn I saw this as well, which along with those builds linked above gives hope that just maybe ANET will smooth things out cuz kitten it looks fun to play! And I just might pick up WVW on it cuz it looks fun there as well!  

 

Edited November 17, 2021 by Joxer.6024

[Kidel.2057]

On 11/14/2021 at 11:22 PM, Aeolus.3615 said:

yes Arboreum is way better in this case, just didnt use it much cause 90%+ of my vindicator gameplay was in wvw, and there reavers curse was basicly perma 100% dodge, i assume if theres several targets on pve side as well will still be better than Arboreum if theres less than 4 targets on  combat well.. Arboreum is better.

 

I forgot we need no health in pve side 🙂 mobs almost die in presence of the player.,l lets see how game unfolds into higher dificulty gameplay.

For wvw cele makes a bit more sense.

I'd still argue Arboreum is mathematically better (no food). That will surely be fixed. 

Edited November 21, 2021 by Kidel.2057

[ASP.8093]

On 11/12/2021 at 7:21 AM, Aeolus.3615 said:

 

U can, close to 30k hp, close  to 3k toughness, self  heals probably acceptable damage with  a  ton of  self  might gain.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmwAExzlZSMsTyjlSdMUijpSksSigFtle0G-zxIY1omfMaWAVSANDA-e

Im expecting its  runes  to have some  condi cleanse, that would be somehting xD

The "+% health" rune calculation on gw2skills.net is currently bugged, fyi.

So it's closer to 25k health.

[Jthug.9506]

On 11/4/2021 at 7:10 AM, draxynnic.3719 said:

From discussions I've had and seen with others, Vindicator does seem to be better as a straight healer than Herald or Renegade. Saint of Zu Heltzer with HP investment is a fair chunk of healing and barrier, and because that's the one that only needs 50 endurance, combine it with Song of Arboreum and it can be repeated scarily often. The actual Alliance Skills aren't so reliable because of the flipovers, and I could see it being run as something like Jalis/Ventari instead, but there's something. Healing on its own isn't generally in high demand, but getting good healing out of a build that also has the utility of Ventari and Jalis might well prove worthwhile, possibly as a tank.

 

Not getting that pure DPS spec that people wanted is a bit disappointing, though. 

It’s a better 5 target healer than herald maybe but it’s definitely not as good for solo healing 10 man content. And it doesn’t bring quickness or alac while 5man healing so it’s a less attractive healer than scrapper or firebrand, it also doesn’t bring unique 10 target buffs like spirits that would make it more attractive than Druid. Herald otoh has facet of the dragon which gives a 20%boon duration increase not affected by capped bd, so I would personally prefer that to vindicator unless we really needed the vigor. Or maybe if we were looking at an extremely high pressure encounter. However it’s probably quite good for a heal slot in competitive modes, although it will still be lacking for cleanse and defensive boons compared to scrapper and firebrand.

Edited November 23, 2021 by Jthug.9506

[Aeolus.3615]

On 11/23/2021 at 7:11 PM, Jthug.9506 said:

It’s a better 5 target healer than herald maybe but it’s definitely not as good for solo healing 10 man content. And it doesn’t bring quickness or alac while 5man healing so it’s a less attractive healer than scrapper or firebrand, it also doesn’t bring unique 10 target buffs like spirits that would make it more attractive than Druid. Herald otoh has facet of the dragon which gives a 20%boon duration increase not affected by capped bd, so I would personally prefer that to vindicator unless we really needed the vigor. Or maybe if we were looking at an extremely high pressure encounter. However it’s probably quite good for a heal slot in competitive modes, although it will still be lacking for cleanse and defensive boons compared to scrapper and firebrand.

The only thing that heals well is the low CD leap landing heals, one cant expect to dodge spam in midle of combat >_>

Vindicator can be a decent class to help put health back but for what ic every heal on Vindicator is in a range of a T-Rex arms , that works well only to nearby alies 250 range if i recall, and Herald has passive regen ticks over 1k(slightky over) for 10 players in pve at a 600 range, outside pve for support has  a direct heal(1.6k HP) every 3 sec on top of that 1k regen on 5 players that happens every sec, and herald has some shield condi cleans aoe on a team 5k heal and self condi cleanse on shield 5, the only thing that the herald looses for going support is the crits chance and crit damage but that can be "kinda mitigated" with invocation traitline.

Herald is more a class that cares about alies while trying to bruise enemies altough its support could be slightly better tuned outside pve.

Vindicator seams more towards heavy damage combat while providing some health filling towards its close allies, if one expext to spend more time on vindicator heal than damage will probably drag more the team than help, its more towards giving some support while doing damage and not the other way arround imo, note barrier on dodge landing needs 2 stats vitality and healing power.

So far  the best stats ive found for vindicator are really celestial with maybe some players mixing gears with it to tune it better towards their desired values.

Edit: issue with Vindicador condi cleanse (wich felt actually very nice) but its on a flip skill.

Edited November 27, 2021 by Aeolus.3615