Is It Possible for Monk to, One Day, Become it's Own Class?

[YujiSeo.6325]

I know Monk in GW1 was mostly Healer-focused, but it doesn't have to be exactly like that at all considering how every class is nothing like their GW1 counterparts to begin with. It could be more similar to D&D's Monk or even Everquest's Monk where it's much more DPS focused. Sadly, I don't think they'd want to add a new weapon type for Monk since Monk, in most games it's in, uses knuckles or...their own hands as a weapon, but they are often depicted with Bo Staves and, rarely, daggers and wands. I know it's asking a lot since they'd need to not only add in Monk as a base class, but also add in 3 elite specializations for it but Monk, I'd love to see as a playable class in GW2 someday, if not, maybe, hopefully, in GW3...if that becomes a thing. 


(Also, Tengus would be nice to have as a playable race, but, at this point, I dunno if it will happen)

Edited October 9, 2021 by ArcanicBunny.7304
Forgot ///Edit 2: Typo

[VocalThought.9835]

I thought Willbender was the elite spec representing monk...🤷🏼‍♂️

[YujiSeo.6325]

Well, yeah, but it's not truly monk. Plus, having it as it's own class would be nice so you don't have to work up to level 80 to experience it at all. It being tossed into, basically, nothing more than an advancement for a class that is basically Paladin feels a bit wrong. Just would be nice to have it as it's own thing instead of being lumped into an already existing class. 

Is just how I feel about it, does kinda suck that a lot of older classes in MMOs seem to either get forgotten about entirely or just barely exist inside another class like Bard, Druid and Monk.  (all of which happen to be my favourite classes)

[Vayne.8563]

Monk worked a lot better in a game without multiple races. It doesn't  work thematically in Guild Wars 2.

[Gehenna.3625]

2 hours ago, VocalThought.9835 said:

I thought Willbender was the elite spec representing monk...🤷🏼‍♂️

Not the monk class of GW1 though. The specs were healing, protection and the dps spec smiting. And divine favor as the monk specific spec (meaning that other classes don't have access to it when dual speccing as monk). The closest representation of this is the Firebrand but that's all built into one elite spec.

 

The willbender is a dps spec with lots of movement skills, so at best it would have to be comparable with smiting prayers. So does the willbender have knockdown skills and holy damage? You know, double damage to undead and armor ignoring spells? I really don't see anything in the willbender that would make a fair comparison to the GW1 monk. 🤷‍♂️

[YujiSeo.6325]

31 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Monk worked a lot better in a game without multiple races. It doesn't  work thematically in Guild Wars 2.

I mean, most MMOs I've played that have monk had multiple races such as the Everquest series and FF14 and they work just fine, so using race as an excuse for a class not to exist in GW2 is invalid.

[Omega.6801]

No.

[Vayne.8563]

2 hours ago, ArcanicBunny.7304 said:

I mean, most MMOs I've played that have monk had multiple races such as the Everquest series and FF14 and they work just fine, so using race as an excuse for a class not to exist in GW2 is invalid.

But some MMOs limit what races can be certain things. Guild Wars 2 lore has nothing to do with any other game. It's all very nice to say that most MMOs have monks as multiple races, but Guild Wars 1 exists as a game that only had humans.  Monks were pretty much dwayna worshippers.  They have healing specs in this game, but even so healing works completely differently. I suggest having a monk would play very differently in Guild Wars 2 regardless of whether you name a class a monk or not. As already suggested one of the new elite specs already has several monk features. Why the need to call it a monk? It's probably as close to a monk as you'll get in Guild Wars 2.

I mained a mesmer in Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2 and they're very different animals and can't be played the same way. Not sure calling something a monk would make any difference anyway.

[Fueki.4753]

2 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

But some MMOs limit what races can be certain things. Guild Wars 2 lore has nothing to do with any other game. It's all very nice to say that most MMOs have monks as multiple races, but Guild Wars 1 exists as a game that only had humans.  Monks were pretty much dwayna worshippers.

If Guardians can be of all races, there's no way a Monk could not be. Both effectively wield the same kind of magic. Human Guardians still are followers of Dwayna (and Balthazar until Season 3), while the other races's Guardians aren't.

Monk, or any other religious wording, would be unfitting for GW2 though.

Also, two out of three magic types that monks wielded were based on Balthazar worship. Only heal Monks had Dwayna as their patron deity.

Edited October 9, 2021 by Fueki.4753

[lezbefriends.7516]

Just wear the stupid outfit. Bam, monk!

[genjonah.1253]

As with my favorite class from GW1 (ritualist), I think all you’re going to get is the skin from the gem store. Even though strikes/raids do have dedicated healers now, the big concept of the game at launch was that there was no healer class. Again, understanding that while strides have been made away from that, soooo much of the game is built on the idea that each class heals itself and may support others without needing the dps/heals/tank trinity. Introducing a new full on class, especially heal-based, would require catastrophically high levels of development because you would need to back change and rebalance everything else. 
 

again, I feel you- I miss my Ritualist dearly (as well as paragon. Dervish is fine because, frankly, as much as the devs can try to claim otherwise, Revenant is the Derv spiritual successor, not the Rit, but that’s another discussion…), but I really don’t see the viability of ANet producing another whole class outside of new elite specs. I’d love to be proven wrong, but I just don’t see it

[Jski.6180]

I though monk in gw world was an healing class.

[Fueki.4753]

1 hour ago, Jski.6180 said:

I though monk in gw world was an healing class.

It has been used as the primary healer profession for most of the content.

But there have been other builds as well. For example, 55HP Protection Prayer tanks were used with Necromancers to duo certain parts of the Underworld.

Smiting Prayers weren't used all that much, but I've seen such builds here and there. When playing with a full team of Heroes, I played a Smiter Monk myself, too.

[draxynnic.3719]

Not impossible, but highly unlikely for two reasons:

 

First, because introducing an entirely new profession at this point would be difficult due to how many elite specialisations they'd need to do at once to reach parity with the others.

 

Second, because it's basically guardian. A large part of the story behind guardian origins is that monks got fed up with always being targeted first and decided to armour up and train with weapons so they could defend themselves against warriors and assassins/thieves. They've ended up with less healing, more smiting, and about the same protection, but that's a function of core profession design. A guardian that focuses on healing and support is, for most intents and purposes, a monk that happens to be wearing heavy armour.

 

I'd note that 'it's religious and therefore human' is not a reason. Most races in GW1 had monks, although they'd probably called them something different. It's a characteristic of monk/guardian magic that it's channeled through faith, but the object of that faith doesn't matter - for humans it was usually religion, but a modern charr could theoretically become a 'monk' through faith in their warband (although they'll probably become a guardian instead).

 

8 hours ago, genjonah.1253 said:

As with my favorite class from GW1 (ritualist), I think all you’re going to get is the skin from the gem store. Even though strikes/raids do have dedicated healers now, the big concept of the game at launch was that there was no healer class. Again, understanding that while strides have been made away from that, soooo much of the game is built on the idea that each class heals itself and may support others without needing the dps/heals/tank trinity. Introducing a new full on class, especially heal-based, would require catastrophically high levels of development because you would need to back change and rebalance everything else. 
 

again, I feel you- I miss my Ritualist dearly (as well as paragon. Dervish is fine because, frankly, as much as the devs can try to claim otherwise, Revenant is the Derv spiritual successor, not the Rit, but that’s another discussion…), but I really don’t see the viability of ANet producing another whole class outside of new elite specs. I’d love to be proven wrong, but I just don’t see it

I don't think ArenaNet has ever claimed that rev was a rit successor - in fact, I think they've explicitly said that it's not. It's a certain segment of the player base that keeps insisting it is just because it has 'channels something from the Mists' as a characteristic in common, despite doing so in a completely different way.

 

After seeing the Shing Jea showcase, I have a suspicion that one of the masteries being kept under wraps will turn out to be ritualist stuff.

[genjonah.1253]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Not impossible, but highly unlikely for two reasons:

 

First, because introducing an entirely new profession at this point would be difficult due to how many elite specialisations they'd need to do at once to reach parity with the others.

 

Second, because it's basically guardian. A large part of the story behind guardian origins is that monks got fed up with always being targeted first and decided to armour up and train with weapons so they could defend themselves against warriors and assassins/thieves. They've ended up with less healing, more smiting, and about the same protection, but that's a function of core profession design. A guardian that focuses on healing and support is, for most intents and purposes, a monk that happens to be wearing heavy armour.

 

I'd note that 'it's religious and therefore human' is not a reason. Most races in GW1 had monks, although they'd probably called them something different. It's a characteristic of monk/guardian magic that it's channeled through faith, but the object of that faith doesn't matter - for humans it was usually religion, but a modern charr could theoretically become a 'monk' through faith in their warband (although they'll probably become a guardian instead).

 

I don't think ArenaNet has ever claimed that rev was a rit successor - in fact, I think they've explicitly said that it's not. It's a certain segment of the player base that keeps insisting it is just because it has 'channels something from the Mists' as a characteristic in common, despite doing so in a completely different way.

 

After seeing the Shing Jea showcase, I have a suspicion that one of the masteries being kept under wraps will turn out to be ritualist stuff.

Sorry, I suppose I lumped the devs in with the Wiki, which references being ‘like ritualists’ multiple times on the revenant page (even double checked right now)

[draxynnic.3719]

1 hour ago, genjonah.1253 said:

Sorry, I suppose I lumped the devs in with the Wiki, which references being ‘like ritualists’ multiple times on the revenant page (even double checked right now)

There's only two based on my ctrl-F, one of which is pretty specific and accurate. The other... is an example of what can happen with crowdsourcing. It's not technically inaccurate, but the similarities are pretty much all based on fluff rather than gameplay, especially if it's core revenant or herald being referred to.

[Vidit.7108]

Yeah! It would be really cool if Gw2 had a monk class. It could use physical skills like a warrior or that new willbender class. They could have utilities that threw punches and wield staves as a melee weapon. 

Too bad nothing like that exists in the game at all. 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Daredevil

[Kodama.6453]

On 10/10/2021 at 4:26 AM, draxynnic.3719 said:

There's only two based on my ctrl-F, one of which is pretty specific and accurate. The other... is an example of what can happen with crowdsourcing. It's not technically inaccurate, but the similarities are pretty much all based on fluff rather than gameplay, especially if it's core revenant or herald being referred to.

That's the thing most people you referenced as "this camp" mean, tho?

Revenant and ritualist are using similar (not identical) kinds of magic by using the powers of the mists for their spells. Then there are also references like revenant blindfolding themselves for better contact with the mist, which is the same reason why ritualists used to blindfold themselves in GW1.

No one claims that revenant is the successor of ritualist when it comes to gameplay, this would be engineer instead. But revenant is the successor of ritualist in theme, from all classes we have in GW2, revenant is the one closest to ritualist thematically.

[draxynnic.3719]

6 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

That's the thing most people you referenced as "this camp" mean, tho?

Revenant and ritualist are using similar (not identical) kinds of magic by using the powers of the mists for their spells. Then there are also references like revenant blindfolding themselves for better contact with the mist, which is the same reason why ritualists used to blindfold themselves in GW1.

No one claims that revenant is the successor of ritualist when it comes to gameplay, this would be engineer instead. But revenant is the successor of ritualist in theme, from all classes we have in GW2, revenant is the one closest to ritualist thematically.

People have made that claim, using the second claim as justification.

 

Personally, I'm not even convinced by the second. There's a fluff connection at the most basic level of 'channeling power from the Mists', but beyond that they diverge from each other substantially. It depends on just how broadly you define 'thematically', but I'd say they're no more thematically linked than guardian is with mesmer and elementalist. They all draw power from Tyria's magic and derive from bloodstone-empowered professions after all. Ritualists and revenants both draw power from the Mists, but they appear to draw from different parts of the Mists, employ different techniques, and gain very different abilities as a result.

 

If anything, necromancer is more connected thematically in GW2, having gained more power in the spectral realm, including limited abilities to channel energy from the realms of the dead. (Which does suddenly strike me that ritualist as we knew it might not be possible after the changes that have happened to the various realms of the dead. Ritualists might now only be able to commune or command spirits that are already (still) in the corporeal world rather than being able to pull from the Underworld.

Edited October 12, 2021 by draxynnic.3719

[genjonah.1253]

Which, again, is why I argue that Revenants are far more Dervish than Ritualist in the first place. A non-human deity based dervish, channeling the Avatars of powers past, melee oriented, herald reaaaaaaally feels like tear-down dervish. All you need is a scythe skin staff and it’s nigh perfect transfer to the newer combat system 

[Kodama.6453]

8 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Personally, I'm not even convinced by the second. There's a fluff connection at the most basic level of 'channeling power from the Mists', but beyond that they diverge from each other substantially. It depends on just how broadly you define 'thematically', but I'd say they're no more thematically linked than guardian is with mesmer and elementalist. They all draw power from Tyria's magic and derive from bloodstone-empowered professions after all. Ritualists and revenants both draw power from the Mists, but they appear to draw from different parts of the Mists, employ different techniques, and gain very different abilities as a result.

I don't get how you can overlook all the references for ritualist in revenant. Not only the mist magic and blindfolds, there is more and I want to name some examples:

Revenant literally had the title "ritualist" for their respective PvP achievement.

They keep giving revenant ritualist references in their elite spec skills. People already see the spirits you can summon as a renegade as something similar to spirits in GW1. They have the Charr theme instead of these shackled ghosts, but this still seems like a homage.

The newest addition vindicator gives the Kurzick variant skills the urn mechanic... They literally use the ritualist urn mechanic from GW1 here, you can hold the urn for a persisting effect (healing to allies) and drop it to get a burst effect (AoE healing and boons).

Even the entire theme of borrowing power from powerful beings in history can be seen as a ritualist reference. Ritualists used urns references specific powerful people in Canthan history to borrow their power as well. It became more spiritual now, instead of using an urn (except vindicator now also does this!), you borrow the essence of the legends from the mists.

Necromancer has almost nothing in common with ritualist thematically. The only resemblance of ritualist is that necromancer now also has some ghost powers with spectral abilities. But besides this, not really much. Meanwhile revenant has references literally all over the place.

Edited October 13, 2021 by Kodama.6453

[Kodama.6453]

5 hours ago, genjonah.1253 said:

Which, again, is why I argue that Revenants are far more Dervish than Ritualist in the first place. A non-human deity based dervish, channeling the Avatars of powers past, melee oriented, herald reaaaaaaally feels like tear-down dervish. All you need is a scythe skin staff and it’s nigh perfect transfer to the newer combat system 

I agree when it comes to gameplay, but not when it comes to theme.

Dervish was not the only class borrowing power from big personalities in GW1. Ritualist did, too. The entire urn mechanic was built around that, every urn named after a famous person in Canthan history you are borrowing magical power from.

kitten, the revenant PvP title used to be "ritualist", how much more obvious on top of the blindfold can Anet it make? They even gave vindicator a literal ritualist urn, kitten!

[Panda.1967]

On 10/9/2021 at 6:35 PM, draxynnic.3719 said:

I don't think ArenaNet has ever claimed that rev was a rit successor - in fact, I think they've explicitly said that it's not.

Actually they did… when the Revenant was first announced it was referred to by one of the devs as the spiritual successor to the Ritualist… the devs have later on (multiple times) said it isn’t, but that doesn’t negate the fact that they had at one time said it was… they also said the Guardian was the spiritual successor to the Monk, Paragon, and Ritualist back when they first announced the Guardian… their original lore to the origins of the Guardian was that it was a blend of those three professions over the centuries comming together as one order that embodies the fundamentals of all three.

Edited October 13, 2021 by Panda.1967

[draxynnic.3719]

9 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

I don't get how you can overlook all the references for ritualist in revenant. Not only the mist magic and blindfolds, there is more and I want to name some examples:

Revenant literally had the title "ritualist" for their respective PvP achievement.

They keep giving revenant ritualist references in their elite spec skills. People already see the spirits you can summon as a renegade as something similar to spirits in GW1. They have the Charr theme instead of these shackled ghosts, but this still seems like a homage.

The newest addition vindicator gives the Kurzick variant skills the urn mechanic... They literally use the ritualist urn mechanic from GW1 here, you can hold the urn for a persisting effect (healing to allies) and drop it to get a burst effect (AoE healing and boons).

Even the entire theme of borrowing power from powerful beings in history can be seen as a ritualist reference. Ritualists used urns references specific powerful people in Canthan history to borrow their power as well. It became more spiritual now, instead of using an urn (except vindicator now also does this!), you borrow the essence of the legends from the mists.

Necromancer has almost nothing in common with ritualist thematically. The only resemblance of ritualist is that necromancer now also has some ghost powers with spectral abilities. But besides this, not really much. Meanwhile revenant has references literally all over the place.

Guardian has the title "paragon" for their PvP achievement. There's a distant historical link, but that's about it there. As far as we know, revenant appeared completely independently to ritualist.

 

Ritualist and revenant have a very different approach. Ritualists summon relatively weak spirits, in a highly, well, ritualistic fashion, binding those spirits to objects or locations external to their bodies. Revenants channel the power of legends through their own bodies - and we've been explicitly told that revenants don't necessarily channel the spirit of the legend, "merely" the echo, and the Istan storyline demonstrated that the 'legend' doesn't have to be... no longer extant on Tyria to be channeled when revenants channeled Joko. Ritualists are scholarly spellcasters - revenants are a more martially minded profession where a lot of their abilities seem to be used fairly instinctively.

 

As for necromancers not having a resemblance: really? Ritualists are about summoning and controlling spirits and channeling power from the Mists. Modern necromancers are able to summon and control spirits and channel power from the Mists. Marjory's story of why she left the Ministry Guard also has necromancers doing things that in GW1 had been associated with ritualists, such as communing with a ghost and another necromancer banishing it to the Mists.

 

I think there is a degree to which, given the wide varieties of magical professions available on Tyria, it seems entirely possible that there might also be multiple distinct forms of mists magic as well that aren't any more linked than the four Tyrian schools are. Sure, there are revenant legends that mimic some ritualist abilities, but that's because those abilities are linked to the legend being channeled, sometimes even if these abilities weren't abilities the legend had in life.. Revenant can also just as easily imperfectly mimic guardian (Jalis), assassin (Shiro), necromancer (Mallyx) or druid (Ventari). In theory, revenant can prbably mimic anything if they find the right legend.

 

9 minutes ago, Panda.1967 said:

Actually they did… when the Revenant was first announced it was referred to by one of the devs as the spiritual successor to the Ritualist… the devs have later on (multiple times) said it isn’t, but that doesn’t negate the fact that they had at one time said it was… they also said the Guardian was the spiritual successor to the Monk, Paragon, and Ritualist back when they first announced the Guardian… their original lore to the origins of the Guardian was that it was a blend of those three professions over the centuries comming together as one order that embodies the fundamentals of all three.

It was Monk and Paragon in those interviews, ritualist wasn't mentioned until Sea of Sorrows was published after GW2 released.

 

Maybe one did slip and say it, but if that did happen, it's still overwhelmed by the number of statements that it wasn't intended as a ritualist successor, just something that shares fluff of drawing power from the Mists (but all four GW1 primary spellcasters shared the fluff of drawing power from the Bloodstones). The official line was pretty clear.

[Drascious.5714]

Completely unlikely, if not downright implausible.

 

Guardian at this point contains so many elements and skills that you could argue as intrinsic to the GW1 monk that it wouldn't work. Guardian damage is very much centred around the same sort of style as the smiting prayers line of Monk and much of it's support tools resemble protection prayers even down to the names of some of the skills.

 

The Guardian is actually very similar to the GW1 monk these days, support builds across all game modes strongly resemble the monk role from GW1 if you have any experience of GW1 monking i think this is pretty clear. The damage builds all focus around pulsing multiple hit type attacks very much like the smite builds of GW1.

 

I also think that the Bo staff wielding monk style is very very well covered by Daredevil and Revenant staff.

 

Finally the obsession people have over unarmed combat in this game is at the same ridiculousness as land spear. Because there is clear delineation between what is a one hander, two handed, under water or offhand weapon in GW2 there would always be a danger in shifting the status quo and that goes for doing main hand focus to resemble fist weapons too as off hand weapons are typically cheaper to craft/buy from many sources than typical one handed weapons. Also many skins for such a thing would simply not work at all and look really silly. The most likely for unarmed stuff is already being done with Willbender f1-3 or it has already been done with a transformation such as with Warrior rampage.