What is the purpose of energy on Catalyst?

[Raiken.1476]

As far as most profession mechanics are concerned, no matter how well they're balanced, I can at least see the purpose and the design vision behind them... except for the catalyst's energy. Why is it even there? What purpose does it serve for the class? What would be lost if it wasn't there at all? The only thing it does in practice is that it hurts any kind of boon support builds, most notably by delaying the catalyst's quickness application, crippling the group's opening burst if catalysts are used as a source of quickness. The sphere already has a cooldown, why not leave it at that? 

Edited October 9, 2021 by Raiken.1476

[Downstate.4697]

Energy system prevents 100% uptime which would be fine if the fields actually felt strong. Right now there isnt much difference between having it up and having it down. If all they want is access to fields then it should have no energy and have 100% uptime.

[Raiken.1476]

7 minutes ago, FrownyClown.8402 said:

Energy system prevents 100% uptime which would be fine if the fields actually felt strong. Right now there isnt much difference between having it up and having it down. If all they want is access to fields then it should have no energy and have 100% uptime.

 

The "uptime restriction" just seems like duration with extra steps to me.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

It makes the field "special", rewarding. But it's just an illusion, the energy mechanic is as useless as its field.

[Infusion.7149]

Needless complexity to gate the boons (only quickness is even noteworthy)

Camping air on hammer is not a strong build choice anyway. You'd only be able to do it on dagger probably.

@JSki : Druid is a completely different usage if you have might from other sources. You don't prebuff healing, you prebuff might + quickness.

The F5 should probably drain while it is up with energy maintained by the traits (Energized Elements , Spectacular Sphere, Sphere Specialist), rather than charging up. You're already penalized for ending the Jade Sphere early in the current iteration.

Edited October 9, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Jski.6180]

I guess its just like Druid Celestial Energy resource but you know anet hates the ele class so Druid gets a free raid with..

"We've observed that in strikes and raids, it has become common practice for druids to ask someone in their group to use the /gg command so they can fill their Celestial Energy resource by reviving them before engaging the boss. If you're going to have full Celestial Energy anyway, we see no point in making the group wait for this! Now, when engaging a raid or strike boss, the druid's Celestial Energy resource is automatically set to 100%."

and Cata will not.

To answer your question the purpose of energy on catalyst is because its an ele class and anet hates ele that the reason for every thing done to the class and the game i am guessing at this point. Its some next level vendetta agned to class that ppl in power at anet are making such moves.

Edited October 9, 2021 by Jski.6180

[scerevisiae.1972]

On 10/10/2021 at 4:45 AM, Raiken.1476 said:

 

The "uptime restriction" just seems like duration with extra steps to me.

^this. It should be a fixed duration (maybe extendable by traits).

The whole concept of energy as a resource is really dumb IMO.

It's not even original - it's functionally the same thing as adrenaline, only with warrior you gain access to powerful burst skills, with catalyst you get to make your boring field a couple of seconds longer. Omega-bad.

[Fueki.4753]

To me, it feels like the Energy is just there to intentionally cripple an already terrible specialization even more.

There is no way, Arenanet doesn't know Catalyst is the worst thing they ever put into the game.

It's like Arenanet is telling to stop playing Elementalist.

[Tempest.8479]

I actually think energy has the potential to be a pretty interesting mechanic, but there is too little interaction between energy and the traits and utilities for it to feel like it works right now. As it stands, there's a grand total of 1 trait that interacts with or modifies energy, and not a single utility. That leaves it feeling like a secondary resource that's just tacked on rather than a core part of the new profession mechanics.

There are several missed opportunities that, if corrected, could help integrate energy and make it feel genuinely interesting. For starters, every adept major trait should focus on energy generation in different ways. That would immediately alleviate some of the biggest pain points with maintaining energy. Then other effects can be filtered in throughout the rest of the traitline that directly modify or enhance gaining/spending energy. These effects can include (but are not limited to):

• Healing per energy point spent
• Gaining a stacking damage buff per energy point spent
• Increased energy capacity
• Increased energy drain in exchange for more powerful/faster/more mobile spheres
• Boons/conditions pulsed at specific energy thresholds
• Stat bonuses for maintaining/expending energy

Incorporating some of these ideas could make energy as a resource a worthwhile addition to an ele's arsenal. As for the utilities, I think the elite skill is a good place to add energy gain or bonuses for using/spending energy.

[Fueki.4753]

1 hour ago, Tempest.8479 said:

For starters, every adept major trait should focus on energy generation in different ways. That would immediately alleviate some of the biggest pain points with maintaining energy.

Or Arenanet could simply get rid of the biggest "pain point" of energy: it existing in the first place.

Instead of wasting an entire column of traits to ease that unnecessary shackle, traits could have some actual value.

For example, one of them could turn hammer into an actual ranged weapon at 900 range, instead of being this weird short range / melee hybrid. That way, people who want an actual ranged weapon could have their way, while Arenanet retains their half-baked hybrid stick.

Edited October 13, 2021 by Fueki.4753

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

19 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Or Arenanet could simply get rid of the biggest "pain point" of energy: it existing in the first place.

Instead of wasting an entire column of traits to ease that unnecessary shackle, traits could have some actual value.

For example, one of them could turn hammer into an actual ranged weapon at 900 range, instead of being this weird short range / melee hybrid. That way, people who want an actual ranged weapon could have their way, while Arenanet retains their half-baked hybrid stick.

I was thinking about something similar like making Major Grandmaster traits to affect the range of Hammer, 3 choices for Close, Mid and Long ranges for Hammer skills, it would make that e-spec unique with it's weapon more than anything else, but then we would have a problem working with other weapons so it could give some additional effects like gaining Aegis on Evade if Long range, Reflecting Projectiles and gaining superspeed on Mid range and creating field based on attument if Melee range. 

[Tempest.8479]

4 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Or Arenanet could simply get rid of the biggest "pain point" of energy: it existing in the first place.

Instead of wasting an entire column of traits to ease that unnecessary shackle, traits could have some actual value.

For example, one of them could turn hammer into an actual ranged weapon at 900 range, instead of being this weird short range / melee hybrid. That way, people who want an actual ranged weapon could have their way, while Arenanet retains their half-baked hybrid stick.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. Introducing a new secondary resource can actually be interesting to design around if they gave it the proper focus, and the devs have actually shown they can do it successfully with holosmith. If you look at Holo and Catalyst, the heat and elemental energy both serve as a new, secondary resource for managing the new mechanic (photon forge and jade spheres, respectively). If you look at how heat works, however, you can see the difference between an integrated, interesting resource that adds complexity and interesting build decisions and one that just kind of exists without a real purpose at the moment. All of the Holo GM traits modify how heat functions in interesting, meaningful ways. Both of the minors interact with heat, and all 3 adept major traits do as well.

I think if you remove energy altogether, you'd actually be robbing the Catalyst of some really interesting design space that the devs have already proven can be taken and molded to create one of the best designed elite specs imo. I think the Catalyst would be best served by actually refocusing the entire spec around energy and the sphere mechanic, as well as combining and focusing the variety of disparate buffs into a more unified and cohesive mechanical identity.

I actually made a thread about it not that long ago. If you don't want to read the whole long post about how I think Catalyst should be conceptually reorganized, though, I mocked up a sample traitline that uses those ideas to make energy more interesting a few posts later as a proof of concept, if you're interested.

[Fueki.4753]

47 minutes ago, Tempest.8479 said:

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. Introducing a new secondary resource can actually be interesting to design around if they gave it the proper focus, and the devs have actually shown they can do it successfully with holosmith. If you look at Holo and Catalyst, the heat and elemental energy both serve as a new, secondary resource for managing the new mechanic (photon forge and jade spheres, respectively). If you look at how heat works, however, you can see the difference between an integrated, interesting resource that adds complexity and interesting build decisions and one that just kind of exists without a real purpose at the moment. All of the Holo GM traits modify how heat functions in interesting, meaningful ways. Both of the minors interact with heat, and all 3 adept major traits do as well.

I think if you remove energy altogether, you'd actually be robbing the Catalyst of some really interesting design space that the devs have already proven can be taken and molded to create one of the best designed elite specs imo. I think the Catalyst would be best served by actually refocusing the entire spec around energy and the sphere mechanic, as well as combining and focusing the variety of disparate buffs into a more unified and cohesive mechanical identity.

I actually made a thread about it not that long ago. If you don't want to read the whole long post about how I think Catalyst should be conceptually reorganized, though, I mocked up a sample traitline that uses those ideas to make energy more interesting a few posts later as a proof of concept, if you're interested.

Even if this currently worst elite specialization had the potential to become something decent, we already know that Arenanet wouldn't capitalize on it. I certainly don't see any potential with all the micromanagement systems baked into it.

It's like Arenanet just wanted it to be complex for the sake of being complex, with no adequate performance payout in the end.

 

[Emberheart.8426]

1 hour ago, Tempest.8479 said:

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. Introducing a new secondary resource can actually be interesting to design around if they gave it the proper focus, and the devs have actually shown they can do it successfully with holosmith. If you look at Holo and Catalyst, the heat and elemental energy both serve as a new, secondary resource for managing the new mechanic (photon forge and jade spheres, respectively). If you look at how heat works, however, you can see the difference between an integrated, interesting resource that adds complexity and interesting build decisions and one that just kind of exists without a real purpose at the moment. All of the Holo GM traits modify how heat functions in interesting, meaningful ways. Both of the minors interact with heat, and all 3 adept major traits do as well.

I think if you remove energy altogether, you'd actually be robbing the Catalyst of some really interesting design space that the devs have already proven can be taken and molded to create one of the best designed elite specs imo. I think the Catalyst would be best served by actually refocusing the entire spec around energy and the sphere mechanic, as well as combining and focusing the variety of disparate buffs into a more unified and cohesive mechanical identity.

I actually made a thread about it not that long ago. If you don't want to read the whole long post about how I think Catalyst should be conceptually reorganized, though, I mocked up a sample traitline that uses those ideas to make energy more interesting a few posts later as a proof of concept, if you're interested.

The energy system is way better off being used for something like an arcane attunement or a form. Catalyst has way too many mechanics to juggle as it is, so giving energy the depth that is need won't happen. There is no design space for it, especially not on a field that you kind of need to have almost at all times for the spec to even work.

[Stallic.2397]

Arcane with energy build up would've been nice. An arcane archer would've been even better

 

But I agree, the energy mechanic would've been nice if they implemented it well with traits. When you look at other classes, especially old holo, players barely even thought about energy management because it was so well implemented. 

 

The reason why catalyst is the opposite is cause it's beta and anet didn't put much thought into it. Lol. But that's why this thread exists. Anet please fix! 

[Aedil.1296]

The purpose of energy is:

... to annoy me 😂

Kidding! 

The purpose of it is to add another layer of clunkyness to something unplayable already. 

Micromanaging to a whole new level. 

I would rather play a strategy game at this point 😅

[Tempest.8479]

3 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Even if this currently worst elite specialization had the potential to become something decent, we already know that Arenanet wouldn't capitalize on it. I certainly don't see any potential with all the micromanagement systems baked into it.

It's like Arenanet just wanted it to be complex for the sake of being complex, with no adequate performance payout in the end.

 

 

3 hours ago, Ganathar.4956 said:

The energy system is way better off being used for something like an arcane attunement or a form. Catalyst has way too many mechanics to juggle as it is, so giving energy the depth that is need won't happen. There is no design space for it, especially not on a field that you kind of need to have almost at all times for the spec to even work.

I think there might be some miscommunication here because we seem to be closer to the same wavelength than you might think. As it currently stands, I largely agree with both of these statements. Between aura-based effects, elemental empowerment, hammer coils, and energy/sphere mechanics, Catalyst has too many micromanagement systems. These effects also don't synergize particularly well, and create a situation where the spec is being pulled in too many directions for it to feel cohesive. That's why I think those systems need to be pared down and refocused around the energy/sphere and 1 other buff that can be modified via traits. That would free up the design space to make the process of gaining/spending energy more of the central mechanic while creating a stronger mechanical identity that sets it apart from tempest and weaver.

What I don't agree with is the assumption that the spec can't be saved or that energy as a mechanic is better off being used on something else. Several other specs have been reworked over the years to make them more distinct and/or cohesive (see: deadeye, scrapper, herald, chrono, berserker). Granted, these reworks have all had varying degrees of success. Even if the execution hasn't always been perfect, however, the devs have shown that they've been willing to make sweeping changes to an elite spec before. Hopefully with the betas occuring much earlier than we've ever had, there's more room for big changes that wouldn't have to wait until after launch.

And while energy can surely be used for something like an arcane attunement/arcane archer, that's not to say that energy can't be fit for purpose on Catalyst. So long as the right considerations are made with regards to refocusing the spec, I think that there's plenty of potential for energy to be an interesting and worthwhile mechanic.

[Zephyrus.9680]

Energy is fine (like revenant) but this is more like warrior's adrenaline which I'm not a fan of.  The real question is what is the point of the jade orb?

 

Currently there is no point. I hope they give it a point because the concept is nice. 

[Emberheart.8426]

24 minutes ago, Zephyrus.9680 said:

Energy is fine (like revenant) but this is more like warrior's adrenaline which I'm not a fan of.  The real question is what is the point of the jade orb?

 

Currently there is no point. I hope they give it a point because the concept is nice. 

This is like warrior adrenaline, just way worse. There are almost no additional ways to generate energy, while warrior has so many skills and traits that can help. Also, warrior waits to build up adrenaline and then unleashes a burst skill for an big and instant effect. Catalyst needs to wait to generate energy, and then needs to wait again for the field to go through all it pulses. Basically delayed use on an ability with delayed effects, which also forces you to stay in one place. Delay after delay. 

Edited October 14, 2021 by Ganathar.4956

[Kodama.6453]

It makes the catalyst scale in efficiency when facing multiple enemies at once. 

Many bruiser elite specs are designed in a similar way, rewarding the player in some way for being in the thick of battle against many enemies at the same time. Some examples for this:

• Scrapper: the minor trait grants barrier for all strike damage you deal. Cleaving multiple enemies means more strike damage dealt, making it easier to cap your barrier generation.
• Vindicator: all Archemorus skills are scaling their effects for each foes struck
• Willbender: gets boni for activating virtue passive, their virtues are AoEs and passive activate by hitting foes. Hitting multiple foes means to proc these passives more often, also gaining the boni more frequently

You get the idea. Energy is doing the same for catalyst, it is a method to reward the catalyst player for fighting multiple enemies. Energy builds up for every hit you deliver. Hitting multiple enemies means that you build up energy faster, giving you earlier, easier and more frequent access to the jade sphere in these circumstances.

Edited October 14, 2021 by Kodama.6453

[Phyrak.7260]

Energy would make sense if it were a camping spec XD

[Grand Marshal.4098]

Personally I don't like this mechanic at all. 

Refining my personal idea and some other things from the quoted post. Get rid of the sphere, create a new UI with 5 "orb slots" next to the elements, reward the player with an elemental orb for comboing into fields rather than gaianing an aura for each combo, to make it a bit separate from Tempest. The first orb you get gives you the AoE the sphere gives you now. The orbs will last for a similar duration as the hammer ones do (only exception where you don't need to combo to get the robs, therefore making it an appealing weapon for the spec, but not mandatory) and the more you have the quicker the interval of the boon application per element. At 5 orbs reduce the cooldown of your elements as well. The rest (concerning perma boon/field uptime) can be thought out trhough a beta. If that change ever happened lel.

 

Dunno, I just hate the sphere and hate the fact that we didn't get a new element mechanic. Like this is Core with F5. I hate this. That's not what ele is. It's meant to give a unique way to manage your elements each time. In my idea I don't propose something like that, but at least it's an unique, less clunky and more beneficial mechanic with a more interesting UI than a little box that you can hardly see the energy/icon of.

 

 

[Bleikopf.2491]

The intent behind the energy gated F5 makes sense. The entire idea of the spec is to become more threatening the longer you are in the fight. The F5 is part of the reward for staying longer in a fight. So far, the energy mechanic makes sense with the intent behind it.

The comparison to Warrior adrenaline is correct in that regard (I say this as someone who barely ever touched Warrior, correct me if I'm missing something) as it's meant to gate a reward.

It's just simply bad. The F5 is horrible in its current state, and locking it behind energy doesn't measure up. The fact it's the only combo field for Hammer-Catalyst makes it even worse.

"What's the purpose behind energy on catalyst?" ANet figured it's an easy way to gate another reward mechanic on the catalyst. That's the purpose.

[AshenOwl.2485]

3 hours ago, Bleikopf.2491 said:

The intent behind the energy gated F5 makes sense. The entire idea of the spec is to become more threatening the longer you are in the fight. The F5 is part of the reward for staying longer in a fight. So far, the energy mechanic makes sense with the intent behind it.

See, this makes sense when the payout is bursty, not when it's supportive. In a fight you want to go in with your F5, letting it buff you and becoming more dangerous as long as you stay in your sphere. But because you have to work up to use the F5 you're mainly ineffective until it's active, and then even when it's out you're waiting for it to start ramping up.

[Bleikopf.2491]

3 minutes ago, tesnow.4721 said:

See, this makes sense when the payout is bursty, not when it's supportive. In a fight you want to go in with your F5, letting it buff you and becoming more dangerous as long as you stay in your sphere. But because you have to work up to use the F5 you're mainly ineffective until it's active, and then even when it's out you're waiting for it to start ramping up.

I agree. The payoff is too little and the entire spec (on Hammer, the designated weapon) is built on something you don't have access to until some time into the fight. That's badly designed.

I don't know if any support could work if it's only unlocked later into the fight. It's an interesting design space. And it also shouldn't be something as important as Quickness, that you want at the start of the fight.
Something off the top of my head: Rebound might be valid in that design. It's not something you need at the start of the fight (I hope), but it's still quite powerful in its effect if used right. Of course, Rebound is already taken by Tempest.

But even then, the spec shouldn't rely on it. It should be a bonus, not a basis of a spec.