Celestial/Minstrel Manifesto [Merged]

[schloumou.3982]

3 minutes ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Cough Guard, cough Ranger, cough Herald, cough Tempest, cough Scrapper, cough Mirage

 

Warrior makes a lot of might too 😯

I honestly don't know what you want to tell me.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

Just now, schloumou.3982 said:

I honestly don't know what you want to tell me.

the builds that output a lot of strong boons are from the classes I mentioned and make full use of cele in roaming.

 

Warrior part is a joke cause warrior only prodices might so yeah lets nerf warrior.

[schloumou.3982]

30 minutes ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

the builds that output a lot of strong boons are from the classes I mentioned and make full use of cele in roaming.

 

Warrior part is a joke cause warrior only prodices might so yeah lets nerf warrior.

Don't get the joke. Wasn't talking about warri at all. I mean sorry bud if thats your main atm but still no idea what your point is. Cele scapper is not a build. A cele scrapper without alchemie is not strong. I know it's not a popular aproach to look at proplametic builds because one actualy needs to be able to name skills/traits that hit you or caused problems in the encounter instead of "condi op/ cele op" but it is more likely to improve the gameplay imho.

You act like these builds are immortal killing machines when slaping on cele but they are not. They have no dmg without might stacks, are not realy tanky without protection and get corrupted to pieces by competent necs. Problem is their boonspam potential which most specs can't deal with. So imho lets adress that.

Edited January 19, 2022 by schloumou.3982

[Grand Marshal.4098]

53 minutes ago, schloumou.3982 said:

Don't get the joke. Wasn't talking about warri at all. I mean sorry bud if thats your main atm but still no idea what your point is. Cele scapper is not a build. A cele scrapper without alchemie is not strong. I know it's not a popular aproach to look at proplametic builds because one actualy needs to be able to name skills/traits that hit you or caused problems in the encounter instead of "condi op/ cele op" but it is more likely to improve the gameplay imho.

You act like these builds are immortal killing machines when slaping on cele but they are not. They have no dmg without might stacks, are not realy tanky without protection and get corrupted to pieces by competent necs. Problem is their boonspam potential which most specs can't deal with. So imho lets adress that.

And I present you builds which have access to boons based on classes (too many boons) that abuse cele stats and even if they need them to function as you say, which I don't disagree with, they still maintain high pressure if played properly in same skill levels. Necromancer should not be the answer to these specs lol. 

 

Just other specs need buffs that obv can't avuse such stat sets. The stat enables them to play like that. The classes play the builds cause of cele. previously they didnt cause cele wasnt buffed, Cele got buffed and these builds surfaced because they can exist with this awful stat set.

[schloumou.3982]

2 hours ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Just other specs need buffs that obv can't avuse such stat sets. The stat enables them to play like that. The classes play the builds cause of cele. previously they didnt cause cele wasnt buffed, Cele got buffed and these builds surfaced because they can exist with this awful stat set.

Dunno. I think it's the traits/skills/runes/sigils interaction that makes braindead gameplay not the stat. And builds where braindead even before the feb patch that made things arguably worse because it was basically just number tweaks again without any follow up. When Corona Burst does multi hit aoe damage, stacks might, gives stab etc, you just spam it off cd no matter the stats. If spamming 1 on flamethrower gives you perma stab/might/barrier people will do it no matter the stats. If we buff the other specs we are just back at that state again where everybody complains about power creep, and rightfully so imho.

But yeah maybe make anti boon mechanics more available to other professions when the gameplay revolves so much around them.

Edited January 19, 2022 by schloumou.3982

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

4 hours ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Cough Guard, cough Ranger, cough Herald, cough Tempest, cough Scrapper, cough Mirage

 

Warrior makes a lot of might too 😯

Warrior 💩s out might like nobody's business, but then so much of it's sustain is linked to pumping it out so... 

[Zyreva.1078]

47 minutes ago, schloumou.3982 said:

Dunno. I think it's the traits/skills/runes/sigils interaction that makes braindead gameplay not the stat. [...]

Generally i tend to agree that traits/skills, etc. and not gear stats are the culprits when it comes to balance issues, but not in case of cele. Full cele offers almost 75% more stats in total than 3 stat gear. That's ridiculous. In comparison, the difference in total stats between 3 and 4 stat combinations is less than 10%. At some point the downside of a wider spread of attributes and less specialisation becomes negligible, if the difference in total stats is that big (and many builds are able to utilize every single one of those attributes anyway). Boons amplify the difference further, but aren't the sole offender.

Cele used to be balanced before the buffs. Useful for a few builds (which made it already better than like 90% of other stats) but not overly dominating. Now i'd say that outside from an organised squad with very specialised roles (and players who got an idea how to perform those roles), where you might still want to run zerk and minstrel, there are not many reasons to not use cele. For solo and small scale cele builds tend to outperform other builds for most classes and in most situations and even for pug zerging and "clouding"  i think the majority of players would be better off running cele than some cookie cutter meta build designed for GvG style comps.

Ofc not every single build becomes op just because you slap cele gear onto it. It is simply always possible to create bad builds. And you can still run non cele builds and do ok. I mean, some players are so bad that builds aren't relevant at all. The die to an upleveled char in random green gear.

It is also true that boon spam is op regardless of cele or not, and boon removal could be made more accessible, but i don't think it would actually make cele more balanced. Because pretty much every build nowadays relies on boons one way or another and all of them would get hit by increased boon hate. Btw with my almost no might cele trapper i have less issues with stalemating fights than with most other builds i ran previously - might is always great, but not mandatory for every cele build and the same is true for other boons).

Cele isn't the only ímbalanced thing for sure, but that does not mean it is balanced. Reverting the completely unneccessary buffs won't fix WvW balance out of a sudden, but it would be a step into the right direction imo.

 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, schloumou.3982 said:

Dunno. I think it's the traits/skills/runes/sigils interaction that makes braindead gameplay not the stat. And builds where braindead even before the feb patch that made things arguably worse because it was basically just number tweaks again without any follow up. When Corona Burst does multi hit aoe damage, stacks might, gives stab etc, you just spam it off cd no matter the stats. If spamming 1 on flamethrower gives you perma stab/might/barrier people will do it no matter the stats. If we buff the other specs we are just back at that state again where everybody complains about power creep, and rightfully so imho.

But yeah maybe make anti boon mechanics more available to other professions when the gameplay revolves so much around them.

Its definitely the traits, skills, runes, and sigils and not the states. Don't tell the PvP crowd that, all they do is blame the stats 95% of the time until amulets get removed. Then they QQ about the necro and guard population.

WvW needs a larger amount of boon denial. Not corrupts mind you, but boon stripping, in an AoE, that also places a debuff on you to stop more boons from being applied.

Warriors were discussing making the Disenchantment effect from WoD a feature within the traitline so that stripping a boon/hitting with a CC applies the effect for a few seconds. That would be one way of doing it.

[schloumou.3982]

3 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Generally i tend to agree that traits/skills, etc. and not gear stats are the culprits when it comes to balance issues, but not in case of cele. Full cele offers almost 75% more stats in total than 3 stat gear. That's ridiculous. In comparison, the difference in total stats between 3 and 4 stat combinations is less than 10%. At some point the downside of a wider spread of attributes and less specialisation becomes negligible, if the difference in total stats is that big (and many builds are able to utilize every single one of those attributes anyway). Boons amplify the difference further, but aren't the sole offender.

Cele used to be balanced before the buffs. Useful for a few builds (which made it already better than like 90% of other stats) but not overly dominating. Now i'd say that outside from an organised squad with very specialised roles (and players who got an idea how to perform those roles), where you might still want to run zerk and minstrel, there are not many reasons to not use cele. For solo and small scale cele builds tend to outperform other builds for most classes and in most situations and even for pug zerging and "clouding"  i think the majority of players would be better off running cele than some cookie cutter meta build designed for GvG style comps.

Ofc not every single build becomes op just because you slap cele gear onto it. It is simply always possible to create bad builds. And you can still run non cele builds and do ok. I mean, some players are so bad that builds aren't relevant at all. The die to an upleveled char in random green gear.

It is also true that boon spam is op regardless of cele or not, and boon removal could be made more accessible, but i don't think it would actually make cele more balanced. Because pretty much every build nowadays relies on boons one way or another and all of them would get hit by increased boon hate. Btw with my almost no might cele trapper i have less issues with stalemating fights than with most other builds i ran previously - might is always great, but not mandatory for every cele build and the same is true for other boons).

Cele isn't the only ímbalanced thing for sure, but that does not mean it is balanced. Reverting the completely unneccessary buffs won't fix WvW balance out of a sudden, but it would be a step into the right direction imo.

 

Some valid points.

Quote

"It is also true that boon spam is op regardless of cele or not, and boon removal could be made more accessible, but i don't think it would actually make cele more balanced. Because pretty much every build nowadays relies on boons one way or another and all of them would get hit by increased boon hate"

Aye to some degree, but does a stunbreak really need 6s of quickness+stab+vigor baseline without stats for example? I mean no wonder things completely escalate if you add boon duration to this. I would rather normalise this stuff first which has been done to some degree in sPvP and then reevaluate the situation instead of nerfing removing stats that haven't been relevant for most of the time anyways.

 

Quote

Cele used to be balanced before the buffs. Useful for a few builds (which made it already better than like 90% of other stats) but not overly dominating.

Afaik no popular build used it, besides s/f fire weaver which wasn't really popular eihter because given it had crazy sustain, you basically could just casualy walk away from it. Some builds from vanilla like dd celementalist come to mind but they haven't been good for ages. Not sure if thats a good metric because by that logic you would need to look at mara/trailblazer/minstel/dire/zerk more urgent. I mean they really dominate the meta for most od the time.

Quote

Btw with my almost no might cele trapper i have less issues with stalemating fights than with most other builds i ran previously - might is always great, but not mandatory for every cele build and the same is true for other boons).

Don't get you here. They need might to do damage and pressure. Of cause you can stalemate without it. I can make a Nomad's teef and stalemate you forever.

Quote

Cele isn't the only ímbalanced thing for sure, but that does not mean it is balanced. Reverting the completely unneccessary buffs won't fix WvW balance out of a sudden, but it would be a step into the right direction imo.

Agreed. In the end maybe there just aren't the ressorces to do fine tuned specific adjustments to builds on a regular basis and nerfing stats is better than nothing but i would prefer to try the other aproach first.

[Zyreva.1078]

50 minutes ago, schloumou.3982 said:

Afaik no popular build used it, besides s/f fire weaver which wasn't really popular eihter because given it had crazy sustain, you basically could just casualy walk away from it. Some builds from vanilla like dd celementalist come to mind but they haven't been good for ages.

Cele wasn't very popular, but perfectly viable. If not full cele, then as addition to other stats. Especially for various ele builds ofc (not just core or fire weaver, also tempest and i even had good results with mixing in some cele pieces on dagger lr weaver) but also on some ranger, rev and engi builds. Even on necro it wasn't bad.

Quote

 

Not sure if thats a good metric because by that logic you would need to look at mara/trailblazer/minstel/dire/zerk more urgent. I mean they really dominate the meta for most od the time.

The thing is, those stats aren't dominating because they offer "more". It is because of the synergy within those stats. A lot of combinations simply don't make much sense and would need a complete rework to become useful. But there was still stuff like diviners, crusader, and a few more that - while not the best as full set - made great additions to some zerk or mara builds. But now those stats are mostly redundant , because going partially or fully cele simply results in straight up better builds.

Quote

Don't get you here. They need might to do damage and pressure. Of cause you can stalemate without it. I can make a Nomad's teef and stalemate you forever.

 

I guess i worded that poorly. What i meant is, the problem of fights ending in a stalemate is happening less often. I can kill almost everything with my cele trapper, including other cele builds. And those few players i can't kill, i won't be able to kill with other ranger builds in most cases. The exception are thieves, which tend to be easier to kill with burst (sic'em) builds for obvious reasons (if the thief is bad that is - good (SA) thieves won't die to anything). Vs cele they tend to run away instead of dieing more often, but i still take that as a win tbh.

Edited January 20, 2022 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[subversiontwo.7501]

1 hour ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Cele wasn't very popular, but perfectly viable. If not full cele, then as addition to other stats. Especially for various ele builds. /.../

A lot of combinations simply don't make much sense and would need a complete rework to become useful. But there was still stuff like diviners /.../now those stats are mostly redundant , because going partially or fully cele simply results in straight up better builds.

Now I need to poke my head in here again because you are essentially starting to talk about the same stuff as I have talked about but from a perspective of geartypes. I've argued the same from a broad perspective of classes. I still consider what you say about Cele to be true now as then. It's viable, I don't see it as very popular and I used the classes and interactions as examples.

If you make a Ranger then Diviner is viable and it is not better to just go Celestial. If you make an Elementalist it could possibly benefit from the boons but its stat totals never make it viable. You do not have the base stats to make the boon stats more valuable than just going all out power stats. Similarily, while such a class has access to conditions it is always in a hybrid frame the way the class mechanics and weapon skills are built.

If you take the heavy classes you have a similar situation. The stat totals on Warriors and Revenants allow them to make all kinds of gearsets and weapon mechanics useful. This is what enables both power, condi and hybrid approaches as well as a rather seamless balance between aggressive and defensive stats. That is why Celestial do not necessarily stand out on them. It stands out on the Guardian but not because it turns the Guardian into a monster but rather because that class has never really had (as-) viable access to balancing defensive stats or chosing weapons as that class is always a hybrid thanks to its class mechanics.

So if you look at all the classes in the game:

• Thief has some interesting interaction with Celestial but tend to perform better on both pure power and condi, afforded to it through all its specialised mechanics.
• Revenant is pretty powerful on Celestial but what is essentially the same build(s) is more or less equally powerful on any typical stat combination.
• Warrior may not utilize Celestial as well as Revenant (due to not having access to anything as powerful as Renegade shortbow) but the same general rules apply.
• Necromancer sits in the same seat as those two heavy classes. It has affluence of stats and the options that with it.
• Ranger does quite well with Celestial but while it may not have as broad access to stats as some classes it does well on a variety of stats for different purposes, that includes somewhat unique geartypes like Diviner.
• Mesmer is arguably weaker on Celestial than either going full power or full conditions based on how that class is.
• Engineer is subjected to the same type of discussion as Mesmer. It could even be argued that Engineer condition mechanics has been nerfed so much that power is ahead on every build.
• The stat holes, hybrid nature and relatively cleaned-up mechanics make the Elementalist and Guardian more predisposed to use Celestial. Not because it turns them into the best classes out there but because all their other options set them in some sort of extreme where they only utilize part of their class design (power with stat-holes, limited mobility and no stealth; condition with access to limited conditions at a time or being relegated to pure support builds). You would think that boon stats, (hybrid-) healing stats or the like would be appealing for these classes but it usually isn't due to the stat holes, how they utilize those stats and what they imply in practical play.

So what exactly is the problem that we are trying to solve here? Seven classes uses other geartypes as well or better. Two classes use Celestial better but hardly stand out above the other. The one possible caveat is the other discussion that Vallun brought up:  The attention Guardian get on Minstrel gear in larger scale content. However, I feel like that argument has been sufficiently put down. People who have issues with that only tend to have superficial experience of larger-scale composition theory and they tend to apply it from a perspective of the outside looking in.

They may envy how tags prioritise Guardians, but they're not interested in playing that support role themselves, and stability is the only priority. If that ever was an issue it can easily be solved by simply changing the balance between crowd-control and stability in favour of stability. It can't be solved by favouring crowd-control without completely throwing the balance between ranged and melee builds again - returning us to a pirateship meta where melee does not exist, at all. People who think the current balance and meta is just about melee simply do not understand how these things work, at all, because they are at the outside looking in. You can join any public squad on coms and hear all the ranged calls being made.

Edited January 20, 2022 by subversiontwo.7501

[Zephyrus.9680]

Minstrels: Swap Toughness and Vitality major/minor stats on the set. Still viable, just as many stats, but not as infinite sustain. It does not need to be removed, just corrected. 

Celestial: Remove concentration and expertise again. It was already a strong set before the buff but now overtuned even more. 

[Zyreva.1078]

14 hours ago, subversiontwo.7501 said:

If you make a Ranger then Diviner is viable and it is not better to just go Celestial. [...]

No. Just no. I was never sold on (full) diviner for soulbeast (or any other ranger spec), but it still was a valid option.

But now? It isn't anywhere close to the level of cele. Have you actually looked at the stats? In best case scenario for diviners you are trading about ~ 30% direct dmg and some boon duration, that can easily end up being wasted (or even working against you if you run into someone with absorbtion sigil) for a huge loss in survivability. We are talking about ~ 30% healing on top of ~ 30% armor and almost 40% more hp for cele. If we account for might and more optimal rune choices (on diviners you pretty much have to run a defensive set, while on cele offensive runes are great) that difference in power drops considerably (< 15%) while the defensive advantages of cele remain significant (which indirectly adds to your offense, because it allows more agressive play). So even on a build with zero condition dmg output, which is worst case for cele and not something i'd recommend, the difference in dmg won't make up for the disparity in survivability. And the moment you start adding some dmg condis, cele pulls ahead in offense too. And we didn't even talk about the potential value of extra seconds of weakness, chill, cripple, vuln or immob. So why exactly would you ever want to run diviners over cele?

And similar applies to other stats as well as other classes. Engi, rev and guard are besides ranger the biggest beneficiaries of cele buffs imo (and lets be honest – none of those needed the help). But also on other classes cele simply offers you more than anything else whenever you go away from highly specialised builds (with burst or support being the only worthy "specialities" imo). You always lose more than you gain with other choices, the disparity in total stats is just way too big (60% - 75%!) and many builds make good use of all attributes. Due to the hybrid nature of cele you are also less likely to run into hard counters. Pure power can struggle vs high toughness, protection, stone heart, weakness spam. Pure condi can get shut down by cleanses. Combining lots of defense against both while retaining enough offense to threaten cele sustain is much harder.

If you want to gank/oneshot players – go zerk. Wanna play a pure healbot – go minstrel. But for a more balanced approach cele is the way to go.

Even TB, which is also somewhat popular, pales in comparison and many condi builds would be better off with cele gear imo, because every build has at least some direct dmg and the more cleansing the enemy has, the more relevant that becomes, while those without cleanses die anyway, doesn't matter whether it takes 8 or 10s. It is basically what i did on ranger and it worked out great. Same on core necro. Not so experienced on that class, but being able to hammer players with 3,5k crit dhuumfire quickness autos and the ability to make good use of lich (other core necro elites are garbage in comparison) should make up for lower condi dmg and toughness . Other necro specs make even better use of cele compared to tb. Condi thief has decent power scaling. Same with condi rev, no reason to not go cele. Mirage? Idk, most i meet nowadays seem to run cele (or power). Not the scariest build out there, but i'd say the same about pure condi mesmers, which used to be more common previously. Warrior … well, some things can't get fixed with stats alone (it is also the reason why weaver doesn't benefit from the cele buffs as much as one might think, even tho the synergy is obviously there).

Ofc there are some exceptions. D/P daredevil or rifle DE come to mind, which do best with mara. But other than, idk, right now i can't think of non zerk/cele/minstrel builds that i'd put on the same lvl.

You also need to keep in mind, that we don't have actual data about commonness of various builds and even if we had, it probably wouldn't mean that much, because many players simply run bad builds. All we have is assumptions based on anecdotal experiences and those can be misleading.

I mean, many of my opponents seem to think i'm running tb/dire, because my build is more oriented towards condi, when it is in fact full cele. Stuff like "condi noob" "tb carry" etc are common responses after killing players, but not once did someone complain about cele. When i was running lr weaver, not many would have guessed i had mixed in some cele, as it is typically considered a power build. And while playing with my guild, i had someone cry about our "50% minstrel comp" even tho the "supportiest" gear used in our grp was – you might be able to guess it by now – cele. To me it seems like many players think of cele builds as "useless no dmg tanks" so they automatically assume, what just killed them has to be something different.

Edited January 20, 2022 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[schlop.2873]

Not sure if this goes in the celestial topic, the 'nade' topic, or the scrapper topic.. but it showed up in my youtube feed. 😛 

 

 

 

Note: not blaming celestial or nades or scrapper individually but the combination of the 3 is amazing (and not asking to nerf any of them, just thought it was funny).

• * The scrapper is very skilled, he out-skills the zerg he kills and reaaaallly outplays them.
• * The build is super tanky with alc healing per boon application, SS, etc.
• * Perma super speed, might, etc

[SweetPotato.7456]

I do not agree.

[GoldenPants.1870]

On 2/5/2022 at 9:11 PM, schlop.2873 said:

Not sure if this goes in the celestial topic, the 'nade' topic, or the scrapper topic.. but it showed up in my youtube feed. 😛 

If that many players fail to kill 1 player.. It’s probably the fault of the enemy.

[ArchonWing.9480]

Yea cele is a bit broken here, but the enemy couldn't even chain 2 ccs together vs a build with no stunbreaks and resorted to mindless pew pew.

Meanwhile, you have at least 2 necros with no boonstrips, a firebrand that doesn't know what a reflect or a shield is, and a tempest that realized too late that going earth would solve many problems. And then some pug pew core rangers, but as everyone knows, these don't count so we'll just ignore them. Out of these, at least 1 of them knew how to use fear ring to good effect. 1-2 more players that knew something like that would make it a lot harder.

Outplayed. The video maker just kited them perfectly.

Although it should be noted it's actually an 2vx, since there was some help from the thief, but same thing. But regardless, people keep saying a single player can't do anything when outnumbered, soo.... people try to do that then.

Edited February 8, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[Reborn.2934]

On 2/5/2022 at 10:11 PM, schlop.2873 said:

Not sure if this goes in the celestial topic, the 'nade' topic, or the scrapper topic.. but it showed up in my youtube feed. 😛 

 

 

 

Note: not blaming celestial or nades or scrapper individually but the combination of the 3 is amazing (and not asking to nerf any of them, just thought it was funny).

• * The scrapper is very skilled, he out-skills the zerg he kills and reaaaallly outplays them.
• * The build is super tanky with alc healing per boon application, SS, etc.
• * Perma super speed, might, etc

 

Excellent choice of video for the topic against ARMOR STATS (celestial,mistrel) and thank you that you post it.

if someone REALLY watch it he will see what made this fight victorius for this player...

3 reasons. 

1) skills-masteries-traits (unkown for us , they are his/her secret)

2)  BLOCKS

3) EVADES!

i will not speak about 1) because this topic is about armor stats but for 2) and 3) reasons.

But, CELESTIAL OR MINSTREL ARMOR STATS have nothing to do about 1) or 2) or 3)!!!

so,  if someone wants to blame something about this OP situtation blame ...

a) sigil of energy* + runes + traits that give more endurance resrtoration for unlimited EVADES . read more :https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Endurance

and

b) SHIELD (SKILLS + traits) that can used by an engineer in ANY Specialization unlike Memser for example that can use shield only with chrono spec.

The correction should be on skills corrections and on runes or sigils that are creating exploitations like this on video and not on armer stats because PEOPLE HAVE INVENTED ON THESE ARMORS!

 

STOP SCREWING YOUR PLAYERBASE'S TIME PLEASE.

 

* do you understand dear reader why this sigil is and was one of the most expensive?

Edited February 9, 2022 by Reborn.2934

[GoldenPants.1870]

15 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

people keep saying a single player can't do anything when outnumbered, soo.... people try to do that then.

It depends, is the enemy equally skilled as you ? You can’t win that outnumbered.

 

Well I mean you can but its a reaaaallllllyyy miniscule chance.

 

But if the opponent is less skilled than you then you can win outnumbered easier.

[ArchonWing.9480]

9 hours ago, GoldenPants.1870 said:

It depends, is the enemy equally skilled as you ? You can’t win that outnumbered.

 

Well I mean you can but its a reaaaallllllyyy miniscule chance.

 

But if the opponent is less skilled than you then you can win outnumbered easier.

Yea you generally can't do that against similarly skilled players.... unless you are using something massively broken. That's also why it was easier in the early eras of the game to do stuff like that, because many people were just clueless and there were no sites to tell you what to build or what traits/utilities are good.

But anyhow, when people get beaten 6v2 or whatnot, it's clear the problem is with the 6.

Edited February 9, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[Sahne.6950]

On 1/19/2022 at 3:58 PM, schloumou.3982 said:

Cele scapper is not a build.

oh boyy. you couldnt be any more wrong xD I have a buddy that is playing cele scrapper.... OHHH MYY you are so wrong xD! Cele scrapper is pretty good.

[GoldenPants.1870]

15 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

using something massively broken.

SA traitline :^)

[schloumou.3982]

6 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

oh boyy. you couldnt be any more wrong xD I have a buddy that is playing cele scrapper.... OHHH MYY you are so wrong xD! Cele scrapper is pretty good.

I think you should read the whole discussion. Cele Scrapper is a gear and traitline choice that doesnt work without synergies like alchemie. No one denies you can make broken boon builds with it.

[Sahne.6950]

Just now, schloumou.3982 said:

I think you should read the whole discussion. Cele Scrapper is a gear and traitline choice that doesnt work without synergies like alchemie. No one denies you can make broken boon builds with it.

true i didnt get the whole context! now i understand the phrase: Cele scrapper is not a build. cele alone does not make the build.... gotchu 😄

[schloumou.3982]

20 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Yea you generally can't do that against similarly skilled players.... unless you are using something massively broken. That's also why it was easier in the early eras of the game to do stuff like that, because many people were just clueless and there were no sites to tell you what to build or what traits/utilities are good.

But anyhow, when people get beaten 6v2 or whatnot, it's clear the problem is with the 6.

I mean yes but it also doesn't mean the build is fine. It's pretty obvious that Nades and boon spam are both broken af in small scale. Not blaming Azza here. It's probably a healthy aproach to just accept we won't get meaningful attempts to balance this mode and just see how far you can push the most broken stuff for shits and giggles.