If the Mechanist Mech will be better than Pets i'll be pissed

[InsaneQR.7412]

If the Mech will hit more reliably, has better targeting and better interactability than the pet on a ranger i will unironically be pissed on Anet.

 

I am happy about the new engi spec but if their "Pet" will get the premium treatment over the actual "pet class" mechanic I will rant about it for the next 5 years.

 

IF the Mech has new Tech/Code that makes the AI better then please for the love of Melandru also put it on ranger pets.

 

 

Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

 

Cheers

[Dezember.1295]

My first thought to all the happy engineers in the chat was "Oh, just you wait..." :]

The good news is - IF the mech actually has a better AI, then I see no legitimate reason for Anet to keep it from us rangers. If not, then they are gonna have all the hyped engineers being sad about the poor pet AI / ultra nerf on pets (cause F pet builds x] ), which in return would mean that Anet might actually overhaul pet AI as a whole to get people to play Untamed and Mechanist. c:

All in all, I am happy for the engineers - it certainly looks kitten and awesome! I hope that it'll prove as versatile as the teaser video claims. c:

[InsaneQR.7412]

22 minutes ago, Dezember.1295 said:

My first thought to all the happy engineers in the chat was "Oh, just you wait..." :]

The good news is - IF the mech actually has a better AI, then I see no legitimate reason for Anet to keep it from us rangers. If not, then they are gonna have all the hyped engineers being sad about the poor pet AI / ultra nerf on pets (cause F pet builds x] ), which in return would mean that Anet might actually overhaul pet AI as a whole to get people to play Untamed and Mechanist. 😄

All in all, I am happy for the engineers - it certainly looks kitten and awesome! I hope that it'll prove as versatile as the teaser video claims. 😄

 

Yeah overall those are my hopes as well. Not that the Mech AI is actual trash like the Pet AI but that its better AND that it will be used to rplace our current Pet AI.

 

I still think making uniform Pet statblocks would be a smart move. All pets having the same stats, attack speed and wayfinding would make them easier to balance. Maybe the Mech is one stephin this direction.

 

 

[Khenzy.9348]

As I already said elsewhere...

If they get a better, more versatile, customzable, multipurpose ranger pet it's as if they are spitting on a ranger's face.

This feeling reminds me of when they massively buffed Scrapper to a point of becoming the best support and healer class in WvW in group play while also becoming a top tier roamer (and stupidly overpowered in terms of tankiness in PvE). While they massively nerfed druid to a point of making it almost completely unviable in group play and an average and niche roamer. 

Also as a reminder: Engineer's Med Kit (a single utility skill) is objectively better at healing and support than the entire Druid's Celestial Avatar mechanic and staff combined.

I feel like an envious child because Engineers are always getting way more attention and better toys than me.

Edited October 21, 2021 by Khenzy.9348

[MagicalLeaf.1307]

I have the feeling that the Engineer Golem will be much better. 

 

From what I can infer, the abilities look much better and they're also capable of Supporting while also dealing damage. We barely have tanks which can properly aggro or pets which can heal apart from Fern Hound.

 

However, with the idea of the Untamed actually buffing our pets, I feel like we're going to be able to actually get some better chance of having pets out more while making them more useful. Might even be able to use base game pets reliably for once. 

[MrForz.1953]

I did announce that in the case that there were no improvements, the spec would be trash. And that in the case improvements were made, then why not treat Ranger first? Given the track record I'm pretty sure that any improvement in that area would be praised so much that they'd announce it in the news.

[zidane.5194]

If the MassivelyOP article is to be believed, then the Engi pet will be better.  But, it is at the cost of utility skills to do it.  That is if I am reading it right.
https://massivelyop.com/2021/10/21/guild-wars-2-reveals-the-engineers-mechanist-spec-details-next-weeks-beta/

[Gotejjeken.1267]

Dunno, that golem looks like a big / stupid / slow pet to me.  The skills are flashy, but Engis already have FAR better options from looking at that trailer.  

[Cyric.7813]

It will

[Teratus.2859]

If this does end up being the case then it will only justify what I said in another post about how we need the Ranger pet system to be upgraded and gain a lot more customisation options for pet control etc.

[Arkham Creed.7358]

If I had to speculate I'd say the mech is going to be fundamentally better. By a long shot. The trailer mentioned slotting whatever traits you want, and several different attack types. Then I had a thought; the tool belt. If I'm right (it's happened multiple times in the past, regarding GW2) the mech is going to be driven by the tool belt. In that instead of having tool belt skills based on your utility skills, each utility will instead grant the mech a new function or attack. Sort of like if ranger pets had five beast skills instead of just the one, and we had a way to select what they were. 

[Dadnir.5038]

Let's be objective:

- The golem won't have high damage because the devs simply can't give high damage to a pet or they get a riot in the sPvP subforum.

- The golem won't be viable in large scale battle because it can't dodge (as sturdy as a pet is, there are reason why the ranger's pet fail at ZvZ and the golem won't escape the same fate as the ranger's pet).

- The "commands" do what the engineer already does but performed by the golem so it will be very suceptible to hard CC in it's "support". (I mean, if it's a moving projectile hate field, the engineer can already do it without the need of a cluncky medium for that)

- It will be locked into stupidly long and cluncky animations justifying impossibly long cast times.

Even an improved AI won't be able to save this.

 

With EoD, both ranger and Engineer basicaly get RP specs that will end up with limited usefulness in the game. To be honest, I kind of expected the necromancer to fall into this trap but I guess it dodged this trap in this round of e-specs (lucky necromancer).

[InsaneQR.7412]

2 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

If this does end up being the case then it will only justify what I said in another post about how we need the Ranger pet system to be upgraded and gain a lot more customisation options for pet control etc.

Honestly i would just be happy with a more streamlined system that has some trait interactions.

 

Something like this:

 

F1 Mark a target

F2 Pet skill

F3 Toggle Chase (attacks any target and prioritizes your marked target) or Stalk (attacks only your marked target and is stowed out of combat, entering combat will unstow the pet and trigger petswap and all related cooldowns and traits).

F4: Swap

F5: E-spec mechanic

 

Additionally all weapon skills interacting with your pet should be able to have some trait interactions.

 

Just that would improve a LOT in terms of having a more active/relevant pet interactivity.

[Substance E.4852]

They made the Scrapper, a survival bruiser, into a better team healer than the Druid

Of course the golem is going to be better than any of our pets

[Tails.9372]

3 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

- The golem won't have high damage because the devs simply can't give high damage to a pet or they get a riot in the sPvP subforum.

That's the real thing holding minion / pet based builds back right there.

Edited October 21, 2021 by Tails.9372

[Puck.3697]

4 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Let's be objective:

- The golem won't have high damage because the devs simply can't give high damage to a pet or they get a riot in the sPvP subforum.

- The golem won't be viable in large scale battle because it can't dodge (as sturdy as a pet is, there are reason why the ranger's pet fail at ZvZ and the golem won't escape the same fate as the ranger's pet).

- The "commands" do what the engineer already does but performed by the golem so it will be very suceptible to hard CC in it's "support". (I mean, if it's a moving projectile hate field, the engineer can already do it without the need of a cluncky medium for that)

- It will be locked into stupidly long and cluncky animations justifying impossibly long cast times.

Even an improved AI won't be able to save this.

 

With EoD, both ranger and Engineer basicaly get RP specs that will end up with limited usefulness in the game. To be honest, I kind of expected the necromancer to fall into this trap but I guess it dodged this trap in this round of e-specs (lucky necromancer).

 

well tbh, isnt the 2 current Meta Ranger builds in SPVP Core Ranger with Valks and Druid? both containing a pet.. we have seen pet builds work in SPVP (Agreed not in WvWvW).... realistically depends hopefully ranger dont lose Pet swap over this.. as thats quite vital to easy pet rezzing access effectively.

[Wild.1705]

13 hours ago, InsaneQR.7412 said:

I am happy about the new engi spec but if their "Pet" will get the premium treatment over the actual "pet class" mechanic I will rant about it for the next 5 years.

 

Only the next 5 years?

You have no idea how to hold a grudge.

Don't worry, I'll hold it for you.

 

I will NEVER forgive ArenaNet. EVER!!!!

 

I will rant not just for 5 years, or 10, or 20, or 100. I will rant until the end of time! 

 

All living beings throughout every universe will know the crimes committed against the ranger pets, and the suffering that I will have had to endure.

[Chrolo.8536]

The golem will probably be built around the weaknesses of an NPC. Maybe it cant even move but is like an advanced turret.

 

The talk about pets and AI does not make any sense. It does not use "AI" or KI or whatever you guys interpret into this word. It just runs to its target and excecutes the skills on its bar.

 

The easiest way to fix it, is to make pets  be able to move/follow the target while attacking/excecuting a skill or give them a big cleave radius so that they actually hit a target that moves slightly.

 

Maybe they take their time to do this with this expansion, so that the pet will also work in pvp/wvw. It probably means that they have to tweak most excisting pet skills and add a movement component. We will see if they have timr for that.

[Mauti.3520]

Remember when Thieves and Revenants where anxious about Willbender stealing their jawbs and rendering them useless?
Well....that didn't age well.

Enjoyed participating in this TED Talk! Chill your base.

[InsaneQR.7412]

42 minutes ago, Mauti.3520 said:

Remember when Thieves and Revenants where anxious about Willbender stealing their jawbs and rendering them useless?
Well....that didn't age well.

Enjoyed participating in this TED Talk! Chill your base.

Except that mobility is not a class feature the ranger pet is. I will be happy for engis no doubt. But i would still be salty that Anet invested the resources into a new spec without using it for a core class mechanic too. 

 

Willbender got mobility in a form that was already exists in the game. But if mechanist gets a pet mech that has better performance in terms of AI behaviour, hitting moving targets, pathfinding etc. I will be salty. Because they made something old better without bringing the old thing actually up to par.

 

Thats like making all shadowsteps into teleports except for thief. Although thief shadowsteps the most.

[InsaneQR.7412]

@Chrolo.8536

 

Colloquially if we talk about AI on a game forum we mean NPC bhaviour and not things like NEAT systems or learning AI. AI is coded intelligence. This can go from simple algorythms to complex self learning artificial neural networks.

 

Here i talk about simple algorythms. Like pathfinding, attack cancelling, self monitored evasion etc.

 

Plus i think giving core rangers metter management over the pets and updating the old dusty vanilla pets would do the class a favor.

[Arheundel.6451]

13 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Let's be objective:

- The golem won't have high damage because the devs simply can't give high damage to a pet or they get a riot in the sPvP subforum.

- The golem won't be viable in large scale battle because it can't dodge (as sturdy as a pet is, there are reason why the ranger's pet fail at ZvZ and the golem won't escape the same fate as the ranger's pet).

- The "commands" do what the engineer already does but performed by the golem so it will be very suceptible to hard CC in it's "support". (I mean, if it's a moving projectile hate field, the engineer can already do it without the need of a cluncky medium for that)

- It will be locked into stupidly long and cluncky animations justifying impossibly long cast times.

Even an improved AI won't be able to save this.

 

With EoD, both ranger and Engineer basicaly get RP specs that will end up with limited usefulness in the game. To be honest, I kind of expected the necromancer to fall into this trap but I guess it dodged this trap in this round of e-specs (lucky necromancer).

 

1) The pet will have enhanced mode during when infused with energy, we don't know what that will mean

 

2) We don't know how the cantrips or traits will work yet

 

3) The pet and ranger respectively gain a new set of skills while infused with energy

 

4) The spec has been described as melee brawler , the one style still missing from ranger( more or less)

"" The untamed and their pet juggle control of a raw, primal power to defeat their foes. Their pet weakens their prey before the untamed reclaims that vicious, raw power and delivers the final strike. The untamed is a melee brawler with the ability to shift from an aggressive damage dealer to a defensive bruiser. This transition is enabled by their Unleash ability, which passes a powerful nature magic between the untamed and their pet. Pets in this unleashed state gain access to new abilities that disrupt and debilitate nearby enemies. Additionally, the untamed's bond with their pets grants them more direct control over the default abilities of each pet, ensuring that they'll always be ready to strike when the time is right. The hammer wielded by the untamed is also affected by their Unleashed state, allowing for an adaptable playstyle depending on the situation. For their utility skills, the untamed gains access to the cantrip skill type. These cantrips create various defensive and crowd-control effects, giving the untamed the tools they need to thrive in melee combat. ""

Edited October 22, 2021 by Arheundel.6451

[Chrolo.8536]

2 hours ago, InsaneQR.7412 said:

@Chrolo.8536

 

Colloquially if we talk about AI on a game forum we mean NPC bhaviour and not things like NEAT systems or learning AI. AI is coded intelligence. This can go from simple algorythms to complex self learning artificial neural networks.

 

Here i talk about simple algorythms. Like pathfinding, attack cancelling, self monitored evasion etc.

 

Plus i think giving core rangers metter management over the pets and updating the old dusty vanilla pets would do the class a favor.

I would love it if they given the ranger pet some love, also outside of the elite spec. The points I mentioned are the only solution I can think off that the will realistically implement to deal with the current issues. I don't expect a big evolution in the pets "AI", at best some bandaid work. But even that would allready be great.

 

The point I wanted to make is, that the engi mech will certainly not have "better AI". I at least cant imagine it. It will rather be implemented in a way in which the known pet issues will not be relevant. Thats why I think it will probably be stationary and the dps part will com from its "ranged configuration" since this way movement and pathfiding dont play a big role. The meele configuration will probably be defensive and around a certain area, the same goes for the support configuration.

 

I am curious to find out soon.

Edited October 22, 2021 by Chrolo.8536

[anduriell.6280]

1 hour ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

 

1) The pet will have enhanced mode during when infused with energy, we don't know what that will mean

 

2) We don't know how the cantrips or traits will work yet

 

3) The pet and ranger respectively gain a new set of skills while infused with energy

 

4) The spec has been described as melee brawler , the one style still missing from ranger( more or less)

"" The untamed and their pet juggle control of a raw, primal power to defeat their foes. Their pet weakens their prey before the untamed reclaims that vicious, raw power and delivers the final strike. The untamed is a melee brawler with the ability to shift from an aggressive damage dealer to a defensive bruiser. This transition is enabled by their Unleash ability, which passes a powerful nature magic between the untamed and their pet. Pets in this unleashed state gain access to new abilities that disrupt and debilitate nearby enemies. Additionally, the untamed's bond with their pets grants them more direct control over the default abilities of each pet, ensuring that they'll always be ready to strike when the time is right. The hammer wielded by the untamed is also affected by their Unleashed state, allowing for an adaptable playstyle depending on the situation. For their utility skills, the untamed gains access to the cantrip skill type. These cantrips create various defensive and crowd-control effects, giving the untamed the tools they need to thrive in melee combat. ""

5) in bold the important part. That could mean a UI rework with better access to the pet skills. 

 

2 hours ago, InsaneQR.7412 said:

@Chrolo.8536

Here i talk about simple algorythms. Like pathfinding, attack cancelling, self monitored evasion etc.

Not even that,  it would be enough to have more interaction with the ranger, for example if the ranger use an evade skill the same effect would be transferred to the pet as distorsion. Same for cleanses.... It wouldn't even require an IU change. 

Edited October 22, 2021 by anduriell.6280
added a colon

[Teratus.2859]

15 hours ago, InsaneQR.7412 said:

Additionally all weapon skills interacting with your pet should be able to have some trait interactions.

That's actually not a bad idea tbh.

I'm thinking about taking away the pet's skills entirely and just having the auto attack and the on command F2.

Instead have it so that every weapon gets 1-2 skills that trigger a pet action based on the pet instead.
When you use those specific weapon skills, the pet uses a specific skill based on it's species type.

For example Spiders could shoot a web bola at enemies that immobilizes them for 1 seconds when Rangers use Greatsword 3
Felines could do a pounce attack, Canines would inflict taunt, Bears would cause knockdown, Moa birds would kick and stun etc

Cooldowns wouldn't have to line up with the Ranger skills either. they could utilise and modify the ammo system to make something like this work.

Could even give these skills a combo typing and have traits that focus specifically on these weapon skills and could even modify them similarly to how Necro's Scepter 3 changes with the Lingering Curse trait.