Untamed seems to miss the mark of being squad viable.

[anduriell.6280]

15 hours ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

The people you're pushing against don't drop them at your feet? 

You should remember to ask them nicely next time you are fighting, to drop those red circles at some range of you so you can remember to avoid them.

I do it all the time in wvw and every necro is nice enough to put the Reaper's_Mark just in front of me so i can see in advance. 

Edited October 23, 2021 by anduriell.6280

[BadSanta.6527]

i really hope anet will give all the wepons flip skills and not just hammer

[Dadnir.5038]

Beyond the pet being inadapted for zerg fight, the Untamed don't bring anything "competitive" in Zergs. The reality is that nowadays WvW is a gamemode where you have to be highly competitive in order to be welcome in a Zerg and, no matter how much people want to believe it will, Untamed bring nothing even close to be "competitive" there. A bit of projectile hate, instant mobility and boon rip sure are nice but, if you have to chose a profession for this kind of job, you'll 100% take the necromancer that don't have to rely on a "frail" and unreliable AI to do the job.

I'm honestly baffled to see someone even suggesting double bear to ensure the survivability of the pet in a zerg fight. GW2 pet AI is unreliable, even in the specs showcase CMC had a hard time keeping the pets in check. While keeping the pet in passive will allow the untamed to offer some amount of controled projectile hate, the moment you'll use the boon rip skill (and in fact most of the skills requiring a target) you'll lose control over your pet which will wander is AoE, be overloaded with CC and various conditions coming back "dead".

Those issues aren't "new", they are inherent flaw of the pet and the main reason the ranger struggle to find a place in Zerg since they changed the way stability work (A change that led players to start to optimize Zerg comp in order to compensate in front of the insane amount of CC the gamemode output).

[Lazze.9870]

On 10/23/2021 at 1:36 AM, Swagger.1459 said:

Kinda cute how you think this spec will be good for wvw squads, when a Staff Necro and Hammer Rev will still be better, more survivable, and more impactful options than some front line melee AoEer that will eat all the damage and get like 2 hits in. 

 

And don't bother with pets, you can give em 100k hp and their contribution will be meaningless, they will still die against the 100 AoE littered across the field. 

 

Necros usually run scepter/dagger and axe/focus for boon strip. At least they should.

 

Anyways, the spec has potential to improve the immobbeast role where you jump in with the spellbreaker to lay down CCs and damage in the bubbles. The vine cantrip together with entangle is really strong.

 

The problem however with this spec that soulbeast doesn't suffer from is of course the pet being suspectable to die easily. Even with two bears, which luckily doesn't change the unleashed skills. If you want proper stability cover for your pet you're also forced into nature magic which overall isn't that useful for other things except the boon share. Would have been helpful if the trait that gave boons on CC also gave pet the boons. Stab to the pet on CCs could at least levitate it a little bit.

 

Untamed does a few things right, the hammer especially looks good, but for wvw it's a one step forward one step back kinda situation going from soulbeast, just as I predicted it would be. If you could frankenstein the two specs and improve the boon strip a bit, it could be really good and finally give ranger what they needed to at least somewhat break into the wvw meta. As it stands I predict it to be a decent alternative to soulbeast, trading some damage for even better CC output and some bonus boon strips. But I also think its viability will fall off quicker than with soulbeast as the number of enemies increase.

[Arheundel.6451]

6 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Beyond the pet being inadapted for zerg fight, the Untamed don't bring anything "competitive" in Zergs. The reality is that nowadays WvW is a gamemode where you have to be highly competitive in order to be welcome in a Zerg and, no matter how much people want to believe it will, Untamed bring nothing even close to be "competitive" there. A bit of projectile hate, instant mobility and boon rip sure are nice but, if you have to chose a profession for this kind of job, you'll 100% take the necromancer that don't have to rely on a "frail" and unreliable AI to do the job.

I'm honestly baffled to see someone even suggesting double bear to ensure the survivability of the pet in a zerg fight. GW2 pet AI is unreliable, even in the specs showcase CMC had a hard time keeping the pets in check. While keeping the pet in passive will allow the untamed to offer some amount of controled projectile hate, the moment you'll use the boon rip skill (and in fact most of the skills requiring a target) you'll lose control over your pet which will wander is AoE, be overloaded with CC and various conditions coming back "dead".

Those issues aren't "new", they are inherent flaw of the pet and the main reason the ranger struggle to find a place in Zerg since they changed the way stability work (A change that led players to start to optimize Zerg comp in order to compensate in front of the insane amount of CC the gamemode output).

You are one of those people who wanted a pet elite for EoD, while me and those same others suggesting to use double bear, were the ones advocating for no pet elite for Eod. So based on what principle do you complain now?

 

I called "bunny thumper" a BS idea since its inception, always been an asinine concept for a game like GW2, now it's too late for anything....

 

I made threads suggesting for intangible spirits replacing pets for Eod, something in line with the lore too....but no...people wanted to "collect" pets, become a beastmaster. 

 

My thread before the untamed reveal, specifically explained why a pet elite would fail....but while few agreed with me, the majority were playing the "Wiseman" part....well..not so wise now, isn't it?

[Dadnir.5038]

13 minutes ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

You are one of those people who wanted a pet elite for EoD, while me and those same others suggesting to use double bear, were the ones advocating for no pet elite for Eod. So based on what principle do you complain now?

 

I called "bunny thumper" a BS idea since its inception, always been an asinine concept for a game like GW2, now it's too late for anything....

 

I made threads suggesting for intangible spirits replacing pets for Eod, something in line with the lore too....but no...people wanted to "collect" pets, become a beastmaster. 

 

My thread before the untamed reveal, specifically explained why a pet elite would fail....but while few agreed with me, the majority were playing the "Wiseman" part....well..not so wise now, isn't it?

There is "pet spec" and "pet spec".

I'm all for a pet spec as long as this spec:

1- don't keep the common pet list.

2- Have pet that deal close to no damage.

3- Have pet that are permmanently under the effect of the "determined" buff to compensate for the low damage.

Also, as far as I'm concern I've always been against the "bunny thumper" idea. Also I'm all for new collectible pets available to core, druid and Soulbeast, the new spec don't necessarily have to be able to benefit from them (well, now Untamed is pretty much a given so...).

In other word we both had similar requirement on what the e-spec should have been. The difference between us is that you hold on on an impossible hope that somehow Untamed will be viable in zerg while I don't.

Edited October 24, 2021 by Dadnir.5038

[Lazze.9870]

On 10/24/2021 at 11:07 AM, Dadnir.5038 said:

The difference between us is that you hold on on an impossible hope that somehow Untamed will be viable in zerg while I don't.

 

He isn't. He is suggesting how to make it work (somewhat) despite inheriting the flaws of the core class, but pointing out that this is the exact reason why he wanted a petless spec.

 

Untamed has potential, the hammer, the vine trap, access to boon strip. It all goes in right direction of improving the role that immobbeast already provides. But then there is persistent flaw of the pet itself that we have to deal with again. One step forward, one back.

 

Like I said above, a good wvw spec for ranger would be to frankenstein Untamed and soulbeast, and add a bit more boon strip than the one single skill (+ absorption and nullification sigils). That would result in a really good build that can jump in together with a spellbreaker and maximise your bubble while the scourges and revs bomb it.

Edit: how is this confusing to people?

Edited October 27, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[anduriell.6280]

3 hours ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

You're the only one trolling here. You can't even make an argument without resorting to Ad Hominem.

Just so we are clear, your solutions are; Move, use bears, and the 900 range blinks? 

If the only solution is to use bears which will deal near no damage and have minor benefits on F2 outside of unleashed, we may as well keep playing perma-merged SB and not have to deal with microing pet skills and health to get little benefit. 

I would stop engaging, usually he/she/they argument is a very bad take  but at this point that person is just looking for confrontation. 

 

1 hour ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

In other word we both had similar requirement on what the e-spec should have been. The difference between us is that you hold on on an impossible hope that somehow Untamed will be viable in zerg while I don't.

As you very well pointed out a pet elite could work in wvw if built correctly. It is true it will be a challenge but the options you offer (invulnerable pet) should never be on the table as that wold reduce the pet to a banner role. 

 

I'd like to point out that i am in the same train as you, the easier way to allow pet in WvW zerg fight is to be able to make the pet invulnerable for some time. Extrangely enough the Tamed has the mechanics embebbed to allow that but it wasn't show or it is not implemented. In this thread which you are already aware of I explained how to make it so:

I know the post doesn't looks like much but the tools are there to make the pet survivable in frontlines while not resorting to any invulnerability or very heavy reworks. Pets should get access to stability  or protection when CCing targets and some of the strike damage as healing. 

Also because the Tamed can share the elite and the cleanse cantrip the pet should be abel to survive longer in the area. And when needed the Tamed can cast the heal (reworked as the exploding spores thing) to heal and cleanse the pet too. 

The Cleansing Unleash trait should also help to cleanse that burning stacks if Anet does as suggested in there and every trait works on the pet too. 

 

In realitiy i am not asking to too much rework and i think that would make the pet much more sturdy in WvW. 

 

In PvP some balance choices can be done like the damage reduction from the elite to last shorter so the Tamed is alwas faced with some cooldown for the elite even in the best case, although i personally don't really see a reason to do that as it is enough to disengage for 10 seconds to get a 90s CD on that skill.  

 

 

 

 

[Swagger.1459]

4 hours ago, anduriell.6280 said:

I would stop engaging, usually he/she/they argument is a very bad take  but at this point that person is just looking for confrontation. 

 

As you very well pointed out a pet elite could work in wvw if built correctly. It is true it will be a challenge but the options you offer (invulnerable pet) should never be on the table as that wold reduce the pet to a banner role. 

 

I'd like to point out that i am in the same train as you, the easier way to allow pet in WvW zerg fight is to be able to make the pet invulnerable for some time. Extrangely enough the Tamed has the mechanics embebbed to allow that but it wasn't show or it is not implemented. In this thread which you are already aware of I explained how to make it so:

I know the post doesn't looks like much but the tools are there to make the pet survivable in frontlines while not resorting to any invulnerability or very heavy reworks. Pets should get access to stability  or protection when CCing targets and some of the strike damage as healing. 

Also because the Tamed can share the elite and the cleanse cantrip the pet should be abel to survive longer in the area. And when needed the Tamed can cast the heal (reworked as the exploding spores thing) to heal and cleanse the pet too. 

The Cleansing Unleash trait should also help to cleanse that burning stacks if Anet does as suggested in there and every trait works on the pet too. 

 

In realitiy i am not asking to too much rework and i think that would make the pet much more sturdy in WvW. 

 

In PvP some balance choices can be done like the damage reduction from the elite to last shorter so the Tamed is alwas faced with some cooldown for the elite even in the best case, although i personally don't really see a reason to do that as it is enough to disengage for 10 seconds to get a 90s CD on that skill.  

 

 

 

 

I think your suggestions miss the mark. Not sure where you think nerfing the Ranger, not improving weapon utility, and buffing the pet needlessly when it’s going to hit a target or 2 and die in seconds anyway… is good, but it’s not. 
 

You should really consider the actual gameplay, not just some imaginary setting where if you buff the pet it will be just dandy, and good squads will be begging for rangers and their pets in chat.

 

Watch the video and reread your suggestions and you’ll realize how meaningless they are, and how much the Ranger itself would be nerfed for pointless pet buffs that would just end up being nerfed down in every other mode of the game. 

 

 

Edited October 24, 2021 by Swagger.1459

[Grand Marshal.4098]

Huh

 

EoD will not shift wvw meta what are you on about guys. Even if Untamed became that class you can have in zergs, well, sorry but other classes do the roles better already. Spike dmg? Berserker can work. Denial with semi support? Dragonhunter. Consistent dmg from mid range? Core Guard. Long range dmg and boon support? Herald. Corrupts from range? Scourge. Denial of boon application? Speelbreaker. Mass CC? Chronomancer.

 

At this point nothing can replace anything. And behold how no elite spec can function in zerg scenarios. SIngle target support thief? Don't make me laugh. Etc. Instead ask for a bruisery smallscale spec. You cannot have a petless spec, giving it up more than Soulbeast. 

[Infusion.7149]

On 10/23/2021 at 7:44 AM, Gorem.8104 said:

Pretty much, I mean how often do you see Core Rangers asked to be in groups 😛 

Imagine playing core Ranger and people begging you to join them cause of your pet. If Untamed doesn't do that... What is the point of it. 

Even if all the changes proposed here are implemented and the pet tracks perfectly nobody is going to ask for rangers with core/druid/untamed. There is no possibility to stealth properly because there isn't stow pet and scrapper is still going to dominate with the new specs. Removing boons / CCing people is meaningless when targets have stab and the boon removal priority isn't ignored (i.e. removing stability/protection specifically as on revenants running Brutality). The cage effect people rave about can be obtained on DH with longbow 5 which is instant and ranged.

If people were making serious suggestions for Untamed it would be the following:
* stow pet on stealth push at any time : see soulbeast's main advantage
* Unleashed has AoE stealth removal similar to Gaze of Darkness (600 radius) / Sight Beyond Sight (600 radius) / Detection Pulse (900 radius) but unblockable , see "Sic Em" : something soulbeast is unable to accomplish currently
* CC attacks that deal extra damage to barriers or remove barriers since hard CC does no damage in WVW/PVP (see Warrior's Cunning) : this is also relevant in PVE for example against a barrier when there is also a breakbar (see Deepstone fractal)
* Targeted boon rip, if you are fighting against heralds that spit out boons every 3s a targeted boon rip to stability/protection is higher value than a boon rip that is 3 deep : also relevant in fractals with No Pain No Gain + Vengeance instabilities but condi is meta and soulbeast has a role.
---> "Stand Your Ground!" is 5 stacks of stability , Hallowed Ground is 8 pulses of stability. Inspiring Reinforcement is 5 pulses of stability. Even Dolyak stance on soulbeast is 6 stacks of stability.

... not these pet-centric changes mentioned in the original post here which suggest the poster has no idea about what makes something squad viable for WVW (key point here, since it is likely going to be usable in small-scale and in teamfight PVP).


Best cut your losses and run stanceshare soulbeast with sword+axe and greatsword in the interim. Even in fractals unless you can make use of 5 target cleave , sword+axe with greatsword or longbow will be preferable everywhere power is used over condition damage and condi soulbeast will be far stronger than Untamed in condi spec due to only hammer having a flip function.

[Xenash.1245]

1 hour ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Huh

 

EoD will not shift wvw meta what are you on about guys. Even if Untamed became that class you can have in zergs, well, sorry but other classes do the roles better already. Spike dmg? Berserker can work. Denial with semi support? Dragonhunter. Consistent dmg from mid range? Core Guard. Long range dmg and boon support? Herald. Corrupts from range? Scourge. Denial of boon application? Speelbreaker. Mass CC? Chronomancer.

 

At this point nothing can replace anything. And behold how no elite spec can function in zerg scenarios. SIngle target support thief? Don't make me laugh. Etc. Instead ask for a bruisery smallscale spec. You cannot have a petless spec, giving it up more than Soulbeast. 

Yeah there's some really questionable balance going on with some specs in the game at the moment and it makes any new spec wanting to jump into the mix rather awkward, unless they're of course equally as questionable. It's like how you can at the new mechanist spec and see how the golem can be used for support, and even think it could do quite well at that given the right circumstances. But since other specs are just stupid when it comes to spamming boons constantly it just makes it seem so sad in comparison.

 

But I dunno, maybe I'm wrong and we'll see things play out differently come the beta/release.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

32 minutes ago, Xenash.1245 said:

Yeah there's some really questionable balance going on with some specs in the game at the moment and it makes any new spec wanting to jump into the mix rather awkward, unless they're of course equally as questionable. It's like how you can at the new mechanist spec and see how the golem can be used for support, and even think it could do quite well at that given the right circumstances. But since other specs are just stupid when it comes to spamming boons constantly it just makes it seem so sad in comparison.

 

But I dunno, maybe I'm wrong and we'll see things play out differently come the beta/release.

I hope as well. I want the meta to change. I'm tired of years of the same thing. Maybe release will be so wildly different that I may actually buy EoD by then. 

[mistsim.2748]

2 hours ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Berserker can work.

You're aware that an Immobeast already does more spike damage than a zerker right? On top of bringing immobilize bombs. A basic hammer combo (based of the power coefficients from the stream) do about 30% more than that. Neither SLB or Zerker are meta (I don't even remember the last time I saw a Zerker in a basic comp) but Untamed will simply murder the Zerker out of existence. Untamed also brings boonstrips on a low CD and more disruption than the OG hammer warrior. Looks to be about the same dps as a DH, but with way more utility. 

As I said already elsewhere, tons of people here who are out of their depth and talking out their bums. I understand it's all good intentions and you want good things for the Untamed. You're not seeing it, you haven't tested it yet, but you're whinging for changes. You baddie bads. At least wait until the beta.

Edited October 24, 2021 by mistsim.2748

[Grand Marshal.4098]

13 minutes ago, mistsim.2748 said:

 Neither SLB or Zerker are meta (I don't even remember the last time I saw a Zerker in a basic comp) but Untamed will simply murder the Zerker out of existence.

 

Untamed also brings boonstrips on a low CD and more disruption than the OG hammer warrior. Looks to be about the same dps as a DH, but with way more utility. 

 

Zerker is very much meta despite it's flaws. Minstrels keep Zerker alive. SLB fails to bring one thing Zerker does to justify it's spot in the squad: Rez capability. It's not so much about Zerker running for spiked dmg. It's about that and the ability to rez people. DPS alove means nothing. The reason Core Guard is a good raw DPS alternative is simply because it can still give something unique as in party stab or AoE reflect.

 

DH is trash in zergs anyway, just brought it up. Untamed looks strong asf don't get me wrong. Far too strong even for smallscale and solo which has me worried. But cannot bring anything unique in a zerg. That's where it fails. DPS doesn't matter if it's dead or cannot do something for it's allies. 

 

That's facts and simple reasoning, no beta is needed to know that one. Now if you are gonna run 10 Untamed in WvW sure be my guest.

[anduriell.6280]

4 hours ago, Swagger.1459 said:

I think your suggestions miss the mark. Not sure where you think nerfing the Ranger, not improving weapon utility, and buffing the pet needlessly when it’s going to hit a target or 2 and die in seconds anyway… is good, but it’s not. 
Watch the video and reread your suggestions and you’ll realize how meaningless they are, 

You have a very good point, I know pets (at least in current iterations) will be very unwhelming in WvW.  If you read my previous suggestions you would see how I’m in the train  of  being  able to make the pet become like a passive banner in some cases. 
 

but we got the pet so I am trying to work with that. I am pretty confident Anet devs will not remake the elite at this point so I am trying  to move forward with what we got.

 

at this point my suggestion are to make the pet to not die in bombs, at least not before the Tamed can swap pets. 
In zergs the damage and utility will come from the tamed that’s clear. This added additional utility with the changes to the spores to heal aoe and cleanses to a lot of a friendlies ( up 30) and the aoe big barrier may find uses. 
the vines cantrip can work to replace the immob soulbeast.

at the end the pets would be put in passive and only to use the AoE unleash Fs. Although the radius will need to be a bit bigger 180 is simply not enough for the Fs effects.

and clearly in current meta the tamed with my changes although will not replace any spot but at least will not be a reason to keep hating on the profession. New pets may bring aoe utilities too.

 

[InspectorCaracal.2970]

On 10/23/2021 at 5:31 AM, anduriell.6280 said:

Untamed does not bring any new pet sustain. If those pets haven't been viable in wvw for 9 years they will not be viable now. If a Druid can not keep them alive with all its healing an untamed will be even more useless. 

Ah, so that's why they nerfed Druid pets.

[anduriell.6280]

25 minutes ago, Inventrix.3158 said:

Ah, so that's why they nerfed Druid pets.

Yes except in this case it wasn't related to WvW but the cries in the pvp forums by players incapable of dealing with the pet mechanic.

Untamed will be fun to watch, the rivers when the pets blink on top of the targets will overflow the forums  contention walls.
Unfortunately in it's current design it will not work for the intended purpouse of taking an spot in wvw zergs. 

Edited October 25, 2021 by anduriell.6280

[kharmin.7683]

Should each and every espec have top viability in each and every mode?

[AlexndrTheGreat.8310]

2 hours ago, kharmin.7683 said:

Should each and every espec have top viability in each and every mode?

Obviously no, but I think WvW zerging was one of the most glaring areas in which Rangers were not great at all. There’s some immob builds, but it is so incredibly niche compared to what builds other classes can provide.

This elite is quite obviously more PvP focused (instanced PvP and Roaming), but Ranger was already great at roaming and had some meta builds in PvP even if it was mostly in a side-noder role. All Untamed does is give another play style in the same game modes we were already fine in instead of letting us do something new.

[anduriell.6280]

21 minutes ago, AlexndrTheGreat.8310 said:

This elite is quite obviously more PvP focused (instanced PvP and Roaming), but Ranger was already great at roaming and had some meta builds in PvP even if it was mostly in a side-noder role. All Untamed does is give another play style in the same game modes we were already fine in instead of letting us do something new.

You read my mind. 

Many of us don't need or want another PvP/raids/roaming specialization.

 

Ranger needs a Zerg/squad/team elite. 

[mistsim.2748]

Fyi, the only e-spec that my squad is even slightly interested in even trying this week is the Untamed. We gvg and zerg bust in t2. 

A bunch of you guys simply don't comprehend the kit you're getting with the Untamed.

Of course, if the damage multipliers are trash on the hammer, then it won't be viable. But if they are good, like in the preview stream, Untamed will be taken for CC, boonrips, and spike damage.

Edited October 25, 2021 by mistsim.2748

[mistsim.2748]

On 10/24/2021 at 2:28 PM, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Zerker is very much meta despite it's flaws

It really, really isn't. A well played Herald almost completely denies its existence. And DH does better spike damage by far.

Edited October 25, 2021 by mistsim.2748

[Grand Marshal.4098]

15 minutes ago, mistsim.2748 said:

It really, really isn't. A well played Herald almost completely denies its existence. And DH does better spike damage by far.

And I tell you, DPS isn't the only factor. Berserker can stay consistently top 3 DPS. What it brings is the battle standard. That explains why it's picked. It's viable, but the banner makes it semi-meta because it's essentially Illusion of Life on a DPS class.

[anduriell.6280]

1 hour ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

And I tell you, DPS isn't the only factor. Berserker can stay consistently top 3 DPS. What it brings is the battle standard. That explains why it's picked. It's viable, but the banner makes it semi-meta because it's essentially Illusion of Life on a DPS class.

That’s why the rework I suggested for the perilous gift cantrip to apply the buff and barrier to friendlies in exchange for the pets Hp would be a very good addition to complement the battle standard and similar utilities.

Allies get ressed by the banner, the Tamed cast the cantrip so they don’t instadie by the concentrated fire (enemy zergs will keep bombing where there are downeds) and other support can heal them while the barrier holds. We are talking about 50% current Hp in barrier, if the tamed don’t stay under fire the pet should keep a enough Hp to provide a nice chunk of barrier. 

i really hope anet reworks the heal cantrip in any case. 

Edited October 25, 2021 by anduriell.6280