What role does the Revenant fill?

[Obtena.7952]

19 minutes ago, Arnox.5128 said:

The issue isn't having options. The issue is when all the options given to a class are equally as good as all the other options given to other classes. Generally speaking, sure, your Ele may be able to do healing, condis, and DPS, but where it should do the best is DPS. The other areas Ele can cover, but it won't do as good as another class specifically built for such, but it can do it.

Again these aren't issues, at least not for the people that embrace the intention of the game. Of course, you can choose to impose whatever artificial limitations as you want on yourself, but that doesn't mean there is a problem Anet has to fix.

[Infusion.7149]

1 hour ago, Arnox.5128 said:

My original question (leaning on the natural assumption that every class does something or things better than any of the other classes) was what thing does Revenant do that all the other classes can't do as well or at all. What I'm getting in response is, "Revenant can do everything," along with, "All classes can do everything generally equally well." That may be true, but if it is true, then that means there's no point to choosing a class anymore, combat wise.

Question,  do you even do instanced content? Are you basing your opinion off metabattle rather than discretize which is actually what people use for fractals? https://discretize.eu/builds

Snowcrows took off their comp page but LN has some , W1-W3:
https://lucky-noobs.com/teamcompositions
VG: power alac ren
Gors: 2x Condi RR
Sab: 6 renegades
Sloth: power alac
Matt: triple condi ren
KC: power alac
Xera: triple condi ren

After exposed changes people don't even look for BS anymore explicitly.

Fractal T4 LFG is always HB + ALAC REN + scourges/DPS.
Raids : HB/quickness scrapper / StM + ALAC REN or condi RR + BS + Druid (or tempest but people want spirits/spotter) + DPS.

If you wrote: revenant can't fulfull pDPS role well (and that would only matter on KC/CA/Adina really) then you'd have a point maybe but that is why Vinidcator needs some help outside openworld where 5 target cleave is beneficial.

Edited November 9, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[idolin.2831]

1 hour ago, Arnox.5128 said:

The issue isn't having options. The issue is when all the options given to a class are equally as good as all the other options given to other classes. Generally speaking, sure, your Ele may be able to do healing, condis, and DPS, but where it should do the best is DPS. The other areas Ele can cover, but it won't do as good as another class specifically built for such, but it can do it.

To be clear, the classes you list mostly each have their own niches. Warriors bring banner, Condi Firebrand can bring quickness, Power Dragonhunter is bursty but falls off in longer fights, Ele excels on large hitboxes, Revs can absolutely delete breakbars, etc. Not to mention the classes' themes are inherently different. I main a Rev, and that's because I like the Energy and Legend Swapping mechanic, and my favorite build is Power Herald, because of the flow between Glint and Shiro. It's been that way since 2018, through updates and patches - I enjoy it for the theme and mechanic. If ANet nerfed the build to the point of being unplayable, that would be a balancing issue - but it being not the meta build doesn't mean too much to me as long as it's still a viable option.

1 hour ago, Arnox.5128 said:

Would you say this is persistent across balance patches then?

Why are you so persistent in chasing what a class does what best? Why is that important, unless you care about min maxing (which I doubt since you pull builds off of MetaBattle and give the impression you've hardly done those contents)? Why are you so worked up about the idea that tomorrow this class won't be the best at this thing anymore? Again, It might be a problem if suddenly the build is no longer viable, but simply not being the best at a specific task isn't the end of the world.

[Arnox.5128]

I honestly can't believe we're arguing FOR classes being almost entirely homogeneous. Again, why even HAVE classes at all at this point if they're all supposed to be the same or even change radically from patch to patch?

If that's what ANet really intended, then why didn't they just do things like Star Wars Galaxies did where everyone just puts points in particular areas that they want to focus on? It's because even though, yes, ANet was trying to buck the holy trinity, they ALSO were still trying to give each class a unique flavor (which INCLUDES them having particular strengths and weaknesses that would be GENERALLY PERSISTENT across patches). Yes, an Elementalist would have some support skills and traits, but a Guardian would still be the best for support.

But if the classes have the same strengths or very similar, or if it changes ALL THE TIME, then the class choice becomes meaningless, or at least, will change radically from almighty patch to almighty patch. This is absurd. It flies RIGHT into the face of the original class design of GW2 (and GW1 as well, but I digress).

You guys keep trying to ask if I'm a min-maxer or whatever. Who cares. That's not the point at ALL. The point is class DIVERSITY that is PERSISTENT across patches. If they're not diverse enough, or if the persistence of the diversity isn't there, then the ENTIRE POINT of choosing your class is GONE. Or how about this. You work on your build and playstyle. You're really proud of it. You love to play it. But oh, WHOOPSIE, ANet put another patch out, and now that build is completely and utterly useless and you have to learn another playstyle all over again.

We're getting none of the benefits of a class system (consistency) and all of the drawbacks (can't change your class).

Edited November 9, 2021 by Arnox.5128

[Arnox.5128]

Here's a GW2 2017 interview with Jason Reynolds.

http://www.mmorpg.com/guild-wars-2/interviews/arenanet-discusses-the-balance-in-tyria-1000012242

"Each class needs to feel thematically and mechanically unique, but they also need to be self-sufficient."

Exactly what I've been banging on about for the past two pages. >_>

Edited November 9, 2021 by Arnox.5128

[Linken.6345]

1 minute ago, Arnox.5128 said:

Here's a GW2 2017 interview with Jason Reynolds.

http://www.mmorpg.com/guild-wars-2/interviews/arenanet-discusses-the-balance-in-tyria-1000012242

"Each class needs to feel thematically and mechanically unique, but they also need to be self-sufficient."

Exactly what I've been banging on about for the past two pages. >_>

Yea and they are atm so whats the problem?

[Arnox.5128]

8 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

Yea and they are atm so whats the problem?

That right there is the problem. V

57 minutes ago, idolin.2831 said:

Why are you so persistent in chasing what a class does what best? Why is that important

-

And here's ANOTHER interview, this time in 2010 with Lead Designer Eric Flannum

https://web.archive.org/web/20100520042042/https://www.arena.net/blog/nine-gw2-follow-up-questions-with-eric-flannum

"Players will be unable to change professions in Guild Wars 2. We’ve designed each profession in the game to be very distinct and different from each other, and many of our game systems take that into account."

Edited November 9, 2021 by Arnox.5128

[idolin.2831]

7 minutes ago, Arnox.5128 said:

That right there is the problem. V

-

And here's ANOTHER interview, this time in 2010 with Lead Designer Eric Flannum

https://web.archive.org/web/20100520042042/https://www.arena.net/blog/nine-gw2-follow-up-questions-with-eric-flannum

"Players will be unable to change professions in Guild Wars 2. We’ve designed each profession in the game to be very distinct and different from each other, and many of our game systems take that into account."

Yes - and they are thematically and mechanically different, again what is your point? You are arguing about a class having to be the absolute best at some certain thing, and that's not what the Lead Designer said at all.

[Arnox.5128]

10 minutes ago, idolin.2831 said:

Yes - and they are thematically and mechanically different, again what is your point? You are arguing about a class having to be the absolute best at some certain thing, and that's not what the Lead Designer said at all.

It doesn't always have to be the "best" at something. Sometimes they can also have tools available to them that other classes don't. For example, nobody has access to illusions and portals but Mesmers. Nobody has access to kits and turrets except Engineer.

Now, coming back to the original question again. What sets Revenants apart from the other classes globally and persistently? What about their mechanics and skill set allow them to do things other classes can't do or at least do as well?

Edited November 9, 2021 by Arnox.5128

[Obtena.7952]

48 minutes ago, Arnox.5128 said:

I honestly can't believe we're arguing FOR classes being almost entirely homogeneous. Again, why even HAVE classes at all at this point if they're all supposed to be the same or even change radically from patch to patch?

Ouch ... what? Classes are changing radically from patch to patch? No, they most certainly aren't. I mean, there are examples where Anet does rework a spec because it doesn't work how they want but there isn't the level of evolution you seem to imply with class changes. 

And again, why have classes? because they offer players all kinds of variety.  I mean, where is this rhetorical questions going here? it should be pretty obvious why we have different classes, EVEN if you don't agree with the reasons we have them. 

Edited November 9, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[idolin.2831]

 

2 minutes ago, Arnox.5128 said:

It doesn't have to be the "best" at something. Sometimes they can also have tools available to them that other classes don't. For example, nobody has access to illusions and portals but Mesmers. Nobody has access to kits and turrets except Engineer.

Now, coming back to the original question again. What sets Revenants apart from the other classes globally and persistently?

An energy system and the legend mechanic.

Edited November 9, 2021 by idolin.2831

[idolin.2831]

For what it's worth, yes there probably have been instances of builds being nerfed to the point where they lost their identities. I can think of Staff Weaver in PvE, which should have been a squishy but high DPS build, considering there are a lot of damage skills on staff and Ele is inherently squishy. These cases however are not common and definitely not a widespread problem, but a problem with Staff Weaver in particular and has been raised many times over.

[Arnox.5128]

3 minutes ago, idolin.2831 said:

 

An energy system and the legend mechanic.

Alright, now we're at least kind of on the same page. The only issue now though is that both of these mechanics are somewhat borrowed from other classes. The energy from Thief and the legends from Engineer. Not completely at all. They have some changes to them. But I guess what I'm trying to say is that the Revenant seems a rather scattershot class. A not very consistent theme and flavor to it, and the role(s) it plays are a little more in question too. That's what I was confused about.

[idolin.2831]

15 minutes ago, Arnox.5128 said:

Alright, now we're at least kind of on the same page. The only issue now though is that both of these mechanics are somewhat borrowed from other classes. The energy from Thief and the legends from Engineer. Not completely at all. They have some changes to them. But I guess what I'm trying to say is that the Revenant seems a rather scattershot class. A not very consistent theme and flavor to it, and the role(s) it plays are a little more in question too. That's what I was confused about.

I don't see any resemblance to Engineer - engineer has tool kits while revenant has actual legends from the world of Tyria, very different theme. Swapping legends is also very mechanically different from using tool kits: Using tool kits only puts them on a 1 second cooldown, where you use the relevant skills and probably swap back to your weapon skills, while with revenant swapping legends is a huge deal depending on your trait setup: It can reset energy to 50 or 75, give you Fury, trigger sigil effects, give you other boons and/or do AoE damage and condis, and remove 1 condition.

Legend swapping therefore is also the main way you gain energy back, which is different from thief's Initiatives system. On revenant you also have to manage cooldowns, which thief's weapon skills don't have. I do agree there are similarities, but the overall themes and mechanics of the two classes are still different, and the two classes are still very much unique in their own rights. 

Because of the above, I would say Legend swapping together with the energy system makes the class unique enough for me. As for the roles, it's true that I can't guarantee Condi Renegade will still be meta forever, or Alac Ren will always be able to bring 10-man alacrity. What I have come to appreciate the class for though, is its mechanics as I've described above, and the versatility the legends bring. 

I do have concerns about the mobility creep EoD might bring to the game, but that won't stop me from playing Power Herald in WvW - the synergy between Glint/Shiro and sword/sword + staff is something I still won't be able to find on other classes. I have enjoyed it since 2018, and new elite specs don't mean that I will stop enjoying it.

Edited November 9, 2021 by idolin.2831

[Ryou.2398]

2 hours ago, Arnox.5128 said:

Alright, now we're at least kind of on the same page. The only issue now though is that both of these mechanics are somewhat borrowed from other classes. The energy from Thief and the legends from Engineer. Not completely at all. They have some changes to them. But I guess what I'm trying to say is that the Revenant seems a rather scattershot class. A not very consistent theme and flavor to it, and the role(s) it plays are a little more in question too. That's what I was confused about.

There is hardly any point in ever interacting with obtena they have been here for years trolling and never getting into trouble, you can never question or criticize the game with this person coming in to mentally abuse you as much as they can to make you look like the issue is you isntead of the game every single time.

[taara.3217]

9 hours ago, idolin.2831 said:

Revenant also has arguably the best solo open world PvE build in Condi Renegade

One of the best, but not the best.

[Cuks.8241]

Well to me rev is fun and unique. Especially with Herald elite and facets.

But it seems you have some concepts about classes in this game which are not entirely correct at least if you look across all game modes. For example mesmer chrono is the common tank in raids. Warrior used to be popular as a defensive cleanser and shout healer in WvW zergs. Engineers are mandatory supports in every WvW zerg with their heals, cleansing, super speed and stealth/smoke fields.

[Moradorin.6217]

On 11/7/2021 at 11:28 PM, Arnox.5128 said:

Sure, every class can fill every role, but each class usually has one or two things that they are better suited for than the other classes. Mesmers are hella slippery. Necros are great at conditions/debuffs. Etc.

Experience would answer your questions best. People are giving you valid responses. Basically, Renegade is mostly used as boon support, However, not the same boons that guard or ranger normally provide to 5 or 10 man comp. Renegade is also a very good condition dps class and can still provide support boons while using a condi or power spec. It also has other utility that benefits teams in things like fractals and raids that can make it the prefered choice over others that could provide the same boons (mostly alac). Renegade can pump out 10 man alacrity, give allot of might and fury to party while also reducing team condi damage by 50% at the same time its doing all the CC for the party and still pulling ok dps numbers all the while. That is what renegade does well. That is why it can be a good carry class. Herald can be amazing for boons, but doesnt provide quickness or alacrity to it gets used less/is more niche. That said, its still one of the best Hand Kites and has other roles it fills wells for the right encounter. Ranger Engi and Guard do other similar things but not the exact same things. Like 5 man comp in fractals you might take guard (fb) to give quickness and heals, a ranger for dps that also provides dps boosts via traits and spirits and a renedage that provides alac a ton of cc and other support goodies the rest pure dps or you could even throw in a scourge to scrape people off the ground when they get downed for a really solid non-redunant comp. Does that help??

[Obtena.7952]

15 hours ago, Arnox.5128 said:

Alright, now we're at least kind of on the same page. The only issue now though is that both of these mechanics are somewhat borrowed from other classes. The energy from Thief and the legends from Engineer. Not completely at all. They have some changes to them. But I guess what I'm trying to say is that the Revenant seems a rather scattershot class. A not very consistent theme and flavor to it, and the role(s) it plays are a little more in question too. That's what I was confused about.

Again, that's not an issue and the fact that these mechanics are 'somewhat borrowed' doesn't have anything to do with the consistency of theme and flavour for it or the roles people play it in. The confusion is that you imposed a relationship between these two non-related ideas.

I mean, there isn't a debate ... there are LOTS of places where Revenant and it's specs are valued, regardless of any changes or similarities it has with other classes. That's what is important. People choosing a class and playing it, enjoying it ... not that it fills a role or that it's unique somehow.

Edited November 9, 2021 by Obtena.7952