What role does the Revenant fill?

[Arnox.5128]

I've been trying to figure this out for a while. Most all of the classes have a clear something they do best or are specialized for. The Revenant though, I don't know.

[Pirogen.9561]

All?

[Arnox.5128]

42 minutes ago, Pirogen.9561 said:

All?

Doesn't the Ranger/Engineer do that?

[Cuks.8241]

In WvW rev is one of the core composition class for organised grops. It provides max range aoe burst with Phase Smash (hammer). Basically when we are talking about range spike, that's rev. Coordinated Phase Smash of several revs that hit the same spot will down enemies. It also has decent general boon support with herald and stability with jalis and plenty tools to be deadly when fights move to melee.

In pvp rev have several dmg builds. From power to condi. Don't know what is the current top meta but I'm quite sure rev is there or close.

In pve rev has plenty possibilities. In both 5 and 10 man an alacrity renegade is the norm boon suport/dps. It has also plenty other viable options from ventari heal support, herald general boon support to just pure dps.

So yes, all roles.

[Arnox.5128]

12 hours ago, Cuks.8241 said:

In WvW rev is one of the core composition class for organised grops. It provides max range aoe burst with Phase Smash (hammer). Basically when we are talking about range spike, that's rev. Coordinated Phase Smash of several revs that hit the same spot will down enemies. It also has decent general boon support with herald and stability with jalis and plenty tools to be deadly when fights move to melee.

In pvp rev have several dmg builds. From power to condi. Don't know what is the current top meta but I'm quite sure rev is there or close.

In pve rev has plenty possibilities. In both 5 and 10 man an alacrity renegade is the norm boon suport/dps. It has also plenty other viable options from ventari heal support, herald general boon support to just pure dps.

So yes, all roles.

So basically, what you're saying is, there's 3 redundant classes.

[Obtena.7952]

This line of question demonstrates a lack of understanding of what the purpose of classes are in this game. If you don't know what Revenant does, then you need to ask YOURSELF what your criteria is for choosing a class in the first place. 

Revenant is simply an option you can choose. If you see no reason to use it, it simply doesn't fit your criteria to play it. 

Edited November 8, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[SeTect.5918]

21 hours ago, Arnox.5128 said:

I've been trying to figure this out for a while. Most all of the classes have a clear something they do best or are specialized for. The Revenant though, I don't know.

So lets say there are 4 basic roles: boon support, healer, power dps and condi dps.

Ofc there is also other stuff like tanking, ranged power or ranged condi and so on. 

But if we just go for the 4 roles i mentioned, Revenant can fill them all. If thats what u meant.

Where Revenant is best in atm is support and condi dps.

Edited November 8, 2021 by SeTect.5918

[Arnox.5128]

1 minute ago, SeTect.5918 said:

if we just go for the 4 roles i mentioned, Revenant can fill them all. If thats what u meant.

Well, that may be true, but if it is true, then that means it crosses over the Ranger and Engineer territories since they're supposed to be the Jack of All Trades classes. Hence why I said there's 3 redundant classes.

Hell, you could even make an argument that the Rev is making those two classes redundant because Revs can fill all the roles and still get to use heavy armor.

[SeTect.5918]

31 minutes ago, Arnox.5128 said:

Well, that may be true, but if it is true, then that means it crosses over the Ranger and Engineer territories since they're supposed to be the Jack of All Trades classes. 

Are they? 

I mean nearly every class can do every role. 

The thing is that no class can provide everything, thats also why you use more than 2 supports in raids. 

Guardian can fit in every role. Mesmer can. Engi can. Thief can with New Eod elite spec. Revenant can. Ranger can. Ele can. Necro can. Warrior has supportish aspects bc of banners. 

They all can do power dps, condi dps and support (boon support, banners, auras, healing, whatever)

Some need to get something specific to be more viable but they all can basically do it. 

Especially because we got now a 3rd elite spec for each class and most players dont want 2 power based elite specs or something like that.

Edited November 8, 2021 by SeTect.5918

[Arnox.5128]

18 minutes ago, SeTect.5918 said:

Are they? 

I mean nearly every class can do every role. 

The thing is that no class can provide everything, thats also why you use more than 2 supports in raids. 

Guardian can fit in every role. Mesmer can. Engi can. Thief can with New Eod elite spec. Revenant can. Ranger can. Ele can. Necro can. Warrior has supportish aspects bc of banners. 

They all can do power dps, condi dps and support (boon support, banners, auras, healing, whatever)

Some need to get something specific to be more viable but they all can basically do it. 

Especially because we got now a 3rd elite spec for each class and most players dont want 2 power based elite specs or something like that.

Sure, every class can fill every role, but each class usually has one or two things that they are better suited for than the other classes. Mesmers are hella slippery. Necros are great at conditions/debuffs. Etc.

Edited November 8, 2021 by Arnox.5128

[SeTect.5918]

5 minutes ago, Arnox.5128 said:

Sure, every class can fill every role, but each class usually has one or two things that they are better suited for than the other classes. Mesmers are hella slippery. Necros are great at conditions/debuffs. Etc.

Ah well, Revenant is on the top of the dps board with condi renegade now while ranger and engi are better with power than power renegade. 

Renegades special support thingie is alac, while of engi its quickness while ranger is mostly focusing on healing and some basic boons like might. 

So while Revenant is good at dealing dps and giving a top tier boon, it doesn't make ranger or engi useless because they do different stuff like other boons or worse boons in exchange of more healing. It also works the other way around that engi and ranger cant make renegade useless because they cant give alac, which is a 25% dmg or healing increase for the whole group.

[Arnox.5128]

9 minutes ago, SeTect.5918 said:

Ah well, Revenant is on the top of the dps board with condi renegade now while ranger and engi are better with power than power renegade. 

Renegades special support thingie is alac, while of engi its quickness while ranger is mostly focusing on healing and some basic boons like might. 

So while Revenant is good at dealing dps and giving a top tier boon, it doesn't make ranger or engi useless because they do different stuff like other boons or worse boons in exchange of more healing. It also works the other way around that engi and ranger cant make renegade useless because they cant give alac, which is a 25% dmg or healing increase for the whole group.

All this discussion is starting to make me think that ANet isn't keeping the classes consistent at ALL in what's supposed to be their intended fields of strength (and weakness). I've talked to a few other players and I'm getting reports that which class is best for what changes every single balance patch. That's no bueno.

Of course, the specifics of HOW each class is good at what they're supposed to be good at can change, but when players pick a class, they should be able to pick one knowing that they have at least a general idea of what's going on with that class, and that that general idea won't change, even if the exact specifics might.

Edited November 8, 2021 by Arnox.5128

[Carcharoth Lucian.1378]

3 hours ago, Arnox.5128 said:

All this discussion is starting to make me think that ANet isn't keeping the classes consistent at ALL

Well, that's the whole point of Elite specializations, to change the ways of playing.

And, if you want the "1 class = 1 role", you're not in the good MMO.

[Obtena.7952]

5 hours ago, Arnox.5128 said:

All this discussion is starting to make me think that ANet isn't keeping the classes consistent at ALL in what's supposed to be their intended fields of strength (and weakness).

That doesn't make much sense, especially since Anet isn't even involved in this discussion. You seem to want your ideas for how the game should work to be validated by what everyone BUT Anet says. I'm going to recommend that if you have a point, you simply make it because the rhetorical line of questions doesn't really work if you don't get the game to begin with. 

Edited November 8, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[idolin.2831]

It is obvious you wrote this post not to seek an answer with the Revenant class but to complain about the game not fitting your ideology of how roles work with the game's classes. And if you keep thinking that each class must absolutely have a well-defined strength that stays true for the course of the game, then you're in for a bad time. That is why when recommending new classes to new players, people almost always recommend mostly on the classes' themes and flavors, and not what the current meta builds are - because at the beginning that's the most important thing, to enjoy the game how you like it first, then worry about meta stuffs later on. 

 

8 hours ago, Arnox.5128 said:

All this discussion is starting to make me think that ANet isn't keeping the classes consistent at ALL in what's supposed to be their intended fields of strength (and weakness). I've talked to a few other players and I'm getting reports that which class is best for what changes every single balance patch. That's no bueno.

 

You don't have to play the best class - that's the thing. It sounds to me like you're not even at the point where you have to worry about min maxing yet, and yet you're worrying about what you're playing now might not be the best for a given task tomorrow. You can absolutely bring a viable build you're good at into fractal/raids and succeed if you know what you're doing - better than chasing meta builds all day long without being good at any of them. People have been using Power Reaper for god knows how long, and it still works, and it's very easy to learn and not hart to master. 

 

I also have no idea how you come to the conclusion that Ranger/Engineer is redundant. Heal Druid is very much in demand, Power Soulbeast is still a good DPS class, Power Holo is also simple and very affective, Quickness Scrapper is also very much viable. Having many choices for a given role is a good thing and a healthy thing for the game - I'd much rather have that than having just a single class/build for a role and there's no option for diversity.

 

 

[Arnox.5128]

10 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That doesn't make much sense, especially since Anet isn't even involved in this discussion. You seem to want your ideas for how the game should work to be validated by what everyone BUT Anet says. I'm going to recommend that if you have a point, you simply make it because the rhetorical line of questions doesn't really work if you don't get the game to begin with. 

 

7 hours ago, idolin.2831 said:

It is obvious you wrote this post not to seek an answer with the Revenant class but to complain about the game not fitting your ideology of how roles work with the game's classes.

Holy hell. Calm down, people. Your game is safe from the evil Arnox.

No, that was NOT my intention. If I wanted to rag on ANet's class design in the first place, I WOULD HAVE JUST MADE A TOPIC DOING SO, not asking questions. Chill the f*** out.

With that out of the way,

7 hours ago, idolin.2831 said:

That is why when recommending new classes to new players, people almost always recommend mostly on the classes' themes and flavors, and not what the current meta builds are

A class's general strengths and weaknesses feed DIRECTLY into its themes and flavor. You can't just ignore that and say I'm being mean. And especially in such a combat-heavy game. How that class does in specific combat roles is pretty much impossible to ignore. And if the classes can all pull the exact same duties equally well or at least well enough to not make a real difference between classes, then that diversity is gone and there's little point to picking a class besides what color you want your skills to be in.

You know what? Let's go on metabattle.com and look at some classes in just Fractals and Dungeons. For Elementalist, we got a meta-tier Power DPS build. For Ranger, we got a meta-tier Power DPS build. For Guardian, we got a meta-tier Power DPS build. For Engineer, we got a meta-tier Power DPS build. For Thief and Warrior, we got a great-tier Power DPS build, although admittedly, those haven't been marked meta for whatever reason. So we got 6 of 9 classes that can run great and meta tier power DPS in PvE. I mean, c'mon guys... >_>

Edited November 8, 2021 by Arnox.5128

[Infusion.7149]

This has to be a troll thread right?
Guardian and revenant are currently relevant in every game mode.

For PVE in particular it fills the alacrity and CDPS role. Since CDPS is meta everywhere due to exposed changes (since you mention fractals and dungeons if you think pDPS is meta you are clearly out of date) except for a few raids bosses (where you typically would be alacrity anyway) there isn't a legitimate complaint.

If you just want to be pDPS then maybe the vindicator will step up but currently it is underperforming with full boons.

Edited November 9, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Arnox.5128]

16 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

you mention fractals and dungeons if you think pDPS is meta you are clearly out of date

This is STRAIGHT from metabattle. If you think they're wrong, take it up with them. What I listed for Fractals and Dungeons is exactly what is displayed.

Edited November 9, 2021 by Arnox.5128

[Obtena.7952]

46 minutes ago, Arnox.5128 said:

You know what? Let's go on metabattle.com and look at some classes in just Fractals and Dungeons. For Elementalist, we got a meta-tier Power DPS build. For Ranger, we got a meta-tier Power DPS build. For Guardian, we got a meta-tier Power DPS build. For Engineer, we got a meta-tier Power DPS build. For Thief and Warrior, we got a great-tier Power DPS build, although admittedly, those haven't been marked meta for whatever reason. So we got 6 of 9 classes that can run great and meta tier power DPS in PvE. I mean, c'mon guys... >_>

Again, what is the point you are trying to make with the thread? If you don't see a role for Revenant in content, then don't use it ... but that isn't actually the question you wanted an answer to in the first place is it ...

If you think Revenant should have a 'pDPS role' ... nothing stops you from playing a 'pDPS' build to do that. Not being meta doesn't matter. It doesn't need to be. 

Edited November 9, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Arnox.5128]

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Again, what is the point you are trying to make with the thread? If you don't see a role for Revenant in content, then don't use it ... but that doesn't seem to be the implication of your question in the first place? 

If you think Revenant should have a 'pDPS role' ... nothing stops you from playing a 'pDPS' build to do that. 

My original question (leaning on the natural assumption that every class does something or things better than any of the other classes) was what thing does Revenant do that all the other classes can't do as well or at all. What I'm getting in response is, "Revenant can do everything," along with, "All classes can do everything generally equally well." That may be true, but if it is true, then that means there's no point to choosing a class anymore, combat wise.

Edited November 9, 2021 by Arnox.5128

[Linken.6345]

3 minutes ago, Arnox.5128 said:

My original question (leaning on the natural assumption that every class does something or things better than any of the other classes) was what thing does Revenant do that all the other classes can't do as well or at all. What I'm getting in response is, "Revenant can do everything," along with, "All classes can do everything generally equally well." That may be true, but if it is true, then that means there's no point to choosing a class anymore, combat wise.

What revenants do that all the other classes cant they buff alacrity in group/squad content.

[idolin.2831]

45 minutes ago, Arnox.5128 said:

You know what? Let's go on metabattle.com and look at some classes in just Fractals and Dungeons. For Elementalist, we got a meta-tier Power DPS build. For Ranger, we got a meta-tier Power DPS build. For Guardian, we got a meta-tier Power DPS build. For Engineer, we got a meta-tier Power DPS build. For Thief and Warrior, we got a great-tier Power DPS build, although admittedly, those haven't been marked meta for whatever reason. So we got 6 of 9 classes that can run great and meta tier power DPS in PvE. I mean, c'mon guys... >_>

And what is wrong with that? What's wrong with having options? I'm glad that we have these options, because I dislike the themes of Guardian, Thief, or Warrior, and I'm bored of playing Elementalist. So I'm glad I'm having a blast on Holosmith right now and it's something I've never thought of before, because I have just started playing Holosmith recently and found out how fun Photon Forge is, and I'm glad that there is a viable build for it. I also like the theme of Longbow/Greatsword Soulbeast, and I'm not a fan of pets, so one day I might be able to try that out too, knowing that there's a viable build for end game content. And what if all of those options are still somewhat too complicated for some people? Well there's still Power Reaper which has a low skill floor, Kitless Holo which is easier than the meta Holo build, and etc.

I am glad that we have options, and it is healthy for the game. This is probably the only post I've seen that complains about the game's build diversity.

[Obtena.7952]

6 minutes ago, Arnox.5128 said:

My original question (leaning on the natural assumption that every class does something or things better than any of the other classes) was what thing does Revenant do that all the other classes can't do as well or at all. What I'm getting in response is, "Revenant can do everything," along with "All classes can do everything generally equally well."

That doesn't seem like a natural assumption at all. It feels more like trying to pigeonhole GW2 as 'just another MMO that should be doing it like everyone else' . The fact is that Anet has purposefully avoided hardcoded roles for classes from day 1 to let people play how they want with whatever gameplay style is available from the class pool. 

Again, choosing a class in this game doesn't have to be about filling a role and that's why it's awesome. I mean, if you INSIST on thinking that way, I guess you can, but then you start wondering why a whole bunch of other things in the game don't make sense to you either. 

 

Edited November 9, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[idolin.2831]

5 minutes ago, Arnox.5128 said:

My original question (leaning on the natural assumption that every class does something or things better than any of the other classes) was what thing does Revenant do that all the other classes can't do as well or at all. What I'm getting in response is, "Revenant can do everything," along with, "All classes can do everything generally equally well." That may be true, but if it is true, then that means there's no point to choosing a class anymore, combat wise.

To answer the original question directly, Revenant can provide permanent 10-man Alacrity. Revenant also has arguably the best solo open world PvE build in Condi Renegade with very high DPS and best in game sustain (Battle Scars + Runes of Tormenting). It also has the meta ranged DPS build in WvW Zerging with Power Herald.

[Arnox.5128]

36 minutes ago, idolin.2831 said:

And what is wrong with that? What's wrong with having options? I'm glad that we have these options, because I dislike the themes of Guardian, Thief, or Warrior, and I'm bored of playing Elementalist. So I'm glad I'm having a blast on Holosmith right now and it's something I've never thought of before, because I have just started playing Holosmith recently and found out how fun Photon Forge is, and I'm glad that there is a viable build for it. I also like the theme of Longbow/Greatsword Soulbeast, and I'm not a fan of pets, so one day I might be able to try that out too, knowing that there's a viable build for end game content. And what if all of those options are still somewhat too complicated for some people? Well there's still Power Reaper which has a low skill floor, Kitless Holo which is easier than the meta Holo build, and etc.

I am glad that we have options, and it is healthy for the game. This is probably the only post I've seen that complains about the game's build diversity.

The issue isn't having options. The issue is when all the options given to a class are equally as good as all the other options given to other classes. Generally speaking, sure, your Ele may be able to do healing, condis, and DPS, but where it should do the best is DPS. The other areas Ele can cover, but it won't do as good as another class specifically built for such, but it can do it.

33 minutes ago, idolin.2831 said:

To answer the original question directly, Revenant can provide permanent 10-man Alacrity. Revenant also has arguably the best solo open world PvE build in Condi Renegade with very high DPS and best in game sustain (Battle Scars + Runes of Tormenting). It also has the meta ranged DPS build in WvW Zerging with Power Herald.

Would you say this is persistent across balance patches then?

Edited November 9, 2021 by Arnox.5128