Willbender Beta 4 Updates

[Puck.3697]

So are these changes actually looking like its going to make willbender good at any form of content? 

Or are these changes effectively mute in the grand schemes of things? 

[Arken.3725]

2 hours ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

Urgh, the more I think about the change to Vanguard Tactics, the more annoyed I am by it.

Having a window of 3 seconds after porting where you can unload damage made perfect sense for an in-and-out roamer type. 

Having resolution, -33% condition damage, makes absolutely no sense for an in-and-out roamer. -33% condition damage is a buff that matters for a bunker, but this spec is quite clearly not meant to be a bunker.

That's the point. The redundant resolution was not only useless, but a downright nerf to this supposed mobile spec. 

 

I'm not kidding when I say it needs to be reverted. The rest of the changes were in a decent direction except that one. 

[Arken.3725]

2 hours ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

Urgh, the more I think about the change to Vanguard Tactics, the more annoyed I am by it.

Having a window of 3 seconds after porting where you can unload damage made perfect sense for an in-and-out roamer type. 

Having resolution, -33% condition damage, makes absolutely no sense for an in-and-out roamer. -33% condition damage is a buff that matters for a bunker, but this spec is quite clearly not meant to be a bunker.

That's the point. The redundant resolution was not only useless, but a downright nerf to this supposed mobile spec. 

 

I'm not kidding when I say it needs to be reverted. The rest of the changes were in a decent direction except that one. 

[Puck.3697]

3 hours ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

Urgh, the more I think about the change to Vanguard Tactics, the more annoyed I am by it.

Having a window of 3 seconds after porting where you can unload damage made perfect sense for an in-and-out roamer type. 

Having resolution, -33% condition damage, makes absolutely no sense for an in-and-out roamer. -33% condition damage is a buff that matters for a bunker, but this spec is quite clearly not meant to be a bunker.

I dont rly get why they felt the need to change it...

Edited November 26, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Sonork.2916]

WB still feels like we're still using the same damage/kill moves that we have been using for the last 9 years.  I would have loved to see new mechanics for the elite, or new ways to go about attacking enemies.  Sure we can get to opponents better, but we're just using the same stuff we're already using to kill them.  WB doesn't bring anything new mechanic wise, that guardian doesn't already do.

[Kuya.6495]

I appreciate the changes to make the spec less clunky and to add aoe alacrity for some sort of group support (other profession mains are already salty about guard getting yet another valuable boon to share), but the impression i got about this spec was that it was mostly designed around pvp and i feel the mobility aspect of this hasn't been addressed yet. The range on the ports and dashes still feel too short in my opinion, but we'll see next week.

[Monarc.9726]

21 hours ago, Sonork.2916 said:

They need to change WB flames to pulse around the guardian instead of yet more static aoe ground effects.  Both the justice and resolve WB flames are so completely worthless in any sort of pvp mode.   No one is going to stand in WB flames, they still may as well not exist.   

WB needs a way to keep enemies from just running away.  A 1 second immob on the off-hand sword is not enough, and it's literally the only soft cc skill WB adds to guardian.  The physical skills that hard cc are too bad to be used over the normal defensive guard skills which we always need to slot just to function at all.

WB has no new forms of quickness, which is very relevant to apply damage.

WB has no new skills that provide stab, so were just using the same old courage/SYG.

For a class that's about speed WB has no access to superspeed, and now no decent access to resistance, even a few seconds on some of the new skills/traits would go a long way.

This exactly. Thank you.

[Arken.3725]

On 11/25/2021 at 1:13 PM, Sonork.2916 said:

They need to change WB flames to pulse around the guardian instead of yet more static aoe ground effects.  Both the justice and resolve WB flames are so completely worthless in any sort of pvp mode.   No one is going to stand in WB flames, they still may as well not exist.   

WB needs a way to keep enemies from just running away.  A 1 second immob on the off-hand sword is not enough, and it's literally the only soft cc skill WB adds to guardian.  The physical skills that hard cc are too bad to be used over the normal defensive guard skills which we always need to slot just to function at all.

WB has no new forms of quickness, which is very relevant to apply damage.

WB has no new skills that provide stab, so were just using the same old courage/SYG.

For a class that's about speed WB has no access to superspeed, and now no decent access to resistance, even a few seconds on some of the new skills/traits would go a long way.

That's exactly what it was before. A few seconds on shadowstepping is exactly what you're referring to. 

 

And even with that, it was so severely underperforming. And now, it'll function worse with the near-removal of resistance in favor of the over abundance of resolution. 

 

I understand we haven't played in the beta yet but mostly what we got was number adjustments and the removal of an important boon. 

 

Not to mention we got ZERO bug fixes. What about reversal of fortune?  Is this heal-skill still buggy?

[otto.5684]

1 hour ago, Arken.3725 said:

That's exactly what it was before. A few seconds on shadowstepping is exactly what you're referring to. 

 

And even with that, it was so severely underperforming. And now, it'll function worse with the near-removal of resistance in favor of the over abundance of resolution. 

 

I understand we haven't played in the beta yet but mostly what we got was number adjustments and the removal of an important boon. 

 

Not to mention we got ZERO bug fixes. What about reversal of fortune?  Is this heal-skill still buggy?

I have a bit of different opinion. I do not think resistance matters much. Not that it is not useful, but unless the enemy is blind, there is no way to fully execute, even if you are not crippled or chilled. And more likely than not, you will be hard CCed, considering the over abundance of CC and lack of stability. And the melee CCs WB has are crap. Not to mention that running mediations will be a must, unless you want to die instantly.
The most closely related build is power herald. Herald main damage skill, OH sword 4, is 450 range. Sword 3 has about 400 range and sword 2 has a bit of range as well. WB is going to jump in and do what? Sword 4 will not likely to connect, as it is melee (and that is assuming Anet fixed its animation). GL if you are trying to hit with GS. In addition, Herald has 2 aoe CCs that also can be cast from range. Close range, but still.

The way I look at it, we lost something, that could have been useful a bit useful, but wont make WB remotely viable in PvP. And we got something that would be useful in many PvE situations, if there are is no boon support.

As guardian is currently designed, there is no way to play any power build, except trapper DH in PvP. Unless WB line allows us to drop valor, it is never going to work. And honestly, so far I am seeing radiance, core virtues and shield or focus much better than WB in PvP.

I am not saying feedback does not matter. However, what is needed is miles from where we are at. 

[Arken.3725]

You'd be surprised how strong resistance was at allowing you to maintain distance and avoid the weakness/blind spam from enemies @otto.5684.  Having the ability to mitigate ALL of that(plus soft-cc) while porting in for damage was HUGE.  

 

You'll see in a few days how right I am and how much that one boon meant to the usefulness of wb's ability to maintain in melee, even if it performed poorly.  It's going to perform worse now because you'll do less damage(taking valor) and will now have to deal with all of that debilitating condition spam with only a bit more cleanse.  

[Darknicrofia.2604]

I just realized they didn't even address the janky heal skill in the list of changes lol.

[Hogwarts Zebra.8597]

On 11/25/2021 at 7:32 PM, Arken.3725 said:

That's the point. The redundant resolution was not only useless, but a downright nerf to this supposed mobile spec. 

 

I'm not kidding when I say it needs to be reverted. The rest of the changes were in a decent direction except that one. 

I beg to differ. The resolution is not redundant, because radiance alone is not enough to give reliable resolution uptime. This change allows you to take radiance without being forced to also take virtues or zeal, thus allowing you to run radiance/valor/willbender which would've been infeasible previously. 

[Brian.5324]

Anet is sort of forcing dual swords due to theming, but I wonder if scepter/sword is the way to go for PvP, especially with the Executioner’s Calling (EC) changes. You can stack the scepter immob and with OH sword immob to land big symbol/EC damage stacks while the opponent can’t dodge, yielding good power damage and lots of multi-hit for burning procs.

[Hogwarts Zebra.8597]

Just now, Brian.5324 said:

Anet is sort of forcing dual swords due to theming, but I wonder if scepter/sword is the way to go for PvP, especially with the Executioner’s Calling (EC) changes. You can stack the scepter immob and with OH sword immob to land big symbol/EC damage stacks while the opponent can’t dodge, yielding good power damage and lots of multi-hit for burning procs.

That's actually exactly what I did in the first beta lol, I ran scepter/sword + GS. Gameplay was just bait dodge-->scepter3+2-->sword5-->GS2, and they're immobed the entire time. 

 

After the vanguard tactics change though I think mainhand sword might be better simply for the extra resolution uptime

[Arken.3725]

2 hours ago, Hogwarts Zebra.8597 said:

I beg to differ. The resolution is not redundant, because radiance alone is not enough to give reliable resolution uptime. This change allows you to take radiance without being forced to also take virtues or zeal, thus allowing you to run radiance/valor/willbender which would've been infeasible previously. 

It's not just about resolution but damage. Everyone understands that you need to take as many modifiers as possible to do damage. Valor offers no damage at all. 

 

Not to mention you lose an extra stun break and stability that you won't slot because you don't have space. 

 

Valor/rad/wb will do less damage and only have a little more condition clear(smiters boon) than virtues with no added damage. It's a net loss. 

[aelska.4609]

As expected, these changes do not address the design flaws willbender has. 

 

Mobility suggests it should be good for small scale fights, but new virtues tell that they would be more powerful if they could hit more, i.e., more ennemies. But willbender has no defensive options to survive a teamfight.

More hits also suggest fast hitting weapons, but guards have none of that: scepter #2 is a symbol and will never fully hit (remember anet, it used to be a fast hitting attack but you changed it), sword #3 is a rooting mono-target attack, gs #2 is a semi-rooting attack that only fully hits if enemy is afk, etc. New offhand sword offer no fast hitting skill..

Then there is also that: if you succeed to many-hit someone, then you will probably not need to get the wonderful virtues effects, unless playing burn. But if you play burn, then you would probably not use your F1 at all. 

 

And, meanwhile, I am still asking myself: why is there no pull, taunt or cripple/immob/chill on  this new elite ? Why are symbols still static (i.e., one skill by main-hand weapon!) when you want to prone mobility ?

Edited November 27, 2021 by aelska.4609

[quaniesan.8497]

I don't see why I should use WB's healing skill over Shelter.  

[otto.5684]

15 hours ago, Hogwarts Zebra.8597 said:

I beg to differ. The resolution is not redundant, because radiance alone is not enough to give reliable resolution uptime. This change allows you to take radiance without being forced to also take virtues or zeal, thus allowing you to run radiance/valor/willbender which would've been infeasible previously. 

I dunno how viable WB/radiance/valor would be. Without virtues, WB loses the only useful source of stability. And the virtues are central to WB. I do not see much reason to run WB over radiance or virtues. Most assassin archtype specs tend to have tools to play hit an run. WB has very limited ability to run, and the burst isn’t great either. Might as well run core for the additional survivability. 

I am not seeing any resolution to this. In PvP, No matter how you dice it, WB feels like homeless man herald.

Edited November 28, 2021 by otto.5684

[Puck.3697]

4 hours ago, otto.5684 said:

I dunno how viable WB/radiance/valor would be. Without virtues, WB loses the only useful source of stability. And the virtues are central to WB. I do not see much reason to run WB over radiance or virtues. Most assassin archtype specs tend to have tools to play hit an run. WB has very limited ability to run, and the burst isn’t great either. Might as well run core for the additional survivability. 

I am not seeing any resolution to this. In PvP, No matter how you dice it, WB feels like homeless man herald.

Tbh agreed. I can't see how theyre gonna make WB work at all... Without some serious fundamental changes. 

I dunno if they're intending WB to be a new PvE DPS or something but it would seem guard will remain a support for another 4 years by the looks of things lol. 

[Barraind.7324]

On 11/25/2021 at 2:16 AM, anbujackson.9564 said:

You forgot the group alacrity generation. Why?

Not only did everyone just assume it was a bug that it wasnt working in the first beta pass, given the description, in full diviner it doesn't hit even close to 100% uptime under perfect conditions, AND only hits 5 targets.

 

 

Its like giving renegade a 3 second 3-person quickness on citadel bombardment (through the Vindication trait) and being like "oh man, you have quickness now!"

 

 

Edited November 29, 2021 by Barraind.7324

[Puck.3697]

1 hour ago, Barraind.7324 said:

Not only did everyone just assume it was a bug that it wasnt working in the first beta pass, given the description, in full diviner it doesn't hit even close to 100% uptime under perfect conditions, AND only hits 5 targets.

 

 

Its like giving renegade a 3 second 3-person quickness on citadel bombardment (through the Vindication trait) and being like "oh man, you have quickness now!"

the issue is. the "illusion" Is working.

Anets strategy likely here is very Simple. they've launched a Design which directly clashs with the Proffession Design and its too late to go completely back to the drawing board or to Rework Core guardian to make this Specc work (I.e the backloaded damage) With too many risks to making other speccs such as DH Overpowered.

so they've Thrown a Strong Utility skill at the proffession which will make people screech "OMFG IT GONNA BE META AF ALACRITY OOOOOO" and Ignore the fact this Speccs Dead in 2/3 Game modes on release and Inferior to other Alacrity providers in PvE. but people will Scream how great this is on the back of alacrities existance.

[Khang Xithyl.1742]

They should just normalize Vanguard Tactics to provide 2 seconds of all 3 boons on a shadowstep, and make the dashes shadowsteps instead. Instead of these dashes that are probably not gonna work half the time.

 

Literally all the skills are just take from other classes and worsen to make it have some type of kung-fu fist punch feel. They literally looked at Revenant offhand sword and were like this is a template. Cut the range on the sword 4 moved the immob to sword 5 and were like lets go. If five fist teleport was just a shadowstep like what the thief has that gave quickness offhand sword might be work able. Without quickness I do not think the weapon will ever even work. Like revenant literally uses phase traversal and gets all the offensive support it needs through the two unblockable attacks, gap closer and quickness to let it land skills. 

Edited November 29, 2021 by Khang Xithyl.1742

[Puck.3697]

6 hours ago, Khang Xithyl.1742 said:

Like revenant literally uses phase traversal and gets all the offensive support it needs through the two unblockable attacks, gap closer and quickness to let it land skills. 

Tbh i think Willbenders Purpose in GW2 is to promote Playing Revenant.

its basically "heres a Taste of a Weaker form of it.. now feel free to go play the real thing!"

They looked at the Guardian v Revenant Popularity on GW2Efficency and thats the true thing they're attempting to balance here 😄

Edited November 29, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[otto.5684]

14 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Tbh i think Willbenders Purpose in GW2 is to promote Playing Revenant.

its basically "heres a Taste of a Weaker form of it.. now feel free to go play the real thing!"

They looked at the Guardian v Revenant Popularity on GW2Efficency and thats the true thing they're attempting to balance here 😄

I know. WB has to use half of their kit to do something rev can do with 1 button. Honestly, I think whoever designed WB never played rev or thief before. I sometimes doubt they even know they exist…

[Neva Eilhart.5347]

How exactly do these changes affect the way the virtues proc ? The major clunkiness of WB comes from the fact that unless you have enemies standing still in your flames + some access to Quickness or field aoes, your virtues won't proc nearly enough to be relevant and provide you with enough sustain.

 

You'll hit like a wet noodle if you're fighting a mobile single enemy (which sounds like, on paper, what should be WB best case for a fight) and you'll be godlike when fighting in zergs with enemies standing in your virtues proc'ing everything all the time and showering you with perma aegis/heals/alacrity/whatever fancy boon you wish.

 

What needs to be looked into in top priority is the way our virtues trigger, and then mobility and quality of life changes can be brought in once the core mechanics are done properly. Not the other way around.

 

Edited November 30, 2021 by Neva Eilhart.5347