Virtuoso Beta 4 Feedback after 5+ hours

[The Specimen.8973]

After playtesting the Beta 4 Virtuoso for over 5 hours now, this the feedback I have up to now and I doubt it'll change over the course of the next few days.

(To make this feedback somewhat shorter I have tried to only include what and how skills/traits should be improved following Beta 4)

1. Condition Traitline:

The large majority of mesmers (and non-mesmers) on the forums agree that the Condition Traitline doesn't make sense for an eSpec that is clearly a power dps spec (Mirage was the Condi eSpec!) and should be replaced with some form of utility traitline:

• Personal Utility traitline, such as: increased mobility, sustain, stability, improved dagger/psionics. Traits that will help the Virtuoso fulfil being a ranged power dps with the ability to stay at long range.

• Group Utility traitline, such as: stability for allies (leaning into a Mind Palace concept that Psionics evoke), a unique buff for allies similar to Spotter on Rangers (Increased Ferocity???). This could lessen the sheer selfish dps nature of the spec that could make Virtuoso undesired in end game content.

2. Bladesongs:

(THESE ARE THE MOST IMPORTANT SUGGESTIONS I HAVE)

• Virtuoso should innately have unblockable projectiles when further than 600 range from their targets - Virtuoso would now be a far more viable ranged dps, while still retaining the ability to be effectively countered by enemies when they're within 600 range of the Virtuoso (and with how much mobility is on all of the classes, this shouldn't be absurdly difficult).

• Bladesongs need to be able to be fired when not facing your target - being locked into facing our enemy is restrictive and reduces our ability to effectively kite and keep our distance from enemies while still engaging in combat.

• Cast times should be ¼sec or ½sec

• Projectile speeds need to be significantly quicker

• Bladesong Harmony and Bladesong Sorrow should both have an identical CD of 5 seconds so that the Virtuoso is actually able to shatter more - more blade generation doesn't mean more shatters if they're all always on cooldown due to having the same CDs as the other mesmer specs.

• Bladesong Sorrow should be a ground target aoe power shatter (changed to ground target just like what you've done to elixirs for Harbinger), basically a smaller/weaker Rain of Swords - this makes the shatter unique for Virtuoso.

• Bladesong Dissonance should be a stun not a daze as it has the drawbacks of having a cast time and being a slow projectile (meaning more likely to be interrupted) unlike the instantaneous f3 of core mesmer. A hard stun could make up for those drawbacks.

• Bladeturn Requiem is so weak and is a complete downgrade compared to the Core F4, Distortion. This shouldn't be a shatter skill that expends blades, and should instead be compeletly replaced by Blade Renewal - this would give back the sustain of distortion, while also giving us the priority resource, Blades. A lot of mesmers on the forums have explicitly stated how Blade Renewal should be a fundamental class mechanic for the Virtuoso and therefore should really be the F4 (or a new F5 which would be very unique for mesmer!).

3. Dagger:

• Dagger 2 (Bladecall) is a close range shotgun skill that is contradictory to the ranged nature of Virtuoso, this should at the very least also be a disengage skill that allows Virtuoso's to create distance so that they can be a successful ranged dps. Personally, I'd love to see a 300-600 range teleport/dash backwards (similar to Phase Retreat on Staff) when you use Bladecall. Maybe even consider making Bladecall a 2 charge ammo skill.

• Dagger 2's damage is unreliable as to get full value you need to be essentially within the hitbox of your target so that all projectiles hit - this for a 1200 ranged dps is not ideal.

• Dagger 3 (Bladestorm) shouldn't be a projectile-shooting projectile (the whole Bladestorm gets swallowed and blocked by any form of projectile hate), but instead should be a ground target aoe that inflicts cripple/blindness - more control over the skill and helps Virtuoso's to keep their enemies at a distance.

• Offhand Dagger for even more utility and class identity was a missed opportunity for an eSpec that is a master of blades - especially since Mesmers are now the only class to not get a two-handed weapon (5 new skills) in any expansion.

4. Psionics:

Twin Blade Restoration:
• Needs to be able to be used no matter which direction you're facing - otherwise the ability cancels when you're not looking at your target which is terrible for a Heal skill.

• Needs to provide more healing and condition cleanse instead of the boons - Virtuoso has near to no condition cleanse on its kit (making us reliant on Core skills); so more cleanse, the better.

Blade Renewal:
• Should either be a new F5 class mechanic (Blade Renewal, genuinely, seems like it should be a part of the Virtuoso's class mechanics), or be the F4 instead of Bladeturn Requiem - again, a lot of mesmers are saying this!

New Psionic Utility if Blade Renewal becomes the new F4/F5:
• Could be a hard CC like the Float condition to lean into that telekinetic concept for Virtuoso (Called Telekinetic Grip)

• Could be a 2-part, flip skill dancing dash (dashes you up to 600 range in the direction you're moving) that cripples nearby enemies with psionic blades to provide mobility (Called Cutting Performance, flips to Encore Performance for second non-crippling dash)

Psychic Force:
• The patch notes said that the CD was being lowered to 40 seconds but I can confirm it has not (its still 45 secs), but even still I do believe it's too long for a stun-break, I'd suggest 35 seconds for the CD.

Rain of Swords:
• Should inflict cripple

Sword of Decimation:
• "Sword" implies one so I think the animation should be changed to one giant Blade falling - this would make it more distinguishable when compared to Rain of Swords.

• In all honesty, this skill could be removed and the CC added to Rain of Swords and I think most people would be happy with that change.

Thousand Cuts:
• The only way I can think of to fix this Elite is to make the projectiles lock on and track nearby targets because even NPC enemies just walk straight out of it like it was nothing. Projectile tracking would make Thousand Cuts actually usable in a PvP environment. If you did this, maybe remove the unblockable but up the damage back to what it was in Beta 1. While talking to Kroof and the others in her discord, a potential fix for Thousand Cuts could be the cooldown being reduced by ½ second for each blade you expend in a successful Bladesong shatter - this would add blade/shatter synergy as well as making Thousand Cuts more forgiving when enemies walk out of its damage area, as you will get the skill recharged quicker when you shatter.

• Otherwise, I'd completely replace Thousand Cuts with an elite skill such as "Bladedance" which would be similar to a kit where you'd get 5 new skills that are each a different dance move animation and each deal damage or give boons - Mesmers still haven't received a complete set of 5 new skills from an expansion compared to every other spec.

5. Traits:

(I've said what needs to be said on the Condi Traitline)

Personally, the theme for each traitline shouldn't have been:
- Top = Close Quarter Combat
- Middle = Power
- Bottom = Condi

It should be:
- Top = Close Quarter Combat
- Middle = Mid-Long Range Combat
- Bottom = Personal/Group Utility

• With the Unblockable Bladesongs  beyond 600 range change that I've talked about, I feel that the current top traitline that all synergise together via blocks/dodges could, successfully, be the traitline for those who like to be in close combat and want the extra defence and access to unblockable when within 600 range.

• (IMPORTANT) Mental Focus should DEFINITELY be changed to you gain 10% increased strike damage against enemies that are FURTHER than 600 range from you - make this the ranged dps spec that it's obviously supposed to be because forcing you into close range is so dejected from the clearly ranged concept of the Virtuoso, not to mention Virtuoso is so much more squishy without clones to draw fire for example..

• I like the new Deadly Blades a lot, really leans into the shatter focus of the spec.

• Phantasmal Blades feels very underwhelming especially since the damage is based upon the phantasm stats (instead of our personal stats) so in pvp/wvw it feels extra weak. Maybe this would be better as glyph turret (Similar visual to Thousand Cuts' glyph) that stays for 3-5 seconds and fires several blades at the target instead - this would provide a bit more oomph to a currently mediocre and undesirable trait, while also providing some great visual class identity.

 

Would love to hear what other mesmers' particularly agree or disagree on with current Virtuoso!

[Downstate.4697]

So you want bladesongs to be faster while also being able to shoot them from behind? Sounds too much for pvp. The bladesong harmony+pistol combo already 1 shots someone with no stunbreaks. Id rather virtuoso get more mobiliry so they can turn and burst more effectively. 

[mortrialus.3062]

1 hour ago, FrownyClown.8402 said:

So you want bladesongs to be faster while also being able to shoot them from behind? Sounds too much for pvp. The bladesong harmony+pistol combo already 1 shots someone with no stunbreaks. Id rather virtuoso get more mobiliry so they can turn and burst more effectively. 

Bladesong Harmony and Pistol are hit for 7k and 3k on a berserker amulet with power traits.  The only thing you're one shotting are Elementalists also on berserker amulet. 

[otto.5684]

PvE here. Yes, the condition trait make no sense. Dagger has no condi damage. And the entire condi mesmer setup does not work without mirage. Pistol, staff and scepter do not deal enough damage on their own. These traits should be gutted in favor of mobility traits. 
 

In addition, since Virtuso provides bonuses with fury, it needs access to… fury. The only access right now is in dueling, below 75%. That is highly unreliable.

 

Virtuso is still made out of paper. It needs some improvement to sustain on base level. It is highly susceptible to ranged damage in particular. 

[Kondor.2904]

If holo can spam its nades or necro can spam its wells from behind, there's no reason virtuoso shouldn't be able too, and it's not like it doesn't have huge pink double wind-up animations. Getting ur core mechanic and healing skill yoinked by target strafing off slightly to the side is the clunkiest gameplay feature ever.

[MrAmputatoes.6031]

14 minutes ago, Kondor.2904 said:

If holo can spam its nades or necro can spam its wells from behind, there's no reason virtuoso shouldn't be able too, and it's not like it doesn't have huge pink double wind-up animations. Getting ur core mechanic and healing skill yoinked by target strafing off slightly to the side is the clunkiest gameplay feature ever.

It's also fun when people realize if they walk past you can you cant turn fast enough, your shatters are canceled. 

[Mik.3401]

3 hours ago, FrownyClown.8402 said:

So you want bladesongs to be faster while also being able to shoot them from behind? Sounds too much for pvp. The bladesong harmony+pistol combo already 1 shots someone with no stunbreaks. Id rather virtuoso get more mobiliry so they can turn and burst more effectively. 

This is not true, it barely bruises on berserker stats. Also - if you think about it most classes can cast key skills behind + they have sustain skills. Virtuoso is a complete glass and it cannot cast anything but phantasms behind. How is that fair?

[The Specimen.8973]

Tackling the issues with direction and targeting when it comes to the Bladesongs and Heal almost requires the allowing of using said skills no matter your direction to prevent self-cancelling the skills or targets far too easily positioning themselves in a way that causes them to completely fail. And I would be as a result of that change that would then allow the using of those skills behind you  which (like mentioned) isn't a "new, broken" functionality because just look at Phantasm skills and Grenade/Mortar kits on Engi, as well as many more examples. This should be a ranged damage dealer, so if we can't kite while dealing damage we were so quickly and easily going to be forced into close quarters where we're too squishy to survive most of the time.

[zealex.9410]

Agree with most of this except virt having group utility, its a pure dps spec it shouldnt have group buffs/boons ontop of it, it should just have the strong dmg to back it up.

 

F1 and f2 being ground targeted whould do wonders for the uniqueness of the spec and f4 being blade renewal would be fantastic (doesnt allow you to distort stomp bit replenishes your blades).

 

Imo dagger 3 should have a flip skill that teleports you to the location of the tornado when you press it a second time. The dagger really lacks a defensive/utility skill, sword has 2 and scepter has one.

I would be more weary about giving virt easy access to unblockable because unblockable is oppresive however id lower cast times travel times and remove the requirement to face the target to compensate at least.

Edited December 1, 2021 by zealex.9410

[The Specimen.8973]

20 hours ago, zealex.9410 said:

Agree with most of this except virt having group utility, its a pure dps spec it shouldnt have group buffs/boons ontop of it, it should just have the strong dmg to back it up.

 

F1 and f2 being ground targeted whould do wonders for the uniqueness of the spec and f4 being blade renewal would be fantastic (doesnt allow you to distort stomp bit replenishes your blades).

 

Imo dagger 3 should have a flip skill that teleports you to the location of the tornado when you press it a second time. The dagger really lacks a defensive/utility skill, sword has 2 and scepter has one.

I would be more weary about giving virt easy access to unblockable because unblockable is oppresive however id lower cast times travel times and remove the requirement to face the target to compensate at least.

Totally understand! Tbh I'm more in favor of personal utility such as dagger/psionics traits or mobility traits to replace the Condi traitline!

 

The new "Shatter-focused spec" should at least have more unique shatters than core, yet they're not even as unique as Chrono's shatters, which is why I'd love to some more original shatters.

 

Personally I'd be against that change for dagger 3 as you're going to be sending the storm at your targets, further into the fray, so to have your dagger mobility skill be more likely to put you in the heat of combat would be another dejection from the ranged concept of the spec imo. Bladecall causing you to teleport backwards, I feel is more fitting as a ranged spec option for retreating and producing distance/kiting your enemies.

 

I understand a lot of people caution with unblockable, hence why I wouldn't want to see it baseline and all the time. With the amount of movement so many builds have in GW2, I think a requirement of being further than 600 range to have unblockable bladesongs wouldn't be strong. Players just need to close the gap (be within 600 range) and the Virtuoso loses their unblockable, it will make Virtuoso fulfil the glassy ranged power dps role it seems like its supposed to be.

[Chrolo.8536]

1 hour ago, The Specimen.8973 said:

I understand a lot of people caution with unblockable, hence why I wouldn't want to see it baseline and all the time. With the amount of movement so many builds have in GW2, I think a requirement of being further than 600 range to have unblockable bladesongs wouldn't be strong. Players just need to close the gap (be within 600 range) and the Virtuoso loses their unblockable, it will make Virtuoso fulfil the glassy ranged power dps role it seems like its supposed to be.

There is no need to make the Shatters unblockable. Regarding PvP and WvW it would be enough to make them not count as projectiles. This way the enemies can still blocked them with all the regular blocking skills, but the attacks would still go through all the ubiquitous projectile hate in those modes (walls, feedback, smoke screen etc.). I don't get why this was not on the table for discussion.

 

But I have taken the stance now, that the developers just see something in this spec that we all - the entire community - don't see. And they believe in that vision and bravely disregard the main feedback points provided by the Mesmers on this forum, because they know it will be great and we all just don't see it yet. And I can respect them for doing that.

 

I just hope it will "click" with me at some point and I realize that I was wrong for finding the Virtuoso spec boring and without identity, and no real mechanic which adds anything exciting to the class.

[zealex.9410]

3 hours ago, The Specimen.8973 said:

Totally understand! Tbh I'm more in favor of personal utility such as dagger/psionics traits or mobility traits to replace the Condi traitline!

 

The new "Shatter-focused spec" should at least have more unique shatters than core, yet they're not even as unique as Chrono's shatters, which is why I'd love to some more original shatters.

 

Personally I'd be against that change for dagger 3 as you're going to be sending the storm at your targets, further into the fray, so to have your dagger mobility skill be more likely to put you in the heat of combat would be another dejection from the ranged concept of the spec imo. Bladecall causing you to teleport backwards, I feel is more fitting as a ranged spec option for retreating and producing distance/kiting your enemies.

 

I understand a lot of people caution with unblockable, hence why I wouldn't want to see it baseline and all the time. With the amount of movement so many builds have in GW2, I think a requirement of being further than 600 range to have unblockable bladesongs wouldn't be strong. Players just need to close the gap (be within 600 range) and the Virtuoso loses their unblockable, it will make Virtuoso fulfil the glassy ranged power dps role it seems like its supposed to be.

Yeah suggested myself giving dagger 3 a flip skill that tps you to the tornado and also change f1 and 2 into ground targeted aoes. Also changes the cooldowns because they dont play well with the new shatter mechanic.

Generally why i think d3 teleport would be neat is because it also opens up mindgames. The enemy wouldnt be sure where to keep pushing onto you or sticking close to the tornado and its pulsing dmg in case you teleport to it. It opens up an of possibilities for outplay imho hence why i suggested it.

 

That form of unblockable opens up another problem tho, that being that whether our shatters are unblockable or not is out of our control and into the enemy's largely. Imo id rather see what we have now as part of the solution and the rest comming from making the shatter's casts smaller, their travel time faster and being sble to cast them in any direction.

Edited December 2, 2021 by zealex.9410

[Yoci.2481]

I don't think it's a good idea to make shatter unblockable but they shouldn't be projectiles.

[Ludovide.1967]

I really like the idea of dagger 3 being a flip over skill, it would bring some much needed mobility to the spec and I can imagine in pvp, sending it off away from enemies as a way to disengage (even if it is a bit slow). I dont like the idea of making the shatters ground targeted personally, atleast not f1 and f2

[babak.3654]

I'd prefer for the bladesongs to be faster, not be projectiles, and to be usable regardless of facing. Unblockable on every shatter would be a bit much, although some limited access to unblockable via a utility or trait would be fine (just not on block or evade because that's not helpful).

A ground-targeted F2 (replacing the confusion application along with the condition damage traitline ...) would be nice.

Edited December 3, 2021 by babak.3654

[Shiyo.3578]

They shouldn't be unblockable but they shouldn't be projectiles. They're far too difficult to land damage with compared to normal shatters for no reason.

[vanflyheight.6832]

Ok, im going to go over the entire virtuoso spec since i might of made some better changes to this. 

 

Dagger #1 auto, either make this into an auto atk chain with each skill within the chain doing bleed stacks with the final adding the condi slow to the mix or just have the auto as is with 2 bleed stacks with slow as well. Id think that by adding slow to this, it might make some interesting playstyle. 

 

Dagger#2, add in either torment, burn or poison with either regen or swiftness on dagger return. (or any other boon/boons that would fit this skill) 

 

Dagger #3, this could have blindness with another condi or add boons based on the number of targets hit. 

 

Utilities: Twin Blade Restoration- This skill could go like this (remove 1 condi per active blade) without it having to use a blade while facing the target. 

 

Rain of Swords + Sword of decimation: The way these skills are done so far could go 1-2 ways, either they get reworked with something else or the mechanic is sound enough to add in some other things like with sword of decimation could also receive like 5secs of fury or might. The rain of swords either could add in like poison with vulnerability or some kind of boon. 

 

Blade Renewal, Think this has already been said quite a bit with it being swapped with the current f4 block but it were to go this way id prob suggest the distortion to be reduced down to 2secs with it able to stack 2 or 3 blades. 

 

Psychic Force: instead of having it in a melee range knockback, have it able to use the blades that knockback within like a 900 range. This way the user can knockback either in melee range or from distance for better chances of interrupts and combos. The other would be is to just rework the skill itself. 

 

Thousand Cuts: This skill is too lackluster atm to be of any good. So this could require a rework or make it more mobile while activating it. Plus could add in some boons or condis like torment, burn, bleed and slow based on the number of blades used. 

 

Traits: Minor

Top: The aegis could be something that could be viable but also could add in like a damage reduction of condis or reduced condi duration of certain ones like cripple, immob and chill. Could also add in regen in the mix here as well.

Middle: Instead of just pure strike dmg, rework this to where it could be workable with boons like quickness, might, fury or swiftness with a low icd of  like 20secs. 

Bottom: replace this one with the bottom major trait that could give increased condi duration/expertise to make it more viable as a condi trait while making the condis do more dmg. So this would combine the current minor trait with the bleeding with the major trait. 

 

Major: 

Top: Instead of giving boons for dodging or blocking, make it so this could be used based on any form of disables and stock a blade for each successful hit. 

Middle: This one could be reworked or switch the grandmaster trait for stocking a blade in combat to here. 

Bottom: Since this would be already combined into one of the minor traits, this would be reworked for something else. 

 

Grandmaster:

Top: This trait has some potential with the unblockable with the shatters but instead of blocking/dodging again, id say this could use a rework along with possibly putting it where Quiet Intensity is located but keep the synergy with the unblockable for the next bladesong. 

Middle: This already been placed in the major trait, or could be in the minor trait with a rework. Plus could possibly server as a spot for Quiet intensity that is reworked. 

Bottom: Already combined in the minor, rework needed. Could add in some boons/additional condis or another viability of boon removal.

Regarding traits: Some of the boons added to these traits could be stab, protection, resistance, vigor and or resolution just to name some of the defensive ones. 

 

Shatters: Total rework is in order since its lackluster and doesnt synergize well with how the greatsword works. So would be stuck using dagger. 

 

This is alot to be theorizing atm but wanna get some feedback on this since i know alot would rather see virtuoso become more viable. 

Edited December 5, 2021 by vanflyheight.6832

[Mell.4873]

On 12/1/2021 at 5:20 PM, otto.5684 said:

PvE here. Yes, the condition trait make no sense. Dagger has no condi damage. And the entire condi mesmer setup does not work without mirage. Pistol, staff and scepter do not deal enough damage on their own. These traits should be gutted in favor of mobility traits. 
 

In addition, since Virtuso provides bonuses with fury, it needs access to… fury. The only access right now is in dueling, below 75%. That is highly unreliable.

 

Virtuso is still made out of paper. It needs some improvement to sustain on base level. It is highly susceptible to ranged damage in particular. 

I believe the main reason there is a condition line is due to core having so many condition skills especially for offhand.

[The Specimen.8973]

On 12/5/2021 at 10:16 AM, Mell.4873 said:

I believe the main reason there is a condition line is due to core having so many condition skills especially for offhand.

But this is the thing, Condi builds for Virtuoso are just not as viable compared to the other mesmer specs. The two main condi weapons for mesmer, Staff and Scepter, are rendered almost useless due to a large percentage of their damage coming from clones, which Virtuoso no longer has, so condi builds won't ever reach the same potential as power builds on Virtuoso. Anet would have to create buffed versions of Staff and Scepter skills for when you're spec'd into Virtuoso to effectively allow for condi Virtuoso to be worth it. This is why a lot of the mesmers on the forum are asking for the condi line to be just entirely replaced with self utility (psionics buff trait, dagger buff trait etc.). It's okay for Mirage to be the condi-focused spec and Virtuoso to be the power-focused spec!

[Walle.6045]

agree so much with OP