About the new F3 and the theme of the Legendary Alliance

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

1 minute ago, Kidel.2057 said:

 

You said "squad content". Never specified WvW. 
 

or PvP for that matter.

/Shrug

[Kidel.2057]

1 minute ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

I think what you're talking about could be a potentially decent support for WvW, but I can't see it being great for PvP or PvE at the moment and I think it's still inferior to Guardian/Tempest, etc.

Yeah probably. I don't think Anet had that in mind tho, so I'd still take it as negative feedback. 

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

1 minute ago, Scoobaniec.9561 said:

What Alliance has over Kalla or even Glint? Or even Ventari? Running in circles..

Legend that is neither dps focused nor support. We needed second power dps house legend and we got smth that is neither good at dps and overshadowed in support. I dont even know why they placed some subpar support in again. Nobody asked for it

At least in PvE, the DPS is currently 37k+ (people still testing) and the burst is high (first number 48k+) so as long as they don't nerf it it'll be a pretty good power dps

[Kidel.2057]

4 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

At least in PvE, the DPS is currently 37k+ (people still testing) and the burst is high (first number 48k+) so as long as they don't nerf it it'll be a pretty good power dps

NOT using Alliance. 

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

1 minute ago, Kidel.2057 said:

NOT using Alliance. 

Video actually does use Alliance.  Not sure how much better or worse Jalis is though

[ChronoPinoyX.7923]

3 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Video actually does use Alliance.  Not sure how much better or worse Jalis is though

Wrong vid, that one's with Jalis+Shiro, the one below is the Shiro+Alliance vid

 

[Kidel.2057]

4 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Video actually does use Alliance.  Not sure how much better or worse Jalis is though

This one never uses Alliance. 37k with 48k peak

[Kidel.2057]

Just now, ChronoPinoyX.7923 said:

Wrong vid, that one's with Jalis+Shiro, the one below is the Shiro+Alliance vid

 

ok the difference is negligible. Meaning Jalis provides the same DPS AND support at the same time. 

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

5 minutes ago, ChronoPinoyX.7923 said:

Wrong vid, that one's with Jalis+Shiro, the one below is the Shiro+Alliance vid

 

oh yep, thanks for catching that! 

 

5 minutes ago, Kidel.2057 said:

ok the difference is negligible. Meaning Jalis provides the same DPS AND support at the same time. 

Well, that's an unfair comparison.  Jalis doesn't provide support and the same dps at the same time.  If you start casting Inspiring Reinforcement you're going to start losing damage over Alliance.  But yes, Jalis's supportive option IS better (imo as well) if you need to use it. 

If they buff the Elite spear like they should and give a bit more damage to the utilities then Alliance should come out ahead by a bit. 

[Infusion.7149]

Jalis doesn't condi clear other people or give you might/fury and has zero evades or mobility...

Edited December 1, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Kidel.2057]

36 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

If they buff the Elite spear like they should and give a bit more damage to the utilities then Alliance should come out ahead by a bit. 

Honestly I agree. The concept is not bad. They just need to make the elite skills useful and the healing skills not terrible. The utilities just need some minor tweaks. 

[ChronoPinoyX.7923]

Jalis has advantages in Squad play, that much I can accept,  but Alliance provides stupid levels of offensive play compared to Jalis+Shiro whilst still providing a level support though not in the same level as Jalis would. I mean these videos alone speak for themselves on how good Alliance+Shiro works out. 

Right now this is pretty much on par with Jalis+Shiro, if not better for certain Squads plays that have good support outside Revenant. It's pretty situational which one has its advantages, but Alliance is far from worthless. 

[Kidel.2057]

I agree that it's situational. My main complaint is not that Alliance is useless, but that it has no definitive advantage to pick over core legends. Would you ever use Herald without Glint? 

Sure, Alliance is not worthless, but the difference between Alliance+Whatever and Shiro+Jalis is negligible. It's not useless, but it's noth useful eaither. You could remove it from the espec and people wouldn't care too much. 

EDIT: Plus your videos basically show Vindicator owning people with GS5 (100% nerfed before EoD or soon after, like Sword 3), that could be done even with Ventari+nothing. 

Edited December 2, 2021 by Kidel.2057

[Scoobaniec.9561]

2 hours ago, Kidel.2057 said:

I agree that it's situational. My main complaint is not that Alliance is useless, but that it has no definitive advantage to pick over core legends. Would you ever use Herald without Glint? 

Sure, Alliance is not worthless, but the difference between Alliance+Whatever and Shiro+Jalis is negligible. It's not useless, but it's noth useful eaither. You could remove it from the espec and people wouldn't care too much. 

EDIT: Plus your videos basically show Vindicator owning people with GS5 (100% nerfed before EoD or soon after, like Sword 3), that could be done even with Ventari+nothing. 

Id be fun to see them nerf rng ability instead actually reworking it. Its either hit nothing or 1 shot lmao. Mirin high iq luck desing. Olny at ArenaNet LLC

[Kidel.2057]

51 minutes ago, Scoobaniec.9561 said:

Id be fun to see them nerf rng ability instead actually reworking it. Its either hit nothing or 1 shot lmao. Mirin high iq luck desing. Olny at ArenaNet LLC

it's already far less rng since beta 1. I'd love for it to be theorically weaker but almost no rng. But I have my doubts. 
Sword 3 has been broken for ages, hitting non existant things. Should just focus 1 target. 

Edited December 2, 2021 by Kidel.2057

[Jthug.9506]

I hope GS5 stays dangerous enough to punish tightly stacked zergs, and if the burst is toned down I hope the cd is also reduced. But I have seen some wild numbers this time around on it.

 

Main gripe now is that Spear of Archamorus is completely lame, bad damage, torment why? Misses my target 95% of the time…

 

Fix it and move it to an fkey, add an upkeep damage skill in the elite spot instead if you ask me

[Jthug.9506]

22 hours ago, ChronoPinoyX.7923 said:

Jalis has advantages in Squad play, that much I can accept,  but Alliance provides stupid levels of offensive play compared to Jalis+Shiro whilst still providing a level support though not in the same level as Jalis would. I mean these videos alone speak for themselves on how good Alliance+Shiro works out. 

Right now this is pretty much on par with Jalis+Shiro, if not better for certain Squads plays that have good support outside Revenant. It's pretty situational which one has its advantages, but Alliance is far from worthless. 

 

Having serious heartburn watching your health pool there though...

[ChronoPinoyX.7923]

10 hours ago, Kidel.2057 said:

I agree that it's situational. My main complaint is not that Alliance is useless, but that it has no definitive advantage to pick over core legends. Would you ever use Herald without Glint? 

Sure, Alliance is not worthless, but the difference between Alliance+Whatever and Shiro+Jalis is negligible. It's not useless, but it's noth useful eaither. You could remove it from the espec and people wouldn't care too much. 

EDIT: Plus your videos basically show Vindicator owning people with GS5 (100% nerfed before EoD or soon after, like Sword 3), that could be done even with Ventari+nothing. 

The only thing that's stopping Glint from being replaced by base Legends is Facet passives because they actually affect other people. No one uses Kalla on Renegade in WvW because her Legend is genuinely useless. Alliance has genuine viability that people are overlooking because tunnel vision. The fact that I've provided videos of someone effectively using Alliance yet somehow people still argue it's useless just proves the point.

Feels like people are overreliant on Shiro+Jalis right now that they aren't willing to experiment with the Alliance Legend. That's really concerning if that's the case because the overreliance on Shiro+Jalis from a PvP/WvW perspective means something is either overtuned or far too prominent of a necessity somewhere and the last thing we need is ANet killing the profession. 

Edited December 2, 2021 by ChronoPinoyX.7923

[Zenith.7301]

Having a cast time to swap between Archemorus and Viktor is so unbelievably stupid.

2 hours ago, ChronoPinoyX.7923 said:

The only thing that's stopping Glint from being replaced by base Legends is Facet passives because they actually affect other people. No one uses Kalla on Renegade in WvW because her Legend is genuinely useless. Alliance has genuine viability that people are overlooking because tunnel vision. The fact that I've provided videos of someone effectively using Alliance yet somehow people still argue it's useless just proves the point.

Feels like people are overreliant on Shiro+Jalis right now that they aren't willing to experiment with the Alliance Legend. That's really concerning if that's the case because the overreliance on Shiro+Jalis from a PvP/WvW perspective means something is either overtuned or far too prominent of a necessity somewhere and the last thing we need is ANet killing the profession.

All Kalla needs to suddenly become meta in WvW is for the warband members to be untargetable and un-CCable. If the warband members get to channel, their effects are actually rather powerful, and they are never redundant because their effects are unique and not just redundant boons.

It's nowhere near as terrible as Legendary Alliance.

Edited December 3, 2021 by Zenith.7301

[genjonah.1253]

12 hours ago, Kidel.2057 said:

I agree that it's situational. My main complaint is not that Alliance is useless, but that it has no definitive advantage to pick over core legends. Would you ever use Herald without Glint? 

To be fair, there’s also significant builds for renegade that don’t use Kalla- Shiro/Jalis or Shiro/Mallyx just off the top of my head for celeroamer and condi dps, respectively 

 

as for alliance itself- yeah, I don’t MIND it, but both elite skills need significant improvement before it is actually the one I am going to take over the cores (or just use a herald/renegade build)

[vilesoldier.9826]

5 minutes ago, Zenith.7301 said:

Having a cast time to swap between Archemorus and Viktor is so unbelievably stupid.

This.

I can excuse 10s cooldown (tho Anet decided high cd for mechanic swap wasn't ok for Untamed but nooo Vind needs the "tradeoff", but i'll let it slide 🤷‍♂️)

But 1/2 second cast to get to my cleanse with its OWN cast while trying to not get feared by the necro?????

[ChronoPinoyX.7923]

6 minutes ago, Zenith.7301 said:

Having a cast time to swap between Archemorus and Viktor is so unbelievably stupid.

All Kalla needs to suddenly become meta in WvW is for the warband members to be untargetable and un-CCable. If the warband members get to channel, their effects are actually rather powerful, and they are never redundant because their effects are unique and not just redundant boons.

It's nowhere near as terrible as Legendary Alliance.

So in order for Kalla to be anywhere near reliable, they have to essentially make its utilities broken. Meanwhile Alliance is already viable as a Legend despite being in beta phase and having its current skills apparently "useless or terrible" according to people in these forums. 

Welp, I'm not gonna force people to change their minds, but end of the day, calling Alliance terrible or useless is factually wrong because people have already proven how decent it actually is. It may be terrible for some people to use because they can't adjust to it, but that's an issue for the player, not so much the actual Legend. It still needs balancing, that much we can all agree with. 

 

[Zenith.7301]

40 minutes ago, ChronoPinoyX.7923 said:

So in order for Kalla to be anywhere near reliable, they have to essentially make its utilities broken. Meanwhile Alliance is already viable as a Legend despite being in beta phase and having its current skills apparently "useless or terrible" according to people in these forums. 

Welp, I'm not gonna force people to change their minds, but end of the day, calling Alliance terrible or useless is factually wrong because people have already proven how decent it actually is. It may be terrible for some people to use because they can't adjust to it, but that's an issue for the player, not so much the actual Legend. It still needs balancing, that much we can all agree with. 

 

 

 

It is not viable. It is literally worthless in PvE, basically the Revenant version of reaper shouts, which nobody uses because they're garbage. Except your utilities compete for the same resources as your weaponskills, energy meld, your heal, and your elite,unlike reaper shouts.

 

In PvP/WvW they're just worse versions of what Kalla/Herald provide. Kalla provides 15-20 permanent might stacks, alacrity, and an aoe nuke even if the warband has issues. Herald provides a metric ton more boons.

 

Vindicator provides less boons, has an inferior PvP heal to Herald, and is handicapped by a single dodge design without the endurance regenration to support it effectively.

 

Kalla utilities would not be broken if they were untargetable and unCCable, they'd be virtually necro or chrono or specter wells or scourge shades. Get out of them. They even take longer to deliver skills than traditional wells, which would justify their power.

Edited December 3, 2021 by Zenith.7301

[Joxer.6024]

you should be able to mix and match the legends...it is an Alliance afterall. go with 3 red and 2 blue or whatever you fancy, but no swap and just be able to use both, as a team.

[Jthug.9506]

I think the swap is ok, but it may take time to get used too, I actually think your idea isn't bad, would be nice to pick from both, but also keep the ability to swap all to have access to everything on the fly if needed.

 

Last night in my wvw rally I actually settled on using jallis/mallyx for the night. Mainly because both upkeep skills continue to proc on enemy players while I am in my dodge. I do find SA to be pretty strong, but because it has no damaging upkeep skill I can't justify using it in a rally. GS5 is amazing but I would actually prefer it to be 33% weaker and cool down 33% faster.

 

I think the best thing that could change for vindicator from a wvw rally perspective would be to move the arch spear to an fkey and give the elite a damaging upkeep skill that's also an ally might stacker, which would help justify running vindicator over herald in comp.

 

Also fwiw I ended up settling on ret/dev/vin in terms of talent trees, and using marauder stats/eagle runes/energy-force & energy-bloodlust sigils. Felt pretty good.

Edited December 3, 2021 by Jthug.9506