Is Vindicator worth doing without Kalla ?

[Parthenos Polias.5683]

Hi, for sure there is plenty of feedback posts, but I wanted to ask one specific question.

For a player who is used to play Kalla with SB and dual swords, is it worth to play Vindicator ?

 

From my perspective Alliance skills feel less rewarding than Kalla's.
So, I though : "ok no matter, let's just use the GS". But doing this, I both lose the SB (and I like a lot playing with a bow) and Kalla's utilities.

It feels like I have to sacrifice so much just to play with a GS.

[Kidel.2057]

I already use Renegade with just Core Legends and I find Kalla terrible to use outside of pure condi builds. So yes. 
Vindicator with Core legends is lots of fun. The only problem with the spec is Alliance not giving anything useful over Shiro and Jalis. 

[Jthug.9506]

Nah kalla is good with power, but all I need to say is that nomad’s advance hits harder than death strike and it’s 5 target to speak nothing of the glory that is GS5. However it’s much glassier than kalla, I suspect once I get more used to dipping into st Viktor to deal with pressure it won’t be as bad but it’s all so new. I never had a good experience playing power kalla in raids but I love it for bounties and the like in open world. Vindicator is higher risk higher reward and requires more support than renegade.

Edited December 4, 2021 by Jthug.9506

[Aeolus.3615]

On 12/1/2021 at 2:55 PM, Kidel.2057 said:

I already use Renegade with just Core Legends and I find Kalla terrible to use outside of pure condi builds. So yes. 
Vindicator with Core legends is lots of fun. The only problem with the spec is Alliance not giving anything useful over Shiro and Jalis. 

 

Kala can do at max some hybrid'ish concepts but going full power is a huge mistake IMO

While on vidicator ive managed to reach with damage on leap (trait forerunner of death ) arround 15k-20k hits (white mantle mobs), power builds on vindicador with lots of power and crit felt really good and didnt felt that glassy with the vampiric traits from shiro and  rapid flow from invocation line (2-2-2), felt really good playing mix bzerker with assassin stats.

this is what i played and had most fun with the spec.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmwAExzlxQmMP6k1RpMOClRSqMCqkJ1lfkD-zRZYBhWfLqBxQUGB/kitten-e

Edited December 4, 2021 by Aeolus.3615

[BadSanta.6527]

kala probbly will stay the batter otion but its something you can say at all the eod elite compre to the pof elites

[Kanok.3027]

1 hour ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

Kala can do at max some hybrid'ish concepts but going full power is a huge mistake IMO

How so? If you use Daring, you get a great CC along with some damage, thus if you break the definace bar, with Impact sigil, casting Ire right before switching to Shiro and using Impossible odds, you get amazing damage! While I wish it had more offensive options not related to condi, it still works very well for power.

[Ausar.9542]

Right now,,, NO.

 

Kalla is way better damage in PvE. In PvP thats another story.

[Jthug.9506]

Uhh I think vindicator is benching at least as high as kalla for power rn.

[Infusion.7149]

11 hours ago, Ausar.9542 said:

Right now,,, NO.

 

Kalla is way better damage in PvE. In PvP thats another story.

No it isn't in PVE.

Power Renegade Kalla on large hitbox is 35.1 Invocation to 36.9K with Retribution (relies on resolution similar to power DH with Radiance traitline and weakness for 10% damage mod from Dwarven Battle Training), Vindiicator with Alliance is 37.1K on Devastation+Invocation.
 

[Aeolus.3615]

10 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

No it isn't in PVE.

Power Renegade Kalla on large hitbox is 35.1 Invocation to 36.9K with Retribution (relies on resolution similar to power DH with Radiance traitline and weakness for 10% damage mod from Dwarven Battle Training), Vindiicator with Alliance is 37.1K on Devastation+Invocation.
 

 

Vindicador do 10k-20k hits in pve , some with burst some single hight damage i dont see kala reaching this values...

In wvw full bzerker i was doing 700 damage to 1.5 crits :D 

[Zeneles.9058]

10 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

No it isn't in PVE.

Power Renegade Kalla on large hitbox is 35.1 Invocation to 36.9K with Retribution (relies on resolution similar to power DH with Radiance traitline and weakness for 10% damage mod from Dwarven Battle Training), Vindiicator with Alliance is 37.1K on Devastation+Invocation.
 

The Retribution benchmark is outdated, you can consider it's a bit lower than 36K.
Vindicator can be pushed to like 37.5, and this is a very terrible ending, few seconds away to be a 38+, so definitely in a better spot than first beta.

Now if you compare utilities... it gets worse for Vindicator since you doesn't bring much on the table while Renegade is an absolute god that can't die thanks to Icerazor/DoD synergy. Also very easy to bring CC with Darkrazor or a Staff if you don't value Shortbow's range.

 

Still need some buffs/tweaks on Vindicator and we'll actually have a good Power spec for Revenant.

[Jthug.9506]

I’m hoping they move spear of archamorus to an fkey and make it a pull, and then give the elite slot some kind of damage based upkeep like impossible odds or vengeful hammers or embrace the darkness. That would make LA more attractive in pve and also in wvw zergs imo.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

36 minutes ago, Jthug.9506 said:

I’m hoping they move spear of archamorus to an fkey and make it a pull, and then give the elite slot some kind of damage based upkeep like impossible odds or vengeful hammers or embrace the darkness. That would make LA more attractive in pve and also in wvw zergs imo.

 

Was thinking it could be cool to have Spear originally cast as a damage-based upkeep and then have the toggle off be the actual spear throw skill that is currently in the game, perhaps even increasing in power based on the upkeep duration that was maintained (like charging the spear throw).

[Jthug.9506]

3 minutes ago, Za Shaloc.3908 said:

 

Was thinking it could be cool to have Spear originally cast as a damage-based upkeep and then have the toggle off be the actual spear throw skill that is currently in the game, perhaps even increasing in power based on the upkeep duration that was maintained (like charging the spear throw).

Well making it a toggle would at least make it consistent with urn, not a bad idea! Would for sure still like to see the spear be homing and also maybe a pull. 

[Infusion.7149]

1 hour ago, Zeneles.9058 said:

The Retribution benchmark is outdated, you can consider it's a bit lower than 36K.
Vindicator can be pushed to like 37.5, and this is a very terrible ending, few seconds away to be a 38+, so definitely in a better spot than first beta.

Now if you compare utilities... it gets worse for Vindicator since you doesn't bring much on the table while Renegade is an absolute god that can't die thanks to Icerazor/DoD synergy. Also very easy to bring CC with Darkrazor or a Staff if you don't value Shortbow's range.

 

Still need some buffs/tweaks on Vindicator and we'll actually have a good Power spec for Revenant.

Feel free to post updated benchmarks.

You can't remove 5 condis on other people effortlessly on Kalla as low as every 3s or AOE stunbreak people (no Rite of the Great Dwarf or Pain Abosrption don't function that way) and you don't have any power damage gap closers which you do have on Archemorus (alliance). For a spec with one dodge having gap closers is important.

I was discussing this with a guildmate that mains revenant in WvW : after prior tests and this beta week the main issue of the dodge (other than their never playing mirage which has one dodge) is it doesn't clear rocks/any floor obstacles even though it appears to leap into the air. However I don't think normal dodges clear any obstacles either unless you jump dodge. Greatsword was not increased in damage in competitive modes whatsoever and you probably want to keep some endurance meaning Leviathan Strength is weaker, outside double energy sigils the one dodge hurts you defensively (which is why the mobility and evade on alliance is helpful). I'd imagine Vindicator is not as strong in PVP as in WVW because in WVW if you have mobility skills it might be able to make up for a dodge so long as you aren't in a 1v1 , it's a superspeed meta, and there is endurance food. In WvW you might actually hit 5 targets with Greatsword (and Eternity's Requiem hits hard) whereas in PVP it is hardly likely.

Could archemorus utilities do a bit more damage? Probably the spear could do more damage especially due to the large delay. However, if Vindicator can do consistent 37K or 38K DPS without that much effort compared to weaver, soulbeast, or holo it probably shouldn't get even more damage as it is not as though renegade is a completely unrequested PVE spec unlike thieves. 37K DPS is what you get on full DPS power berserker as well. I've seen a benchmark with Shiro+Jalis and greatsword have 36K+ DPS just camping greatsword.

Speaking of the spear, its functionality could be changed to have CC or finished downed targets to make it actually different in terms of usage. I don't think an upkeep skill would be beneficial on a 2000 range skill and Vindicator is energy starved due to low cooldowns. Maybe have a short damage bonus when someone is speared similar to DH's Spear of justice to increase focused single target DPS when the 5 target value of GS is not there.

Before someone comes in with "BUT CONDI RENEGADE DOES MORE DPS in PvE", condi renegade is highly likely to be rebalanced to the damage numbers it was before torment patch (33K condi RR / 37K full cDPS) and it uses 2 weaponsets and 2 legends just to achieve that damage. You also wouldn't run it at Keep Construct for example.

If I look back at this week's testing the one thing about Vindicator consistently worse than it should be is the urn. It doesn't even have the listed damage to yourself, it is far more than listed.

Edited December 5, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Za Shaloc.3908]

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Feel free to post updated benchmarks.

You can't remove 5 condis on other people effortlessly on Kalla as low as every 3s or AOE stunbreak people (no Rite of the Great Dwarf or Pain Abosrption don't function that way) and you don't have any power damage gap closers which you do have on Archemorus (alliance). For a spec with one dodge having gap closers is important.

I was discussing this with a guildmate that mains revenant in WvW : after prior tests and this beta week the main issue of the dodge (other than their never playing mirage which has one dodge) is it doesn't clear rocks/any floor obstacles even though it appears to leap into the air. However I don't think normal dodges clear any obstacles either unless you jump dodge. Greatsword was not increased in damage in competitive modes whatsoever and you probably want to keep some endurance meaning Leviathan Strength is weaker, outside double energy sigils the one dodge hurts you defensively (which is why the mobility and evade on alliance is helpful). I'd imagine Vindicator is not as strong in PVP as in WVW because in WVW if you have mobility skills it might be able to make up for a dodge so long as you aren't in a 1v1 , it's a superspeed meta, and there is endurance food. In WvW you might actually hit 5 targets with Greatsword (and Eternity's Requiem hits hard) whereas in PVP it is hardly likely.

Could archemorus utilities do a bit more damage? Probably the spear could do more damage especially due to the large delay. However, if Vindicator can do consistent 37K or 38K DPS without that much effort compared to weaver, soulbeast, or holo it probably shouldn't get even more damage as it is not as though renegade is a completely unrequested PVE spec unlike thieves. 37K DPS is what you get on full DPS power berserker as well. I've seen a benchmark with Shiro+Jalis and greatsword have 36K+ DPS just camping greatsword.

Speaking of the spear, its functionality could be changed to have CC or finished downed targets to make it actually different in terms of usage. I don't think an upkeep skill would be beneficial on a 2000 range skill and Vindicator is energy starved due to low cooldowns. Maybe have a short damage bonus when someone is speared similar to DH's Spear of justice to increase focused single target DPS when the 5 target value of GS is not there.

Before someone comes in with "BUT CONDI RENEGADE DOES MORE DPS in PvE", condi renegade is highly likely to be rebalanced to the damage numbers it was before torment patch (33K condi RR / 37K full cDPS) and it uses 2 weaponsets and 2 legends just to achieve that damage. You also wouldn't run it at Keep Construct for example.

If I look back at this week's testing the one thing about Vindicator consistently worse than it should be is the urn. It doesn't even have the listed damage to yourself, it is far more than listed.

 

A tether from the spear is actually a great idea, probably my fav idea I have seen so far for it. Still maintains its uniqueness while also giving it a nice special bonus for focused single-target damage.

[Zeneles.9058]

Nobody bothered doing an updated Retribution benchmark since that's highly irrelevant in most scenarios. 
My point was only about PvE sorry if that was misread, I have no clue about how it performs in PvP/WvW.

I still dont understand why Spear is applying Torment.. I mean the spear needs few seconds delay to be released, we could expect some knockdown or something from a powerful spear throwed at your head, not against more damage aswell.

 

37K is way enough to be a viable pick in PUG meta, however this is so far from being a decent pick in speedkills / organized statics. It definitely can't be lower than that amount since you have so many weaknesses and doesn't bring anything to your squad. I could easily see a lot of people griefing while playing Vindicator because they can't manage their dodges/blocks/evades and therefore just pushing your group down.

 

We have no clue about future balance patch so hard to say if Condi Ren is getting demolished soonish or not, a decent part of cRen's dps comes from Razorclaw which is "invisible" on benchmarks and I'm not certain Anet acknowledged that part to consider a balance.

[Infusion.7149]

32 minutes ago, Za Shaloc.3908 said:

 

A tether from the spear is actually a great idea, probably my fav idea I have seen so far for it. Still maintains its uniqueness while also giving it a nice special bonus for focused single-target damage.

I play a lot of spellbreaker so magebane tether (10% damage bonus, reveal and pull) comes to mind as well 😃 , it's lower value in PVE but very useful in PVP  / WVW smallscale scenarios.
If someone played deadeye they would probably mentioned marked target I guess.

If Arenanet wants to be true to the original spear, it should probably knock down however, see
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Spear_of_Archemorus

Edited December 5, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Za Shaloc.3908]

33 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

I play a lot of spellbreaker so magebane tether (10% damage bonus, reveal and pull) comes to mind as well 😃 , it's lower value in PVE but very useful in PVP  / WVW smallscale scenarios.
If someone played deadeye they would probably mentioned marked target I guess.

If Arenanet wants to be true to the original spear, it should probably knock down however, see
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Spear_of_Archemorus

 

I would be on board for Spear having CC if and only if they made an exception to have it still deal damage in PvP/WvW. In my eyes the spear should be the big burst damage skill of the legend and I would hate to see it reduced to 1 damage in competitive modes.

Edited December 5, 2021 by Za Shaloc.3908

[Buran.3796]

18 minutes ago, Za Shaloc.3908 said:

 

I would be on board for Spear having CC if and only if they made an exception to have it still deal damage in PvP/WvW. In my eyes the spear should be the big burst damage skill of the legend and I would hate to see it reduced to 1 damage in competitive modes.

   PvE players keep having this notion of PvP that you can make something to work  just adding a valuable effect desired to the recipe, as having mass alacrity, mass quickness, mass stability or mass cleansing makes a build "meta" in instanced content.

   But PvP doesn't work that way. Vindicator won't earn a place in the PvP meta just because you add a hard cc to it. Is too lacking in sustain and mobility to replace Herald or Thief or a Holosmith as a +1; is not a good support build and is a weak vs conditions as Rev has always been. Has also worse theorycrafting potential than Herald due you're utterly chained to some traits, sigils and runes just to grant to have a quarter evade every 10 seconds (or just ignore them a play in PvP with a single jump every 20"). If you want cc for PvE is fair: call it. But don't pretend that you want it for PvP because in that landscape Vindicator is dead on arrival.

[Infusion.7149]

3s cooldown 5 condi clear means what you're saying doesn't make any sense about it being susceptible to condi. If you decide to play it as a core revenant that is on you.

There's also the AoE stunbreak factor, which no other skills besides Toss Elixir U , "Protect Me", and "Eye of the Storm" are able to do.

Edited December 5, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Buran.3796]

22 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

3s cooldown 5 condi clear means what you're saying doesn't make any sense about it being susceptible to condi. If you decide to play it as a core revenant that is on you.
 

    So you think that Alliance > Shiro or Jalis for PvP? Then why wasn't used in the French Wurms vs Team USA Beta 4 exhibition tournament in the Mighty Teapot streaming yesterday? Pro's are skipping Alliance due is too stronk?

[Jthug.9506]

“Pros” are probably using what they know because it’s a big disadvantage to use something they would have to learn. But yeah I can totally see shiro/jallis being better in pvp if you have good support from your team. But honestly nomad’s advance hits harder than deathstrike so it’s not like LA is bad it’s just that shiro has the ultimate gap close and disengage while jallis has mad group stab and damage mitigation.

[Joxer.6024]

still think they should allow a mix of the skills from the alliance. It is two after all, let use red and blue on one bar, makes it more team (alliance) based and also less swapping.

[Aeolus.3615]

On 12/6/2021 at 7:25 AM, Joxer.6024 said:

still think they should allow a mix of the skills from the alliance. It is two after all, let use red and blue on one bar, makes it more team (alliance) based and also less swapping.

but the clunkiness increases by alot u will have to flip and w8 for skills u m8 not need to reach the skill u want...

With the legendception at least one can focus on a certain gamestyle rather than have to use extra clicks to recover utilities or to make then flip to the skill we want.

Meanwhile using shiro as a 3rd legend kinda feels like a 3rd wheel person that sometimes some one talk to  hhahaha

 

 

Edited December 13, 2021 by Aeolus.3615