Fast Hands Must Be Baseline

[Yerlock.4678]

Start from there, and make adjustments where needed. Whether it's too strong or what have you, this weapon swap cd is a core mechanic to Warrior. It is unplayable unless you play the new spec WHICH IGNORESTHE ISSUE. It's not solving the fast hands problem, only ignoring it. Please address this elephant in the room it will never go away. It's not power creeping, make the nerfs if its too strong. 

 

This is where to start with the glaring balance issues for Warrior. Please CMC listen to us.

[Lonecap.4105]

As a Warrior main and GW2 player of many many years, mostly in WvW and PvP, I can say that at this point, fast hands baseline would be completely reasonable as a change. 

I hope, in the pre-EoD balance patch (if we're assuming and hoping there will be one), that core traits will be addressed and this is included as one of those changes, because Warrior without fast hands and therefore also Discipline feels terrible. 

[oscuro.9720]

Current fast hands baseline, make the fast hands trait 2s super speed or quickness on weapon swap with something like a 10-15s ICD would be very welcome. 
This would not invalidate the discipline line imo. Warrior’s sprint, brawlers recovery, destruction of the empowered, axe mastery, and burst mastery are all solid traits.

[Sobx.1758]

No, it doesn't -for the reasons stated many times in many threads before. 😄

Edited December 2, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Grand Marshal.4098]

5 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

No, it doesn't -for the reasons stated many times in many threads before. 😄

You rly like them fast hands threads 😳

[Sobx.1758]

4 hours ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

You rly like them fast hands threads 😳

As much as some of you like reposting them despite them being already discussed to hell and back on multiple occasions, I guess 🙄

Edited December 2, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

49 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

As much as some of you like reposting them despite them being already discussed to hell and back on multiple occasions, I guess 🙄

Mkay non warrior main. Meanwhile the warrior mains all seem to agree to an overwhelming degree that FH should be baseline, much like how Illusionary Persona was so important to Mesmer gameplay that it became baseline.

[Sobx.1758]

6 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Mkay non warrior main.

hah "if you don't play only this one class, you can't speak about it", mkay indeed.

6 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Meanwhile the warrior mains all seem to agree to an overwhelming degree that FH should be baseline, much like how Illusionary Persona was so important to Mesmer gameplay that it became baseline.

Players playing one class want that class buffed no matter what, color me surprised. 🙄

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

8 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

hah "if you don't play only this one class, you can't speak about it", mkay indeed.

Players playing one class want that class buffed no matter what, color me surprised. 🙄

Don't get me wrong Sobx, I do value your opinion on many things even though we don't agree on them. That comment was more to highlight the fact that the players who know the class best all generally come to the same conclusion. You are always welcome to play the devil's advocate and poke holes where you will, but this is a conclusion that the warrior mains have virtually all coalesced around.

It really is the same situation as with Illusionary Persona for Mesmer.  If one trait has become so central to a profession's gameplay that said profession is actively gimping itself by not taking it, then that trait should become baseline.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Lan Deathrider.5910

[Sobx.1758]

6 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Don't get me wrong Sobx, I do value your opinion on many things even though we don't agree on them. That comment was more to highlight the fact that the players who know the class best all generally come to the same conclusion. You are always welcome to play the devil's advocate and poke holes where you will, but this is a conclusion that the warrior mains have virtually all coalesced around.

It really is the same situation as with Illusionary Persona for Mesmer.  If one trait has become so central to a profession's gameplay that said profession is actively gimping itself by not taking it, then that trait should become baseline.

The main argument for warrior's fh to become baseline boils down to pretty much "because it feels better" (and it's a buff), but that would be equally true for any other class with in-combat swap available. If you don't pick disci, FH is pretty much as useful on warrior as it is on those other classes.

I definitely disagree with the claim about "if mains want it, it must be correct". I've seen way too many ""mains"" of different classes proclaiming the class dead in their respective class subforums after parts of those classes got nerfed and yet they were obviously wrong. The idea of "THIS SUBFORUM HAS SPOKEN SO IT MUST BE TRUE!" is misguided. If anything, they are prone to being less objective.

[ens.9854]

Stating the argument with quotes and italics does not negate it. Don't non warrior mains want to keep warrior weak?

The main argument against it is that it would be "too op", which is hardly any more profound when no balancing is off limits. What are we scared of, exactly? Overly synergistic lines should be nerfed anyway (looking at you Strength + Tactics).

Besides I'm pretty sure the main argument is that with mandatory disc + elite traitline, there is almost no build diversity, which is a pillar of gw2. The same conversation happens around thief trickery line and its bonus initiative for pvp. I think the details are a little different there (though I do think +1 init should be baseline) and there is no obligation to come to the same conclusion in both cases.

 

 

[Sobx.1758]

15 minutes ago, ens.9854 said:

Stating the argument with quotes and italics does not negate it. Don't non warrior mains want to keep warrior weak?

The main argument against it is that it would be "too op", which is hardly any more profound when no balancing is off limits. What are we scared of, exactly? Overly synergistic lines should be nerfed anyway (looking at you Strength + Tactics).

You should probably go back to the previous threads about this to understand that what you've just said is incorrect. Claiming that if you're not limiting yourself to one class (~main) means you want to keep it weak also makes no sense.

Stating the argument with quotes and italics does not negate it, but what is written along with it does.

 

Edited December 2, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[covahlam.6391]

42 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

The main argument for warrior's fh to become baseline boils down to pretty much "because it feels better" (and it's a buff), but that would be equally true for any other class with in-combat swap available. If you don't pick disci, FH is pretty much as useful on warrior as it is on those other classes.

I definitely disagree with the claim about "if mains want it, it must be correct". I've seen way too many ""mains"" of different classes proclaiming the class dead in their respective class subforums after parts of those classes got nerfed and yet they were obviously wrong. The idea of "THIS SUBFORUM HAS SPOKEN SO IT MUST BE TRUE!" is misguided. If anything, they are prone to being less objective.

I agree that making 'mandatory' traits baseline is a slippery slope. Every class has at least one trait that feels like a critical must-have and and surely most should not be baseline. I'm sure every thief main would love for preparedness to be baseline for instance. It's true that nitiative costs are priced assuming preparedness will be equipped. However, there is a simpler solution for that trait than there is for fast hands, which is to replace preparedness and re-price initiative costs.

This gets at why fast hands should be baseline. Fast hands is so critical not because it 'feels better' but because warrior weapons are so specialized that they literally don't function without it. Just about every weapon on warrior would have to be reworked in order to function without fast hands whereas weapons on other classes typically have multiple functions. So in other words, there is no simple solution for replacing fast hands, which in it's current state, hamstrings warrior build diversity.

This would be less of an issue if warrior were in a good state in competitive modes, though warrior being good would just mask this problem. There are reasonable alternatives to the other traits in discipline (dogged march + lynx runes or warhorn in lieu of warrior's sprint, for example), but fast hands is irreplaceable.

Tl;dr - the assumption of fast hands is built into every warrior weapon and since there is no reasonable way to fix this, fast hands should be baseline. Being locked into discipline for one irreplaceable trait in literally every build destroys warrior build diversity.

Edited December 2, 2021 by covahlam.6391

[ens.9854]

7 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

You should probably go back to the previous threads about this to understand that what you've just said is incorrect. Claiming that if you're not limiting yourself to one class (~main) means you want to keep it weak also makes no sense.

Stating the argument with quotes and italics does not negate it, but what is written along with it does.

 

I main pvp thief, but play others. I am no strangers to players coming to the forums to headhunt for thief nerfs. Mesmers should also understand.

What is written is not an argument at all, just a blatant appeal to emotion. Anet can literally balance anything in the interest of gameplay.

[Sobx.1758]

5 minutes ago, covahlam.6391 said:

Tl;dr - the assumption of fast hands is built into every warrior weapon

Elaborate, because you keep repeating it but did nothing to show how this is true.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Sobx.1758]

8 minutes ago, ens.9854 said:

I main pvp thief, but play others. I am no strangers to players coming to the forums to headhunt for thief nerfs. Mesmers should also understand.

What is written is not an argument at all, just a blatant appeal to emotion. Anet can literally balance anything in the interest of gameplay.

"nothing matters, anet can do what they want", ok. That responds to nothing and works the same to literally anything anyone writes about any part of the game. You stating what you play in pvp also responds to nothing and I'm not sure why you've even decided to bring that up.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[ens.9854]

Do transitory balance concerns really trump improved gameplay?

 

This is only true if the amount of labor required to improve the gameplay is prohibitive. FH baseline would improve gameplay (and build diversity - a value add). It will in no way make warrior permanently unbalanceable. The only question is whether anet feels it is worth the time of the balance team, and whether they agree with the case being made.

 

This is becoming petty, so the thread might get locked.

Edited December 2, 2021 by ens.9854

[Sobx.1758]

7 minutes ago, ens.9854 said:

Do transitory balance concerns really trump improved gameplay?

 

This is only true if the amount of labor required to improve the gameplay is prohibitive. FH baseline would improve gameplay (and build diversity - a value add). It will in no way make warrior permanently unbalanceable. The only question is whether anet feels it is worth the time of the balance team, and whether they agree with the case being made.

Shorter/no weaponswap cd would make for an "improved gameplay" for every class with in-combat weaponswap, so if that's what you really think, it's weird you're not spamming threads for that to happen. 🤔 Pretty sure everyone will tell you they prefer playing with quickness/alac as well, because it makes the gameplay so much more ""smooth"", so quick/alac should be turned into a baseline effect for everyone!

It's almost as if your generalized claim just isn't true in multiplayer games.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Grand Marshal.4098]

Making FH baseline and leaving Discipline as is seems to spark controversy, which is why should this trait become baseline, it would be a good time to shuffle Discipline traits!

 

As if warrior will ever get reworked tho...

Edited December 2, 2021 by Grand Marshal.4098

[ens.9854]

2 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Shorter/no weaponswap cd would make for an "improved gameplay" for every class with in-combat weaponswap, so if that's what you really think, it's weird you're not spamming threads for that to happen. 🤔 It's almost as if your generalized claim just isn't true in multipleyer games.

This is incorrect. Eliminating differences between professions would actively make the game worse.

[Sobx.1758]

Just now, ens.9854 said:

This is incorrect. Eliminating differences between professions would actively make the game worse.

If you think weaponswap cd makes for the major difference between the professions then oh boy.

[covahlam.6391]

31 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Elaborate, because you keep repeating it but did nothing to show how this is true.

That's because this is an obvious point, as is the one implied by this thread, which is that warrior is broken without fast hands. Mace does nothing but cc, axe does nothing but damage. Neither allows you keep up with your target. Sword does but also doesn't do any damage. At the same time, none of these offers any defensive abilities outside of a single block (lul). So you take shield, which doesn't fix the problems above. Spending ten seconds in these sets is terrible. I'll concede that greatsword is better as it at least has damage, mobility, and an evade. It's also no coincidence that greatsword is the best pvp weapon warrior has.

Another thing to keep in mind is that removing damage from CC skills in competitive modes has exacerbated the hyper-focused nature of several warrior weapons. Hammer used to do decent damage but is now just a cc stick, and bull's charge formerly provided important supplementary damage. The feb 2020 patch made fast hands even more critical than before.

Edited December 2, 2021 by covahlam.6391

[Sobx.1758]

21 minutes ago, covahlam.6391 said:

That's because this is an obvious point, as is the one implied by this thread, which is that warrior is broken without fast hands. Mace does nothing but cc, axe does nothing but damage. Neither allows you keep up with your target. Sword does but also doesn't do any damage. At the same time, none of these offers any defensive abilities outside of a single block (lul). So you take shield, which doesn't fix the problems above. Spending ten seconds in these sets is terrible. I'll concede that greatsword is better as it at least has damage, mobility, and an evade. It's also no coincidence that greatsword is the best pvp weapon warrior has.

Another thing to keep in mind is that removing damage from CC skills in competitive modes has exacerbated the hyper-focused nature of several warrior weapons. Hammer used to do decent damage but is now just a cc stick, and bull's charge formerly provided important supplementary damage. The feb 2020 patch made fast hands even more critical than before.

You can mix main/offhand weapons. So no, what you've said about warrior somehow being designed around fh isn't true any more than it would be for other weapons/classes. And that's the point.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Lonecap.4105]

12 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

No, it doesn't -for the reasons stated many times in many threads before. 😄

Lets do this.

Tell me your main contentions. Warrior isn't comparable to other professions, so saying "other classes would also benefit" from fast hands is pointless, they have different mechanics and traits, and also they have more range than Warrior (130 on the largely majority of skills). Warrior must gapclose, must land very telegraphed hits (other classes aren't as telegraphed as Warrior, it is the MOST telegraphed). This simply isn't possible without discipline. Non-discipline builds (str/arms one shot signet GS berserker) can only frontload their damage, because the weapon lock is so egregious to warrior in Particular, because you don't have extra mechanics (Warrior is the "simplest" class, because the mechanics are so simple, it has hardly any function-key skills to use). Other classes have more range, more function-key skills, and ways that they simply don't require fast hands like Warrior does.

[Obtena.7952]

9 minutes ago, ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

Tell me your main contentions. 

That's a reasonable question. A contention (not sure it's the main one) is that Fast Hands is a meaningful choice as a trait and should remain so because ... that's the point of traits. If Warrior is so broken without choosing it (that's debatable BTW), then the answer is to determine alternative ways to fix that without downgrading trait choices. 

So the question back at everyone here is ... what makes Warrior so broken if they don't have FH? How does FH being baseline resolve with the idea that the trait system is founded on the idea of giving players meaningful choice and variation?

Actually, no one has discussed nerfing or removing FH if it's such a go to trait ... because that indicates it's too good. That's not off the table right?

Edited December 2, 2021 by Obtena.7952