What do you want for gunsaber?

[Lametoile.7394]

Hello fellow warriors,

There's been a lot of discussion around bladesworn lately. We talked a lot, mainly around dragon slash since that's the point. Though at the end I think it's mostly an issue of numbers.
However, I think we didn't talk that much about gunsaber itself.

Wether we like it our not, that's the true new weapon of the bladesworn. And the primary one at that, one we're stucked with. So, I think a fair part of Anet's job to reconcile us with Bladesworn (and I believe they can and wish them to do so with love) will be to adress the gunsaber's skills as well.

Thing is, I think that, despite cool concepts and decent animations, gunsaber, along with unsufficient strength, somehow lacks a theme and purpose.

For comparaisons, let's define quickly what make other damaging warrior's weapons what they are and why they work:
- Great sword: great mobility and evade, nice combination of a massive assault and a sudden finishing burst
- Dual axes: massive area damage, fast attacks and provide all offensive boons
- Hammer: aoe cc and weakness with slow, destructive blows

However, I'm not sure how to define the gunsaber. I have the feeling they wanted it to look like some polyvalent weapon with different flavours, which I get the idea since we're supposed to do almost all the work with it and dragon slash. However:
1) the lack of a core theme and proper traits to extend it prevent it from being special
2) gunsaber skills would be the perfect opportunity, not only to improve the bladesworn, but also finally give the warrior some tools he currently lack in his gameplay.

So I'm interested in your opinion:
 

 

• What do you think should be the theme and functionalities of the gunsaber as a weapon?

 

• Do you think one or more specific traits should be added to improve it, and if so what they should do?
• (that includes an indirect one, such as the most required explosion synergy trait)

 

• What changes would you thus bring to the current skills

 

 

My personnal thoughts: since bladesworn is mostly about dragon slash, gunsaber is supposed to be a weapon that PREPARES for that slash, unleashing its force and ammunition to give the Bladesworn momentum, distract ennemies and boost his upcoming strike. We already have a similar idea withe 4 armaments utilities, which, except flow stabilizer are basically all about "I protect myself and prevent the ennemy from reaching me the time to unleash my slash"
Playing the bladesworn, I also got the feeling of a rather tanky class, so I think the defensive aspect (of a warrior preparing his final blow) should be kept in mind)

(Currently in thoughts)

Reducing cooldowns and increasing attack speed are also basic necessities, I think most of us will agree on

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Gunsaber needs higher damage and more built in sustain.

The PvE damage numbers are what the Competitive damage numbers should be for instance. The competitive CDs need to be brought over to PvE. Tactical Reload needs to be deleted from the game and a party support skill put in it's place. This elite existing is part of why the Gunsaber CDs are so long in PvE.

Breakstep should clear chill and cripple on use.

Cyclone Trigger should be an evade, not a projectile block.

Blooming Fire's secondary explosions should be 900 range projectiles. This combined with Artillery Slash would let the set switch hit. 

After that there needs to be more trait interactions with Explosions. Things like blind targets struck by explosions, or weaken them, or cause them to beed, cause them to catch fire, or grant might per foe struck by an explosion.

[oscuro.9720]

Specific changes gun saber needs;

- Break step; increase range or give it an iframe. Clear movement impairing conditions.

- Blooming fire: increase damage. Increase range to 240-300. Current damage doesnt justify a 3/4 second cast time. The range feels short for an air explosion. Alternatively; change secondary explosions to projectiles that target enemies, like rev sword 2 used to be.

Specific changes traits and mechanics need:

- Remove flow as a requirement for charging bullets.

- Charged bullets decay at a set rate (1 every 5 seconds) instead of immediately if DT is cancelled

- Change first line of traits to on-explosion traits.

Example for on explosion traits; 

Blind foes hit by explosions

Gain Resistance when striking a foe with and explosion

Explosions deal increased damage (10%)

Gain might when hitting a foe with an explosion

Explosions remove boons

- Increase barrier granted by Unshakable Mountain by 50% (1200 instead of 800)

- Increase damage granted by Fierce as fire to 1.5% per stack

 

Note: this is only referencing competitive modes. 

 

[ens.9854]

I would like the autoattack improved. It should function similar to thief dagger (but with better damage) where autoattack 1-2 come out very quickly to encourage weaving it between skills, rather than the 'CC opponent and spam artillery slash' technique we have now.

Blooming Fire is okay, but again the aftercast should be shortened (the damage can still be delayed).

Artillery Slash is an odd one. I think because damage potential is so low elsewhere, we are encouraged to spam all the charges instead of using them as opportunity arises (after opp dodges, or while kiting). It is a very very good skill and might not need any changes if the rest of the kit is smoothed out, except maybe a slight increase in cripple duration.

Cyclone Trigger... needs some love. I could see it being given any number of additional utilities, like knock back, reflection duration improved, evasion, or shedding conditions, or given a lower cooldown so it is more available. Again we are pressured into using it simply for damage because the utility is minor and damage is hard to come by.

Break Step I have commented on elsewhere. It is laughable compared to GS's Rush. I don't mind it being a small boost with low damage, but it should not take >1 second for me to land an autoattack after using it. A 40 second recharge is also excessively punishing.

[Mesket.5728]

for once, not make it about the dragon slash. Its stupid. Just play core warrior and close your eyes for 5 seconds before pressing F1. It is basically the same.

 

the GUN saber, should be a hybrid weapon. Melee AND range. Skill 3 shouldn't have limited ammo and we should be able to attack with it as many as we want spamming range attacks. Get benefit from BOTH, GS trait and ranged weapons trait as it is just that, a hybrid. Supposedly so good you drop to many warrior goodies just to bring that. What is the point otherwise? why would anyone on their right mind swear an oath to this ridicule weapon? it's just a handicapped great sword with an even weaker burst in PVP. Also, all other skills should do more damage, be more agile and feel like a samurai if that is where they were going.

 

Utilities should be reworked completely. Even flow stabilizer, it shouldn't be necessary if flow was properly tuned. It makes no sense that the class is complete garbage to kill regular enemies. This whole spec have just one way of using it and that is prolonged fights. I can't believe they made a class more boring than Berserker for open world (who already is on downtime 90% of the time in open world).

 

and I'm not even getting into pistol... that thing don't even pass a student game design test as it is. It has no connection with any other warrior weapon except sword, which is a condi weapon with a power offhand. Srlsy, the thing is stupid from every point of view.

Edited December 3, 2021 by Mesket.5728

[Kodama.6453]

10 minutes ago, Mesket.5728 said:

and I'm not even getting into pistol... that thing don't even pass a student game design test as it is. It has no connection with any other warrior weapon except sword, which is a condi weapon with a power offhand. Srlsy, the thing is stupid from every point of view.

Isn't sword more of a hybrid weapon which also makes good use of power stats?

1.66 power coefficient on savage leap, 1.5-3.0 power coefficient on final thrust... Seems to make quite some good use of power stats. I also think it works decently well with axe....

[Mesket.5728]

3 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Isn't sword more of a hybrid weapon which also makes good use of power stats?

1.66 power coefficient on savage leap, 1.5-3.0 power coefficient on final thrust... Seems to make quite some good use of power stats. I also think it works decently well with axe....

its been a while since I don't use sword cause the animations are soooo bad on norns, it hurts my eyes to see him looking to the floor stabbing his toes. Even though, its not a full power weapon and its loosing damage because of bleeds applied.

It doesn't work well with axe, it might if Axe have its burst with mobility but as it is, it doesn't. I mean, Axe alone might work with anything because it is the best weapon we have and a very solid one but there isn't synergy between Axe and Pistol, unless you consider stepping back with pistol, throwing an axe, stepping back in with pistol a synergy. I think just throwing the axe in melee and having another axe offhand works many times better.

[Lametoile.7394]

19 minutes ago, Mesket.5728 said:

its been a while since I don't use sword cause the animations are soooo bad on norns, it hurts my eyes to see him looking to the floor stabbing his toes. Even though, its not a full power weapon and its loosing damage because of bleeds applied.

It doesn't work well with axe, it might if Axe have its burst with mobility but as it is, it doesn't. I mean, Axe alone might work with anything because it is the best weapon we have and a very solid one but there isn't synergy between Axe and Pistol, unless you consider stepping back with pistol, throwing an axe, stepping back in with pistol a synergy. I think just throwing the axe in melee and having another axe offhand works many times better.

It would surely be much better if pistol was actually on main hand...
We  would have the current skills plus any off-hand weapon we like, including the all-mighty off-hand axe and good old shield. Even warhorn why not?  Just increase gunstiger and dragon's roar ranges and we would have the possibility to kite with bullets and suddenly jump into battle in a hybrid fashion the warrior never had before.
Yeah, pistol MUST be a main weapon

[Lametoile.7394]

1 hour ago, oscuro.9720 said:

Specific changes gun saber needs;

- Break step; increase range or give it an iframe. Clear movement impairing conditions.

- Blooming fire: increase damage. Increase range to 240-300. Current damage doesnt justify a 3/4 second cast time. The range feels short for an air explosion. Alternatively; change secondary explosions to projectiles that target enemies, like rev sword 2 used to be.

Specific changes traits and mechanics need:

- Remove flow as a requirement for charging bullets.

- Charged bullets decay at a set rate (1 every 5 seconds) instead of immediately if DT is cancelled

- Change first line of traits to on-explosion traits.

Example for on explosion traits; 

Blind foes hit by explosions

Gain Resistance when striking a foe with and explosion

Explosions deal increased damage (10%)

Gain might when hitting a foe with an explosion

Explosions remove boons

- Increase barrier granted by Unshakable Mountain by 50% (1200 instead of 800)

- Increase damage granted by Fierce as fire to 1.5% per stack

 

Note: this is only referencing competitive modes. 

 

I don't think they would remove flow. Adrenaline have always be part of the warrior's gameplay and that would make a lot of traits and skills irrelevant. The best solution in my opinion should be to greatly increase base flow generation. Rooting is already a penalty by itself and we're too dependant on flow stabilizer.

If that's properly increased, they could actually indeed turn the first three traits into explosion synergies, while keeping the lines' themes (the bottom one is odd, but it can be reworked).

[Geoff Fey.1035]

Like mentioned above, Blooming Fire & Artillery Slash being reworked to be a bit more of ranged attacks, in addition to Break Step being a better gap closer (damage on END rather than the nonsensical damage on start) would be moves in a great direction.

I feel giving Explosions different effects based on traits (noted in other threads) would also add the different effects (sustain, support, condi, power) that people are looking for without requiring massive reworks to the entire spec.

[ens.9854]

Artillery Slash is already CRACKED. It carries the entire set. Can hit 360, good damage, no aftercast, 3 ammo, ranged cripple. If they look at this skill again it is getting nerfed for sure. It plays so well that it is the reason I think the aftercast of other skills should be brought down (in combination with duration of AA1 reduced).

[Infusion.7149]

Gemstore skins /s

I don't know if people realize this but gunsaber cooldowns are actually lower in WVW/PVP than PVE. Any complaints with respect to its usage are going to boil down to burst. There shouldn't be a 20 (max) coefficient in  PVE and some lousy 1.2 or something in WVW. With the coefficients so low the Daring Dragon trait might as well not exist in competitive. Running full glass the highest I was able to burst was ~9-12K on golem yesterday with "normal" Unyielding Dragon.

Damage:
Dragon Slash - Force : with 2971 power chat link lists 423 min and 1023 max damage in WVW
Dragon Slash—Reach : With 2971 power in WVW it has 296 chat link min damage and 717 max damage
Dragon Slash—Boost: With 2971 power it has 339 chat link for min damage with 819 max damage in WVW

In comparison: Arcing Slice on Spellbreaker with Burst Mastery, 2300 power has ~800 chat link with ~1195 damage vs <50%

FYI , recharges:
Blooming Fire: 25s in PVE , 10s in WVW/PVP
Artillery Slash: 35s in PVE , 15s in WVW/PVP
Cyclone Trigger: 40s in pVE, 20s in WVW/PVP
Break step : 40s in PVE, 20s in WVW/PVP

Edited December 3, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Jzaku.9765]

Just give me literally Ranger GS with different sfx.

Give me an immob/stun on Artillery Slash(3) that sets up Blooming Fire(2). While we're at it, bump Blooming Fire explosion damage up a bit.

Change Cyclone Trigger(4) to a block like Ranger's, I don't even care about a flipover skill. 

And lower these utterly ridiculous CDs. skills 2/3/4/5 have 25/35/40/40 second CDs. What the heck?

[erapago.4387]

Drop it entirely in favour of mainhand pistol and ranged pistol offhand skills.

[Smoosh.2718]

I probably sound like a dead horse saying this but:

I want a mainhand pistol and less 'homage's' to hold back the class from creative design.

(you know my stance on Emoji confused reactors. Comment on what confuses you or your opinion means nothing.)

Edited December 4, 2021 by Smoosh.2718

[Vancho.8750]

I have the best idea ever, take an op weapon set and put it as gunsabre. So Gs + shield and even better Ranger GS , one to one copy, bam gunsabre saved bladsworn works.

 

 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Vancho.8750 said:

I have the best idea ever, take an op weapon set and put it as gunsabre. So Gs + shield and even better Ranger GS , one to one copy, bam gunsabre saved bladsworn works.

 

 

Changing GS4 to be an evade, GS2 to have 900 range projectiles, and a trait that causes explosions to blind foes would handle all that.

 

By GS I was meaning Gunsaber in case context clues eluded whoever.

Edited December 4, 2021 by Lan Deathrider.5910

[Dadnir.5038]

- Raise AA chain damage and attack speed to at least Greatsword level (Axe level would be even better). Explosive thrust at 3/4 cast time is just a "feel bad" skill on a melee AA chain. A slow AA on a weapon is what tend to drive me away from it personally.

- Increase breakstep range to at least 600.

- Make cyclone trigger block all attack for it's 1.5s frame, not just projectiles.

- Give a second charge to dragonspike mine. (wishful thinking, I know...)

 

[oscuro.9720]

2 hours ago, Vancho.8750 said:

I have the best idea ever, take an op weapon set and put it as gunsabre. So Gs + shield and even better Ranger GS , one to one copy, bam gunsabre saved bladsworn works.

 

 

So porting over the capabilities of ranger greatsword (a good template for a jack-of-all-trades high performing power weapon i think), it would look like;

blooming fire has maul-level damage with some sort of additional effect (like blind),

break step has its range increased and is an evade like swoop,

cyclone trigger has a block like Counterattack,

artillery slash remains the same because it’s a great skill. 
Sound about right?

[Vancho.8750]

14 hours ago, oscuro.9720 said:

So porting over the capabilities of ranger greatsword (a good template for a jack-of-all-trades high performing power weapon i think), it would look like;

blooming fire has maul-level damage with some sort of additional effect (like blind),

break step has its range increased and is an evade like swoop,

cyclone trigger has a block like Counterattack,

artillery slash remains the same because it’s a great skill. 
Sound about right?

Yep, the gunsabre should be so good as Ranger GS that if it was separate weapon you would want to take in on any build. The utility on it should be so amazing that you would want to take it on a support or condi build even though it doesn't have a drop of support or conditions. Just like shield complements any build on PVP.

[Vancho.8750]

Hand another Idea. I think the first column of the traitline should be made all about gunsabre like the grandmaster is for the trigger, where it changes how the sabre works the way mechanist mech traits work, so you have 3 different sabres that do different jobs, support, range and the current one. This opens up the build options over the you play this exact build everywhere that is the current situation.

[Kodama.6453]

14 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

Hand another Idea. I think the first column of the traitline should be made all about gunsabre like the grandmaster is for the trigger, where it changes how the sabre works the way mechanist mech traits work, so you have 3 different sabres that do different jobs, support, range and the current one. This opens up the build options over the you play this exact build everywhere that is the current situation.

Interesting idea, but requires quite some work since they would have to design 2 complete new weapon sets for ranged and support version.

Also, isn't "ranged gunsaber" basically just.... a gun?

[Vancho.8750]

22 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Interesting idea, but requires quite some work since they would have to design 2 complete new weapon sets for ranged and support version.

Also, isn't "ranged gunsaber" basically just.... a gun?

They can copy some weapon skill in the game from other weapons already in the game, seems it is not that big of a deal with all the reuse of the animation.
See a ranged gunsabre is a gun that shoots sabers, totally different from normal guns.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Ranged Gunsaber would be like how Tremor works, melee attack that also fires off a projectile where both are separate attacks.

 

But yeah toggling three different bars depending on the trait taken sounds like a great idea. Top trait is the base Gunsaber now, but with lower PvE CDs and higher damage overall.

Middle trait would be a more defensive set with blocks and evades.

Bottom set would give ranged components to the skills.

 

And no it wouldn't have to be 10 new skills, just add the effects to each of the current skills. GunSaber 4 and 5 would be evades, and Gunsaber 2 could be a short block on the defense set, but damage is lowered 15% from the current values. Same CDs as now.

Top trait again is the current bar but with 20% more damage. 20% lower CDs from the current values in PvE.

Bottom trait is current CDs and damage values, but Gunsaber AA, 2, and 4 all gain 900 range projectiles on top of the melee swings. GunSaber 3 gets an extra ammo charge. Breakstep would be unchanged.

[Infusion.7149]

I haven't seen any mention on merging all PvE cooldowns with the lower PvP/WvW cooldowns on gunsaber as I hinted at in my last post in this thread. Sad.

Anyway my point from earlier still stands: the reward from running the spec is too low for the channel because of the "second order polynomial" calculation on Dragon Trigger. If I get 10K damage on a dragon trigger in the same time I could have put out 2 Decapitates or an Arc Divider/Gun Flame... it's not good.