What is best gear for condi thief?

[EpicName.4523]

I wanted to finish certain achievement (fearful) where you have to kill an enemy with as few attacks as possible. I watched a video of a guy using trailblazer gear. 

In order to finish the same achievement I crafted a dire set , including daggers and it worked pretty well. Simply copied metabattle condi daredevil build with dire instead of trailblazer.

On the forums, I have seen people suggesting carrion. 

Vallun made a video not too long ago using celestial. 

 

In the end, what stats to go for as condi thief? The idea is to primarily focus on open world and achievements, but if it works in say, WvW, it would only be a plus. So carrion, dire, trailblazer or celestial and maybe a build suggestion to go with it?

[Zacchary.6183]

I go with carrion to use vitality as a damage buffer.

[BobbyT.7192]

If they ever come out with trailblazer stat with expertise being the bigger stat instead of toughness that would be probably become meta for alot of condion builds.

[Tdub.7628]

 

5 hours ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

I go with carrion to use vitality as a damage buffer

How does vitality boost dmg on a thief? I didn't know this.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

2 hours ago, tswehr.2143 said:

 

How does vitality boost dmg on a thief? I didn't know this.

He means as a buffer against damage, not a buff to damage. 

In general, Dire will be your best defensive set, carrion will be the most offensive hybrid set, and celestial is the defensive hybrid set. Tbh you can't go too far wrong with any of the sets you listed as long as you understand the limitations of each and choose runes and sigils that compliment the gear, for instance, condi duration runes for carrion or might/boon duration with strength sigil for celestial. I'd argue that a carrion/viper mix is the best all round set as it works with both daredevil and deadeye and it won't get you focussed as much as dire will because of the toughness in PvE. 

Edit: Keep the dire gear handy though, in WvW it will be better than carrion unless you really know what you're doing. 

Edited December 9, 2021 by Jugglemonkey.8741

[EpicName.4523]

What about trailblazer?

[saerni.2584]

Depending on your content a lot of combinations work. 
 

In PvE the standard answer is to use Vipers for max damage. Mixing carrion in will increase your survivability. If you want a good mix of medium damage and survival then celestial is a solid choice, but Dire/TB gear will work out well enough (lower damage) if you are looking for higher amounts of HP with decent condi damage output. 
 

In WvW you can go the celestial route or mix carrion and vipers (also consider Rampagers stats for some extra crit if you want that). 

[Zacchary.6183]

10 hours ago, tswehr.2143 said:

 

How does vitality boost dmg on a thief? I didn't know this.

Carrion is Condition damage major with minor power and vitality (it shouldn't raise damage lol) so you'll be dealing plenty of damage. Most of your duration will come from runes, sigils and traits. Though playstyles vary I usually go for Krait runes because I use d/d conditions.

Edited December 9, 2021 by Zacchary.6183

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

For PVE open world I've been using Viper this whole time.  It seems frail at first, but for the condi Daredevil spec it spams so many evades that most things can't hit me.  

[EpicName.4523]

Nobody mentioned sinister. Has condi as a major stat, power and precision. Isn't that better than carrion?

[saerni.2584]

4 minutes ago, EpicName.4523 said:

Nobody mentioned sinister. Has condi as a major stat, power and precision. Isn't that better than carrion?

Sinister is something that could certainly work, but people often want a bit of expertise so they go with Viper stats instead. All of those glassy stats (no vitality or toughness) are just trade offs between different options for major and minor stats. 
 

Carrion will do less damage than Sinister, but Carrion will be more durable due to high HP. And, when you are going glass the extra boost to duration from expertise (ie Viper) will add more dps overall than Sinister.

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

On 12/10/2021 at 3:54 PM, saerni.2584 said:

Sinister is something that could certainly work, but people often want a bit of expertise so they go with Viper stats instead. All of those glassy stats (no vitality or toughness) are just trade offs between different options for major and minor stats. 
 

Carrion will do less damage than Sinister, but Carrion will be more durable due to high HP. And, when you are going glass the extra boost to duration from expertise (ie Viper) will add more dps overall than Sinister.

after playing with you for a couple of years, i can fully support this after all of our testing on p/d condi deadeye, mix and matching can help fit anyone's playstyle. more vitality or toughness can help you outlast your opponent and gives breathing room for error. helps defeat goin "sweaty"

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

On 12/10/2021 at 7:01 AM, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

For PVE open world I've been using Viper this whole time.  It seems frail at first, but for the condi Daredevil spec it spams so many evades that most things can't hit me.  

Viper is ideal for trash mobs and instanced content. Trailblazer's is superior when soloing tougher content, because some guys (like Vemyen) will be killing you in a single hit, otherwise. Doesn't matter if you're able to dodge well - when you got a boss + 10 ads hitting at you, you're bound to get hit between evade frames at some point.

Plus, it doesn't really aid you in maximizing your dps rotations if you have to be dodging every single attack. 

Edited December 16, 2021 by NorthernRedStar.3054

[Jobber.6348]

On 12/10/2021 at 12:45 AM, saerni.2584 said:

Depending on your content a lot of combinations work. 
 

In PvE the standard answer is to use Vipers for max damage. Mixing carrion in will increase your survivability. If you want a good mix of medium damage and survival then celestial is a solid choice, but Dire/TB gear will work out well enough (lower damage) if you are looking for higher amounts of HP with decent condi damage output. 
 

In WvW you can go the celestial route or mix carrion and vipers (also consider Rampagers stats for some extra crit if you want that). 

Could also try Greiving. Greiving is pretty funny if mixed into a Viper base. 
I personally run a Trailblazer trinkets + Greiving Armor and Weapons. 

Edited January 6, 2022 by Yasai.3549
Edit: Not mixed up stat names*

[Sifu.9745]

I have a question: Do i really need crit as condi Thief in open world? I would like to try out D/D + SB condi Daredevil for open world only.

I don't want to go full glassy (so no Viper, no Sinister). I also don't want to go full defensive, so no Trailblazer, no Dire. I also hate mixing different type of gear, so one type of gear only:)

 

I guess it takes ages before you kill a single mob with Trailblazer gear? Also i don't like to focus on condi only: #3 and AA spam, that's a bit boring. With Power added i can also use #2 and stealth attack. I am looking for a Carrion or Celestial i guess. Rabid could be an option too, but i really don't know what to do with Precision, because condi Daredevil Thief is probably the only spec that doesn't support any crit builds (maybe condi Guardian is another exception?).

 

I could only focus on crit with Celestial gear, which also gives Ferocity stat: 192%. So 35% base crit with full Celestial, add 7% from Sigil of Accuracy + 7 or 8% from Signet of agility = 50% crit. I can also take Thrill of the crime trait in Trickery and i can get 75% crit for 14 seconds. Not bad for an condi Thief i guess? But my condi dmg would be much lower than Carrion condi dmg ... Also Carrion has way more Power than Celestial, doesn't even need crit ... Celestial crit is just slighty higher dmg than Carrion non crit ... As Carrion i can only focus on condi duration sigils and runes.

 

I really can't decide.  What do you think, which one is better dmg: Carrion or Celestial? And which gives more Survivability?

 

Edited September 2, 2022 by Sifu.9745

[ASP.8093]

5 hours ago, Sifu.9745 said:

I really can't decide.  What do you think, which one is better dmg: Carrion or Celestial? And which gives more Survivability?

Carrion kinda sucks for PvE, imo.

Power without crits is pretty weak, Vitality gives you a bigger hp buffer but doesn't actually help sustain much, Condition Damage without Expertise is basically leaving 50% of your potential damage output on the floor.

Against PvE enemies (who don't cleanse), Trailblazers can out-damage Carrion while providing better sustain as well. Celestial probably will as well, as long as you have any decent source of Might in your build. (Celestial will also give you better sustain than Carrion.)

And if all you're getting is Vitality, you can use a Level 10 Jade Bot to mitigate some of the fragility of Viper's and roll that instead.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

17 hours ago, Sifu.9745 said:

I have a question: Do i really need crit as condi Thief in open world? I would like to try out D/D + SB condi Daredevil for open world only.

I don't want to go full glassy (so no Viper, no Sinister). I also don't want to go full defensive, so no Trailblazer, no Dire. I also hate mixing different type of gear, so one type of gear only:)

 

I guess it takes ages before you kill a single mob with Trailblazer gear? Also i don't like to focus on condi only: #3 and AA spam, that's a bit boring. With Power added i can also use #2 and stealth attack. I am looking for a Carrion or Celestial i guess. Rabid could be an option too, but i really don't know what to do with Precision, because condi Daredevil Thief is probably the only spec that doesn't support any crit builds (maybe condi Guardian is another exception?).

 

I could only focus on crit with Celestial gear, which also gives Ferocity stat: 192%. So 35% base crit with full Celestial, add 7% from Sigil of Accuracy + 7 or 8% from Signet of agility = 50% crit. I can also take Thrill of the crime trait in Trickery and i can get 75% crit for 14 seconds. Not bad for an condi Thief i guess? But my condi dmg would be much lower than Carrion condi dmg ... Also Carrion has way more Power than Celestial, doesn't even need crit ... Celestial crit is just slighty higher dmg than Carrion non crit ... As Carrion i can only focus on condi duration sigils and runes.

 

I really can't decide.  What do you think, which one is better dmg: Carrion or Celestial? And which gives more Survivability?

 

Honestly it depends what elite specs you are running, and what duration thresholds you want to hit. Something you need to take into account with condis is that damage is only applied every second, so if you want extra damage from more duration you need to make sure you have enough to hit the next full second's tick. For example, if your main condi applying skill applies 2s of poison, you want 50% or 100% extra poison duration to get more damage. Having 90% means your condis drop off before the tick and you get no more damage than if you had 50%. Taking a full set of duration gear (viper, trailblazer or celestial) with +duration runes (thorns for poison etc) and trickery for the expertise from lead attacks is enough to get to 100%, so think about that as you make your gear choice. 

 

You don't need crit chance on core, daredevil or specter but it's pretty important for deadeye to get at least 50% crit after fury as crits fuel your malice generation on initiative costing skills (assuming you're running pistol/dagger and spamming repeater, the multi hit nature of the skill means 30% base crit chance is plenty). I'd probably go rabid armour with trailblazer trinkets and viper weapons for deadeye and see how you go, you'll want expertise infusions to get 100% condi duration though because of the loss of duration from rabid. 

 

Specter and deadeye both benefit nicely from full celestial because they can both self buff to 25 might. Specter relies on battle/strength sigils with shroud proccing the on swap sigil along with a few shroud autos, deadeye gets might from strength sigil, sneak attacks (deadly arts, middle choice top option) and from getting max malice with maleficent 7 (deadeye grandmaster, top choice). Specter also performs strongly on trailblazer and on ritualist gear. kittenredevil with dual pistols is very strong on celestial or trailblazer right now, using the smoke fields from pistol 5 along with the bound dodge to get leaps for stealth.

 

Viper, grieving, sinister, carrion and plaguedoctor are all good but not really worth making a full build out of because they either lack enough vitality or enough expertise compared to celestial and trailblazer. Better to mix and match these stats into a celestial/trailblazer base. 

[Sifu.9745]

Thx guys. I think i will go with Celestial, mainly because with Trailblazer d/d Daredevil i am limited on spamming #3 and AA chain. And Trailblazer seems too slow on killing non elite mobs: no burst dmg at all. It's only good for fighting tough champions. With Celestial i can also use Stealth (Cloak and dagger) and Backstab + #2 to finish off low health non elite mobs. Also, as Jugglemonkey has mentioned, celestial suits Specter and Deadeye playstyle.

 

Edit: do you know, approximately, for how much lower the dmg in Celestial gear would be compared to Viper's gear? 30% or even lower? I also play Sw/D Celestial Weaver and the dmg part is not bad at all. I have no idea what to expect for condi Daredevil.

[Squeesidhe.4761]

I had the choice of Ascended gear yesterday and chose Viper because Trailblazer didn't sound cool enough. Fashion Wars 4 Life

 

 

[Valisha.8650]

Perhaps Celestial Specter

[ASP.8093]

2 hours ago, Sifu.9745 said:

Edit: do you know, approximately, for how much lower the dmg in Celestial gear would be compared to Viper's gear? 30% or even lower? I also play Sw/D Celestial Weaver and the dmg part is not bad at all. I have no idea what to expect for condi Daredevil.

It's a bit hard to say for solo builds, because it depends on your Might generation. (Might boosts both strike and condi damage, and your Cele gears' boon duration bonus also increases your ability to keep that Might stacked up.)

 

For example, the Cele Pistol-Devil build people play in WvW often uses Aristocracy runes to gain 5 Might every time it inflicts Weakness (Daredevil inflict Weakness after every dodge). They can very quickly end up at 15-25 Might, and keep it up for quite a while. This isn't necessarily what you'd want for PvE, because you're trading away the potential DPS of something like the Nightmare rune (which is stronger in PvE where enemies can have way more than ~30k hp and don't cleanse conditions).

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

2 hours ago, Sifu.9745 said:

Thx guys. I think i will go with Celestial, mainly because with Trailblazer d/d Daredevil i am limited on spamming #3 and AA chain. And Trailblazer seems too slow on killing non elite mobs: no burst dmg at all. It's only good for fighting tough champions. With Celestial i can also use Stealth (Cloak and dagger) and Backstab + #2 to finish off low health non elite mobs. Also, as Jugglemonkey has mentioned, celestial suits Specter and Deadeye playstyle.

 

Edit: do you know, approximately, for how much lower the dmg in Celestial gear would be compared to Viper's gear? 30% or even lower? I also play Sw/D Celestial Weaver and the dmg part is not bad at all. I have no idea what to expect for condi Daredevil.

It all depends on might stacks now, if you can maintain 25 might you'll actually do more damage than a viper build with no might because you'll have the same condi damage but better crits. That's why celestial is so strong in WvW roaming right now. 

 

There are better runes and gear sets for fractals and raids, but if this is just for open world then I would take aristocracy runes if you're going full celestial on daredevil. The minor daredevil trait weakening strikes will spam weakness, the runes give might when you apply weakness meaning if you put a strength sigil on your daggers you're going to be on 25 might with roughly 90% might duration just by alternating dodge and dagger 3. Take the lotus dodge for more bleed and torment, and spam dagger 2 with full might stacks to finish stuff faster. Fireworks runes are also a good choice if you want something that will be useful on all the thief elite specs, you'll still get might from the tune but also move speed and an easier time capping fury. 

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

43 minutes ago, ASP.8093 said:

It's a bit hard to say for solo builds, because it depends on your Might generation. (Might boosts both strike and condi damage, and your Cele gears' boon duration bonus also increases your ability to keep that Might stacked up.)

 

For example, the Cele Pistol-Devil build people play in WvW often uses Aristocracy runes to gain 5 Might every time it inflicts Weakness (Daredevil inflict Weakness after every dodge). They can very quickly end up at 15-25 Might, and keep it up for quite a while. This isn't necessarily what you'd want for PvE, because you're trading away the potential DPS of something like the Nightmare rune (which is stronger in PvE where enemies can have way more than ~30k hp and don't cleanse conditions).

Ha, you beat me to it xD

[Sifu.9745]

One more question about Superior Rune of the Aristocracy on Celestial gear .... When some elite monsters, Champions, Bosses are immune to Weakness and other cc, will i still get Might? If not, than Superior Rune of the Krait might be a better option i guess ...

Edited September 4, 2022 by Sifu.9745

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

I think it depends if it appears under their healthbar after application. If it does, even when grayed out due to immunity, it should count for purpose of the rune/trait.