Do Dungeons Need a Nerf? A viewpoint on the New Player Experience

[Tails.9372]

Indeed there are some dungeon paths that could use some nerfing. In particular in the T1 section of the "Fractals of the Mists" dungeon:

The amount of adds during the last boss of the "Siren's Reef" dungeon path should be limited to one elite and two veterans. Also, the amount of CC spam from the boss (namely her daze) should be drastically reduced.

Furthermore for the "Sunqua Peak" path both the amount of damage and the burning stacks of the meteor attack in the second phase of the last boss should be cut in half.

[Shikaru.7618]

1 hour ago, Tails.9372 said:

Indeed there are some dungeon paths that could use some nerfing. In particular in the T1 section of the "Fractals of the Mists" dungeon:

The amount of adds during the last boss of the "Siren's Reef" dungeon path should be limited to one elite and two veterans. Also, the amount of CC spam from the boss (namely her daze) should be drastically reduced.

Furthermore for the "Sunqua Peak" path both the amount of damage and the burning stacks of the meteor attack in the second phase of the last boss should be cut in half.

Why though? You don't get dazed if you avoid the cone or bring stability. You get 0 stacks of burning if you jump/dodge the meteors and Shockwave properly. Just because it's t1 doesn't mean we should reinforce that getting hit is ok.

[Tails.9372]

34 minutes ago, Shikaru.7618 said:

Why though?

Because difficulty should stay relatively consistent within the respective tiers. The two paths are noticeably out of line with the rest of T1 and are even above most of T2 in that regard. The point of T1 is not to push new players to their limit but to introduce them to the content. The fact that many players consistently skip these two fractals is rather contraproductive.

Also: "Just because it's t1 doesn't mean we should reinforce that getting hit is ok." is a rather disingenuous response here. Going by that logic all T1 fractals that don't wipe your average T1 group rather consistently would then also somehow "reinforce that getting hit is ok" which is obviously nonsense.

Edited December 24, 2021 by Tails.9372

[Defias.1892]

5 hours ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

What?  As a veteran player, I'm well aware of how most, if not all dungeon paths (Outside of Arah) take maybe 30 minutes at most if you're carrying a bunch of newbies through the path and that, an optimized build for damage will decimate any and all dungeons that scale you back to 65 or lower due to how this game's scaling system works.  There's zero need for dungeons to be nerfed.  They're in 2014 game balance and have never been adjusted since.

 

Dungeons are designed to be done in a group.  Always have been.  So the fact that they're difficult to solo, duo, or do as a group of at-level players, isn't an issue.  It also shows them that they have to get better be it build or skill, to get better rewards.  Believe it or not, Dungeons are actually more profitable than they were pre HoT by rewarding more tokens and giving out more gold if you do 8 different paths in the day.

 

Okay Mr.Veteran player, when was the last time you did a dungeon? Exactly. Dungeons, like you've said, haven't been touched or updated since 2014, and is abandoned content at this point and the entire community knows it. If Anet is unwilling to revamp dungeons, then the least they could nerf it so new players could enjoy it without pulling their hair out. 

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

15 hours ago, Defias.1892 said:

 

Okay Mr.Veteran player, when was the last time you did a dungeon?

The last time I played.  Which was 3 days ago.

EDIT: I did 8 paths because 5g is 5g and it's only about 30 minutes.

Edited December 24, 2021 by Sir Alymer.3406

[Cyninja.2954]

7 hours ago, Defias.1892 said:

 

Okay Mr.Veteran player, when was the last time you did a dungeon? Exactly. Dungeons, like you've said, haven't been touched or updated since 2014, and is abandoned content at this point and the entire community knows it. If Anet is unwilling to revamp dungeons, then the least they could nerf it so new players could enjoy it without pulling their hair out. 

 

They have effectively nerfed dungeons. 

 

After 2 expansions worth of power creep elites, 1 addition of higher tier gear (dungeons were designed with exotic in mind) and the addition/change of more powerful stat combinations, runes and sigils, dungeons have been effectively nerfed in relation to what players can achieve power wise.

 

There even was a rebalance for open world a few years back (making players hit for less and adjusting world boss hitpoints up) to accomodate the drastically reduced ttk of pve enemies to actually allow players to get in more than 1 hit.

 

Dungeons are abandoned content and as far as difficulty, they have only been getting easier and easier (not to mention the tons of guides available for players who might be struggling but are unwilling to learn themselves) ever since. 

There, your wish was already granted.

Edited December 24, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[Shikaru.7618]

On 12/23/2021 at 8:05 PM, Tails.9372 said:

Because difficulty should stay relatively consistent within the respective tiers. The two paths are noticeably out of line with the rest of T1 and are even above most of T2 in that regard. The point of T1 is not to push new players to their limit but to introduce them to the content. The fact that many players consistently skip these two fractals is rather contraproductive.

Also: "Just because it's t1 doesn't mean we should reinforce that getting hit is ok." is a rather disingenuous response here. Going by that logic all T1 fractals that don't wipe your average T1 group rather consistently would then also somehow "reinforce that getting hit is ok" which is obviously nonsense.

But they don't wipe you. Getting hit by the cone and meteor in t1 does fairly light damage. It takes repeated failure for you to actually die. If people in t1 cant figure out that a giant glowing orange aoe is not something they should stand in, im sorry but they probably arent going to succeed anywhere. If anything anet should highlight aoe, stability, reflects and blinds, condi cleanse with a giant arrow that says "USE THESE SKILLS FOREHEAD."

[anbujackson.9564]

There is nothing that needs nerfing in the dungeons or fractals. Powercreep is so high that stuff melts in seconds while you can facetank a lot because of high boon uptimes.

The only thing that need to be done is an overall damage output decrease by at least 15-20 %. But then people would simply argue that fights only take longer and nothing changes except that with longer fights you actually have to do more mechanics... which get skipped completely nowadays and yes that would change a lot. But we cant deal with intended encounter mechanics right? Its just more "fun" to ignore everything.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

9 hours ago, Defias.1892 said:

I'm pretty good at the game, I probably have more ap than you tbh. Not good enough to carry 4 new players through a dungeon. But probably better than you.

Edit: Just checked your profile, I definitely have more AP than you

Bruh.
"I'm good, but not good enough to carry newbies through content that hasn't been updated to current year game balance and DPS since 2014."

Also AP hasn't been a good measure of skill since the dawn of the game.  It didn't work when dungeons were popular content done every day on farm and it still doesn't work today.  All AP is, is an inaccurate measurement of how long you've been playing the game.

 

Quote

I'm not going to insult you because you've done enough of that here in your signature: [link redacted]

Well you shouldn't because it's against the rules.

[Krzysztof.5973]

18 hours ago, Defias.1892 said:

I'm pretty good at the game, I probably have more ap than you tbh. Not good enough to carry 4 new players through a dungeon. But probably better than you.

Edit: Just checked your profile, I definitely have more AP than you

I don't think you have more AP than anymore here... As somebody already mentioned, AP is bad indicator of whether you are capable to "carry" people through dungeons or not... 

[voltaicbore.8012]

Powers that be, please delete this thread. OP already noted on page 1 that this entire idea of his was based on just Arah, which are not representative of dungeons as a whole (not that Arah is that hard, anyways. Just a step up mechanically compared to other dungeons).

Dungeons have been maligned enough over the years, let them rest in peace so us Dungeon Frequenters can quietly farm them in peace.

[Defias.1892]

18 hours ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Bruh.
"I'm good, but not good enough to carry newbies through content that hasn't been updated to current year game balance and DPS since 2014."

Also AP hasn't been a good measure of skill since the dawn of the game.  It didn't work when dungeons were popular content done every day on farm and it still doesn't work today.  All AP is, is an inaccurate measurement of how long you've been playing the game.

 

Well you shouldn't because it's against the rules.

 

9 hours ago, Krzysztof.5973 said:

I don't think you have more AP than anymore here... As somebody already mentioned, AP is bad indicator of whether you are capable to "carry" people through dungeons or not... 

 

Point still stands tbh. If you don't have anything constructive to add to the conversation, please refrain from posting .

Edited January 1, 2022 by Defias.1892

[Cryect.1780]

8 hours ago, Krzysztof.5973 said:

I don't think you have more AP than anymore here... As somebody already mentioned, AP is bad indicator of whether you are capable to "carry" people through dungeons or not... 

 

True, the worst players link their LI's in their signature because they want to show off how much they paid to get carried through content lul. APs/LIs don't mean kitten

Edited January 1, 2022 by Cryect.1780

[Krzysztof.5973]

6 hours ago, Defias.1892 said:

 

 

Point still stands tbh. If you don't have anything constructive to add to the conversation, please refrain from posting .

You insult people based on their signatures, collecting warning points and I am the one not giving constructive feedback? Good joke 😔

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

6 hours ago, Defias.1892 said:

 

 

Point still stands tbh. If you don't have anything constructive to add to the conversation, please refrain from posting .

You want to play this game?
Image:
https://i.imgur.com/rcd5E2T.png
Source:
https://leaderboards.guildwars2.com/en/na/achievements/world/Tarnished Coast?page=11

In fact, you should probably be ashamed that these so called low AP newbies can do dungeons better than you. 😂

Edited January 2, 2022 by Sir Alymer.3406

[Sigmoid.7082]

People using AP to argue how good they are, and about dungeons too ... Man this takes me back like 7-8 years.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

48 minutes ago, Sigmoid.7082 said:

People using AP to argue how good they are, and about dungeons too ... Man this takes me back like 7-8 years.

Let us be nostalgic for a few minutes, dang it.

New Visions of the Past
"LF 3 War, 1 ele, 1  mes, CoF P1 Speedrun 10k AP or kick"

Edited January 2, 2022 by Sir Alymer.3406

[Krzysztof.5973]

14 hours ago, Cryect.1780 said:

 

True, the worst players link their LI's in their signature because they want to show off how much they paid to get carried through content lul. APs/LIs don't mean kitten

Same server as OP and less AP also this post and one from Defias were 10 min apart... I'm quite sure that is your alt account. That's an oof 😔
And no need to lie about my actual AP count, it only looks worse for you.

[Sobx.1758]

On 12/31/2021 at 8:53 PM, Defias.1892 said:

I probably have more ap than you tbh.

That's... really irrelevant to anything here, including your claim about "being better".

[Cryect.1780]

ITT: People with high AP don't think dungeons should be nerfed, and instead tell new players to "get good". Also these are the same players who wonder why dungeons are dead

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

Just now, Cryect.1780 said:

ITT: People with high AP don't think dungeons should be nerfed, and instead tell new players to "get good". Also these are the same players who wonder why dungeons are dead

ITT: People who don't understand that dungeons haven't been updated for any game balance since 2014 and are, in fact, easier than t1 fractals due to this fact.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

14 minutes ago, Cryect.1780 said:

ITT: People with high AP don't think dungeons should be nerfed, and instead tell new players to "get good". Also these are the same players who wonder why dungeons are dead

Other than Arah Dungeons don't really have anything that can be considered "difficult". 

[Shikaru.7618]

25 minutes ago, Cryect.1780 said:

ITT: People with high AP don't think dungeons should be nerfed, and instead tell new players to "get good". Also these are the same players who wonder why dungeons are dead

Any particular reason why new players shouldn't get good. The game isn't asking new players to get a PhD in quantum physics. The difficulty is akin to elementary grade math with the exception of maybe Arah. Dungeons are dead because of irrelevant rewards so player time is better suited to farm other content.

[Cryect.1780]

53 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

ITT: People who don't understand that dungeons haven't been updated for any game balance since 2014 and are, in fact, easier than t1 fractals due to this fact.

 

If it hasn't been updated for 8 years, then there's no reason to play them. Even a nerf or balance changes will cause more players to check it out. Else, dungeons are effectively dead

 

24 minutes ago, Shikaru.7618 said:

Any particular reason why new players shouldn't get good. The game isn't asking new players to get a PhD in quantum physics. The difficulty is akin to elementary grade math with the exception of maybe Arah. Dungeons are dead because of irrelevant rewards so player time is better suited to farm other content.

 

The problem is that, 8 years ago, dungeons and raids were "hard" and required "getting good". Now they aren't. We have Strike missions, raids, and other high-end PVE achievements to demonstrate how "good" a player can get. I would get into the game design aspects of it, but essentially not updating or streamlining the less popular content just confuses new players, and it's easy for them to get overwhelmed by the vast amount of content that exists in GW2.  Dungeons, despite how old they are, have been untouched mostly, and take longer than they need to, for outdated rewards.  Contrast this to Final Fantasy 14, where the game is extremely streamlined, and all players, new and old are properly incentivized to revisit old content via Daily rewards.  It's just not worth the headache for any player to visit a dungeon, even if the rewards were boosted because it's just not worth the time.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

 From

1 hour ago, Cryect.1780 said:

ITT: People with high AP don't think dungeons should be nerfed, and instead tell new players to "get good". Also these are the same players who wonder why dungeons are dead

to

11 minutes ago, Cryect.1780 said:

The problem is that, 8 years ago, dungeons and raids were "hard" and required "getting good". Now they aren't. 

in less than 2 hours.