Outnumbered buff = I leave the map

[Zyreva.1078]

On 12/14/2021 at 11:10 PM, ollbirtan.2915 said:

You totally misread me - I don't play for the pips and rewards - I've got all the legi sets/trinkets etc. Old system made sure that I could always play in outnumbered maps as a roamer. If a friendly zerg appeared - i would immediately change maps. Now - the new system doesn't give incentive to THOSE people you are talking about --- those trebbing semi-afk , or repairing structures. What this means? They are all part of the mindless zerg now --- and also means that all outnumbered maps are 10v1 most of the time. No more 1v1 1v3  --- Zerg mentality is way stronger now after the update. 

The outnumbered buff is not a good indicator of what gameplay is to be expected, so basing your map choice on it is completely pointless. Just play on whatever map you have the most fun and ignore that kitten buff, srsly.

Also i seriously doubt afk trebbers and repaireres would join zergs now (and even if they did, they won't make much of a difference). Players aren't zerging more or less, they aren't roaming more or less. 1vs1, 2vs1, 10vs1, Zergvs1 - it all happens just as much or little as before and it can happen on any map. All at once on the same map even. Regardless of population status. The only thing that seems to have changed, is your perception of those events.

Edited December 16, 2021 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Zyreva.1078]

4 hours ago, rrusse.7058 said:

It doesn't really matter why someone is playing WvW, only that we want more people in it, participating and playing. Whether you're a new player, someone in it for a particular item or a seasoned veteran we should be focused on getting more bodies in there and fighting. It's a cornerstone game mode so let's all act like it!

But what if those bodies aren't there for the participating and fighting and avoid those things as much as possible? More isn't always better in a game mode that offers as much freedom (and therefore potential exploitation) as WvW.

[rrusse.7058]

2 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

But what if those bodies aren't there for the participating and fighting and avoid those things as much as possible? More isn't always better in a game mode that offers as much freedom (and therefore potential exploitation) as WvW.

Good point.

We would want to incentivize particular play and make that more rewarding. I'm not going to pretend that I know the answer to that though. I know Grouch has mentioned he would like to make playing say a healer more rewarding.

Could it be possible to make certain activities more rewarding than others? Perhaps running Yaks get's players 'x' amount of pips or reward track at a rate of 'x' and combat and pushing objectives gets players 'y' pips and 'y' reward track rate?

Edited December 16, 2021 by rrusse.7058

[Zikory.6871]

Anet is removing ways to afk pip and people still think they are entitled to it. What a joke, imagine spending more time and energy to farm the least efficient way. 

Lmao have fun doing nothing in WvW for a few years to get your "rewards". Could just knock out Raid legendries in a few months but nope, going to wait 22 weeks per set of trying to do the least possible and still have to farm the rest for the gear.

[TheGrimm.5624]

On 12/16/2021 at 12:32 PM, Zikory.6871 said:

Anet is removing ways to afk pip and people still think they are entitled to it. What a joke, imagine spending more time and energy to farm the least efficient way. 

Lmao have fun doing nothing in WvW for a few years to get your "rewards". Could just knock out Raid legendries in a few months but nope, going to wait 22 weeks per set of trying to do the least possible and still have to farm the rest for the gear.

 

Again, this is the extreme angle, I think a number of people talking outnumbered aren't out there AFKing and that's some of the counter points. If people in spawn are the issue, change the exit timers for people in spawn. So last night on reset, one map on one side had what appeared to be about 2 havocs of about 6 - 8 and about 5 roamers versus two full zergs. So the option was provide no resistance and completely give up the map or try and see what we could do until we could get more on map. Aka hold your ground. Even without the outnumbered pips we did so. So were we pip hunting without pips? No we don't like to lose so we fight. The extra pips before was a bit more of a hey thanks for fighting even if you go full head on you probably aren't going to make it. Sometimes you need people to start the fight to get more people to fight. Remember even ANet said their first pass isn't going to be trying to balance time-zones. So the odds are some time-zones will be outnumbered is still likely unless they further restrict population. Again not coming at this from lego armor, have it all already. 

[Strider Pj.2193]

Just now, TheGrimm.5624 said:

 

Again, this is the extreme angle, I think a number of people talking outnumbered aren't out there AFKing and that's some of the counter points. If people in spawn are the issue, change the exit timers for people in spawn. So last night on reset, one map on one side had what appeared to be about 2 havocs of about 6 - 8 and about 5 roamers versus two full zergs. So the option was provide no resistance and completely give up the map or try and see what we could do until we could get more on map. Aka hold your ground. Even without the outnumbered pips we did so. So were we pip hunting without pips? No we don't like to lose so we fight. The extra pips before was a bit more of a hey thanks for fighting even if you go full head on you probably aren't going to make it. Sometimes you need people to start the fight to get more people to fight. Remember even ANet said their first pass isn't going to be trying to balance time-zones. So the odds are some time-zones will be outnumbered is still likely unless they further restrict population. Again not coming at this from lego armor, have it all already. 

I still tend to doubt that more than 50% of their game play was on outnumbered maps, getting the outnumbered pips.  Sure there will be a couple.  
 

The change led to every player effectively getting a +2 bump to their base pip acquisition.  The change benefited more people by far than it hurt.

 

What I think some have not realized, the developers may have looked at it as a package deal.  

[Zikory.6871]

23 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

 

Again, this is the extreme angle, I think a number of people talking outnumbered aren't out there AFKing and that's some of the counter points. If people in spawn are the issue, change the exit timers for people in spawn. So last night on reset, one map on one side had what appeared to be about 2 havocs of about 6 - 8 and about 5 roamers versus two full zergs. So the option was provide no resistance and completely give up the map or try and see what we could do until we could get more on map. Aka hold your ground. Even without the outnumbered pips we did so. So were we pip hunting without pips? No we don't like to lose so we fight. The extra pips before was a bit more of a hey thanks for fighting even if you go full head on you probably aren't going to make it. Sometimes you need people to start the fight to get more people to fight. Remember even ANet said their first pass isn't going to be trying to balance time-zones. So the odds are some time-zones will be outnumbered is still likely unless they further restrict population. Again not coming at this from lego armor, have it all already. 

The issue is rarely with the players using the system as intended. 

Unless they are ok with adding Outnumbered pips back while keeping the base pips change in place, more players are going to lose pips if they revert it. Like most things, players like yourself were given something to improve your time and others found a way to abuse it in a way Anet didn't want. 

I'd just suggest focusing on ranks now. With the change, higher ranks can finish in 8-12 hours and I gained ~1600 ranks in 2021. 

[TheGrimm.5624]

On 12/18/2021 at 12:47 PM, Strider Pj.2193 said:

I still tend to doubt that more than 50% of their game play was on outnumbered maps, getting the outnumbered pips.  Sure there will be a couple.  
 

The change led to every player effectively getting a +2 bump to their base pip acquisition.  The change benefited more people by far than it hurt.

 

What I think some have not realized, the developers may have looked at it as a package deal.  

 

Not against the changes to help everyone, but this didn't need to be mutually exclusive. Even I had a hard time not having the group jump maps while we waited for more even fights. In the end we didn't jump maps but games and just went over to New World. That is exactly not want changes should equate to.

Edited December 20, 2021 by TheGrimm.5624
spelling

[Strider Pj.2193]

4 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

 

Not against the changes to help everyone, but this didn't need to be mutually exclusive. Even I had a hard time not having the group jump maps while we waited for more even fights. In the end we didn't jump maps but games and just went over to New World. That is exactly not want changes should equate to.

Maybe it didn’t need to be mutually exclusive.  Just like Anet doesn’t need to balance..  

 

Given they haven’t really bumped up the pip gain, nor increased the tickets, and have had ample opportunity to do so since the introduction of the skirmish reward system, maybe, just maybe, they WANT it to take as long as it does.  
 

Some people just don’t want to admit that.  (Not meaning you specifically)

 

But it makes little sense why you and your group didn’t hop to find more even fights.  

[TheGrimm.5624]

18 hours ago, Strider Pj.2193 said:

Maybe it didn’t need to be mutually exclusive.  Just like Anet doesn’t need to balance..  

 

Given they haven’t really bumped up the pip gain, nor increased the tickets, and have had ample opportunity to do so since the introduction of the skirmish reward system, maybe, just maybe, they WANT it to take as long as it does.  
 

Some people just don’t want to admit that.  (Not meaning you specifically)

 

But it makes little sense why you and your group didn’t hop to find more even fights.  

 

I am 13K hours into the game, 90% or so probably being WvW as a roamer and havoc, full lego and wasn't asking for armory. They trashed my goal to outfit 32 toons in full lego. And I question their logic, do I need to say more?  All things should be front loaded to help new players. I entered WvW in white gear since Warhammer allowed you to enter RvR at level one and that's what we did to fight. There should be diminishing returns but goals for toons all the way to 10K rank. But they shouldn't decrease reasons for people to try and fight while outnumbered.  We need to stop being scared of the pip hunter. We need to encourage people to leave the zerg and fight while against the odds to better balance the maps. That's the point a number of us are trying to make. Aid everyone but don't just aid zerg play. Encourage people to fight more with less to encourage balanced sides. Stop worrying about the 1% that will try and abuse the system since we ignore more than that in other game modes. Stop penalizing the players that don't want to lose their stuff and stop encouraging more ktrains. This doesn't lead to more fights but less. That's the point a number of us are trying to make. Our risk/reward balance is way off and getting worse.

Edited December 21, 2021 by TheGrimm.5624
stop encouraging

[Strider Pj.2193]

9 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

 

I am 13K hours into the game, 90% or so probably being WvW as a roamer and havoc, full lego and wasn't asking for armory. They trashed my goal to outfit 32 toons in full lego. And I question their logic, do I need to say more?  All things should be front loaded to help new players. I entered WvW in white gear since Warhammer allowed you to enter RvR at level one and that's what we did to fight. There should be diminishing returns but goals for toons all the way to 10K rank. But they shouldn't decrease reasons for people to try and fight while outnumbered.  We need to stop being scared of the pip hunter. We need to encourage people to leave the zerg and fight while against the odds to better balance the maps. That's the point a number of us are trying to make. Aid everyone but don't just aid zerg play. Encourage people to fight more with less to encourage balanced sides. Stop worrying about the 1% that will try and abuse the system since we ignore more than that in other game modes. Stop penalizing the players that don't want to lose their stuff and stop encouraging more ktrains. This doesn't lead to more fights but less. That's the point a number of us are trying to make. Our risk/reward balance is way off and getting worse.

Gonna hold this to comment later.  Suffice it to say I disagree with you less than you may think.  

[Zikory.6871]

11 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

There should be diminishing returns but goals for toons all the way to 10K rank. But they shouldn't decrease reasons for people to try and fight while outnumbered.  We need to stop being scared of the pip hunter. We need to encourage people to leave the zerg and fight while against the odds to better balance the maps. That's the point a number of us are trying to make. Aid everyone but don't just aid zerg play. Encourage people to fight more with less to encourage balanced sides. Stop worrying about the 1% that will try and abuse the system since we ignore more than that in other game modes. Stop penalizing the players that don't want to lose their stuff and stop encouraging more ktrains. This doesn't lead to more fights but less. That's the point a number of us are trying to make. Our risk/reward balance is way off and getting worse.

I don't get it, we've had outnumbered pips for 4? years? How'd the encouragement go? Have the maps been balanced? Do you honestly think rewards is the main reason players stack in big groups? Bribing players to be better then they are isn't how it works. It's a band-aid to keep people interested in a stagnate game mode. 

Maybe if defending outnumbered was fun or more engaging?

[Xenesis.6389]

Last night boon squad of 50 shows up at a t3 garrison loaded with siege, ripped through two gates with rams shield gens and golems in less than 5 mins before any siege could make a dent to them. Hours to upgrade, minutes to break.

 

Also squad of 50 set up to take t3 ebg keep with 3 shield gens and a bunch of catas, couldn't counter siege, couldn't stand on walls or get pull into bombed, couldn't even sneak in stealth to disable because you know bubbles out the yahoo even from players. What happened then? oh yeah other server showed up with their 50 blob to fight for bags. At that point you sit back and watch godzilla fight mecha godzilla in your backyard. After they leave go defend another keep, 5 mins later ebg keep lost, L... O... L...

 

Oh yeah outnumbered fun and engaging, what could possibly make that happen in those scenarios against those odds.... not being outnumbered...

[Zikory.6871]

But if they buff rewards for the outnumbered groups, your time being blasted by 2 map queues wouldn't be wasted right? Population or "balance" clearly isn't a issue here.

[GoldenPants.1870]

Make an outnumbering debuff, it’s exactly like the Outnumbered buff, but the reverse.

 

Your forces greatly outnumber the enemies. Try to find a more fair fight !
-50% Participation
-20% Magic Find
-25% World Experience
Take armor damage on death
Being killed by the enemy team will  grant double War Score.

 

 

ez game.

 

(Obviously sarcasm but… maybe ?)

[SweetPotato.7456]

Outnumbered Pips

 

If my memory serves me right. It was made for players so that they are equally rewarded when grossly outnumbered.
When players can't do much, especially those on low population servers and players who logs in during downtime.

When it  is removed, was it well thought of?
NO, it was not. 
This one you should not have removed, zergs and blobs don't care for outnumbered pips, they have pips,
they have plenty of pips, BUT, when they leave,
what of the players that haven't  blob and zerg to gain pips from?  
Are they to be farm by the other servers and have minimum pips at the same time? 

I'd say this is just another motivation for players to mindlessly Ktrain.

[Svarty.8019]

On 12/14/2021 at 7:14 PM, Shiyo.3578 said:

The incentive to stay in outnumbered situations and get zerged over and over again was completely removed. Why was this changed in the first place? It worked exactly as intended from my own experiences.

Please add pips back to outnumbered.

The entire WvW system has been engineered in such a way that it inevitably results in SNOWBALLING.

 

Arenanet are SO averse to handicapping that they spent four years developing the World Restructuring (Alliances) system instead.

 

I think the system would benefit hugely from handicapping even when the dust settles on World Restructuring, but I am pessimistic that handicapping will ever happen.

Edited December 22, 2021 by Svarty.8019
Edited for Clarification

[Shroud.2307]

 

 

21 hours ago, Zikory.6871 said:

But if they buff rewards for the outnumbered groups, your time being blasted by 2 map queues wouldn't be wasted right? Population or "balance" clearly isn't a issue here.

Literally this, lol.

This is kind of besides the point of the OP, but I love being Outnumbered. Panic and chaos is fun to me, and I love communicating and co-ordinating with people to divert or pester the omni-blob. The only time it sucks is when everyone gives up because so many people won't bother if a) no rewards or b) no chance of winning.

I don't care if the likely outcome is failure, I just like seeing how much of a difference it can make when a handful of people do the right things. 5 - 8 aren't going to stop an omni-blob, but there's plenty you can do to prevent them from steamrolling everything with 0 effort, and that's a win IMO.

If you succeed and protect everything, great. If you don't, you have things to recapture - free loot. Also great. I dunno, people are just so negative, lol.

[TheGrimm.5624]

1 hour ago, Shroud.2307 said:

This is kind of besides the point of the OP, but I love being Outnumbered. Panic and chaos is fun to me, and I love communicating and co-ordinating with people to divert or pester the omni-blob. The only time it sucks is when everyone gives up because so many people won't bother if a) no rewards or b) no chance of winning.

I don't care if the likely outcome is failure, I just like seeing how much of a difference it can make when a handful of people do the right things. 5 - 8 aren't going to stop an omni-blob, but there's plenty you can do to prevent them from steamrolling everything with 0 effort, and that's a win IMO.

If you succeed and protect everything, great. If you don't, you have things to recapture - free loot. Also great. I dunno, people are just so negative, lol.

 

I agree with you here personally for much of the same reasons. I love it when our havoc can draw a zerg off target and enjoy when we can clear a ring and wait for our zerg to come get participation for something we were ready to cap. But that's not for everyone and it doesn't mean we don't get chewed up at times. But I also get it that its the not same for others. Again, different people will see progression differently and that's ok. But when I see comments like, 'outnumbered, time to switch map', that kind of sucks. Not looking to penalize a side that can draw more, more power to them, but as Sweet said the original intent was give the outnumbered side something since all their efforts might be in vain but they might give it a shot anyway. Before GW2 had the system Warhammer had its AAO (Against All Odds) to address the same issue and it mostly worked, which is where some of us posted was needed here years back before Outnumbered was added. In GW2, to me it seemed to also help, hence the counter-posts, wouldn't want ANet to just leave thinking hey that worked out great. Good change to help everyone agree there, not so much for us stubborn peeps that should know when to quit and just be good with losing things. Either way the fight will go on. Good hunting to you all! Cya out there.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

My issue is the Outnumbered buff is worthless now. Oh, your enemy outnumbers you 3:1? Enjoy your free WXP bonus while the enemy server rolls you into a burrito over and over like its Taco Bell.

 

Even Borderlands Bloodlust is more useful, and that's saying alot.

Edited December 22, 2021 by Hannelore.8153

[Gorem.8104]

18 hours ago, SweetPotato.7456 said:

Outnumbered Pips

 

If my memory serves me right. It was made for players so that they are equally rewarded when grossly outnumbered.
When players can't do much, especially those on low population servers and players who logs in during downtime.

When it  is removed, was it well thought of?
NO, it was not. 
This one you should not have removed, zergs and blobs don't care for outnumbered pips, they have pips,
they have plenty of pips, BUT, when they leave,
what of the players that haven't  blob and zerg to gain pips from?  
Are they to be farm by the other servers and have minimum pips at the same time? 

I'd say this is just another motivation for players to mindlessly Ktrain.

Exactly really, that entire last wvw patch that we got really shouted out loud "hey, you play wvw by zerging and ppt'ing, you get more pips! It is now the only really way to get pips, get your rank up in the zerg for more pips while you get more pips for having higher points! better get zerging!" Whereas before that patch, you could defend a tower or keep with a few buddies outside of EBG and actually be rewarded for it, for playing on an outnumbered map where you fight against odds in the enemies favour. 

But nope! Anet doesn't want you playing solo anymore, or scouting or roaming, better get to K-training! I just don't understand why Anet suddenly decided so many of us who actually play wvw actively, were playing wvw wrong.