About Scourge in FotM

[Arkaile.5604]

Real Gamers Run 5-Man Scourge Parties

 

Seriously though, what's even going on here? I come back after taking a break from gw2 and the t4 lfg tab is infested with people looking for triple scourge for dps slots. I remember seeing holos, thieves, the occasional mesmer, even eles, but now even condi fb is becoming uncommon despite it also overperforming. This tends to be at its worst right around reset (if by some miracle an anet employee reads this, go check the lfg around reset yourself), so I started doing my dailies about 12 hours afterward, but lately it's been getting bad even then. A single e-spec, not even class, **E-SPEC**, is occupying an average of 60% of the slots for these parties. I understand that scourges received a buff, but I've never seen listings in lfg in such a sorry state in any game I've played.

 

There are two groups to blame here and anet is the first while also shouldering much of the blame. I understand that addressing anet and hoping something changes is lunacy, but this needs to be said over and over, at least as a reminder to the community to keep their expectations low. This particular disaster has been an issue for months and it doesn't take a Ph. D. in game design to see that something is wrong while determining that scourge needs to be addressed. Go check out what builds the community is running, join some t4 fractal parties yourselves and especially CM groups, see what's overperforming, shave it down and do some internal testing (lol), then release incremental nerfs scourge and any other overperformers to bring builds back into the meta while not accidentally nerfing anything to the point that no one sees any reason to use it. I understand that EoD has been getting a lot of work, but that's no reason to neglect ongoing issues.

The second group is the playerbase itself. Scourge was buffed because people whined incessantly about it being weak until it caught anet's attention. Just as a reminder, scourge was/is a mess, causing problems from the day it was released. It was nerfed time and time again, sometimes getting minor reworks, because its design is to take the aoe spam common in gw2 and run that train off a cliff so hard that it became the biggest issue in wvw and spvp at that time. People need to take their blinders off, look at something besides golem benchmarks and their dps meters, and understand that utility has value in a party; just because your build is not a hard support and cannot hit 35k+ dps, doesn't mean it's useless in group content. Moreover, scourges are having a negative effect on player quality because they're easy to play and are thus used as a crutch. The smoothest daily runs I've had are those without scourges, or with only one, because those parties have players who know how to proficiently engage with mechanics as opposed to facerolling them with triple epi and barriers. Just as an example, here's a fun thing I was told today in 100CM before the party disbanded: "If we only have two scg, epi has to be timed." Timing something? In an action MMO? Golly-gee-williker, that's WILD! Maybe these people should start by rebinding their dodge keys. From my experience in two-scourge parties, failing the sorrows in 100CM is always the result of one of them being bad.

That said, nothing is going to change except for another e-spec, possibly even one from EoD, being crowned as whatever the hell scourge is right now. Big sad, but that's just what gw2 is at this point.

 

On a final note, I'd like to mention  @anbujackson.9564 who talked about this in a post back in late August.

 

[Infusion.7149]

If you read the threads lately you would have seen I already stated that scourge is doing 90% of its damage as conditions which is amplified by 100% in an exposed breakbar (most condition builds do 80-90% in conditions though). Defiance bars were changed in May 2021 to be +30% power damage and +100% condition damage and power burst from DH/soulbeast/holo were nerfed simultaneously. In the same patch torment was made far stronger but scourges did not have Demonic Lore changed to be a lower damage bonus and they gained around 9K DPS overnight (around +32%) even when exposed isn't a factor. Scourge should really be rebalanced to be around 33K DPS as a stopgap since single shortbow condi ranger which has the same ease , DPS uptime due to range, and no barriers does that amount. The Desert Empowerment trait could also have lowered base barrier and higher healing scaling as well to reward hybrid builds. In fractals, barriers are a workaround for agony reducing healing by 70%.

However, if you want to talk about overperforming you cannot omit firebrand and condi renegade. Both of those could take a 10% hit and easily still be strong builds. Firebrand's mantra of solace pushes out other supports from instanced content in casual groups since it is a party aegis on 12s cooldown at most, that is on top of reflect from Tome of Courage if you need it and 5 condi clear +33% healing bonus from tome of resolve. Since StM chrono (which ramps as slow as condi but is power DPS and falls off heavily versus No Pain No Gain / Vengeance) and quickness scrapper don't provide fury and minimal might as well as being power builds, firebrand currently has a stranglehold on quickness in fractals. Before scourge was popularized it was firebrand stacking with condi RR : aegis is a workaround for agony's healing reduction as well.

EOD is unlikely to change this unless harbinger gets some improvements (it won't heal more or less , only provide quickness) or catalyst has a strong quickness condi build (seeing how the jade sphere isn't mobile and auras don't heal as on tempest). In both cases you would likely be using alacrity renegade, alacrity mechanist (barrier), or alacrity specter (barrier). Quickness is a tier one boon and condition quickness is a fractal priority with the current iteration of exposed. Maybe condition quickness scrapper could catch on a bit but it's not as easy (triple kits to do same thing as firebrand) and doesn't have fury or much might for the party. The same thing goes for heal scrapper which is far weaker for 98CM in particular due to having zero DPS in med kit ; blast gyro is troll in fractals most of the time since it launches things 600 range away. Once again , agony is -70% healing so while heal scrapper is workable in raids due to boon coverage of might/fury from others and utter overkill in most current strike missions (good for Boneskinner and Forging Steel but you can quickness DPS scrapper in Forging Steel or superspeed holo), it isn't a strong option in fractals currently.

I find it odd that you mention utility, since there are higher DPS options than scourge. Scourge is specifically taken for its utility, whether it is epidemic (to skip anomaly/sorrow which before was bypassed by Sanctuary on Firebrand), boon rip, condi cleanse as part of rotation (as opposed to slotting a utility skill), barriers, the odd chance you need a signet res, or the minor amount of might generation. Realistically though, are you going to be able to reliably exceed current scourge performance when you need to move off boss or do any mechanic in a non-speedclear group?

Edited December 31, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Genesis.5169]

You guys are missing the part where people on the forums who made complaints exactly like this asked to nerf other classes. Which lead us to here. There was a time where mesmers where the only ones with alacrity but since they didnt give might you needed some one for that and crit.

That was nerfed.
There was a time were a thief could perma stealth people through raids and parts of fotm.
That was also nerfed.

You all are reaping everything you sowed the things you asked for we had, we had defined unique classes, we had niche roles we had class diversity the forums came for that and destroyed it and the argument you making against scourge is the arguement they made against all the other classes.

You solution isn't a solution and just adding on to the problem that people like you who complain about other classes in PvE come here and demand nerfs instead of buffs or refuse to open up and make your own parties and change the meta your self.

Edited December 31, 2021 by Genesis.5169

[Nephalem.8921]

1 minute ago, Genesis.5169 said:

You guys are missing the part where people on the forums who made complaints exactly like this asked to nerf other classes. Which lead us to here. There was a time where mesmers where the only ones with alacrity but since they didnt give might you needed some one for that and crit.

That was nerfed.
There was a time were a thief could perma stealth people through raids and parts of fotm.
That was also nerfed.

You all are reaping everything you sowed the things you asked for we had, we had defined unique classes, we had niche roles we had class diversity the forums came for that and destroyed it and the argument you making against scourge is the arguement they made against all the other classes.

You solution isn't a solution and just adding on to the problem that people like you who complain about other classes in PvE come here and demand nerfs instead of buffs or refuse to open up and make your own parties and change the meta your self.

Thief stealth was never nerfed. It was always useless in raids though unless you mean the sloth bug abuse. Fractals got nerfed so hard that stealth just isnt needed anymore. That was different when normal mobs were able to hit you for 30k+ and you needed to blind them or stealth to skip them.

You can still permastealth just as easily. Even easier actually but even pugs exploit the underground cage now so you dont even need stealth there.

[Infusion.7149]

22 minutes ago, Genesis.5169 said:

You guys are missing the part where people on the forums who made complaints exactly like this asked to nerf other classes. Which lead us to here. There was a time where mesmers where the only ones with alacrity but since they didnt give might you needed some one for that and crit.

That was nerfed.
There was a time were a thief could perma stealth people through raids and parts of fotm.
That was also nerfed.

You all are reaping everything you sowed the things you asked for we had, we had defined unique classes, we had niche roles we had class diversity the forums came for that and destroyed it and the argument you making against scourge is the arguement they made against all the other classes.

You solution isn't a solution and just adding on to the problem that people like you who complain about other classes in PvE come here and demand nerfs instead of buffs or refuse to open up and make your own parties and change the meta your self.

Chronos did use to give some might, even in WVW it gave might which is why boonshare chrono was popular.
See patchnote from 2018:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/2018-12-11#Mesmer

• Bountiful Disillusionment: This trait now only applies boons to the mesmer.
• Signet of Inspiration: The active effect of this signet no longer shares the mesmer's boons with allies. Instead, it now extends the duration of all allies' current boons by 5 seconds.

That is not to say it was easy to play and GW2 is always heading towards ease of access and play-ability due to the nature of the business model. What it was lacking was healing which is why druid was run. Up until 2019 we didn't have diviner gear and celestial did not have any boon duration so let's not pretend that you could provide alacrity with a single renegade before that. When diviner alac ren was new it was ~23K power DPS , pQB ~24K , Viper cQB or grieving FB ~28K with allies, seraph FB ~24K and inspi chrono ~16K with iA instead of Danger Time (since slow is unrealistic) at the time before the later further nerfs.

What we have now is greatly more DPS when you consider the exposed changes and the slow ramp of power chronos.

[Genesis.5169]

46 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Chronos did use to give some might, even in WVW it gave might which is why boonshare chrono was popular.
See patchnote from 2018:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/2018-12-11#Mesmer

• Bountiful Disillusionment: This trait now only applies boons to the mesmer.
• Signet of Inspiration: The active effect of this signet no longer shares the mesmer's boons with allies. Instead, it now extends the duration of all allies' current boons by 5 seconds.

That is not to say it was easy to play and GW2 is always heading towards ease of access and play-ability due to the nature of the business model. What it was lacking was healing which is why druid was run. Up until 2019 we didn't have diviner gear and celestial did not have any boon duration so let's not pretend that you could provide alacrity with a single renegade before that. When diviner alac ren was new it was ~23K power DPS , pQB ~24K , Viper cQB or grieving FB ~28K with allies, seraph FB ~24K and inspi chrono ~16K with iA instead of Danger Time (since slow is unrealistic) at the time before the later further nerfs.

What we have now is greatly more DPS when you consider the exposed changes and the slow ramp of power chronos.

Wasn't enough for 25 stacks i remember that clearly i ran chrono back then. Tho you said some might, my runs in fotm had 25mights and 100% fury uptime with some alacrity and some quickness from me as a chrono and i would extend/share (because i would apply buffs applied to me back to my allies) those buffs i did not provide the 25 stacks. But as you said it was nerfed and taken away.

Edited December 31, 2021 by Genesis.5169

[Infusion.7149]

1 minute ago, Genesis.5169 said:

Wasn't enough for 25 stacks i remember that clearly i ran chrono back then. Tho you said some might, my runs in fotm had 25mights and 100% uptime with some alacrity and some quickness from me as a chrono. But as you said it was nerfed and taken away.

If I remember correctly commander's with Leadership runes was even less than the ~16K with diviner's at the time, maybe akin to 11K DPS. Yes, druid was helping with might but in the current meta if you aren't using healbrand so is renegade somewhat (13 might stacks per dT) as well as scourges. Not to mention prestacking empower and instant cast mantras is far different than chrono+druid. What we have now is extreme DPS inflation for supports further exacerbated by the exposed change.

Ultimately far fewer people play mesmers than guardians so even if they nerf firebrand it shouldn't be gutted and made borderline unplayable but simply an option among a number of quickness supports. I would say people looking for firebrands are probably waiting for shorter periods of time compared to when people waited for chronos as when I joined groups on chrono they always seemed to have been waiting a while. Nowadays it's more or less HB , alac/DPS and go. In addition, because firebrand is undeniably simpler to grasp and 40% boon duration is present on raid variants whereas only 25% or so boon duration is necessary it also has far more leeway and safety.

Therefore my conclusion is for the overall health of the game the quickness (and alacrity) providers should have greater parity where bringing one option is not significantly worse than the others. The best ways to start in that direction would be to lower firebrand sustained damage (condi variants do ~40K with allies and ~35K solo currently), up mantra of solace recharge (see Shelter/Receive the Light) when you don't have weighty terms and self-heal especially in competitive modes , look at renegade torment application so that it is on par with before the changes, and make exposed not so extremely favoring condition damage.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

Sounds to me like you just hate scourge a lot for some reason.  

[Bakeneko.5826]

16 hours ago, Arkaile.5604 said:

Seriously though, what's even going on here? I come back after taking a break from gw2 and the t4 lfg tab is infested with people looking for triple scourge for dps slots. I remember seeing holos, thieves, the occasional mesmer, even eles, but now even condi fb is becoming uncommon despite it also overperforming.

Because it's easier. Scourge, traited for barrier and not burn on punishment skill is very sturdy at cost of very little DPS and it gives survivability to the rest of party. There are still parties running cfb/thieves as cdps, when they want daylies done quicker. Basically, if you want very consistent run - 3 scourges, if you want faster - other cdps classes.

 

16 hours ago, Arkaile.5604 said:

I understand that scourges received a buff, but I've never seen listings in lfg in such a sorry state in any game I've played.

Actually they were nerfed 🙂

16 hours ago, Arkaile.5604 said:

Go check out what builds the community is running, join some t4 fractal parties yourselves and especially CM groups, see what's overperforming, shave it down and do some internal testing (lol), then release incremental nerfs scourge and any other overperformers to bring builds back into the meta while not accidentally nerfing anything to the point that no one sees any reason to use it.

The point is, scourge isn't overperforming, it isn't even meta for speed clearing. It's not even that great of DPS compared to CFB, condi rene or thief, but it's consistent. If anything, CFB needs nerfing.

 

16 hours ago, Arkaile.5604 said:

Scourge was buffed because people whined incessantly about it being weak until it caught anet's attention.

Last patch it was nerfed 🙂 In survivability and in dps.

16 hours ago, Arkaile.5604 said:

just because your build is not a hard support and cannot hit 35k+ dps, doesn't mean it's useless in group content.

This is current scourge though. You are literally describing a class you try to kitten on. It has one of the lowest condi DMGs for end-game builds, condi build isn't doing much of a supporting, but it is played because of versatility and ease of access.

16 hours ago, Arkaile.5604 said:

The smoothest daily runs I've had are those without scourges, or with only one, because those parties have players who know how to proficiently engage with mechanics as opposed to facerolling them with triple epi and barriers. Just as an example, here's a fun thing I was told today in 100CM before the party disbanded: "If we only have two scg, epi has to be timed." Timing something? In an action MMO? Golly-gee-williker, that's WILD! Maybe these people should start by rebinding their dodge keys. From my experience in two-scourge parties, failing the sorrows in 100CM is always the result of one of them being bad.

Sounds like made up problem, also a lie (or you are playing on NA). Triple epi is nice, but not mandatory, a lot of scourge players fail to understand (you as well, apparently), that epi doesn't care about personal dmg if condies are stacked to 25, as epi transfers only 25 stacks, but needs varied condies, not just poison and torment - that is, if you have CFB and 2 scourges, but non condi rene and hfb, someone needs to whack sorrows a few times.

16 hours ago, Arkaile.5604 said:

That said, nothing is going to change except for another e-spec, possibly even one from EoD, being crowned as whatever the hell scourge is right now. Big sad, but that's just what gw2 is at this point.

Nothing is going to change, because your stated problems is with you and not the game, or rather you not understanding how game systems work. Scourge is very strong class in fractals, but it's neither broken, nor meta for high end groups. It's there for pug meta, for people who want chill run with great results, as opposed to running CFB,CFB,condi rene, condi deadeye and condi SLB.

 

 

[Vidit.7108]

Nah the Scourge is fine, it doesn't need more nerfs. If anything needs to be nerfed it's the exposed buff to condi damage.

What Scourge has going for it in CMs is consistency through utility which is what PUGs want the most. Same reason HB dominates in T4 pugs.

Let me tell you though half the time when I'm in a party with three condi Scourges as dps, one of them is really good and knows what they are doing, one is just dps and is kind of good/okay, and a third one will be solo auto attacking in a corner giving only themselves barrier. Player skill does still matter, any dps will clear T4s/CMs with ease if everyone knows what they are doing regardless of build. I still sometimes will get all power builds in t4s and it goes just fast/easy as all condis when it's the right people.

Scourges are just best at making the pug equation simplest right now. 

[ollbirtan.2915]

On 1/1/2022 at 3:17 AM, Genesis.5169 said:

You guys are missing the part where people on the forums who made complaints exactly like this asked to nerf other classes. Which lead us to here. There was a time where mesmers where the only ones with alacrity but since they didnt give might you needed some one for that and crit.

That was nerfed.
There was a time were a thief could perma stealth people through raids and parts of fotm.
That was also nerfed.

You all are reaping everything you sowed the things you asked for we had, we had defined unique classes, we had niche roles we had class diversity the forums came for that and destroyed it and the argument you making against scourge is the arguement they made against all the other classes.

You solution isn't a solution and just adding on to the problem that people like you who complain about other classes in PvE come here and demand nerfs instead of buffs or refuse to open up and make your own parties and change the meta your self.

I couldn't have said better. This is true across all game modes right now - enjoy ! 

[AliamRationem.5172]

On 12/31/2021 at 1:17 PM, Genesis.5169 said:

You guys are missing the part where people on the forums who made complaints exactly like this asked to nerf other classes. Which lead us to here. There was a time where mesmers where the only ones with alacrity but since they didnt give might you needed some one for that and crit.

That was nerfed.
There was a time were a thief could perma stealth people through raids and parts of fotm.
That was also nerfed.

You all are reaping everything you sowed the things you asked for we had, we had defined unique classes, we had niche roles we had class diversity the forums came for that and destroyed it and the argument you making against scourge is the arguement they made against all the other classes.

You solution isn't a solution and just adding on to the problem that people like you who complain about other classes in PvE come here and demand nerfs instead of buffs or refuse to open up and make your own parties and change the meta your self.

It's going to be okay.  Your bonkers OP classes will still be sought after.  All anyone is asking for here is that they be brought in line because they are grossly overperforming and everyone who plays this game knows it.  I'm sure that'll result in a new flavor of the month.  Such is balance.  But firebrand, renegade, and scourge need the nerf bat and they need it now.

[Bakeneko.5826]

18 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

All anyone is asking for here is that they be brought in line because they are grossly overperforming and everyone who plays this game knows it. 

Except scourge isn't overperforming...

[anbujackson.9564]

8 hours ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

Except scourge isn't overperforming...

Yes of course how could we ever think this.

It still does less like 2-3k less damage than selfish dps classes which bring nothing of value with little diversity. But sure go ahead and tell us how firebrand (and renegade) are much better and why scourge should be nerfed then if it isnt as good as them. Because excusing performance with the performance of another op spec is really smart. Just buff everything to those absurd levels. 

There are necro mains out there, who played scourge when it was like 29k and say that it is too strong now and yet again I see the same line from people all the time.  Sorry this is just ridicoulus at this point. Just like people defending firebrand or renegade.

 

Also about this:

On 12/31/2021 at 9:17 PM, Genesis.5169 said:

You solution isn't a solution and just adding on to the problem that people like you who complain about other classes in PvE come here and demand nerfs instead of buffs or refuse to open up and make your own parties and change the meta your self.

Demand buffs instead of nerfs? Seriously? Why even have PvE content at this point if everything is just so simplified because people just keep asking for more buffs instead of tuning stuff down? Bosses shouldnt die in less than one minute. Encounter design shouldnt be limited because classes completely break it otherwise. Dps classes shouldnt even close to be 40k. Support hybrids with boon applications should be nowhere near 30k (scourge is a hybrid by nature btw). You dont even have to speedrun content. Dont you find it laughable how easy and fast you can clear bosses? How mechanics get ignored because aegis spam, barrier spam as full dps and in general, again, way too much damage? 

 

Edited January 11, 2022 by anbujackson.9564

[Raizel.8175]

On 1/10/2022 at 5:00 PM, AliamRationem.5172 said:

It's going to be okay.  Your bonkers OP classes will still be sought after.  All anyone is asking for here is that they be brought in line because they are grossly overperforming and everyone who plays this game knows it.  I'm sure that'll result in a new flavor of the month.  Such is balance.  But firebrand, renegade, and scourge need the nerf bat and they need it now.

I'd argue about that. Rather than the classes being at fault, I'd say how fractals work is - at least partially - at fault. No fixed tank mechanics in combination with reduced healing due to Agony makes Aegis and Barrier that much more valuable. Question at hand: Should you nerf Aegis/Barrier or should you maybe consider addressing Agony and/or Aegis/Barrier output of other classes?

The same applies to DPS. The reason why Scourge, Firebrand and Renegade deal such a huge amount of damage is - at least partially - due to the insane buff to Exposed. That means though that these classes are only favourable in encounters in which you constantly and/or at least often have to break defiance bars. In other encounters, pDPS classes are still stronger - especially bosses with a lot of phasing (which basically "cleanses" conditions) and/or bosses without Exposed debuff. Was buffing Exposed a mistake? I'd say no. pDPS classes dominated fractals for the majority of their life span. It's good that you can play cDPS classes now. What you could do now is to adjust Exposed to a reasonable level - that much is fine. In return though, you maybe also should look into the issue of phasing affecting condition damage. Maybe phasing shouldn't "cleanse" conditions, but rather "freeze" them for the time being?

Anyways, the problem of Scourge, Firebrand and Renegade overperforming is exclusive to (certain) fractals. Apart from that, we probably have the highest degree of diversity we ever had in raids and fractals. I'd certainly take that diversity over the controversial balancing issue.

[Shadowmoon.7986]

Scourge is desired because of an epi strat to ignore the cc phase of 66 and 33 of dark ai. It does not do op damage or that much extra survivability. If the health of the sorrows were low enough that 1 epi would kill, there would be more class diversity. But because it requires at least 2 epis barely, and 3 as a guarantee, we have 3 scourge groups for cm 100.

[Wolfb.7025]

2 hours ago, Shadowmoon.7986 said:

Scourge is desired because of an epi strat to ignore the cc phase of 66 and 33 of dark ai. It does not do op damage or that much extra survivability. If the health of the sorrows were low enough that 1 epi would kill, there would be more class diversity. But because it requires at least 2 epis barely, and 3 as a guarantee, we have 3 scourge groups for cm 100.

You should check statistics. A lot of scourges can easily get above 40k target dps on dark Ai (based on data before nov patch) where cfb really struggles to get even above 36k.

[AliamRationem.5172]

38 minutes ago, Wolfb.7025 said:

You should check statistics. A lot of scourges can easily get above 40k target dps on dark Ai (based on data before nov patch) where cfb really struggles to get even above 36k.

It's fine for a class that brings plenty of support to also deal as much or more damage than classes that only bring damage. Balanced.

[Shadowmoon.7986]

32 minutes ago, Wolfb.7025 said:

You should check statistics. A lot of scourges can easily get above 40k target dps on dark Ai (based on data before nov patch) where cfb really struggles to get even above 36k.

That is because with epi strat you just click 1 button and the sorrows die without effecting your dps rotation. Removing shadowbean is not much of a dps loss. Compare that mak8ng room for sanctuary on cfb.

[Wolfb.7025]

4 minutes ago, Shadowmoon.7986 said:

That is because with epi strat you just click 1 button and the sorrows die without effecting your dps rotation. Removing shadowbean is not much of a dps loss. Compare that mak8ng room for sanctuary on cfb.

That's why I said target DPS; damage on sorrows counts as cleave which is not even counted on the data I mentioned.

Oh, and there is also data with 2 scourges and a CFB, the cfb doesn't even sacrify an utility skill and their own rotation and still can't get anywhere as high a Scourge can get.

Edit: Also add the benefits of having a scourge, ocassional barrier, neglecting 2 important mechanics, and a really, reallly basic rotation with low margin of error.

Of course CFB is also dumb, its just that scourge is way , waaay better on cm100 and nearly performs as well as cfb on 99 and 98 dps wise.

Edited January 11, 2022 by Wolfb.7025

[Shadowmoon.7986]

7 minutes ago, Wolfb.7025 said:

That's why I said target DPS; damage on sorrows counts as cleave which is not even counted on the data I mentioned.

 

Edit: Also add the benefits of having a scourge, ocassional barrier, neglecting 2 important mechanics, and a really, reallly basic rotation with low margin of error.

Of course CFB is also dumb, its jsut that scourge is way , waaay better on cm100 and nearly performs as well as cfb on 99 and 98 dps wise.

That is not point, 3 scourges allows for the mechanic to be ignored. Ignoring a mechanic means more dps on the boss. That is why cfb does the same damage on cm99 and 98 where break bars are not as large or mandatory. You are cherry picking a boss who break bars are the mechanic, where anet had to ban a ton of consumables because it is the mechanic, and am wondering why a strat that bypasses a mechanic does more dps.

[Wolfb.7025]

Just now, Shadowmoon.7986 said:

That is not point, 3 scourges allows for the mechanic to be ignored. Ignoring a mechanic means more dps on the boss. That is why cfb does the same damage on cm99 and 98 where break bars are not as large or mandatory. You are cherry picking a boss who break bars are the mechanic, where anet had to ban a ton of consumables because it is the mechanic, and am wondering why a strat that bypasses a mechanic does more dps.

Don't get me wrong though i'm not really arguing, but I know how Fractal CMs works so i'm just clarifying.

 

You actually only need 2 epis to ignore the sorrows mechanic., or even only 1 good scourge if group DPS is high enough for a single epi and can put shades on each sorrow.

 

Also cfb dps is high on 99 and 98 because two things: exposed on breakbars (every cm boss has same amount of breakbars than both Ai fights btw), and because cfb is one of the few condi classes that can pull burst condi dmg instead of ramp up condi damage like every other condi class.

[Shadowmoon.7986]

9 minutes ago, Wolfb.7025 said:

 

every cm boss has same amount of breakbars than both Ai fights btw

 

Ai has a break bar with 3200 str

CM98 and 99 bosses have 1800-2200

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Defiance_bar

[Noodle Ant.1605]

imo scg is a little overrated except for its ability to epi. it has an advantage on 100 because ranged dps uptime (and epi) but technically shouldnt really shine otherwise (unless it abuses epi)

[Infusion.7149]

1 minute ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

imo scg is a little overrated except for its ability to epi. it has an advantage on 100 because ranged dps uptime (and epi) but technically shouldnt really shine otherwise (unless it abuses epi)

Without scourges you would either not run power classes or use mallyx's banish enchantment on renegade for boon rip which is a DPS loss and has no easy condition clearing. Also barrier works around the 70% heal reduction of agony.

Look at instabilities:
* Afflicted = condition  clear on <4s as part of rotation makes scourge a strong pick regardless of healing power
* No Pain No Gain = free DPS
* Vengeance = free DPS
* Social Awkwardness = slightly ranged DPS is better
* Flux Bomb = ranged DPS is better if you need to move off group
* Last Laugh = ranged DPS is better if many adds are dying
* Toxic Sickness = ranged DPS is better if you need to face away
* Toxic Trail  = condition clear on <4s cooldown as part of rotation makes scourge a strong pick regardless of healing power
* We Bleed fire = conditiion clear and barrier mitigates most of this

That's not even including situations where immob is converted into resistance such as on Aetherblade or Cliffside, allowing you to use multiple consoles at once.