PvP is an awful experience with an easy fix

[Lucentfir.7430]

22 minutes ago, pablauto.4210 said:

We do dungeons, fractals and PVP to get ascendant gear.
And as you said yourself the only way to get ascending equipment is through ranked.
All other modes you can play with your friends and get ascendand and unlock legendary. And the pvp as I said earlier is the only one that doesn't.

When reading the previous comment it is obvious that I am talking about ranked. Can we focus on the subject and not change the focus of the problem? Thanks...

I just want to chime in on this specific bolded statement since I see it used so much, despite it being a flimsy argument. Last I checked Fractals/Raids/PVE were non-competative Co-op game modes, and you're comparing it to a competative game mode where you butt heads with other players. Can you imagine a similar experience where you got rated for your fractals and raids with a score, and you had to beat another team to its completion for loot, winning and losing raises or decreases your score too?

So technically he isn't wrong you can still play with your friends in unranked, though the gripe you have here is it's not in the mode that offers the most rewards you're after, being Ascended/Legendary Equipment, and not so much for the competition.

[pablauto.4210]

36 minutes ago, Lucentfir.7430 said:

I just want to chime in on this specific bolded statement since I see it used so much, despite it being a flimsy argument. Last I checked Fractals/Raids/PVE were non-competative Co-op game modes, and you're comparing it to a competative game mode where you butt heads with other players. Can you imagine a similar experience where you got rated for your fractals and raids with a score, and you had to beat another team to its completion for loot, winning and losing raises or decreases your score too?

So technically he isn't wrong you can still play with your friends in unranked, though the gripe you have here is it's not in the mode that offers the most rewards you're after, being Ascended/Legendary Equipment, and not so much for the competition.

Playing with friends and playing pvp matches like the big MMOs on the market seems to me to be a valid argument. Not just MMO, mobas, fps the list is big. In these games you can enter a group of 3, 2, 4 and play against teams of 5, 2 or 3. Giving preference against teams with the same group. I don't know why it would be a really weak argument here.
 

PVE is viewed competitively as well. Within PVE there is the META and when doing PVE players ask you to change the spec or choose another class occasionally. Those who do PVE know that players are as critical as PVP. But here you can do it with friends. That phrase that PVE are not competitive is not true. Just put on google gw2 pve you will see meta classes and builds to be used. There are streamers that make only PVE. I don't know where you got it that it's not competitive?
 

Didn't understand your second question. I personally wouldn't see a problem. Whether a person plays for equipment or rank everyone wants to win. Everyone can be good at the game. Which reason he plays the game for me doesn't matter. Everyone chooses their goal. That's why GW2 is so good, but it fails with it in PVP unfortunately.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

The 5 man community is astronomically smaller than the people in it think it is. Making matchmaking 5-man just replaces the current problems of matchmaking with exclusion and elitism. This has been both explained and proven in the past. Just look to ATs for all the proof you need.

People keep suggesting 5man as some magical solution to all our problems. It's not.

 

 

Edited January 4, 2022 by Master Ketsu.4569

[Lucentfir.7430]

52 minutes ago, pablauto.4210 said:

Playing with friends and playing pvp matches like the big MMOs on the market seems to me to be a valid argument. Not just MMO, mobas, fps the list is big. In these games you can enter a group of 3, 2, 4 and play against teams of 5, 2 or 3. Giving preference against teams with the same group. I don't know why it would be a really weak argument here.
 

PVE is viewed competitively as well. Within PVE there is the META and when doing PVE players ask you to change the spec or choose another class occasionally. Those who do PVE know that players are as critical as PVP. But here you can do it with friends. That phrase that PVE are not competitive is not true. Just put on google gw2 pve you will see meta classes and builds to be used. There are streamers that make only PVE. I don't know where you got it that it's not competitive?
 

Didn't understand your second question. I personally wouldn't see a problem. Whether a person plays for equipment or rank everyone wants to win. Everyone can be good at the game. Which reason he plays the game for me doesn't matter. Everyone chooses their goal. That's why GW2 is so good, but it fails with it in PVP unfortunately.

I say it's a flimsy argument specifically here in this game because when this specific argument point is brought up, it's normally in reference to forcing a mixed queue(premades vs solo matchmade), and in GW2's history people don't want to get matched up against equal competition and team vs team, they want a pub stomp or a slated advantage in their favor, and people tend to avoid the competition anyway they can.  

 PVE being viewed as competative is very different from being designed as competative outlet, PVP is inherently competative by design because you're competing to win against other players, unless you're trying to say they actually design PVE content to be cutting edge sped run. In that case where's my timers and fractal/raid leaderboards for clearing content like WoW does with Mythic +? 

It's not a question it's merely pointing out that the person you're replying to isn't technically wrong, that you can play with your friends in unranked, but you're bringing up this grievance with ranked specifically because you can't play with them AND get the rewards you want to get. Nothing wrong with that, tbh they need to take titles and badges out and stuff them into ATs, but return mixed queue.

[pablauto.4210]

29 minutes ago, Master Ketsu.4569 said:

The 5 man community is astronomically smaller than the people in it think it is. Making matchmaking 5-man just replaces the current problems with matchmaking with exclusion and elitism. This has been both explained and proven in the past. Just look to ATs for all the proof you need.

People keep suggesting 5man as some magical solution to all our problems. It's not.

 

 

So small players playing PVP is the solution?
It's not a magic solution. But like other games do and are successful. It shouldn't be this horrible thing you say.

 

3 minutes ago, Lucentfir.7430 said:

I say it's a flimsy argument specifically here in this game because when this specific argument point is brought up, it's normally in reference to forcing a mixed queue(premades vs solo matchmade), and in GW2's history people don't want to get matched up against equal competition and team vs team, they want a pub stomp or a slated advantage in their favor, and people tend to avoid the competition anyway they can.  

 PVE being viewed as competative is very different from being designed as competative outlet, PVP is inherently competative by design because you're competing to win against other players, unless you're trying to say they actually design PVE content to be cutting edge sped run. In that case where's my timers and fractal/raid leaderboards for clearing content like WoW does with Mythic +? 

It's not a question it's merely pointing out that the person you're replying to isn't technically wrong, that you can play with your friends in unranked, but you're bringing up this grievance with ranked specifically because you can't play with them AND get the rewards you want to get. Nothing wrong with that, tbh they need to take titles and badges out and stuff them into ATs, but return mixed queue.

The number of players in pvp is already low. And with decisions like that, fewer players will play.
I prefer to play against a team of 5 to 3 players than a team full of bots.

I take a lot of matches with the score 500 - 136 or you get annihilated or you annihilated the opponent. And that won't change any time soon.
But at least we could be able to play with friends and have fun online in an online game while getting high rank, some gear and earning stuff. We can't in PVP.
Isn't that why you guys play MMO? At least that's my motive.

[Lucentfir.7430]

51 minutes ago, pablauto.4210 said:

The number of players in pvp is already low. And with decisions like that, fewer players will play.
I prefer to play against a team of 5 to 3 players than a team full of bots.

I take a lot of matches with the score 500 - 136 or you get annihilated or you annihilated the opponent. And that won't change any time soon.
But at least we could be able to play with friends and have fun online in an online game while getting high rank, some gear and earning stuff. We can't in PVP.
Isn't that why you guys play MMO? At least that's my motive.

Why would that make fewer players play? By what others have spouted it should encourage you to form a team/ with friends to compete. You want titles and badges of prestige, earn them in a actual competition and have fun in ATs, not by pub stomping uncompetitive matches  and slanted playing fields, because that's what the value of those titles and badges are supposed to hold. It should be noted that the chest rewards for ascended shards would stay in ranked. 

You know back then I remember people used to play for fun, and the joy of the pvp game mode even when the rewards were really bad, because it was good.  Hot join servers were thriving with plenty of full servers. Now a days the only thing a majority of people playing spvp are really playing for are the rewards, and once they get what they want they leave and never look back. As for why play a MMO, play it because you enjoy it? What other reasons would you need besides that regardless if it's a solo experience or a massively multiplayer one. 

[Genesis.5169]

3 hours ago, Lucentfir.7430 said:

I just want to chime in on this specific bolded statement since I see it used so much, despite it being a flimsy argument. Last I checked Fractals/Raids/PVE were non-competative Co-op game modes, and you're comparing it to a competative game mode where you butt heads with other players. Can you imagine a similar experience where you got rated for your fractals and raids with a score, and you had to beat another team to its completion for loot, winning and losing raises or decreases your score too?

So technically he isn't wrong you can still play with your friends in unranked, though the gripe you have here is it's not in the mode that offers the most rewards you're after, being Ascended/Legendary Equipment, and not so much for the competition.

I don't know how to break it to you but not allowing premades to team up is anti competitive. Not sure how you see it as the opposite, most people argue that good players will team up and just stomp bad players which is the true nature of pvp not the hand holding that forcefully separates people to protect you and others like you. So your argument falls on its face for you to call the game mode competitive and be anti premade at the same time.

You get loot either or in pvp that point is also wrong.
Please don't try to hide behind this notion of "competitive" its pretty clear 5mans were taken so solo players can feel protected from there perceived notion that premades are autowin.

Edited January 4, 2022 by Genesis.5169

[Lucentfir.7430]

5 minutes ago, Genesis.5169 said:

I don't know how to break it to you but not allowing premades to team up is anti competitive. Not sure how you see it as the opposite, most people argue that good players will team up and just stomp bad players which is the true nature of pvp not the hand holding that forcefully separates people to protect you and others like you. So your argument falls on its face for you to call the game mode competitive and be anti premade at the same time.

You get loot either or in pvp that point is also wrong.
Please don't try to hide behind this notion of "competitive" its pretty clear 5mans were taken so solo players can feel protected from there perceived notion that premades are autowin.

1 - Please see the more recent post, because I'm not contesting the return of pre-mades in ranked anymore, only suggesting they should move the prestigious rewards like titles and badges into ATs. The reply is for the bolded statement in particular like it's a great point in advocating for a returning pre-made mixed queue, when it isn't. People need to come up with better convincing points is what I'm trying to say and why I'm singling that point in particular, because it's flimsy and poor and you'll get told you can play in Unranked or ATs for friend play. 

Also don't give me that garbage like it's a all encompassing truth, I've been on this game long enough to know how it was, i was there to play it since near launch. It may be true for the tippy top end of former ESL players and teams (Still remember running into Astral Authority a few times before solo queue) but I still remember back then the slew of bad players that got to places they didn't belong by playing in premades(Having been in matches against), but then they queue solo later on, because their premade took a break or something. Landing on my team. Then only to see they had no idea what they were doing half the time, or weren't very good players to begin with, but they got carried regardless. 

2 - You're misinterpreting the post that isn't even meant for you. Are you really going to tell me PVE was designed to be a competative game space rather than a co-op space? Compared to PVP where it's 2 of players teams fighting each other for a win which is by essence a competative? Whenever I speak on the subject of actual competitiveness it's in terms of equalized playing field, the only people that ever get salty about equalize playing fields are people that want a advantage.  5 man was taken on a poll vote, don't blame the solos for that, blame Anet, and also blame them for not doing another poll. 

[Genesis.5169]

38 minutes ago, Lucentfir.7430 said:

 but I still remember back then the slew of bad players that got to places they didn't belong by playing in premade

Yep, people think premades are autowin.
They got carried by working together and having organizational skills.
This here is what has been destroying pvp people who think like this, the rest of your post is just reaffirming this belief right here and THAT IS WRONG.

Premades do not suddenly make you a good player. You know why bad teams exist because they have bad players, and good teams exist because they have good players, the only thing the removal of premades did was remove players out the game and placate this stupid way of thinking.

[Lucentfir.7430]

22 minutes ago, Genesis.5169 said:

Yep, people think premades are autowin.
They got carried by working together and having organizational skills.
This here is what has been destroying pvp people who think like this, the rest of your post is just reaffirming this belief right here and THAT IS WRONG.

Premades do not suddenly make you a good player. You know why bad teams exist because they have bad players, and good teams exist because they have good players, the only thing the removal of premades did was remove players out the game and placate this stupid way of thinking.

It was pretty much a auto win after you get to a certain point of hidden MMR when you run as solo, below that point there are plenty of bad premades, don't know why you're speaking like people deny their existence. Also yes, carried until they get thrown against a equally organized group that works together too, right?  Like say a leveled playing field? :] You bold and point to that specific thing which is about individual skill level, but it's pretty much saying the same thing as asking why there's a silver level player in platinum level player game. You want to know what destroyed PVP?  Really its is a mixture and not singular cause.  ESL died, game mode negligence,  also the top end had free reign of the place to do whatever they wanted, and pollute the waters with plenty of bad events/practices, constant watering down of the game mode, FFA Arena addition and we'll throw in the removal of premade mixed queue as a bit of good faith so you don't lose your mind over it. 

Why do you make it sound like that's what people are trying to say? Of course it doesn't make you a good player it gives unbalanced advantage over the competition with the way matchmaking matches. Are you just going to straight up deny that premade provides a advantage to to bad players?  Crazy idea since it apparently going to be a needed skill to play the game to work together and have organizational skills , How about we let go of solo entirely and force full 5 man only for ranked, for a season or two and see how that'll pan out, or do premade advocates really need matchmade unorganized stepping stones to progress?  

[FarmBotXD.1430]

3 hours ago, Genesis.5169 said:

Yep, people think premades are autowin.
They got carried by working together and having organizational skills.
This here is what has been destroying pvp people who think like this, the rest of your post is just reaffirming this belief right here and THAT IS WRONG.

Premades do not suddenly make you a good player. You know why bad teams exist because they have bad players, and good teams exist because they have good players, the only thing the removal of premades did was remove players out the game and placate this stupid way of thinking.

premade vs no premade is an huge advantage.
if you pit 2 good, random players vs 2 good premade players, premade wins hands down.
better teamplay, comp synergy and knowing each-other playstyle on top of voice-coms is an huge advantage.
The only games that can get away with "team queue" vs solo queue type are the ones where all those things are thought about.
Things like build in voice-coms to remove voice advantage, good balance ( so classes dont make huge difference ), and solo hard carry potential.
Its usually just shooters with voice coms that can get away with it, every other type of game struggles to make that happen.

[Genesis.5169]

13 hours ago, FarmBotXD.1430 said:

premade vs no premade is an huge advantage.
if you pit 2 good, random players vs 2 good premade players, premade wins hands down.
better teamplay, comp synergy and knowing each-other playstyle on top of voice-coms is an huge advantage.
The only games that can get away with "team queue" vs solo queue type are the ones where all those things are thought about.
Things like build in voice-coms to remove voice advantage, good balance ( so classes dont make huge difference ), and solo hard carry potential.
Its usually just shooters with voice coms that can get away with it, every other type of game struggles to make that happen.

So premades are autowin.
Yeah you don't need to repeat it i nailed you guys pretty well already. You guys must be protected from the notion that you lost because of a 5man not because you were bad i know.

Edited January 5, 2022 by Genesis.5169

[tacoclaw.8251]

GW2 is not a pvp game. Go find a real pvp game. What's wrong with you guys? 10,000 crybaby threads, each one about how broken pvp is. GW2 pvp is just for throw away fun. 

 

Go look at all the classes and all the builds. How do you balance that? You can't. Go find a pvp game designed for pvp balance. GW2  PVP is about 20%skill, 55% who you draw, and about25% build. How can you take that personally or seriously? 

 

So just relax and don't take it seriously. 

[TheQuickFox.3826]

On 1/1/2022 at 6:58 PM, mziven.2095 said:

PVP is currently a frustrating and unenjoyable experience because it is inundated with nonhuman players (bots), AFK teammates, and toxic teammates. These three issues can be resolved or mitigated by allowing players to queue with full teams instead of only two people.

 

Having a random stranger waste your time by either refusing to play or by typing derogatory comments in chat is frustrating and entirely unwelcome. Although bot teammates exhibit neither of  characteristics, and as such are often superior to many random partners, their predictability and poor decision making often makes them more of a liability than an asset. In most cases, a bot teammate is also unwelcome and frustrating to play with. Removing bots from PvP, preventing afk teammates, and policing player interactions is challenging and resource intensive for game developers (devs). However, these problems can largely be mitigated by allowing players to select their entire team.

 

Allowing players to queue with full teams, instead of only two players, will  essentially bypass the previously listed problems. This option will provide players the opportunity to play with friends, people that are less likely be verbally abusive or go afk, and without bots. Additionally, teams can remove player/s from their group between matches or exclude/avoid them in the future if they are toxic or delinquent. These features are already available for tournaments and are facilitated by the Looking For Group (lfg) tab so should require minimum effort to implement. Ultimately, the option to queue with a full team improves player agency and enjoyment with minimal dev effort. 

 

TLDR: Five person queues resolves or mitigates the problems of afk teammates, toxic teammates, and bot teammates and will require minimum effort to implement. 

 

 

Solution is fine, but make it a different team arena game. Team builds can be highly optimized with designated team roles like DPS, support and cap/decap. A good team build will always win from 5 randoms with good individual builds who do not know what kind of team compo they will get.

[Genesis.5169]

2 hours ago, TheQuickFox.3826 said:

 

Solution is fine, but make it a different team arena game. Team builds can be highly optimized with designated team roles like DPS, support and cap/decap. A good team build will always win from 5 randoms with good individual builds who do not know what kind of team compo they will get.

Gold 2 Team vs random plat 2 who wins.
Silver 2 Team vs random gold 2 who wins.
Gold 3 vs Plat random who wins.

Remember teams are autowin.

Edited January 11, 2022 by Genesis.5169

[pablauto.4210]

I can see that a group of 5 players in premade does have a small advantage over a group of 5 random players.

The proposal is to look for other teams with 5 players in premade, or at least one with 3 players and a duo.

As I said earlier, this decision to have ranked with only two players reduces the number of players.
 

I'll look for another game to do PVP because as I said I can't get gear and achievements playing with friends.
I think it's a bad idea to limit only one pair to play PVP, as they said here in the post they won't play and will probably look for another game that can pvp with friends.
 

I can't understand why you prefer to have fewer players and have less competition for a small chance of getting a more balanced team. Would you rather catch more bots and have less players of the same level than accept a math making that accepts groups?

I really can't understand.

And I speak again. Several MMO, MOBA and others games have PVP with premade group vs random. WHEN a team is not found the random is activated.

[Shiyo.3578]

Any purely team based PvP Game(overwatch, this, dota, LoL, etc) shouldn't allow anything but full premade in a ranked environment. All it's done is caused EXTREMELY rude behavior and angry communities to be the norm in all of these games.

 

[mziven.2095]

Holy hell, let me play with my friends!

[AusarViled.7106]

Not sure if this is a necro, but as a pvp player, i can confirm bots are better then most people i fight with in unranked practice. I would prefer 3 holosmith or minionmancers bots then 3 matched players because at minimum they wont be useless. Unfortunately, there are a lot of bots- as of EoD. My observations

 

Most Common bots:

1) Engineer with jade bot, dragon hunter paladin, torment pistol necro, BG ranger with bow

 

Common bots:

1) Mesmer [chrono], Warrior [all kinds]

 

Rare to see as bots:

1) Thief [unless P/P 3 spammer], Revenent [unless stomper].

 

The experience is awful. Most bots dodge instantly unlike real players [dropping shields, dropping aoe's where your going even if you faint, knowing where you are through stealth, and instant casting]. Makes the bots hard to win if your the only player. Although it is easy to predict them.  

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

On 1/11/2022 at 3:15 PM, Shiyo.3578 said:

Any purely team based PvP Game(overwatch, this, dota, LoL, etc) shouldn't allow anything but full premade in a ranked environment. All it's done is caused EXTREMELY rude behavior and angry communities to be the norm in all of these games.

 

and an un****ingbelievably high amount of synch queue match manipulation

Edited April 11, 2022 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[SexFuhrer.7925]

well most games vs premades ive win with pugs but, fast passed zerk fest feels super awfull, pvp mode punish u hardly if u didnt react fast enaf to incoming enemy actions, dh's that make 5-8k dmg from true shot and use trapper rune with stealth, bois with barrage and maul spam, this game mode now have super fast passed fights, even if u pretty expirienced player u will sruggle alot from this. why just didnt back a bit to vanilla pvp course and make fights just a bit slower and more friendly for casual players and newcommers&

[Kozumi.5816]

This game mode was designed with 5v5 premades in mind. That is why its terrible with randoms.

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

On 1/11/2022 at 2:15 PM, Shiyo.3578 said:

Any purely team based PvP Game(overwatch, this, dota, LoL, etc) shouldn't allow anything but full premade in a ranked environment. All it's done is caused EXTREMELY rude behavior and angry communities to be the norm in all of these games.

 

I know this is several months old, but...

I don't think this is it, chief. LoL has split queues, so its hardly even a concern there at all really.

 

Overwatch is closer to Gw2 in this respect, but matchmaking in that game is also very different. A full 6-man premade can sit in queue anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour to find an even match.

This is like the polar opposite of Gw2. Gw2 will broaden your mmr after a few minutes in queue and will continue to do so until you find a match, meaning that the queue times will always be much lower, but the quality of the match you were searching for can easily be 500-50 dogwater whybother trash.

 

If any of these games were premades only, very few of them would probably exist today.

Unless the human condition has changed in the months since your post, I feel pretty confident saying most people dislike the prospect of grouping up with a bunch of total strangers to hang out in queue together for a long time, possibly for the same results they would have gotten as a SoloQ.

 

But nah; after playing Ranked for 18 seasons, I think the biggest reason people are so toxic there is because they're frustrated and have been pushed to their respective snapping points by Ranked's unfair and dated design.

It takes some saintly patience not to just openly resent everyone when; no matter how well you play, you're losing several games worth of rating for every loss and only gaining about a third of that for every win all while dodging bots, sketchy legendary power couples, and people who sit in spawn & do nothing the moment they realize a match is going about as expected.

[Nymthalas.4019]

On 1/8/2022 at 3:20 AM, tacoclaw.8251 said:

GW2 is not a pvp game. Go find a real pvp game. What's wrong with you guys? 10,000 crybaby threads, each one about how broken pvp is. GW2 pvp is just for throw away fun. 

 

Go look at all the classes and all the builds. How do you balance that? You can't. Go find a pvp game designed for pvp balance. GW2  PVP is about 20%skill, 55% who you draw, and about25% build. How can you take that personally or seriously? 

 

So just relax and don't take it seriously. 

till recently this same argument could be used for PvE, and still there is broken classes.

 

20 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

and an un****ingbelievably high amount of synch queue match manipulation

thats anet negligence you have to look an idea on that and ban people, all games have that but only gw2 makes that and excuse to not let players join pvp with party.

 

 

For the rating make loosing to premades when you are not premade loosing very little mmr, so at least it reflect it was an unfair match, I mean if instead of loosing 15/9 mmr make it loose 1/3 , they will win but i dont loose much, and btw I prefer to loose against premades and being able to play with friends than loosing with randoms in my team and not being able to play with friends.

 

There should be less tournaments, get tournament ppl back into pvp, and make the tournaments 15 v 15 to make guilds have some meaning in pvp, not the joke they right now.

[GhandiBot.6257]

I don't think you need a 5 man ranked queue but rather an AT at every hour of the day.

 

Make the AT rewards less, and require more QP for MAT.