Revive Mesmers, Anet

[GrimDanny.7039]

Here is another plead, to nobody. But let me write down my thoughts here anyway, because I know that there are others like me with the same thinking.

It is 2022 and we all know that this means nothing to anet when it comes to making a decent change for the gameplay of mesmers. Heck anet has broken a very attractive class. What? No. We all know that this unwise decision of chopping mesmers, also lead to players losing interest in ever playing their characters at all. Unwise for the simple fact that mesmers are useless compared to other classes. They're no useful support. No dps. No sustain. No nothing at all. You can pve with mesmers, and fool the dumb, predictable enemies; but most of us endgame players don't play pve. Our thing is pvp and wvw. We invest in our characters to be good for wvw and pvp, not pve.  Period. But friend, when I started out in guild wars 2, about 2 years ago, I was interested in this clone-creating, mind-shattering class called mesmer. I was so excited about playing this unique class that I went long extents with mines. And deleted him the same way, after I learned of other classes. And then I remade him again, and tried a thousand builds, but no, mesmers will never good the way they are. Oh but the whining! Yep, if I didn't like this class, I wouldn't bother, but the fact is, I do.

I play pvp and wvw on 6 other characters and they are all successful in any build I make for them. But my mesmer just won't cut it with any build. 

The trolls will say "YOu doN'T KNOw hOw tO PLay BRo." We all know you'll say this because you know nothing of guild wars 2 and the other classes available. It's like- reapers or guardians or rangers(and all others) are BMW's that go 280km/h while mesmers are those little smart vehicles that run at 60km/h. Oh man, I'd love to come home from work one day, to receive news of a patch that would turn that defenseless guy of no useful perks, into a decent and playable class in pvp and wvw.

Say what you want to try and contradict me, but we who have tried all classes in multiple builds either for pvp and wvw... know better.

/cry

Edited January 2, 2022 by GrimDanny.7039
I didn't write "kittens"

[piitb.7635]

PvP has become nothing more than a game of attrition.  Classes without survivability fold very fast.  and those that have survivability are meta

 

Thats why necros and guardians are dominant and mesmers and warriors are kind of near the bottom.

[Infusion.7149]

If you're going to complain about mesmer in PVP/WVW exclusively, then fix the title. In addition, PVE players far outnumber PVP players by far. Arguably WvW has an amount of players coming in just for Gift of Battle and Conflux, so I'm not sure if you can call everyone in WvW actually interested in fighting other players.

Either way side mirage is actually common in PVP along with interrupt mirage , I still see core power shatter sometimes as well. In WvW you an run chrono in groups and outside of squads you can use core power shatter or double energy sigil mirage (which even after nerfs is usable but not nearly as strong).

[ysnake.3619]

For PvP - I could understand why Mesmers should be buffed - but in WvW, Mesmers are doing okay? They are not some godtier, but Trailblazer's is ridiculously good on pretty much anything - I often play the "cheesy" staff Mesmer and do well with it, too well might I add.

 

The whole idea of shattering and clone confusion is amazing, however - one thing that arenanet must take into account is how FUN is Mesmer to play against? Mesmer has pretty good access to the most broken ability in the game: Stealth - this cannot be understated - on my Mesmer, I would gladly give up some Stealth stuff to be able to survive otherwise and provide anything outside of a few niche scenarios.

 

Mesmer is one of those classes that: you can see who is good on it and who is not - while other classes leave room for the middle ground, the Mesmer does not, you are either a god at it or completely horrible (I fall into the latter category myself). 

 

Perhaps the new expansion can breathe some light into Mesmers being less unfun to play against and more viable and fun to play AS.

[Obliviscaris.6937]

4 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

If you're going to complain about mesmer in PVP/WVW exclusively, then fix the title. In addition, PVE players far outnumber PVP players by far. Arguably WvW has an amount of players coming in just for Gift of Battle and Conflux, so I'm not sure if you can call everyone in WvW actually interested in fighting other players.

Either way side mirage is actually common in PVP along with interrupt mirage , I still see core power shatter sometimes as well. In WvW you an run chrono in groups and outside of squads you can use core power shatter or double energy sigil mirage (which even after nerfs is usable but not nearly as strong).

 

The title is fine. 

 

There was no need to make it into another PvE vs PvE thing, but I'm sure it was worth it to try and score some clout.

I hope nobody is even insinuating that PvE involves any comparative measure of skill when compared to PvP senarios. It's not even a discussion that anyone is going to be having here.

Mesmer isn't fine, and the response I've quoted reads like Stockholm syndrome. Which is unfortunate because Mesmer players deserve better than they've been given, but have been conditioned to sit and suck it up.

Edited January 2, 2022 by Obliviscaris.6937

[FarmBotXD.1430]

6 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

If you're going to complain about mesmer in PVP/WVW exclusively, then fix the title. In addition, PVE players far outnumber PVP players by far. Arguably WvW has an amount of players coming in just for Gift of Battle and Conflux, so I'm not sure if you can call everyone in WvW actually interested in fighting other players.

Either way side mirage is actually common in PVP along with interrupt mirage , I still see core power shatter sometimes as well. In WvW you an run chrono in groups and outside of squads you can use core power shatter or double energy sigil mirage (which even after nerfs is usable but not nearly as strong).

the only thing mesmer doesnt suck at is raids
everywhere else mesmer is dog

[Salt Mode.3780]

9 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

If you're going to complain about mesmer in PVP/WVW exclusively, then fix the title. In addition, PVE players far outnumber PVP players by far. Arguably WvW has an amount of players coming in just for Gift of Battle and Conflux, so I'm not sure if you can call everyone in WvW actually interested in fighting other players.

Either way side mirage is actually common in PVP along with interrupt mirage , I still see core power shatter sometimes as well. In WvW you an run chrono in groups and outside of squads you can use core power shatter or double energy sigil mirage (which even after nerfs is usable but not nearly as strong).

The only real reason why this is even a thing is because they worked on PvE more then they have in PvP or WvW. Check year 1 of GW2 PvE was non existent, stop trying to making PvP or WvW irrelevant by downplaying the numbers. The only reason why the numbers are lower is because again they stopped working on PvP and WvW over the years and those who enjoyed WvW and PvP have either left or moved on from the game. 

If you haven't noticed its WAY easier to balance PvE then PvP or WvW its a cop out from its original origins of the game especially how they heavily advertised on WvW at the beginning of release. I hope they keep their promise in saying that they were going to focus more on WvW in EoD but from the looks of the recent updates....there is nothing much to be said.

Edited January 3, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Simonoly.4352]

It is a bit of a slog playing Mesmer in WvW these days and I'd welcome some attention to the many ineffective traits plaguing the class at present. I really do think Mesmer needs more WvW versions of skills as many of the sPvP versions feel inappropriate for a game mode full of enormous battles.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

HOW TO REVIVE MIRAGE

1. Give it back its second dodge.
2. Limit max clones to 2; we want drawbacks? That's a drawback. You get stronger clones (with Axes of Symmetry\Illusionary Ambush they can be teleported around and with Infinite Horizon they can fight), but you get less of them. Makes sense if you ask me.
3. Rework Desert Distortion, as it allows way too much evade stacking; 3 clone distortion into 4 mirage mirrors into signet of illusions into distortion again into mirage mirrors again (that without counting all the stealth\ports\evades\blinds you get as a mesmer) is just infuriating for people to fight against. Maybe turn it into a trait that grants your auras to clones too, to fit the whole "mirage clones can fight" theme.

HOW TO REVIVE CORE

1. Allow Phantasmal Mage to turn around while casting, so you can't just walk behind the very slow NPC to deny the skill
2. Arcane Thievery either needs to be able to hit people behind you, or it needs to turn you while casting it. RN having your only cleanse reliably not casting because the angle is slightly off is infuriating; all other skills have the common decency of turning you at the very least.
3. Nerf everything about staff AA from clones.
4. Do something with Phantasmal Warlock. 18s cd for 1k damage on zerk amulet can't be justified in any way.
5. Lower cast time of Phantasmal Disenchanter. Why this guy takes 1s to cast?
6. Phantasmal Berserker needs more damage. Empowered Illusions should be used to improve its damage, but it competes with Bountiful Blades; who thought it was a good idea? This skill takes 1.9s before the first hit actually lands; such a long cast time deserves damage.
7. Change numbers according to the mantra rework. Mantra of Recovery is the worst healing skill in game (except Mantra of Solace; I feel you firebrands) and without the charge healing, it needs to have the cd adjusted at the very least; Mantra of Pain does nothing.

HOW TO REVIVE CHRONO
Assuming the class can be revived without a rework from scratch (it's not the case, but let's assume)

1. Increase Gravity Well's knockdown\float duration from 1s to 1.25s: having the skill's CC equal to the tick duration means you can get out of the well with skills that aren't stunbreaks. Check this Short's stream for reference
2. Well of Precognition cd down to 30s, 45s is way too much: on cast it grants 0.5s evade to the user, instead of 1s stab
3. Allow Tides of Time to be casted behind. RN it sends itself to CD without casting way too often due to facing issues

Edited January 3, 2022 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Obliviscaris.6937]

11 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Nerf everything about staff AA from clones

No.

[SeTect.5918]

Buff "time warp" slow duration in pve, ty.

[phokus.8934]

2 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

HOW TO REVIVE MIRAGE

1. Give it back its second dodge.
2. Limit max clones to 2
3. Rework Desert Distortion, as it allows way too much evade stacking; into 3 clone distortion into 4 mirage mirrors into signet of illusions into distortion again into mirage mirrors again into dodge is just infuriating for people to fight against. Maybe turn it into a trait that grants your auras to clones too, to fit the whole "mirage clones can fight" theme.
4. Nerf everything about staff AA from clones.

The second dodge will never make a comeback unless they don't allow Mirage to perform actions while cc'd.

You won't need to rework desert distortion if you limit clones to 2.

And staff anything doesn't need to be touched other than the warlocks.

[Mungo Zen.9364]

3 hours ago, phokus.8934 said:

The second dodge will never make a comeback unless they don't allow Mirage to perform actions while cc'd.

You won't need to rework desert distortion if you limit clones to 2.

And staff anything doesn't need to be touched other than the warlocks.

I'd actually like to see Anet give Mirage 1 dodge in all game modes and then rebalance around that.  As we are getting the new Rev 1 Dodge eSpec, may as well double down on Mirage as well and streamline the eSpec towards that.

[Infusion.7149]

If you have to ask why, then you probably haven't explored the opposing point of view and look at only things that confirm your bias. Most mesmers I have seen that actually want balance wanted Infinite Horizon or clone ambushes nerfed instead of dodges.

Here's Vallun's take after "one dodge" patches. He's mainly a thief so it's a bit ironic since thief has Consume Plasma.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3hT99Hdajg
I might not necessarily agree with it since it's a power mirage, but unless you can address every point he makes then his case is rather strong. In this video he suggests using double energy sigils,  Rune of Evasion and Blurred Inscriptions as evasion via distortion. Sword as you know has a blur on it as well as the mobility on mirage ambush.

[Salt Mode.3780]

Truth be told at this point in the game Mesmer mains especially those who main Mirage already lost hope of ever getting the 2nd dodge back. 

At this point in the game just balance Mirage based on the one dodge nerf like Vindicator. Or revert all our previous nerfs due to having 2 dodges. Or simply reduce the fixed endurance regen because its 8 seconds with vigor + food.

[FarmBotXD.1430]

4 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

If you have to ask why, then you probably haven't explored the opposing point of view and look at only things that confirm your bias. Most mesmers I have seen that actually want balance wanted Infinite Horizon or clone ambushes nerfed instead of dodges.

Here's Vallun's take after "one dodge" patches. He's mainly a thief so it's a bit ironic since thief has Consume Plasma.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3hT99Hdajg
I might not necessarily agree with it since it's a power mirage, but unless you can address every point he makes then his case is rather strong. In this video he suggests using double energy sigils,  Rune of Evasion and Blurred Inscriptions as evasion via distortion. Sword as you know has a blur on it as well as the mobility on mirage ambush.

Inspiration GS power mirage.
why do we listen to opinion of this guy again?
I think mesmer haters dont look at it from OUR perspective.
Here is a perspective of someone that changed classes.
It took me 0 games on ranger to get better winrate then on mesmer.From the get go I already performed better
After ~100 games ( playing off-meta and for fun ) I already reached higher rankings then on mesmer.
My winrates are higher, I win 1v1 more, I can fit more rolles, its better in pvp and pve.
Mesmer just kittening sucks, and mesmer hater video is not going to change that.
You have to be delusional to think all sustain, mobility and survivability nerfs can be overcame with energy sigil ( PS everyone uses energy sigils )
You wont kill good players on berserker full DPS mesmer, let alone some troll kitten inspiration demilisher with swiftness runes lol.
This is the kind off build that gets ignored entire game and does nothing.
 

[Salt Mode.3780]

Here is probably the saddest part is that Mesmer's build are reduced further down from nerfs and now resorting to being part spec with a full support line in order to compensate some of the sustain that was taken away from us over the years of nerf.

Again people coming up with video's that most of the player base cannot achieve that high level of skill.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

29 minutes ago, FarmBotXD.1430 said:

Inspiration GS power mirage.
why do we listen to opinion of this guy again?
I think mesmer haters dont look at it from OUR perspective.
Here is a perspective of someone that changed classes.
It took me 0 games on ranger to get better winrate then on mesmer.From the get go I already performed better
After ~100 games ( playing off-meta and for fun ) I already reached higher rankings then on mesmer.
My winrates are higher, I win 1v1 more, I can fit more rolles, its better in pvp and pve.
Mesmer just kittening sucks, and mesmer hater video is not going to change that.
You have to be delusional to think all sustain, mobility and survivability nerfs can be overcame with energy sigil ( PS everyone uses energy sigils )
You wont kill good players on berserker full DPS mesmer, let alone some troll kitten inspiration demilisher with swiftness runes lol.
This is the kind off build that gets ignored entire game and does nothing.

You can certainly kill good players as a full dps mesmer.

That being said even he has to swap to condi mirage sometimes. So your point isn't 100% wrong. Ranger is easier to pull off at the moment than power mesmer.

Edited January 3, 2022 by Daniel Handler.4816

[Terrorhuz.4695]

5 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

If you have to ask why, then you probably haven't explored the opposing point of view and look at only things that confirm your bias. Most mesmers I have seen that actually want balance wanted Infinite Horizon or clone ambushes nerfed instead of dodges.

Here's Vallun's take after "one dodge" patches. He's mainly a thief so it's a bit ironic since thief has Consume Plasma.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3hT99Hdajg
I might not necessarily agree with it since it's a power mirage, but unless you can address every point he makes then his case is rather strong. In this video he suggests using double energy sigils,  Rune of Evasion and Blurred Inscriptions as evasion via distortion. Sword as you know has a blur on it as well as the mobility on mirage ambush.

> daredevil
> comparing about other people dodging

Trash take from trash video brought forth by a trash player that spams trash builds on his trash youtube channel.

There is literally 0 to save here.

Edited January 3, 2022 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Salt Mode.3780]

3 minutes ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

You can certainly kill good players as a full dps mesmer.

That being said even he has to swap to condi mirage sometimes. So your point isn't 100% wrong. Ranger is easier to pull off at the moment than power mesmer.

Again posting videos of people that are literally the peak of their profession. Good job cuz im pretty sure the rest of the playerbase plays like him and or at the same skill lvl.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

6 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Again posting videos of people that are literally the peak of their profession. Good job cuz im pretty sure the rest of the playerbase plays like him and or at the same skill lvl.

Because the person I'm responding to says that Mesmer sucks. It doesn't. Just a good chunk of people can't play at that level. But no one wants to have that discussion. 

According to OP discussing this at all makes you a troll.

I think it is somewhere in-between. People are bad at this game AND Mesmer doesn't have enough of a pay off for the amount of effort you have to put into it.

Edited January 4, 2022 by Daniel Handler.4816

[Salt Mode.3780]

13 minutes ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

Because the person I'm responding to says that Mesmer sucks. It doesn't. Just a good chunk of people can't play at that level. But no one wants to have that discussion. 

According to OP discussing this at all makes you a troll.

I think it is somewhere in-between. People are bad at this game AND Mesmer doesn't have enough of a pay off for the amount of effort you have to put into it.

Again if you watched all of Short's videos he discussed on how lackluster mesmer is. In a scenario in a 1 v 1 situation at the same skill level Mesmer will ALWAYS fall short especially vs any of the leather classes. Again please do your research before just posting 1 vid because he has mentioned countless times how bad of a state mesmer is. 

Playing at that level vs another class playing at that level is night and day which class needs work and which needs nerf that is the main discussion not linking a video showing 1 person doing extremely well on mesmer because the person has main the class since release is not to be used as a benchmark that the class as a whole is fine.

Edited January 4, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Infusion.7149]

4 minutes ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

Because the person I'm responding to says that Mesmer sucks. It doesn't. Just a good chunk of people can't play at that level. But no one wants to have that discussion. 

According to OP discussing this at all makes you a troll.

I think it is somewhere in-between. People are bad at this game AND Mesmer doesn't have enough of a pay off for the amount of effort you have to put into it.

Exactly. thing is mesmer was NEVER advertised as an easy to play class. Classes that are dominating the meta right now such as necro , guard, rev, and holo are much easier to execute.

Last AT , Dec 2021:

2 mirages in the video, one is roaming (swiss round 5) and one in swiss round 2.

November 2021 AT:
Swiss round 1 , swiss round 4

The reality is mesmer is not as "trash"  as people make it out to be even if it is not nearly as strong as the dominant specs.

[FarmBotXD.1430]

28 minutes ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

You can certainly kill good players as a full dps mesmer.

That being said even he has to swap to condi mirage sometimes. So your point isn't 100% wrong. Ranger is easier to pull off at the moment than power mesmer.

its funny because people he kills dont even know moa 5 is an evade, are these the good people you mean?
the ones that dont know how mesmer skill works? skill that has been in the game since 2012?

Spoiler alert, he switches classes when he is against good players.

Edited January 4, 2022 by FarmBotXD.1430

[Daniel Handler.4816]

6 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Again if you watched all of Short's videos he discussed on how lackluster mesmer is. In a scenario in a 1 v 1 situation at the same skill level Mesmer will ALWAYS fall short especially vs any of the leather classes. Again please do your research before just posting 1 vid because he has mentioned countless times how bad of a state mesmer is. 

Playing at that level vs another class playing at that level is night and day which class needs work and which needs nerf that is the main discussion not linking a video showing 1 person doing extremely well on mesmer because the person has main the class since release as a benchmark that the class as a whole is fine.

So I don't want to be pedantic. But there is a difference between "sucks" and "lackluster."
And he has dueled "leather classes" at the same level and won.

Yes mesmer needs some work. It is not a dumpster fire.