About the WvW restructuring

[panthera onca.4251]

On 1/15/2022 at 10:22 AM, yoni.7015 said:

Just join a WvW guild, problem solved. 

Most are in WvW guilds but not in mass guilds... some are in guilds wich have Alliances with other guilds but as anet dont gives us possibility to choose an friend guild to play with as promised ... ( in gw1 we had a nice system and working system) ... all small guilds are little kittened up these betas... most ppl even dont have a guild free for joining another guild... so its anets time to keep promises and stop only to support blobbguilds... yes they are many players but all the roamers/casuals/smallscalefighters should be heard too ... if anet wants an WVW only for elitists let us know so the other players have time to check wich other games to play instead of wasting time waiting for a system made for all not only for a part of the wvw community ... we are waiting long enough ( i remember the " testing" of linking different languages and the promise our guild could choose a language for alliance system - still waiting for test to end ... and think anet forgot in eu not alle understand every language and not all learn english at school ) think its time to work on beta in wich real alliances could be choosen and not for many ppl only chance is to go on vacation from WvW or gw2 ... 

 

[The Boz.2038]

We hade a WvW system in GW1?
News to me..

[yoni.7015]

17 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

It's rare to find someone in France, Germany, and Italy able to to speak English on more than a tourist level. The education-system never really supports it. If it did there would be no need to dub everything.

At least for Germany that’s nonsense and absolutely not true. 

[Danikat.8537]

On 1/17/2022 at 4:14 PM, Klendathu.2518 said:

 Fells like some ppl cant read. But maybe i phrased it weirdly. 

This is not about success. 

1. We DO Command, we DO put up a tag and we DO offer discord/ts . if someone else is leading we support them. but suddenly all commited players we had are gone. and communications and squads stay empty no matter what we do.

2. We have a lot of people we played with for years. Its IMPOSSIBLE to keep playing with them since they are all part of different guilds, wich has never been a problem since we all played on the same server. 

3. active players WILL get fed up with playing with unorganized randoms and as a result flock to large guilds wich will be the server system all over again. where your ability to even play is determined by whether or not you get matched with one of these guilds.

This will be fixed when the actual alliance part of the system comes in. Those different guilds will be able to form an alliance, so they can stay together. (If I remember correctly there will also be an option for individual players to join an alliance even if their guild isn't in it.)

Of course that's only if they want to. If they choose to join a different alliance there's nothing you can do to stop them. But that's the same as now, if someone chooses to transfer to another server you can't keep them on yours because you consider them an important part of your community, your options are to follow them or let them go.

[Zok.4956]

1 hour ago, yoni.7015 said:

At least for Germany that’s nonsense and absolutely not true. 

Of course its true for Germany.  It depends mostly on when and where you went to school in Germany.

[panthera onca.4251]

On 1/19/2022 at 9:10 AM, The Boz.2038 said:

We hade a WvW system in GW1?
News to me..

we had alliances of guilds in gw1 and the luxon vs kurzick parts were the first ways otw to wvw in gw2 🙂

 

[Cyninja.2954]

On 1/18/2022 at 10:14 PM, Malus.2184 said:

I had a commander. I was on Discord, he called for "Smoke" and I was utterly confused until he explained that when he said "Smoke" he meant the Stealth Gyro.

Sorry, but that's a class knowledge issue or general understanding of what a commander might call, NOT a language barrier issue.

There are a limited amount of calls a commander has to make. Everything else is filler. If he tells you his life story and you need that to focus, good for him and you. If not, all he needs to communicate is: general direction, a few amount of skills (bubble, wells, tomes if micromanaging and maybe dodges if super micromanaging). Beyond that it's stacking might, swiftness and stealth.

Smoke in this case refers to https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Smoke_field

Which is used to blasting stealth. Which in public squads often is done in addition to using the stealth gyro.

To any experienced player with half a brain this should NOT be a mystery. Kitten, he could call "go not see, not see" at the top of his lungs and any experienced player should know what to do.

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That would never had been able to be communicated if either of us only spoke a tourist leve of English. You seem to misunderstand vastly exactly how bad "tourist" level is. Are you by any chance an English-speaking native?

I've known WvW players who were members of polish WvW guilds, didn't understand a thing, caught up on what left and right was, understood when bubble was called, and all was fine.

If others are able to manage with understanding and cooperating with only knowing a few words, tourist level is fine.

Edited January 21, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Nova.6084]

This is what my assigned server feels like. A bunch of randoms getting put together. No guilds at all and it would've been fine with enough people, but it's just the few of us against Red, blobbing us (and the other server) down for the week. Their population balancing still needs a lot of work.

[Malus.2184]

5 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Sorry, but that's a class knowledge issue or general understanding of what a commander might call, NOT a language barrier issue.

That was specifically a language issue. The commander themselves told me that it was easier for them to just say "smoke" since they, I would guess from the accent, are from France. They knew the real name, for them using that label was just easier. Language instead of ignorance.

Today I had a commander call for Bubble, they spoke English, and I still have no clue what they meant. I should have asked. And I speak English as well, how is someone with only passable English language skills going to be able to understand that?

  

5 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

I've known WvW players who were members of polish WvW guilds, didn't understand a thing, caught up on what left and right was, understood when bubble was called, and all was fine.

If others are able to manage with understanding and cooperating with only knowing a few words, tourist level is fine.

The only thing I get from that is that you're unwilling to answer the question and try to talk around it by pretending you gave an answer.

What you're describing is also self-selection. Of course they had good English skills as they were willing to play on an English server. Iirc Poland is also open to non-Polish speakers, unless you only speak German or Russian, as such their, thosee individuals would have English skills that ranged from passable to excellent. You mostly only encounter those who have at least a passable grasp as those wouldf be the minimum level of ability needed to communicate with. Their level experience is far from the worst.

Learn to understand how to interpret data. To me your expression of anecdotal data as valid just mmakes you seem arrogant and under a massive Dunning Kruger effect.

I also at some point mentioned German, French, and Italian since those are the three most isolated language groups due to Nationalistic sentiments. I fail to see what effect Poland have on Germany, France, and Italy. Or relevance to them for that matter.

Edited January 21, 2022 by Malus.2184

[quaniesan.8497]

This  "restructuring" has to end, and never to be brought up again.  I got stuck with a dead town. No matter what time i got in, barely anyone up doing anything.  Please stop.  

[Cyninja.2954]

9 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

That was specifically a language issue. The commander themselves told me that it was easier for them to just say "smoke" since they, I would guess from the accent, are from France. They knew the real name, for them using that label was just easier. Language instead of ignorance.

Today I had a commander call for Bubble, they spoke English, and I still have no clue what they meant. I should have asked. And I speak English as well, how is someone with only passable English language skills going to be able to understand that?

Similar situation:

 

Bubble = Winds of Disenchantment. Rather clear given it's the only large "bubble" like skill a commander will ask for.

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The only thing I get from that is that you're unwilling to answer the question and try to talk around it by pretending you gave an answer.

What you're describing is also self-selection. Of course they had good English skills as they were willing to play on an English server. Iirc Poland is also open to non-Polish speakers, unless you only speak German or Russian, as such their, thosee individuals would have English skills that ranged from passable to excellent.

No, I gave that example because I knew that the entire squad was lead in polish with only some select words and commands being given in english. My guild mate does not speak polish.

 

I even said: my guild mate caught up on some polish words which was sufficient to perform.

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You mostly only encounter those who have at least a passable grasp as those wouldf be the minimum level of ability needed to communicate with. Their level experience is far from the worst.

Learn to understand how to interpret data. To me your expression of anecdotal data as valid just mmakes you seem arrogant and under a massive Dunning Kruger effect.

I also at some point mentioned German, French, and Italian since those are the three most isolated language groups due to Nationalistic sentiments. I fail to see what effect Poland have on Germany, France, and Italy. Or relevance to them for that matter.

Which data?

You shouldn't throw things around like Dunning Kruger effect this fast, all you have provided thus far yourself is anecdotal evidence, paired with clear lack of mode understanding OR and evidence to backup your claim that your a country where 3/4 of the population where under english speaking governance for nearly 45 years has such abysmal english understanding. 

Without getting into any details in regards to english understanding in younger generations.

Relevance? You made a statement in regards to WvW requiring more than just "tourist" like languange understanding of english. I merely gave an example of an even less widespread language being used in squad and how players with below tourist level knowledge had no issue to perform. In case you hade a hars time to follow this reasoning.

This looks far more like newish WvW player with little experience throwing around baseless assumptions based on anecdotal experience.

Edited January 22, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Killerassel.2197]

On 1/15/2022 at 10:22 AM, yoni.7015 said:

Just join a WvW guild, problem solved. 

I have two problems with that. First: I do not have an empty guild slot. And I don't see leaving one of my existing guilds as a solution. Second: even if rare, I want to be able to play WvW with my main guild. So I either have to convince some more players to join the same WvW guild or decide whether I want to lose my main guild or my server community.

Now, I may even be lucky. There is a realistic chance my main guild might become part of an alliance with other guilds from my server. But whether or not that is going to happen is completely out of my control.

An additional problem is that I don't play WvW enough for a dedicated WvW guild. A server community guild would probably be fine, but I don't see myself doing regular scheduled raids or put a lot more effort into it than my current casual self.

 

Regarding language barrier: I don't have much of a problem reading or writing english in team chat. But after a typical work day I'm too tired to follow an english speaking commander in TS/Discord. Especially if there is additional chatter or if heavy accents or dialects are involved after a short time I'll just get a head ache and have to leave. In the current system even in a mixed language server link there usually are public commanders from my server leading in german.

IIRC the initial post about the alliance system mentioned sorting players by language. But I think this has been dropped. Otherwise it should habe been a criterion in the beta tests.

 

I want to add a few personal anecdotes from the past beta week.

At the times I wanted to play, maps could be mostly put into two categories. Full and with too long a queue to even bother or practically dead. So I didn't play as much as I would have liked.

One time I did get on a map with an active commander. I followed for a bit then the commander has sent me away. While he couldn't force me I didn't want to stay if I'm so obviously not welcome. No commander active anywhere else, so I went back to PvE.

I spend most of my WvW time in an event organized by a player on my world. This player has been put on a different shard than me, again. This time even as a direct enemy in the same matchup. Thus I couldn't participate in his event last week. And this is actually my biggest worry about the WvW restructuring. Without a server community that is NOT bound to guilds this and similar events are probably going to die out with world restructuring.

Edited January 22, 2022 by Killerassel.2197
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[displayname.8315]

1 hour ago, Killerassel.2197 said:

I don't see myself doing regular scheduled raids or put a lot more effort into it than my current casual self.

A wall of text where you talk about rarely playing, won't join a guild, only really play when a famous commander is K-Training.. want to wvw with your PvE "main guild" but also keep the easy K-Train "organized events"

 

Yeah that checks out

[Killerassel.2197]

55 minutes ago, displayname.8315 said:

A wall of text where you talk about rarely playing, won't join a guild, only really play when a famous commander is K-Training.. want to wvw with your PvE "main guild" but also keep the easy K-Train "organized events"

 

Yeah that checks out

I tend to write longer texts to make more clear what I mean. Apparently it doesn't help because some people still misunderstand me.

I don't have a free guild slot. I cannot "just join a WvW guild". The game literally does not allow it. At least not without a trade-off  I'm not willing to make.

I did not say anything about karma trains or the commander being famous or particularly successful. In fact the event I'm referring to often has less than 20 participants. With a core of players who join every week. We win some fights, we lose some fights. We take or defend stuff, we lose stuff. But most importantly: we have fun while playing. Sure, winning is more fun than losing. But I prefer losing with a nice group over winning with a too serious and no fun group. And I don't want to lose this.

Am I not allowed to have fun in WvW as a PvE main player? Do I have to be a hardcore WvW player and member of a full-time WvW guild to have and voice an opinion about the world restructuring project?

Edited January 22, 2022 by Killerassel.2197
typo

[displayname.8315]

1 hour ago, Killerassel.2197 said:

I tend to write longer texts to make more clear what I mean. Apparently it doesn't help because some people still misunderstand me.

I don't have a free guild slot. I cannot "just join a WvW guild". The game literally does not allow it. At least not without a trade-off  I'm not willing to make.

I did not say anything about karma trains or the commander being famous or particularly successful. In fact the event I'm referring to often has less than 20 participants. With a core of players who join every week. We win some fights, we lose some fights. We take or defend stuff, we lose stuff. But most importantly: we have fun while playing. Sure, winning is more fun than losing. But I prefer losing with a nice group over winning with a too serious and no fun group. And I don't want to lose this.

Am I not allowed to have fun in WvW as a PvE main player? Do I have to be a hardcore WvW player and member of a full-time WvW guild to have and voice an opinion about the world restructuring project?

Yeah the old "5 guilds isn't enough" argument.  Personally I find that argument funny but I understand how conditioning works.  Still you shouldn't really be arguing to keep that old broken link and server system but advocating for alliances and even more guild slots.

 

Me I just like the mechanics of a good fight and I hope alliances dosen't get too out of control with the stacking of "friends" all over again.

[Killerassel.2197]

It's not so much the point if the game allows 2, 5 or 20 guilds but that I have already filled all my slots. Sure, having more guilds makes it more likely to find one I'm willing to leave. If Anet would raise the number by one in connection with the alliance system it would solve this part of the problem.

But it wouldn't solve the other problem. I would still need to decide between my main guild and a server community WvW guild. (Assuming they survive the alliance system.) Between playing with friends sometimes or playing with the community and events I enjoy. And the threat that the event I've been repeatedly referring to will die if the regular participants are distributed all over different shards is real. The same problem applies for the other players in my guild - if enough prefer a to be placed with a WvW guild the whole point is moot anyway. Though - as I already mentioned - there is a real chance my guild will join an alliance and my worries are unnecessary. But this would only solve it for me, there may be other players in a similar situation.

And don't get me wrong. I do believe that the world restructuring system will solve the problems it is trying to solve. With a better distribution of the WvW population leading to better matchups. I have occasionally even defended this point in discussions myself. And even if my beta experiences weren't all that promising this is something I'm looking forward to. The current link system has its own problems that I'm not happy with. But I want to shine a light at the possible downsides. And I hope someone more clever than me can find a solution for them. But a simplistic "just join a WvW guild" is too simple and comes with its own set of issues.

[The Boz.2038]

So... you want to play WvW with your main guild, a guild that does PvE content and never does any WvW? And somehow you think that Alliances will make this impossibility more impossible?

[Trejgon.9367]

On 1/21/2022 at 10:50 PM, Malus.2184 said:

What you're describing is also self-selection. Of course they had good English skills as they were willing to play on an English server.

There is no "Polish" GW2 server...

And I know quite alot of Polish people who play GW2 without even elementary skill to communicate in english language, mostly guildmates.

and the raids of that guild are usually run in Polish language, and recently I have noticed non-Polish-speakers on voice chat, with commander ocasionally explaining in english which command is what specifically for these people.

And I am 80% sure that this is not the same guild Cyninja was talking about 😉

[Killerassel.2197]

19 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

So... you want to play WvW with your main guild, a guild that does PvE content and never does any WvW? And somehow you think that Alliances will make this impossibility more impossible?

"Sometimes" is not the same as "never". And "mostly PvE" is not the same as "only PvE". Think like once or twice a month, for an hour or two. Definitely far away from an actual WvW guild that probably plays that much per day but also not so rare that I would dismiss it and pick another (or no) guild for WvW placement without a second though.

[The Boz.2038]

...and your problem in the "choose guild to WvW with, amongst the 5 you can enter" system is..?

[Dawdler.8521]

1 hour ago, The Boz.2038 said:

...and your problem in the "choose guild to WvW with, amongst the 5 you can enter" system is..?

Dont worry, if you see the general forum Russian PvErs want all their guilds in one grand PvE alliance because 500 is not enough so maybe Anet should simply increase the cap to 2500, skip multiple guilds and teams all together and literally just make WvW guild vs guild.

Makes sense if you think about it.

Edited January 27, 2022 by Dawdler.8521