So actually how vindi alter/bring new playstyle?

[Obtena.7952]

7 minutes ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

I'm very torn on the dodge thing because it's yet another add on which doesn't directly interact with Energy nor Legend swapping. But yes, it will most likely alter gameplay.

 

Now, the dual Legend is interesting. But to me, they missed the mark on that one. Simply due to the fact that this is an optional part on the Vindicator. An even if you set this aside, it is basically just an additional set of skills when compared to other Legends. Don't get me wrong: Alliance plays different than other Legends due to the duality. But the duality is simply not integral to the Vindicator. This would have been different if, for example, Vindicator would always have to pick Alliance. Or if they were encouraged to switch Legends more often and therefore benefit from the duality even more. But they don't. Meaning: to me Alliance is mostly flavor rather than the main feature or a new playstyle. Which one could argue is supported by the fact that most traits are dodge or Endurance focussed.

I think the part that is bold here is the important part ... Anet never SPECIFICALLY defined what changes to deliver differences in playstyles between especs. Whether that difference is a change to core mechanic or not, seems completely irrelevant. 

OP seems to have (arbitrarily) made a correlation between a playstyle difference needing a core mechanic change. It doesn't. 

 

Edited February 20, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Scoobaniec.9561]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

What EVER lead you to the conclusion that having a different playstyle requires F1 on Revenant to change?

Let me take a quick look

 

* Warrior - F1 burst skill. Damage/Effects based on 3 tiers

* Berserker - entering berserk mode and access to modified one stage bursts. Whole spec revolves about going berserker mode

* Spellbreaker - reduces burst skills to 1 stage, introduces full counter for a more defensive gameplay and also boon hate not seen before

* Bladesworm - removes burst skills and weapon swap in combat. In exchange F1 offer a new weapon bundle in other words a kit with it own skills.

 

Vindicator? F1 is the same as in core. 0 changes here. Run out of energy swap to another legend rinse repeat. No different from core, herald or renegade

 

In any of the above you dont have to pick up utility skills. Selecting traitline changes ur playstyle and mechanic

 

Alliance are again utility skills, No more no less. They do not modify F1 in any way

 

 

 

[Obtena.7952]

7 minutes ago, Scoobaniec.9561 said:

Let me take a quick look

 

* Warrior - F1 burst skill. Damage/Effects based on 3 tiers

* Berserker - entering berserk mode and access to modified one stage bursts. Whole spec revolves about going berserker mode

* Spellbreaker - reduces burst skills to 1 stage, introduces full counter for a more defensive gameplay and also boon hate not seen before

* Bladesworm - removes burst skills and weapon swap in combat. In exchange F1 offer a new weapon bundle in other words a kit with it own skills.

 

Vindicator? F1 is the same as in core. 0 changes here. Run out of energy swap to another legend rinse repeat. No different from core, herald or renegade

 

In any of the above you dont have to pick up utility skills. Selecting traitline changes ur playstyle and mechanic

 

Alliance are again utility skills, No more no less. They do not modify F1 in any way

 

 

 

That's nice, but what other classes do is irrelevant. That's not how Vindicator works so ... your complaint doesn't make sense. Again, the playstyle difference is there, even if you choose to not use or acknowledge it. Whether that difference exists from a core mechanic change or not is irrelevant. 

I understand you are complaining that there is no change to F1 on Vindicator ... but it certainly doesn't prevent it from having playstyle difference. In fact, F1 doesn't change on ANY of the Revenant especs, so I don't actually see that as a valid complaint. The changes to playstyle are always WITHIN the especs on Revenant, not the core mechanic. 

Edited February 20, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Scoobaniec.9561]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That's nice, but that's not how Revenant works so ... your complaint doesn't make sense. Again, the playstyle difference is there, even if you choose to not use or acknowledge it. Whether that difference exists from a core mechanic change or not is irrelevant. 

Im sorry but i believe you are the last person to tell me how revenant works or doesnt. If you think otherwise i can log with my rusty self and do a duel to prove it. And u can bet i was one hella monster during my active days who never lost to another rev including pros.

 

"Whether that difference exists from a core mechanic change or not is irrelevant"

 

Its like the most important factor. You basically admitted yourself that there is no change whatsoever in the very core mechanic of rev itself. What you trying to argue about again? L.

 

[Obtena.7952]

9 minutes ago, Scoobaniec.9561 said:

Im sorry but i believe you are the last person to tell me how revenant works or doesnt.

 

Your self-rewarded accolades don't make you the authority on how Revenant should work and also don't detract from what I'm telling you here. 

Again, the fact that F1 doesn't change has nothing to do with Vindicator feeling different to play; it does that WITHOUT F1 changing.

That complaint isn't even valid because F1 doesn't change for ANY of the especs on Revenant. F1 has ALWAYS JUST been the legend swap. Maybe your rusty self could use a refresher. 

Edited February 20, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Scoobaniec.9561]

8 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

 

That complaint isn't even valid because F1 doesn't change for ANY of the especs on Revenant. F1 has ALWAYS JUST been the legend swap. Maybe your rusty self could use a refresher. 

Which is exactly my point im making here. Its yet another espec with no real changes to it core mechanic. And its not like there cant be no changes. Xaylin.1860  suggestes some nice changes for example. So whats the deal here?

 

 

[Obtena.7952]

4 minutes ago, Scoobaniec.9561 said:

Which is exactly my point im making here. Its yet another espec with no real changes to it core mechanic. And its not like there cant be no changes. Xaylin.1860  suggestes some nice changes for example. So whats the deal here?

 

 

The deal here is simple: you are claiming there isn't a playstyle difference on Vindicator because there is no change to F1. That's not true. In fact, there are no changes to ANY of the F1 skills in Reveant or its especs ... and they all play different. 

Again, I get you don't like the Vindicator design but it can't be because of the reasoning you give because it's not true.  

Edited February 20, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Xaylin.1860]

33 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I think the part that is bold here is the important part ... Anet never SPECIFICALLY defined what changes to deliver differences in playstyles between especs. Whether that difference is a change to core mechanic or not, seems completely irrelevant. 

This is true. Just saying that the channeled Legend itself isn't really altering the gameplay. Nor is the switching within the Legend. It is mostly the dodge. 

 

I think we can agree on that, for example, dual Elements on Weaver being a more intricate alteration for an e-spec than just adding a fancy dodge like on Vindicator or Daredevil for that matter. This, of course, doesn't tell us anything about the impact on the game it will have or how much fun to play or to play against it is. Or what role it can fill. From a pure design perspective it is worse and less interesting. It is a fair oberservation to make that overall Revenant got A (not THE) shorter end of the stick here.

 

On the bright side, the lore part was usually above average for Revenant 😆

[Obtena.7952]

19 minutes ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

This is true. Just saying that the channeled Legend itself isn't really altering the gameplay. Nor is the switching within the Legend. It is mostly the dodge. 

 

I think we can agree on that, for example, dual Elements on Weaver being a more intricate alteration for an e-spec than just adding a fancy dodge like on Vindicator or Daredevil for that matter. This, of course, doesn't tell us anything about the impact on the game it will have or how much fun to play or to play against it is. Or what role it can fill. From a pure design perspective it is worse and less interesting. It is a fair oberservation to make that overall Revenant got A (not THE) shorter end of the stick here.

 

On the bright side, the lore part was usually above average for Revenant 😆

I mean, even on Elementalist ... changing elements isn't different between especs. It's the added layers that do that. In fact, I would argue we have a pretty even mix of some classes having core mechanic changes and some not for their especs. Revenant falls in the 'not core mechanic' change bucket. Maybe a deeper analysis will show the 'not core change' classes don't feel as different as the 'core change' ones ... but that's not really relevant if Anet still achieves the goal of giving people different experiences playing the different specs. 

Sure on paper, the 'look' of Vindicator isn't impressive as a playstyle change. That's not really saying much though; the key indicator of whether an espec delivers a playstyle change is to play it. 

Edited February 20, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Telgum.6071]

I see the Revenant subforum is still the same mountain of salt than always.

[Scoobaniec.9561]

26 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

The deal here is simple: you are claiming there isn't a playstyle difference on Vindicator because there is no change to F1. That's not true. In fact, there are no changes to ANY of the F1 skills in Reveant or its especs ... and they all play different. 

Again, I get you don't like the Vindicator design but it can't be because of the reasoning you give because it's not true.  

So whats the gameplay style change outside of dodge if u dont pick up alliance legend? You have yet to give an answer other than (oh the irony) dodge the question and say  "equip legend its ur choice if you dont" which means vindi plays the same way as core. And based on warrior example alone ive already proved how even without equipping utility/weapon you already change playstyle. And theres like no excuse. Reason why i even brought up warrior is due to the fact that they too have "energy bar" 

 

Utility skills are not something you should be forced into and the same goes for weapon. Those are optional choices which u might pick or not and as it stands alliance struggle to keep up with core legends in performance so unless someone want fancy dodge or loreplay with gs theres no reason to even equip the traitline especially with useless F3 that does nothing outside of alliance itself.

 

Gimmick flip in legend changes nothing and if it get released with those healing skills as they were i doubt anyone will even dare to touch the "duo of nobodies who were wiped off like insects by actual legend" in pvp unless they are masochist and want to forget about sustaining themself. The alliance skills also dont do anything special either, apart from the flip theres nothing unique about them, you have all of it in core legends

[Obtena.7952]

9 minutes ago, Scoobaniec.9561 said:

So whats the gameplay style change outside of dodge if u dont pick up alliance legend?

Again, you don't get to exclude or ignore the elements that change the gameplay style to claim the gameplay style doesn't change. You don't get to claim the changes don't exist just because you choose to not use them. That's absurd and you are going to get called out for that. I mean, your whole argument is that if we exclude or ignore everything that makes what you say untrue, then what you say is true ... what kind of nonsense is that?

Again, you are trying to argue that F1 doesn't change on Vindicator ... but F1 doesn't change for ANY Revenant Espec. Therefore your complaint that there isn't a gameplay change because F1 doesn't change is invalid. We don't need F1 to change to get a gameplay change. 

Edited February 20, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Scoobaniec.9561]

12 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Again, you don't get to exclude or ignore the elements that change the gameplay style to claim the gameplay style doesn't change. You don't get to claim the changes don't exist just because you choose to not use them. That's absurd and you are going to get called out for that. I mean, your whole argument is that if we exclude or ignore everything that makes what you say untrue, then what you say is true ... what kind of nonsense is that?

Again, you are trying to argue that F1 doesn't change on Vindicator ... but F1 doesn't change for ANY Revenant Espec. Therefore your complaint that there isn't a gameplay change because F1 doesn't change is invalid. We don't need F1 to change to get a gameplay change. 

And again u run in circles avoiding answering where the gameplay change is in case u dont pick up alliance? Energy system is profession mechanic along with the swap in F1. It is not altered by any means, it plays literally the same and not matter how hard u try you simply wont change what is true and easily proved. Besides i already mentioned the same about herald and renegade. The end. No point arguing futher with someone who either dont understand the question or troll on purpose to bait them into reportable posts. So unless u answer me the question i asked take the L and move on. Bye

[Obtena.7952]

25 minutes ago, Scoobaniec.9561 said:

And again u run in circles avoiding answering where the gameplay change is in case u dont pick up alliance? Energy system is profession mechanic along with the swap in F1. It is not altered by any means, it plays literally the same and not matter how hard u try you simply wont change what is true and easily proved.

I don't need to answer your questions to know that what you are saying is wrong and loaded with illogical arguments. It's not a problem that F1 is not altered by any means (because it's not necessary for F1 to change to get a gameplay difference). The especs DO play differently, EVEN though F1 is not altered by any means (because we have 2 especs on Revenant that do exactly that already, as well as other classes where the core mechanic doesn't change for their especs).

Just because you want to ignore those differences to complain you don't like Vindicator espec design doesn't mean those gameplay differences don't exist. It's true what you say though ... if you are going to say things that are wrong and use those things to complain, there isn't a reason to continuing to argue. Either address the things that are wrong with your claims ... or don't. 

Edited February 20, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Xaylin.1860]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I mean, even on Elementalist ... changing elements isn't different between especs. It's the added layers that do that. In fact, I would argue we have a pretty even mix of some classes having core mechanic changes and some not for their especs. Revenant falls in the 'not core mechanic' change bucket. Maybe a deeper analysis will show the 'not core change' classes don't feel as different as the 'core change' ones ... but that's not really relevant if Anet still achieves the goal of giving people different experiences playing the different specs. 

For Tempest and Catalyst, sure. Weaver, however, completely changes the way you switch through Attunements. Wether this is good or not is a totally different debate and I quite clearly remember the pure wrath and fury in the Elementalist subforum due to that switch up when PoF launched. Still, wishing for more significant alterations is a totally valid expectation to voice when looking at the spectrum of ANets work when it comes to e-specs. Even more so if none other e-spec for a specific class has brought such an alteration so far.

 

For clarifcation: I'm not talking "F1 has to change". While this could be the result of altering core mechanics, it doesn't have to be.

 

[Edit] Personal perception: Neither Herald nor Renegade altered how I play the class. They did offer new/other roles, sure. But that's not really the same as new playstyles if I - hyperbole - keep pressing the same buttons. That's more the "outcome" of specific builds.

Edited February 20, 2022 by Xaylin.1860

[Obtena.7952]

36 minutes ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

For Tempest and Catalyst, sure. Weaver, however, completely changes the way you switch through Attunements. Wether this is good or not is a totally different debate and I quite clearly remember the pure wrath and fury in the Elementalist subforum due to that switch up when PoF launched. Still, wishing for more significant alterations is a totally valid expectation to voice when looking at the spectrum of ANets work when it comes to e-specs. Even more so if none other e-spec for a specific class has brought such an alteration so far.

 

For clarifcation: I'm not talking "F1 has to change". While this could be the result of altering core mechanics, it doesn't have to be.

 

[Edit] Personal perception: Neither Herald nor Renegade altered how I play the class. They did offer new/other roles, sure. But that's not really the same as new playstyles if I - hyperbole - keep pressing the same buttons. That's more the "outcome" of specific builds.

This bold part is indicative of what I said earlier. The difference are there, it just depends how you play. Personally, how I play core, Herald and Renegade are ALL completely different, even if the F1 is JUST a legend swap. The problem with this thread is just the illogical reasoning being used to complain about Vindicator. There are ACTUAL things to complain about on this espec ... not having a difference in playstyle because F1 doesn't change is DEFINITELY not one of them. 

[Xaylin.1860]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

This bold part is indicative of what I said earlier. The difference are there, it just depends how you play. Personally, how I play core, Herald and Renegade are ALL completely different, even if the F1 is JUST a legend swap.

We do have different experiences when it comes to this aspect then. But that's expected to happen. However, based on this thread, at least some people seem to have differing experiences as well. I'd also like to point out, while this is a Vindicator thread, the OP also referred to the other Revenant e-specs.

 

Not adressing a topic precisely or concisely doesn't mean there isn't any issue or room for improvement.

 

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

The problem with this thread is just the illogical reasoning being used to complain about Vindicator. There are ACTUAL things to complain about on this espec ... not having a difference in playstyle because F1 doesn't change is DEFINITELY not one of them. 

Sure... but why not then focus on the reasonable thoughts or the ideas that can be build upon? F1 doesn't have to change to play differently, true. Imho, for Revenant F1 itself can hardly change due to how the class is build just as much as Attunements haven't changed or Shatters basically stayed the same. However, the associated effects and the Energy management could change. For example in ways I have outlined earlier.

[Obtena.7952]

3 hours ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

Sure... but why not then focus on the reasonable thoughts or the ideas that can be build upon? F1 doesn't have to change to play differently, true. Imho, for Revenant F1 itself can hardly change due to how the class is build just as much as Attunements haven't changed or Shatters basically stayed the same. However, the associated effects and the Energy management could change. For example in ways I have outlined earlier.

I don't get this part ... many of the associated effects and energy management of Vindicator actually do have a shift towards lower CD's and costs compared to other Rev skills. That's an indication to me Anet is also paying attention to that aspect of the spec to make it play differently as well. 

Sure, we can talk about specifics and to be fair, Anet has given us the opportunity to do that, provide relevant feedback and they have made changes to the especs that were relevant from the players that are inline with how they want the spec to work. So, the problem here isn't that Anet are not making changes to the class based on player feedback ... the problem here is that the OP just doesn't see (either by choice or ability) what those playstyle differences are that DO exist, seeming just to complain he doesn't like Vindicator.

 

Edited February 20, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Shao.7236]

13 hours ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

Not a Revenant excluve problem but the longer I think about it, you are right for all Revenant elites. It's just less apparent because they always get something added ontop. 

 

From a design point of view Rev probably is indeed closest to Elementalist although Tempest isn't too great when it comes to design. Catalyst theoretically is an improvement on Tempest imho (charging up similar to Warrior with Adrenaline) but so far, at least for me, it didn't get there. Energy is way to unimportant for its playstyle to matter.

 

When thinking of the Revenant core, the most obvious things to play into/alter are Energy management and Legend swapping. Of course, you'd could always add "forms" like Shroud or CA ontop but I think Rev is complicated enough. Following this train of thoughts:

 

Core should/would be the archetype and gain Energy passively and by swapping. Herald could be the one gaining increasingly more Energy for staying within a Legend (like Tempest) maybe losing the Energy from swap completely or just needing more time to ramp up than core. Kalla could lose all core Energy gain and have to rely on gaining it actively with the help of Kallas Fervor through different routes (Fury, interrupt, defense). Vindicator could have to rely on swapping and dodging for Energy gain, not regnerating it passively. This would significantly alter gameplay. However, it's also way harder to balance.

Those are great suggestions, this is the kind of stuff I am on the look out for and that Anet should pay attention to.

 

Perhaps not having the entire profession mechanic be affected but at least when using said elite legend have different energy mechanics since I can see the flow becoming a problem if we make it profession wide upon using the elite spec tree.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

The main difference I noticed is that Vindicator is by far the least dependent on Upkeep skills to be good, which vastly changes how energy is managed.

[draxynnic.3719]

20 hours ago, Scoobaniec.9561 said:

Let me take a quick look

 

* Warrior - F1 burst skill. Damage/Effects based on 3 tiers

* Berserker - entering berserk mode and access to modified one stage bursts. Whole spec revolves about going berserker mode

* Spellbreaker - reduces burst skills to 1 stage, introduces full counter for a more defensive gameplay and also boon hate not seen before

* Bladesworm - removes burst skills and weapon swap in combat. In exchange F1 offer a new weapon bundle in other words a kit with it own skills.

 

Vindicator? F1 is the same as in core. 0 changes here. Run out of energy swap to another legend rinse repeat. No different from core, herald or renegade

 

In any of the above you dont have to pick up utility skills. Selecting traitline changes ur playstyle and mechanic

 

Alliance are again utility skills, No more no less. They do not modify F1 in any way

 

 

 

Mirage has exactly the same F1-F4 skills that core mesmer has. If you don't take axe or mirage utilities, the primary difference is... you have a special dodge which has a special attack (which varies depending on your weapon) associated with it. And the axe and utilities... well, they're nice, but you can load up completely on mirage stuff rather than core mesmer stuff and it still wouldn't affect your playstyle as much as having a different legend does for revenant.

Daredevil has a pretty tokenistic change to F1 which, let's face it, pretty much exists just to have some form of "tradeoff". if you don't take staff or daredevil utilities, the primary difference is... you have a special dodge which has a special effect (which varies depending on your grandmaster trait) associated with it. And the staff and utilities... well, they're nice, but you can load up completely on daredevil stuff rather than core thief stuff and it still wouldn't affect your playstyle as much as having a different legend does for revenant.

Vindicator... okay, the F3 exists purely to make the Alliance stance work. Fine, if you're not using Alliance, it doesn't matter much. F2 changes from being an energy management tool on core to being a tool to convert energy into endurance. I'd say that's a bigger difference to the F-key skills than either of the examples above. Like the examples above, Vindicator has a special dodge with a special effect which varies depending on your grandmaster trait.

Past examples show that ArenaNet is inclined to think that changing how dodges work IS significant enough to be the main distinction for an elite specialisation. Vindicator adds an ambitious (mechanically, anyway... lorewise, the vassal states duo don't really earn the term "legendary") legend and a significant change to the F2 on top of that. Sure, if you run Shiro/Jalis and core weapons on a vindicator, it's not going to feel so much different from core rev... because you've chosen not to use most of what the elite specialisation offers. Mirage and, heck, even chrono don't really feel that much different to core mesmer if you don't use their weapons or utilities. Daredevil basically feels like thief with a funny dodge if you don't use staff or physical skills. Scrapper pretty much still feels just like engineer even if you DO use hammer and gyros, if we're being honest about it.  

I really don't see Vindicator as being completely lacking in bringing a new playstyle as you claim. Even if you DO stick to core weapons and legends, I've seen theoretical builds based around maximising endurance and dodges. That's something that only mirage and daredevil have done before, but the mechanics of vindicator dodges are such that they stand out as unique not just among revenant builds, but across the entire game.

You can dislike the playstyle it offers, but claiming it doesn't bring a new playstyle at all is demonstrably false.

[Puck.3697]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

You can dislike the playstyle it offers, but claiming it doesn't bring a new playstyle at all is demonstrably false

I think we can say it has something unique. But I think the topic is how impactful that is long term. 

We do not see quite the same level of change to vindicator as for example we see from spectre as a example here and I think that's a fair critique that some proffessions defintly got something far more unique then others. 

And every expansion will see winners and losers, but that doesn't mean everyone has to be precisely happy with that. 

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

13 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

Those are great suggestions, this is the kind of stuff I am on the look out for and that Anet should pay attention to.

 

Perhaps not having the entire profession mechanic be affected but at least when using said elite legend have different energy mechanics since I can see the flow becoming a problem if we make it profession wide upon using the elite spec tree.

Yep, he has the golden ticket in this thread imo 

[Clownmug.8357]

How does losing regular dodge and having access to a utility pool of up to 15 skills not alter playstyle?

[Nephalem.8921]

10 hours ago, Clownmug.8357 said:

How does losing regular dodge and having access to a utility pool of up to 15 skills not alter playstyle?

Its 5 more utilities than core and most of them are half as strong as skills from other legends. in pve it was so garbage that you used jalis instead. the hammers do more dmg than everything on that legend.

Yes solo dodge makes it borderline unplayable in some pve situations or at least very unforgiving. At least you were rewarded with power ren dps.

Edited February 22, 2022 by Nephalem.8921