An idea for nerfing core Shroud

[Shroud.2307]

I want to be very clear before I start saying anything, this isn't a complaint thread. I'm only making this suggestion because I see so many people asking for core Necro nerfs.

Maximum Life Force should be reduced based on a percentage of Health and Toughness. The more of each that you have, the less maximum Life Force you have.
If you're full glass, your maximum Life Force is unchanged. If you're full tank, you lose a bunch.

I feel this would be a much better option than reducing the baseline damage reduction of Shroud or increasing the degeneration speed as it lets glassy builds keep their full defenses and still provides necessary utility and cushion for tanky builds.

[Puck.3697]

eeeh, i think a large factor which goes against Core necro, is how quickly it can generate Shroud, while being fully ranged in gameplay, able to dish out a fair bit of Damage while continously jumping into a Shroud which doubles the hp u need to melt down with 50% DR to stack.

this means, core necro can Avoid or Minimize burst windows by simply being in shroud and it becoming wasted CDs to put against them. imho shroud needs some half nerfing, even if changes are needed to give them active defense via utilities to ensure it isnt a overnerf overall.

ontop of this.

due to t he fact so much of Necros sustain is implemented into shroud, it means That both scourge and more so harbinger suffer from the fact the modern designs of necro dont have shroud at all, and Harbingers a whole new level of glass... if u were to implement your idea it'd make harbingers role in SPVP redundent even if they do get it functional...giving core necro the ability to act like a harbinger With a shroud HP bar will make life very difficult to giving harbinger meaning.

imho, Ramp up needs to be slowed down + DR Reduced even if it requires a shift in some numbers to make Base necro stronger and Shroud generally weaker imho it needs to happen, no reasonable person is gonna advocate for Necros to get absolutely floored with nerfs. but at the same time, looking at new elites struggles without shroud and core and reaper keep retaining being absolutely Aids on the meta currently... makes it seem like a balance shift would be a really good result here.

[Salt Mode.3780]

Just nerf Death magic and the amount of protection boon that they are able to access and call it a day. Necros only became a powerhouse AFTER the extremely lazy Feb balance patch. Don't want to see another profession's core mechanic being nerfed because ANET doesn't play their game enough to balance anything.

Edited February 9, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Shroud.2307]

1 hour ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Just nerf Death magic and the amount of protection boon that they are able to access and call it a day. Necros only became a powerhouse AFTER the extremely lazy Feb balance patch. Don't want to see another profession's core mechanic being nerfed because ANET doesn't play their game enough to balance anything.

Yeah I mean, Death Magic getting nerfed would be a good start. Unholy Sanctuary, Beyond The Veil, Shrouded Removal, maybe make it a little harder to gain Carapace. 

The only reason I suggested what I did is because I get this terrible feeling ANet is going to do their usual heavy handed nerfing and it's going to really hurt build variety for core. I don't want to see core Shroud get some stupid increased degeneration speed or damage reduction removal because it'll hurt the more offensive builds more than the tanky ones.

[Asum.4960]

6 hours ago, Shroud.2307 said:

Maximum Life Force should be reduced based on a percentage of Health and Toughness. The more of each that you have, the less maximum Life Force you have.

You do realise though that Maximum Life Force scales directly off of maximum Health, right? That's the whole mechanic, the more Health you have the more LF you have. 

 

Additionally, this would just be minmaxed. There would be no point in investing into Toughness or Vitality if it actually reduces your effective HP. Once the math is done on the breaking point, it just becomes a counter intuitive, limiting, non-choice. Aka, bad design.

 

Core Necro (and Necro as a whole), unlike all other professions, doesn't have scaleable defenses. If Necro survivability is too high, the best way to balance it is by slightly increasing the damage of other specs in PvP again (emphasis on slightly) - which affects Necro drastically more than anything else (and unlike other professions, increased pressure both heavily nerfs Necro's survivability as well as damage). 

Make offensive options worthwhile so players aren't heavily incentivised to stack all the defensive options into one build, especially in a relatively low damage meta.

If LF gain is too high, slightly buff options competing with SR, or Soul Marks and Fear of Death in particular, but also Unholy Martyr. 

Fear of Death in Particular a) increases you damage through Terror, b) increases your effective HP through LF gain and c) increases your CC. When really, the choices for that Trait line should be Soul Barbs for damage, Vital Persistence for effective HP gain, and Fear of Death for CC, not one Trait doing it all and better. 

I think there are plenty of options before changing how Maximum Lifeforce works on a fundamental level mechanically, across all specialisations.

Edited February 9, 2022 by Asum.4960

[Dadnir.5038]

First, let's take into account that the core shroud is only a thing in competitive modes. Which mean that, as far as thing goes, there is no need to nerf it in PvE (be it open world, dungeon, fractal, raid or even strike).

The second point to take into account is the reason behind the fact that it's seen as imbalanced in competitive modes: damages have been nerfed by 30% but not the shroud defensif aspect.

Small scale: The best solution would be to simply reduce the LF pool capacity by 1/3rd as keeping LF gen is necessary to the dynamic of the main mechanism.

Large scale: Reducing the LF pool capacity can have a positive impact but the real issue in this gamemode is, and have always been, the LF gain on death. Sooner or later, the devs will have to resign themself that there is a need to put some limits to this mechanism (something that they eventually did in GW1).

 

7 hours ago, Shroud.2307 said:

If you're full glass, your maximum Life Force is unchanged. If you're full tank, you lose a bunch.

What kind of logic is this? Why would you keep defense on glassy builds and reduce defense on tanky builds? You build tanky to gain survivability not to lose it... What you're suggesting is like saying "boon duration and self heal should be reduced by 5% for every 100 point of toughness and vitality you got, keep offensive option as they are, thought, it's fine!"

[Junkpile.7439]

Well nerf scourge and reaper first. Core necro is just scrub stompper. Average or better player never lose to core necro because they understand that you can interupt all skills.

Edited February 10, 2022 by Junkpile.7439

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

The issue is only relative to competitive play. It can be very tanky even on full glass stats with the right traits. Part of this is the high damage reduction from shroud. Feb2020 saw most peoples sustain decreased, but Shroud was relatively untouched.

For competitive only for this current meta I think that the shroud damage reduction should be reduced from 50% to 33%. I think  that would be enough without having to touch any of the traits to keep it in check.

Again, I really only think this is appropriate due to the current unfinished balance from Feb2020. If sustain is brought up on other classes, or damage is increased, then this should be reverted.

Edited February 10, 2022 by Lan Deathrider.5910
Clarity

[Dadnir.5038]

5 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

the current unfinished balance from Feb2020.

When something have been in a certain state for 2 years, it's no longer "unfinished", it's a feature.

[The Boz.2038]

6 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

For competitive only for this current meta I think that the shroud damage reduction should be reduced from 50% to 33%. I think  that would be enough without having to touch any of the traits to keep it in check.

Can anyone try and explain why shroud damage reduction and shroud health reduction exist? Why the added complexity behind this? I've struggled with the question for years, and I have no answer.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

3 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Can anyone try and explain why shroud damage reduction and shroud health reduction exist? Why the added complexity behind this? I've struggled with the question for years, and I have no answer.

I know right? It is already another health bar to protect your health, why the damage reduction at all on top of it? Its probably the single most potent form of defense in the whole game outside of blur or full invulnerabilities.

[The Boz.2038]

3 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I know right? It is already another health bar to protect your health, why the damage reduction at all on top of it? Its probably the single most potent form of defense in the whole game outside of blur or full invulnerabilities.

Yeah, but, see, it's *smaller* than your healthbar! So why the complication?
Death Shroud: 50% all damage reduction, 3% upkeep per second (4 in PvP). 
Reaper Shroud: 50% strike damage reduction, 5% upkeep per second. 
Life Force: Default 69% (giggity) health. 83% with Soul Reaping's Soul Battery.

Shroud could easily be changed to = Health (and Soul Battery turned into a flat Vitality gain), and the damage reduction just flat out removed. It'd be a hefty nerf, in the end, mathematically, but at least opponents with on-damage-dealt effects would no longer be screwed over by a 50% damage reduction just for fun. If you want to compensate for the nerf, make necro health healable in shroud, so incoming healing in shroud doesn't fizzle out into the wind.

[Obtena.7952]

Someone explain to me why we are discussing pre-nerfing core shroud? Because people ask for it? Why is that relevant?

Edited February 10, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[KrHome.1920]

Remove the damage reduction of shroud and match the life force the health pool (1:1 ratio).

Fix shroud degeneration of core and reaper shroud to 3% across all game modes. 

Rework Dark Path to a ground targeted teleport.

Reduce the cast time of Wurm to 1 second.

Buff spectral armor and walk to 40 seconds cooldown.

Revert the LF generation of Signet of Undeath to 4% in PvP again.

... and the class is fixed, a lot more fun to play and to play against.

[Morde.3158]

lol its always non necro mains talking the most about necro they have no idea to play the class well and have no idea of the change log history to necro.

Edited February 10, 2022 by Morde.3158

[KrHome.1920]

1 hour ago, Morde.3158 said:

lol its always non necro mains talking the most about necro they have no idea to play the class well and have no idea of the change log history to necro.

That's a remarkable amount of non-constructive nonsense in one post.

[Dadnir.5038]

6 hours ago, KrHome.1920 said:

That's a remarkable amount of non-constructive nonsense in one post.

Yet if you remove the "non necro main" nonsense it's true.

The necromancer is designed around a thematic that's been made pretty rigid and only reached his current state because it had glaring holes in it's design that the devs tried to cover by using quantity (more of the same things) instead of trying a qualitative change that could have gone against what they see as the core design (I mean, they could remove the "2nd health bar" and change spectral armor into a 3s immunity on a prohibitive CD + a random sustain skill on each shroud set and everybody would have been happy, but they don't because the necromancer as a whole is a lot more complicated than "that").

For example, In the current game, due to how much LF scourge's profession's skills cost for whatever effect they do, it's better to have the LF pool at it's current capacity or at a lower capacity than at a 1-1 capacity with no core/reaper shroud damage reduction. Nearly doubling the cost of all scourge's skills would look like wasting life force for puny effects (It would feel weird to use 4k LF for 2.5k barrier, whereas it feel right to use 2.5k LF for 2.5k barrier).

Another example is that damage reduction, beyond the 2nd health bar, in core and reaper shroud support the idea that the character is no longer amongst the "living" but in a "spectral form". It also feel more "thematic" that the necromancer can hold less life force than it's total health pool... etc.

Players look at what benefit them most (yes, there is nothing that's more biased than a player), the devs build and balance the professions on a thematic foundation.

[The Boz.2038]

Scourge shroud skill costs are % of base calculation LF.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

10 hours ago, KrHome.1920 said:

That's a remarkable amount of non-constructive nonsense in one post.

Some people can't fathom that other players play multiple classes.

The problems with necro are entirely due to the Feb2020 balance reducing damage almost across the board, but leaving necros with a second health bar that comes with 50% damage reduction. Several people pointed out that this would happen when they released the prepatch notes, and it is still true to this day.

[KrHome.1920]

23 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

The problems with necro are entirely due to the Feb2020 balance reducing damage almost across the board, but leaving necros with a second health bar that comes with 50% damage reduction. Several people pointed out that this would happen when they released the prepatch notes, and it is still true to this day.

And these people didn't read the patch notes - ANet nerfed a lot of shroud related sustain in this path. The synergy of death magic with core necro is more an issue than the damage reduction. The spec is basically immune to conditions (not just damage but also debuffs!) in its popular builds and spams self protection. Scourge has similar issues with feed from corruption. 

Additionally a simple life force degeneration nerf would fix any sustain issues in a more efficient way (from an economical perspective (= time effort)) than having to rework the whole necro class as a result of removing the damage reduction. But ANet insists on that 4% degen for core for a while now. They seem to be fine with the general sustain as they could have further nerfed it to 5 or even 6% a long time ago.

What I wrote in one of my posts above was an alternative how you could rework necro, when you insist on that damage reduction removal. Core would need a mobility skill in shroud as a compensation. Since core necro is a sitting duck currently, which drastically limits its skill cap, I would like such a rework.

Quote

Some people can't fathom that other players play multiple classes.

I agree with that part. That nonsense talking about "mains" is stupid for a game that is out for 9 years. Most people play more than one class or have at least tried it.

Edited February 12, 2022 by KrHome.1920

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

L2P issues turned into a balance thread..

PvE core has worst dps output of all professions and specs. Only stands to reason that in return he's the best tank, since he's certainly not a top tier support.

PvP core necro is balanced, just bad players whining. A good players knows that:

1. Core hates fighting up close. Anything with strong melee cleave will kill it in seconds if given opportunity.
2. Fear is their primary defense from getting jumped. Resistance, stab or insta condi cleanse and things turn real ugly for core necro.
3. Necros in general, and especially core are crap at rotating. The bigger the map the worse it gets. You can win vs a necro without fighting it at all, if you rotate on a mobile profession with stealth (mesmer, thief, druid, scrapper)
4. Power core is squishy - he won't endure much pressure.
5. Staff is weak. Scepter needs time to build up damage, while enemies have cleanses. Life blast is standard projectile - blocked and reflected by all any projectile hate.

WvW - longbow ranger and Deadeye fodder...

People are just lazy and stick to meta builds instead of turning their brain on for a second. Like all the "Lich op" etc talk.
One good projectile reflect (like mesmer feedback) and suddenly lich become useless if not straight up inting...

 

Edited February 12, 2022 by ZeftheWicked.3076

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

23 minutes ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

WvW - longbow ranger and Deadeye fodder...


 

I kill too many LB rangers with my Reaper for that to be true.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

3 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I kill too many LB rangers with my Reaper for that to be true.

Not my fault they're garbage. Any ranger worth their salt knows how to kite and how to escape if caught. But it's true in WvW there's a crazy variety of skill levels from ranger gods to guys that are lucky there's no command for their pet biting them in their own rear end.

[Morde.3158]

On 2/11/2022 at 7:24 AM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Some people can't fathom that other players play multiple classes.

Yeah but I do play other classes I just play necro the most. 

[Morde.3158]

10 minutes ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

Not my fault they're garbage. Any ranger worth their salt knows how to kite and how to escape if caught. But it's true in WvW there's a crazy variety of skill levels from ranger gods to guys that are lucky there's no command for their pet biting them in their own rear end.

Only good Ranger can beat Reaper and what I mean by ranger is I mean Soul Beast with sickem and stealth, gs for blocks etc the other forms of ranger that stand a chance agaisnt necro is wilderness builds perma prot you know full sustain stuff.