Condi should not equal power burst damage

[Zyreva.1078]

30 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

You need to differentiate between average players and bad players. They are not the same group.

Balancing around bad players obviously is bad. But the are a minority, just like the top end.

Average players however, are the majority that is supposed to bring the most engagement with the mode. Yet they suffer the most under the current absence of balance and thus are leaving in droves.

 

The average skill level is pretty low. It is also not true that average players suffer the most from bad game balance. The higher the skill level the more relevant balance becomes (and therefore also balance issues). At lower skill level pretty much anything works.

[Ragnar.4257]

29 minutes ago, grx.8714 said:

No, average silver/gold players complain of ft scrappers, core necros, trapper dhs and we have all the reasons to balance or gut to the ground those classes. Never seen anyone complaining of core ele or berserker in the current meta, so your point is completely nonsense.

 

A lot of top players are abusing to the max level ft scrapper so they hope for anet to make a move and destroy it from pvp like it deserve.

 

And statements like "omg ft scrapper die so easily if fo used omg l2p issue" are useless. 

That is true for a communicating team and not for a random pug. Also it is a stupid 1 button build 1 kittening button that has the highest cleave/damage output superior even to a sic em soulbeast, how stupid is that? 

Hmmmmm, and this build, is it power or condi?? Power you say? Then according to the wisdom of this thread, it should be buffed, right?

Regardless, the reason FT Scrapper should be removed is not because it's OP. It's because it's way too one-dimensional, just holding down 1 button.

If the argument was that condis are too uninteractive and one-dimensional, then sure, but the argument here is that they are too strong. They are not.

Edited February 10, 2022 by Ragnar.4257

[Curennos.9307]

4 hours ago, Eddbopkins.2630 said:

We're both getting off topic to the op post. Condi should not equal power burst damage and it does. I think there should be a damage condi cap where you can't have more then 5 stacks of any given damage condi. That would mitigate the condi burst of 10+stack of burn doing 5k ticks for 5+seconds. So if you want to do big condi damage you have to have the skill to land bleed or burn or torment or confusion all together stacking multiple condis to get the kill instead of o let's me spam thing pulsing aoe Condi damage skill and spam 1 1 1 while I run around you with swiftness and speed runes.

We not off topic, I'm telling you how skills work. It's not off topic when I take time to explain why your basic premise is wrong. Speaking of...

 

Condi should not equal power burst damage and it **doesn't**. What you're fighting are borderline DPS builds that have some pvp application, basically. Burst isn't 5+ seconds. Burst isn't even 3-4 seconds. Unless you're trying to redefine what you mean by 'burst' - which, I suppose ,would be fine, and in which case tell me what you mean by burst and we can have a decent conversation - you're incorrect.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/170805715013730304/941451587690299432/unknown.png

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/170805715013730304/941451717977993277/unknown.png

 

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/170805715013730304/941454453620473917/unknown.png

 

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/170805715013730304/941456116632666132/unknown.png

 

And here's an imgur album https://imgur.com/a/fHE7Bui if GW2 forums hate discord.

 

It took...how many casts and ticks to work up to a 'burst' of damage that my sword/dagger core thief does with two skills (which was a bit on the low side, btw - no Lead Attacks stacks. Of course, both skills crit - as they often do - because I have 80% crit chance. Anywhere from 4 to almost 6k can happen, depending on traits, build, etc. Core sword/dagger isn't known for it's amazing burst and damage modifiers).

 

I also tested a 'just smash on the target dummy for about ten seconds', and the health bars in there are how alive the golem was at the end. As expected, the burn guard was noticeably ahead - because of course it is, it has multiple damage stacking skills and is a condi build with a rampup, while on my thief I just used steal, used C/K to get the vuln and reveal power bonus, then spammed flanking/larc strike.

 

Spending 8+ seconds casting every single weapon and damaging utility skill I have is not burst. It's a DPS rotation. If you stand still in a DPS rotation you will die and that is perfectly fine.

There are ways to graph out damage spikes. You can use these and actually see what is happening and what the damage spikes look like...You can do this, I mean. Unless someone wants to pay me gold, but eh >.>

 

Condi does not burst. The only applicable use of 'condi burst' is a 'burst' of conditions in the sense that someone has applied a large quantity or stacks of conditions to a target. The damage burst of a load of conditions does not compare to how much burst damage basically all power builds can put out.

Edited February 10, 2022 by Curennos.9307

[Lucentfir.7430]

People would probably have a different tune to this discussion if they added back Mercenary Amulet or added trailblaizer as a choice. Lets also not forget Conditions ignore toughness, and there's not an abundance of resolution like there is protection. tbh it makes me wonder why they don't have a condition duration or condition damage reduction stat yet.

[Eddbopkins.2630]

14 minutes ago, Curennos.9307 said:

We not off topic, I'm telling you how skills work. It's not off topic when I take time to explain why your basic premise is wrong. Speaking of...

 

Condi should not equal power burst damage and it **doesn't**. What you're fighting are borderline DPS builds that have some pvp application, basically. Burst isn't 5+ seconds. Burst isn't even 3-4 seconds. Unless you're trying to redefine what you mean by 'burst' - which, I suppose ,would be fine, and in which case tell me what you mean by burst and we can have a decent conversation - you're incorrect.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/170805715013730304/941451587690299432/unknown.png

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/170805715013730304/941451717977993277/unknown.png

 

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/170805715013730304/941454453620473917/unknown.png

 

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/170805715013730304/941456116632666132/unknown.png

 

And here's an imgur album https://imgur.com/a/fHE7Bui if GW2 forums hate discord.

 

It took...how many casts and ticks to work up to a 'burst' of damage that my sword/dagger core thief does with two skills (which was a bit on the low side, btw - no Lead Attacks stacks. Of course, both skills crit - as they often do - because I have 80% crit chance. Anywhere from 4 to almost 6k can happen, depending on traits, build, etc. Core sword/dagger isn't known for it's amazing burst and damage modifiers).

 

I also tested a 'just smash on the target dummy for about ten seconds', and the health bars in there are how alive the golem was at the end. As expected, the burn guard was noticeably ahead - because of course it is, it has multiple damage stacking skills and is a condi build with a rampup, while on my thief I just used steal, used C/K to get the vuln and reveal power bonus, then spammed flanking/larc strike.

 

Spending 8+ seconds casting every single weapon and damaging utility skill I have is not burst. It's a DPS rotation. If you stand still in a DPS rotation you will die and that is perfectly fine.

There are ways to graph out damage spikes. You can use these and actually see what is happening and what the damage spikes look like...You can do this, I mean. Unless someone wants to pay me gold, but eh >.>

 

Condi does not burst. The only applicable use of 'condi burst' is a 'burst' of conditions in the sense that someone has applied a large quantity or stacks of conditions to a target. The damage burst of a load of conditions does not compare to how much burst damage basically all power builds can put out.

You cant convince me that 3-4 ticks of condi damage from 3.4k to 6.5k in a matter of 3-5seconds isn't a burst. And if that is confusion it has no icd so it with hurt you as fast as your apm is. 

[Curennos.9307]

7 minutes ago, Lucentfir.7430 said:

People would probably have a different tune to this discussion if they added back Mercenary Amulet or added trailblaizer as a choice. Lets also not forget Conditions ignore toughness, and there's not an abundance of resolution like there is protection. tbh it makes me wonder why they don't have a condition duration or condition damage reduction stat yet.

Aren't there armor sigils that reduce condi duration by like, 20% or so? IIRC they're not terribly worth using though. Would be interesting to have expertise reintroduced, then have those buffed a bit. And I agree that resolution needs more presence - anet basically just swapped out retal for it and hasn't gotten around to providing more sources for it. 

 

To be fair to condi, weapon swap sigils already exist and are pretty potent if used correctly. Resolution isn't as abundant as protection, and condi dmg/duration sources overall aren't as abundant as power ones (tho some classes do have that option, iirc, to make prot also reduce condi dmg), but you also can't get hit by a power skill and then sacrifice a few cleanses to negate all the damage except for a few ticks.

[Curennos.9307]

8 minutes ago, Eddbopkins.2630 said:

You cant convince me that 3-4 ticks of condi damage from 3.4k to 6.5k in a matter of 3-5seconds isn't a burst. And if that is confusion it has no icd so it with hurt you as fast as your apm is. 

Confusion's ICD is built into how fast you act. GW2 is not an apm game, this isn't a 2d platform fighter. There's a hard - and rather low, relatively speaking - limit on how fast you can do things. Confusion can also be negated by just stopping, torment by moving. Of course, you can be CC'd into not moving, and not casting skills is not always an option, but it's there and relevant.

 

Maybe I could convince you if you had a solid definition of what burst is. The most commonly used definition is 'how much damage one can conceivably cram into a small a time interval as possible in such a way that the opponent cannot reactively mitigate it given the assortment of tools at their disposal', which is why there's a distinction made between PvP burst and sustained damage.

 

It isn't a burst because your opponent has plenty of time to react to it given general circumstances (meaning that someone's keyboard breaking - and thus being unable to react - does not mean any damage afterward is technically 'burst').

 

It's also not a problem - semantics aside - because it's not the game's fault if someone stands there for a solid 3-5 seconds doing literally nothing. You're free to define 'burst' however you like, but you're not free to baselessly claim it's an issue (I mean. Okay, you are, but someone will call you on it).

Edited February 10, 2022 by Curennos.9307

[Ragnar.4257]

7 minutes ago, Eddbopkins.2630 said:

You cant convince me that 3-4 ticks of condi damage from 3.4k to 6.5k in a matter of 3-5seconds isn't a burst. And if that is confusion it has no icd so it with hurt you as fast as your apm is. 

What you're looking at is the absolute #1 full-glass damage condi build.

How do you think the #1 full-glass damage power build would compare? 

Hint: It would be doing aloooooooot more.

[Downstate.4697]

The real problem is the sheer amount of condis that can be applied in a short window. I think its time for things like weakness , blind and vulnerability be seperated into its own category so cleanses always effect damaging conditions. Scale up access to resistance and decrease blind durations to 1-2s. Naturally they also arent effected by expertise.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

I think it should kind of follow the same rules as power damage does with CC.

If your move is quick, easy to cast or puts out debilitating condis like cripple or immob, it should do less condi damage/short condi duration.

If your move is high telegraph, hard to cast or is primarily for damage dealing i.e prime light beam, it should do omega condi damage if it lands.

The cds for the latter should be adjusted accordingly and on a case by case basis, since:
 

* cleanses do counter them

*their damage ends up being stickier than power.

*Condi amulets often come paired with high tank stats.

I'd like condi builds to do significant damage, but they have to be balanced in a way that honors the three above facts. It's not easy but it might be doable. 

Edited February 11, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[coro.3176]

1 hour ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

*their damage ends up being stickier than power.

This is an illusion caused by conditions requiring time to tick out vs power damage being instant.

1 hour ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

*Condi amulets often come paired with high tank stats.

Necessary because condi builds need to survive longer than power to get kills - sometimes 4 or 5 cooldown cycles depending on opponent's cleanse.

1 hour ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

If your move is high telegraph, hard to cast or is primarily for damage dealing i.e prime light beam, it should do omega condi damage if it lands.

The cds for the latter should be adjusted accordingly and on a case by case basis, since:

Out of curiosity, what should the cooldown be on say .. Blowtorch (2 stacks of burn in PvP, 15s cooldown) . 'cause this is an extremely bad skill in current pvp. It gets cleansed instantly and then you've just wasted a weapon skill cooldown for nothing.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

51 minutes ago, coro.3176 said:

This is an illusion caused by conditions requiring time to tick out vs power damage being instant.

In some cases, I can see where you're coming from, but in many instances it is indeed sticky. Context of the condi application matters. See below.

Quote

Necessary because condi builds need to survive longer than power to get kills - sometimes 4 or 5 cooldown cycles depending on opponent's cleanse.

I agree with this at surface level, but there have been several condition builds in the past that couple this with several mitigative additions like range, ease of application, periods of invulnerability or stealth that turns their build intent from attrition to overpowered (Like old condi mirage, old condi engie, old burnguard, etc). That tankiness needs to be accounted for when it comes to certain builds. Not as a general rule, mind you, but still.

I'd understand tankiness on a mallyx rev, since all of its condi damage is centered around itself (That needs to get fixed by the way, the torment change sucked for rev.). For something like a condi mirage or condi ranger or thief that can harass you from afar, you need to be more careful.

Also keep in mind this is not always the case. Viper was top pick as an amulet before it got removed. Not every condi build needs to be tanky. Only some of them do. Some of them used to be able to load you with condis then leave, then come back if you cleansed them. In some cases this iteration was stickier than direct damage; you would likely be able to regen faster vs a direct damage class that took that approach vs a condi oriented class, which could prevent you from oocing or didn't need to constantly pressure you to persist damage. 

Quote

Out of curiosity, what should the cooldown be on say .. Blowtorch (2 stacks of burn in PvP, 15s cooldown) . 'cause this is an extremely bad skill in current pvp. It gets cleansed instantly and then you've just wasted a weapon skill cooldown for nothing.

12 seconds. I would probably unsplit this from pve and use the pve version, since it means not taking shield and it has a short range requirement. I'd consider this hard to land given the nature of engie. 

Quote

wasted a weapon skill cooldown for nothing.

If this still turns out to be the case on a -hit- then perhaps the base damage should also be looked at. Again, not taking shield, rewarding close combat on a class that prefers range. 

As long as it doesn't create any holo or scrapper monsters. I'm fine with downing to unmanaged burn or confusion or whatever as long as that condi win was due to smart play, and not due to someone weaving in and out of 1200 range, pressing 1 and occasionally 3 and F2 until I ran out of cleanse buttons while also being tanky/having a bunch of escape buttons if the gap got closed/being able to chase if I decided to leave. 

 

Edited February 11, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Zekent.3652]

We all agree that condi bomb is annoying, unfun to deal against, and easier than power builds, but man, condis are not that strong, just stop being greedy on your builds and run more cleanses.

[Sahne.6950]

22 hours ago, Eddbopkins.2630 said:

I find condi very unfair to use in a competitive. You can dodge power hits all day long but you cant dodge a condi tick.

AHH your right! i forgot that you cant dodge condiskills! *sarcasm*

Edited February 11, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Sahne.6950]

16 hours ago, Eddbopkins.2630 said:

We're both getting off topic to the op post. Condi should not equal power burst damage and it does. I think there should be a damage condi cap where you can't have more then 5 stacks of any given damage condi. That would mitigate the condi burst of 10+stack of burn doing 5k ticks for 5+seconds. So if you want to do big condi damage you have to have the skill to land bleed or burn or torment or confusion all together stacking multiple condis to get the kill instead of o let's me spam thing pulsing aoe Condi damage skill and spam 1 1 1 while I run around you with swiftness and speed runes.

ahh yes and condibuilds that only apply burn are now straight up useless?  so many things that you are saying are sooo far from reality... its absurd xD

Condis can not burst like power does! At a certain point you can possibly go down in 2 conditicks that is right, but what you guys are not noticing is that you were being stacked with these condis for 4 seconds already and that you didnt react to it.... you are just looking at your hp in shock and see that you died in 2 ticks from there....  Condiskill also have to hit like powerskills,aka. dodging actually works folks! the only difference really is that Condidamage ignores Toughness but can be cleansed, while power does instant damage but gets mitigated by toughness.

A condi Pistolthief can stack someone completly full: potential 15k damage but you dont receive any because you simply swapped weapons and sigil of cleansing cleaned all of it.

Now imagine the same with a power Pistolthief!  If you are really so stupid to eat his full combo like you did with the condithief you are just straight up dead..... 

You should have dodged the thief in both scenarios! the main difference is, that even after getting hit by all of it, you can nullify the condi damage by a single cleanse.

What you guys might be experiencing is, that condi builds tend to be more tanky while potentially delivering the same damage. But that is only if you have no cleanses.

Also i think everyone here ignores that in spvp even the condibuilds do a significant ammount of power damage... so only 70% or even less is actual condidamage. On condithief for example about 35% of you damage is power; a "3" combo hits for like 2.5k power damage and 4.5k condi (<- only when not cleansing it!!!!)... yet you are just complaining about the condipart, completly ignoring the reality.... most of the builds in PvP do some power damage aswell, infact the BURST in the beginning that you are noticing is most likely the power part, because condis take some time for the first tick to happen...

Edited February 11, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Crozame.4098]

35 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

ahh yes and condibuilds that only apply burn are now straight up useless?  You guys are just straight up mad about condis and dont even see the reality anymore....  

Condis can not burst like power does! At a certain point you can possibly go down in 2 conditicks that is right, but what you guys are not noticing is that you were being stacked with these condis for 4 seconds already and that you didnt react to it.... you are just looking at your hp in shock and see that you died in 2 ticks from there....  Condiskill also have to hit like powerskills,aka. dodging actually works folks! the only difference really is that Condidamage ignores Toughness but can be cleansed, while power does instant damage.

A condi Pistolthief can stack someone completly full: potential 15k damage but you dont receive any because you simply swapped weapons and sigil of cleansing cleaned all of it.

Now imagine the same with a power Pistolthief!  If you are really so stupid to eat his full combo like you did with the condithief you are just straight up dead..... 

You should have dodged the thief in both scenarios! the main difference is, that even after getting hit by all of it, you can nullify the condi damage by a single cleanse.

What you guys might be experiencing is, that condi builds tend to be more tanky while potentially delivering the same damage. But that is only if you have no cleanses.

Also i think everyone here ignores that in spvp even the condibuilds do a significant ammount of power damage... so only 70% or even less. On condithief for example about 35% of you damage is power; a "3" combo hits for like 2.5k power damage and 4.5k condi (<- only when not cleansing it!!!!)... yet you are just complaining about the condipart, completly ignoring the reality.... most of the builds in PvP do some power damage aswell, infact the BURST in the beginning that you are noticing is most likely the power part, because condis take some time for the first tick to happen...

 

Burn guard and mirage . Condi thief, hitting a steal and pistol 3 and 1, in 1-2 seconds. can stack  a ton in 1 second. Not 4.. At 4 already dead.

Edited February 11, 2022 by Crozame.4098

[The Boz.2038]

2 minutes ago, Crozame.4098 said:

 

Burn guard and mirage . Condi thief, hitting a steal and pistol 3 and 1, in 1-2 seconds. can stack  a ton in 1 second. Not 4.. At 4 already dead.

A power build that takes four seconds to kill you is just *bad*.

How the hell is this an argument?

[Sahne.6950]

2 minutes ago, Crozame.4098 said:

 

Burn guard and mirage . Condi thief, hitting a steal and pistol 3 and 1, in 1-2 seconds. can stack  a ton in 1 second. Not 4.. At 4 already dead.

they apply 2 condis. almost any cleanse and you received no damage at all....  You guys are arguing like condiskills are undodgable and there is no cleanse in the game at all..

[Crozame.4098]

Just now, Sahne.6950 said:

they apply 2 condis. almost any cleanse and you received no damage at all....  You guys are arguing like condiskills are undodgable and there is no cleanse in the game at all..

2? Maybe its true for burn guard. But for thief and mesmer??...

 

Also, you were talking about speed of application, and we address the speed, you turn into the number of condis~~ nice dodge.

 

[Sahne.6950]

4 minutes ago, Crozame.4098 said:

2? Maybe its true for burn guard. But for thief and mesmer??...

 

Also, you were talking about speed of application, and we address the speed, you turn into the number of condis~~ nice dodge.

 

thief has bleed and poison...

speed of application doesnt matter!  infact a fast application is easier to be on the receiving end! Tank all of it and cleanse after the skil...   While a skill that would apply over 5 seconds is hard to cleanse.. either you cleanse halfway thru leaving half the condis still on you, or you have to tank it for 5 seconds...
What really is annoying is a slow and constant application... a fast application is a free cleanse of all the damage you just got.

Edited February 11, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Crozame.4098]

2 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

A power build that takes four seconds to kill you is just *bad*.

How the hell is this an argument?

I was replying to the point "At a certain point you can possibly go down in 2 conditicks that is right, but what you guys are not noticing is that you were being stacked with these condis for 4 seconds already and that you didnt react to it..."

 

So its a counter argument. 

[Sahne.6950]

1 minute ago, Crozame.4098 said:

I was replying to the point "At a certain point you can possibly go down in 2 conditicks that is right, but what you guys are not noticing is that you were being stacked with these condis for 4 seconds already and that you didnt react to it..."

 

So its a counter argument. 

i repeat myself.. some of you are FAAAR from reality and are arguing out of a angerstandpoint and it shows.  your arguments are stupid or straight up wrong...

[Crozame.4098]

1 minute ago, Sahne.6950 said:

thief has bleed and poison...

 

You are talking about the "proper" core condi thief right? Then the pistol 3 gives torment. And have cover conditions such as vul, cripple, blind and weakness?

[Crozame.4098]

3 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

i repeat myself.. some of you are FAAAR from reality and are arguing out of a angerstandpoint and it shows.  your arguments are stupid or straight up wrong...

The very fact you think thief has only poison and bleed, shows maybe you are the kitten~

[Sahne.6950]

1 hour ago, Crozame.4098 said:

The very fact you think thief has only poison and bleed, shows maybe you are the kitten~

...urgh buddy.....  you have vuln and cripple right and even 1 second of root... BUT!! you always cleanse the condtions that were applied last... when doing a steal 1 - 3-3-3 combo... which are the condis that you repeatedly apply over and over again...? and which is the one that you apply with steal and the first hit of 3, aka in the beginning....  Torment ticks for ~150 damage per second and is just doodoo....   the bleed and poison is what hurts but it is also what is being cleansed first! if you end your combo with a 2 or 4 skill to cover them yes oke! it becomes harder to cleanse. but a nromal burst can be cleansed almost immedieatly after the last 3 hit and it will always cleanse bleed and poison aka all the damage...

Thief used to have alot more even confu with steal! you could use steal to cover your burst that was pretty broken imo. but they changed that a while ago and made it so that teef is nowhere near as overwhelming as it used to be. they made it so that 2cleanses=clean

A very good player will apply covercondis. But even the best player cant do anything when you cleanse in the second the last hit of 3 hits you....   And at that point you just let a teef hit you for 3 seconds straight without dodging/blocking anything...  and at that point you would be dead against a power build for sure. But against the condibuild you can just cleanse after the first tick and youll be AOkAY!

dont want to be mean but alot of condiproblems are a git gud problem.... If you know what you are facing and have a general idea which skills to cleanse and which skills to just sitout... condis are not a problem in Gw2!

There is some problematics in condis no denying that... but the way some guys are arguing here...   "YOU CANT DODGE A CONDITICK" is just..... its not even funny anymore xD its SADGE

Edited February 11, 2022 by Sahne.6950