Love the new elite specialisations

[Mell.4873]

I read alot of threads of saying people won't play the new elite specialisation because in terms of numbers the old ones are better. 

I would say what do you expect, the power creap would be too real if they where to up the numbers. I mean nothing will beat chronomancer 3 clone shatter on a golem but give virtuoso shatter a raid boss or aoe fight and they do more damage.

Same thing with untamed, I mean people wanted a no pet class but that is literally soulbeast where there is no point in using the pet since command skills become OP when merged. Untamed provides a stronger pet where you can avoid the messy AI by teleporting the pet into battle.

 

Edit: Not to bad of a response all things considering. 

 

Edited February 20, 2022 by Mell.4873

[otto.5684]

I am sure the new elites will be fun. However, my initial impression is that the developer was hamstrung with trying to build in trade-offs, even when they do not make sense.

[AliamRationem.5172]

I think some of them look really interesting.  Spectre and Willbender look really cool to me.  I just know I'll have a hard time not going back to weaver because it just doesn't get much cooler than that!

[Jski.6180]

They are just pve raid aimed and most ppl who pve are open world where being over specialized is bad for you. So you get dislike from most pve players and spvp/wvw. Raids are such a small population that any thing for it is seen as a waist of time by anet.

I only have problems with them because how of they are passing over the older elite spec with quickness and alacrity anet thinking some how that not going to mess up the balancing.

Edited February 20, 2022 by Jski.6180

[grx.8714]

They look cool because they are new and after playing the same builds and specs for years will be refreshing.

But let's be honest, lot of them, if not all, feel unfinished and without a specific role.

They had time I think, and giving beta tests access was really really good, but still they seems rushed.

If the new specs won't make it through, for example having the same double core necro and sup core guard in pvp meta, they will maybe make huge nerfs so people will play eod ones.

 

The coolest spec idea released for me was weaver, it's hard to beat that, and seeing catalyst is like... wtf is that? A core ele with a f5 that seems pretty useless and an underwhelming melee weapon the hammer, at least talking of pvp where i play the most.

 

We will see.

 

[Dadnir.5038]

10 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

I read alot of threads of saying people won't play the new elite specialisation because in terms of numbers the old ones are better. 

The new e-spec aren't bad in term of number but in term of mechanism/design.

- Catalyst is unimaginative as it's a crossbreed of tempest and weaver which make it absolutely unattractive (On another hand it got great number and amazing powercreep through new boons and self buffs)

- Mechanist is a pet spec which a large part of the engineer community didn't want to see.

- Willbender is design to reach maximum efficency when facing 5 non-thinking targets (which make it extremly niche).

- Virtuoso is a plain dps whose only advantage over other mesmer dps build is that it doesn't use clones in boss fights with phases (everywhere else it's just plain worse).

- Harbinger is punished for using it's main mechanism and have an unhealthy focus on elixirs (when you realize that there are e-spec out there that don't care about their utility and you see that harbinger dedicated 2 whole trait to elixirs, you know that there is a design issue)

- Untamed can't even compare to soulbeast in term of numbers. As for what it bring on the table, it's just underwhelming. Even the gameplay isn't exciting as it's basically core gameplay.

- Vindicator is an abomination. It got "good" number but design wise and lore wise it's aweful to the point that it break immersion.

- Specter is probably the big winner of the batch as it's the only spec worth using. Bringing with it a new exciting gameplay along with pretty good performances.

- Bladesworn, I wouldn't play it just on the basis that it got a greatsword gun saber. On top of it the sword draw gameplay is inadapted for a game like GW2. Taking this spec is just crippling yourself in competitive modes (sure it got "numbers" in PvE but with the summer patch you won't even have a reason to take warrior in PvE).

[Gotejjeken.1267]

I think they are aware of the underwhelming response from community--it will be interesting to see how much manpower is dedicated to a rework of some of these.  

A lot of this is misery is also tied to the nerfs they keep doing to core classes; and also things like CC not having any damage, a lot of skills still useless due to 300s CD, etc.  

Since Untamed was mentioned in the OP and I really only play ranger, I'll just say the most exciting prospect is ability to control everything pets do.  With pet swap it makes it different than Soulbeast as you actually have a lot more variety, the downside is it isn't personal variety and hinging everything on a pet teleport is tenuous. They'd need to seriously buff core ranger in some way and also probably give some damage back on CC for hammer to be taken. 

Knowing their line of thought to nerf the last e-spec to get people to play the current-- I think Soulbeast is in a good place with its one pet tradeoff, so I wouldn't want to see any nerfs to it.  

Edited February 20, 2022 by Gotejjeken.1267

[Mell.4873]

5 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

They are just pve raid aimed and most ppl who pve are open world where being over specialized is bad for you. So you get dislike from most pve players and spvp/wvw. Raids are such a small population that any thing for it is seen as a waist of time by anet.

I only have problems with them because how of they are passing over the older elite spec with quickness and alacrity anet thinking some how that not going to mess up the balancing.

Well there are raid bosses in pve. I mean most bounties are mini raid bosses even if they don't have as large of a hit boxes classes like the Virtuoso will still be valuable since they are ranged. 

Untamed will be valuable in terms of distracting veterans and bounties alike. I use chrono for that exact reason with its shield phantasm. 

[Mell.4873]

2 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

I think they are aware of the underwhelming response from community--it will be interesting to see how much manpower is dedicated to a rework of some of these.  

A lot of this is misery is also tied to the nerfs they keep doing to core classes; and also things like CC not having any damage, a lot of skills still useless due to 300s CD, etc.  

Since Untamed was mentioned in the OP and I really only play ranger, I'll just say the most exciting prospect is ability to control everything pets do.  With pet swap it makes it different than Soulbeast as you actually have a lot more variety, the downside is it isn't personal variety and hinging everything on a pet teleport is tenuous. They'd need to seriously buff core ranger in some way and also probably give some damage back on CC for hammer to be taken. 

Knowing their line of thought to nerf the last e-spec to get people to play the current-- I think Soulbeast is in a good place with its one pet tradeoff, so I wouldn't want to see any nerfs to it.  

Yeah I agree, but they should give arena net some time to balance everything. 

[Archer.4362]

35 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

Sí, estoy de acuerdo, pero deberían darle a Arena Net algo de tiempo para equilibrar todo. 

They've had a lot of time and if they read people's opinions in the Betas I would have delayed EOD for a complete rework of the specs, because all but the necro are crap. a new specialization that mimics a core, no thanks.

[Puck.3697]

2 hours ago, Archer.4362 said:

They've had a lot of time and if they read people's opinions in the Betas I would have delayed EOD for a complete rework of the specs, because all but the necro are crap. a new specialization that mimics a core, no thanks.

Considering they have budget allocations that's not a realistic approach in realistic circumstances. 

To add to this, the new EoD speccs are simply a different approach, the problem is they're making us wait til summer to actually see how this fits in the jigsaw so they look incredibly underwhelming. 

The issue is these elites live closer to the orginal statement of "elites aren't upgrades just new options" more then the prior 2 waves that have shown pure power creep in mechanics. 

PoFs elites were fundamentally bad for the game and the current issues surrounding are direct proof of that. The issue is, we need the same power creep reverting done to the other 2 waves of elites before the EoD speccs look comparable. 

[Hirosama Nadasaki.6792]

17 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

I read alot of threads of saying people won't play the new elite specialisation because in terms of numbers the old ones are better. 

I would say what do you expect, the power creap would be too real if they where to up the numbers. I mean nothing will beat chronomancer 3 clone shatter on a golem but give virtuoso shatter a raid boss or aoe fight and they do more damage.

Same thing with untamed, I mean people wanted a no pet class but that is literally soulbeast where there is no point in using the pet since command skills become OP when merged. Untamed provides a stronger pet where you can avoid the messy AI by teleporting the pet into battle.

 

Edit: Not to bad of a response all things considering. 

 

 

Making the new elite specs intentionally weaker than older ones does not solve power creep, it just makes them dead on arrival while leaving the old power crept specializations still on top.

Regarding Chrono/Virtuoso, a power chrono deals either equal or more damage than virtuoso regardless of raidboss or golem, and most importantly, it does so while still having big party utility. Virtuoso does nothing except damage, and it doesn't even bring enough damage to justify that.

But the worst part is, all this benchmarking, damage values discussions isn't even the biggest complaint, the biggest gripe people have with virtuoso is that it removes a mechanic (clones) while not adding anything in return. Blades are nothing more than glorified stack counters, and you lose any utility that clones might have such as directing enemy damage and applying condis; and no, keeping blades after the target dies is barely a trade-off.

On top of that, the virtuoso shatters do exactly the same thing core, chrono, and mirage shatters do, except worse because you can dodge them by side stepping, they have cast times, they lose the aoe, they require you to be facing the target (deadly difference in pvp), and they are susceptible to projectile hate; all on top of the F4 shatter being worse than distortion in every conceivable way.

All in all, people are hating on Virtuoso because it brings nothing new, takes away much of the old, and is overall just a significantly worse version of core mesmer.

All of this isn't to convince you to hate virtuoso aswell or to change your mind about it, I'm saying this so you can maybe understand why people aren't happy with some of the elite specs, and that even though you might not feel the same way as them, their views are still valid.

[phokus.8934]

8 minutes ago, Hirosama Nadasaki.6792 said:

 

Making the new elite specs intentionally weaker than older ones does not solve power creep, it just makes them dead on arrival while leaving the old power crept specializations still on top.

Regarding Chrono/Virtuoso, a power chrono deals either equal or more damage than virtuoso regardless of raidboss or golem, and most importantly, it does so while still having big party utility. Virtuoso does nothing except damage, and it doesn't even bring enough damage to justify that.

But the worst part is, all this benchmarking, damage values discussions isn't even the biggest complaint, the biggest gripe people have with virtuoso is that it removes a mechanic (clones) while not adding anything in return. Blades are nothing more than glorified stack counters, and you lose any utility that clones might have such as directing enemy damage and applying condis; and no, keeping blades after the target dies is barely a trade-off.

On top of that, the virtuoso shatters do exactly the same thing core, chrono, and mirage shatters do, except worse because you can dodge them by side stepping, they have cast times, they lose the aoe, they require you to be facing the target (deadly difference in pvp), and they are susceptible to projectile hate; all on top of the F4 shatter being worse than distortion in every conceivable way.

All in all, people are hating on Virtuoso because it brings nothing new, takes away much of the old, and is overall just a significantly worse version of core mesmer.

All of this isn't to convince you to hate virtuoso aswell or to change your mind about it, I'm saying this so you can maybe understand why people aren't happy with some of the elite specs, and that even though you might not feel the same way as them, their views are still valid.

Virtuoso is an absolute dumpster but people glaze over everything just because of the no actual clones to manage.

[Jski.6180]

6 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Well there are raid bosses in pve. I mean most bounties are mini raid bosses even if they don't have as large of a hit boxes classes like the Virtuoso will still be valuable since they are ranged. 

Untamed will be valuable in terms of distracting veterans and bounties alike. I use chrono for that exact reason with its shield phantasm. 

There also a cap of player for though raid boss open world is nearly un-caped. Big vs small hit boxes is more of an issues with anet programing then any thing else. Most bosses are set pices where you are not so much fighting a boss but trying to hit min benchmarks and preforming a minly game of that boss. Quickness and alacrity are just going to be a massive part of that benchmark now sadly that is EoD only for most classes.

[Mell.4873]

2 hours ago, Hirosama Nadasaki.6792 said:

 

Making the new elite specs intentionally weaker than older ones does not solve power creep, it just makes them dead on arrival while leaving the old power crept specializations still on top.

Regarding Chrono/Virtuoso, a power chrono deals either equal or more damage than virtuoso regardless of raidboss or golem, and most importantly, it does so while still having big party utility. Virtuoso does nothing except damage, and it doesn't even bring enough damage to justify that.

But the worst part is, all this benchmarking, damage values discussions isn't even the biggest complaint, the biggest gripe people have with virtuoso is that it removes a mechanic (clones) while not adding anything in return. Blades are nothing more than glorified stack counters, and you lose any utility that clones might have such as directing enemy damage and applying condis; and no, keeping blades after the target dies is barely a trade-off.

On top of that, the virtuoso shatters do exactly the same thing core, chrono, and mirage shatters do, except worse because you can dodge them by side stepping, they have cast times, they lose the aoe, they require you to be facing the target (deadly difference in pvp), and they are susceptible to projectile hate; all on top of the F4 shatter being worse than distortion in every conceivable way.

All in all, people are hating on Virtuoso because it brings nothing new, takes away much of the old, and is overall just a significantly worse version of core mesmer.

All of this isn't to convince you to hate virtuoso aswell or to change your mind about it, I'm saying this so you can maybe understand why people aren't happy with some of the elite specs, and that even though you might not feel the same way as them, their views are still valid.

Yeah I agree for the most part but don't you think they will buff the shatter damage. The whole virtuoso argument mostly revolves around this. Most people even don't care about the lack of clones. 

It seems like the whole problem does boil down to you cant please everyone when a new specialisation is introduced especially when we already have 2. I mean I want to play virtouso since I no longer need to deal with clones in open world pve.

For fractals I will probably use the old elites specialisations. 

[Puck.3697]

2 hours ago, Hirosama Nadasaki.6792 said:

Making the new elite specs intentionally weaker than older ones does not solve power creep, it just makes them dead on arrival while leaving the old power crept specializations still on top

Agreed. 

That's a problem with the fact they delayed core and current elite proffession changes to summer patch and have only done some minor ones around mainly PvP for EoDs launch. 

They have started they intend to turn PoF and HoTs elite back to EoD elites power level. But yes it's a huge concern that this games about to launch a expansion where every new elite is effectively useless until potientally a patch several months after. 

[Mell.4873]

1 minute ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Agreed. 

That's a problem with the fact they delayed core and current elite proffession changes to summer patch and have only done some minor ones around mainly PvP for EoDs launch. 

They have started they intend to turn PoF and HoTs elite back to EoD elites power level. But yes it's a huge concern that this games about to launch a expansion where every new elite is effectively useless until potientally a patch several months after. 

Yeah I agree they will most likely nerf the other elites, at least the ones that are over preforming like Firebrand, renegade and scourge stated in blog post. 

It honestly is a good thing since the standardisation of boons will make the game easier not harder, power creap is a real problem in MMOs. 

[Jski.6180]

18 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Agreed. 

That's a problem with the fact they delayed core and current elite proffession changes to summer patch and have only done some minor ones around mainly PvP for EoDs launch. 

They have started they intend to turn PoF and HoTs elite back to EoD elites power level. But yes it's a huge concern that this games about to launch a expansion where every new elite is effectively useless until potientally a patch several months after. 

That the thing they are weaker but they have the benchmark boons that the PoF and HoT elites lack. In effect anet has "given" more classes the boons they need but only on weaker version of that class. Where you see these benchmark boons on non EoD version of other classes that are VERY much power creeped over EoD.

Its a complete mess of balancing that we are likely not to see a real fix or even a try at a fix till the summer.

[Xenesis.6389]

On 2/20/2022 at 1:24 AM, grx.8714 said:

But let's be honest, lot of them, if not all, feel unfinished and without a specific role.

Because they went too far off the reservation going away from core mechanics and tried to make some of these specs resemble some other class.

Catalyst - a blast field... ok now what?

Specter - necro/chrono hybrid, their wells puts chrono's to shame

Willbender - thief go fast boi

Vindicator - mirage dodge nerfs were bad, wait till they get a load of me

Mechanist - we really wanted to be a ranger when we grew up

Bladesworn - Big D... windup animations

Untamed - steal some necro green, sprinkle some aoes, a dab of cc's, flick in some boon stripping, tries to sneak into zerg as a necro, we good for zerging yet? what do you mean get rid of the pet? I can't let go of my besty buddy no way! look, they can strip too ok? ookaay?

Harbinger - yeah, like, having all that health, was like tiresome, totally, didn't need it all, like we don't have other defenses, but like, that's ok, lets like, show those engineer rabble, like, how elixirs really work! ugh so many words in the directions, like whatever, just  like toss em wherever...

Virtuoso - masters of utility now become the masters of aoes bwahahahahahah! fear us mortals! here comes the pain!.... wait what do you mean we have to give up all our important defense utility slots for it? my weapon only comes with 3 skills? wait my clone homies are now projectiles that can be blocked practically the entire time in bubblemania zerg fights? ugh.. back to chrono... yes.. yes masters, gravity well coming up...

Edited February 21, 2022 by Xenesis.6389

[Puck.3697]

16 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

That the thing they are weaker but they have the benchmark boons that the PoF and HoT elites lack. In effect anet has "given" more classes the boons they need but only on weaker version of that class. Where you see these benchmark boons on non EoD version of other classes that are VERY much power creeped over EoD.

Its a complete mess of balancing that we are likely not to see a real fix or even a try at a fix till the summer.

Well yeah pretty much, but I'm guessing the idea is to make all the other elites as weak as EoDs effectively. 

Just then give weaver alac. So it can have a role atleast too. 

1 up on that, give elementalists staff a alac trait so we can see a offensive support staff build. 

[Jski.6180]

4 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Well yeah pretty much, but I'm guessing the idea is to make all the other elites as weak as EoDs effectively. 

Just then give weaver alac. So it can have a role atleast too. 

1 up on that, give elementalists staff a alac trait so we can see a offensive support staff build. 

I think weaver needs at least some self quickness much like ranger has some self quickness. Its tempest that needs support alacrity on say its overloads.

[Hirosama Nadasaki.6792]

1 hour ago, Mell.4873 said:

Yeah I agree for the most part but don't you think they will buff the shatter damage.

 

I don't. Arena Net has a very big habit of mucking things up and leaving them mucked for years on end. I'm taking things on a "I'll believe it when I see it" basis.

 

1 hour ago, Mell.4873 said:

The whole virtuoso argument mostly revolves around this.

 

It doesn't. At all. There are a myriad of complaints about it on several fronts, many completely unrelated to its damage output. Go browse the mesmer forum a bit and you'll find them in no time.

 

1 hour ago, Mell.4873 said:

Most people even don't care about the lack of clones.

 

A no-clone e-spec isn't inherently bad, in fact it's something people have been asking for a long time. The problem is Virtuoso takes away clones and gives nothing in return.

 

1 hour ago, Mell.4873 said:

It seems like the whole problem does boil down to you cant please everyone when a new specialisation is introduced especially when we already have 2.

 

There's a real big gap between "pleasing everyone" and the immense backlash Virtuoso is getting. And if anything having 2 previous e-specs should've helped the third one since that's 2 rounds of experience and feedback Anet has gotten on mesmer especializations.

 

1 hour ago, Mell.4873 said:

I mean I want to play virtouso since I no longer need to deal with clones in open world pve.

 

And that's fine. If you like Virtuoso and want to play it, go right ahead, enjoy yourself. Just don't try to come here and say people who complain about Virtuoso aren't valid while ignoring the vast majority of what they're saying in the first place. If anything, complaints about it will only help you, as they'll serve to make Virtuoso a better, more polished e-spec.

[Mell.4873]

8 minutes ago, Hirosama Nadasaki.6792 said:

 

I don't. Arena Net has a very big habit of mucking things up and leaving them mucked for years on end. I'm taking things on a "I'll believe it when I see it" basis.

 

 

It doesn't. At all. There are a myriad of complaints about it on several fronts, many completely unrelated to its damage output. Go browse the mesmer forum a bit and you'll find them in no time.

 

 

A no-clone e-spec isn't inherently bad, in fact it's something people have been asking for a long time. The problem is Virtuoso takes away clones and gives nothing in return.

 

 

There's a real big gap between "pleasing everyone" and the immense backlash Virtuoso is getting. And if anything having 2 previous e-specs should've helped the third one since that's 2 rounds of experience and feedback Anet has gotten on mesmer especializations.

 

 

And that's fine. If you like Virtuoso and want to play it, go right ahead, enjoy yourself. Just don't try to come here and say people who complain about Virtuoso aren't valid while ignoring the vast majority of what they're saying in the first place. If anything, complaints about it will only help you, as they'll serve to make Virtuoso a better, more polished e-spec.

Yeah I can see your point, I mostly come here to voice my support of the new elite specialisations. I mean I don't want them to redesign them like many people have asked for. They just need to tweak and buff them where needed. 

There is not much point in arguing semantics since I have been all over the mesmer forum where they talk about virtouso, some of the post are me again so I get it. 

Alot of people are happy about the no-clone spec especially Elementalist players who wanted a ranged caster. 

Edited February 20, 2022 by Mell.4873

[oscuro.9720]

11 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

(sure it got "numbers" in PvE but with the summer patch you won't even have a reason to take warrior in PvE).

Reason? You want a reason to play warrior? How about warrior is directly superior to all other classes? How about warrior is feared by everyone far and wide that has seen the gleam of warriors armor on the battlefield? How about warrior being the walking manifestation of a thousand suns?

But look, none of this matters. Warrior doesn’t need reasons to kill. Warrior does not need reasons to feel the tingling in the spine while chasing down the dozens of fleeing enemies, ripping them apart one by one in a bloody dance of savagery. Warrior does not need reasons to crave the exhilaration of standing over warrior’s maimed and defeated foes. 

Reasons. Hah. Do you need a reason to eat? Or breathe? Or kitten? No. It’s simply in your nature. 

 

please add stow to gunsaber.

Edited February 20, 2022 by oscuro.9720

[Levetty.1279]

On 2/19/2022 at 10:31 PM, Mell.4873 said:

I mean nothing will beat chronomancer 3 clone shatter on a golem but give virtuoso shatter a raid boss or aoe fight and they do more damage.

 

Virtuoso shatters do less damage, have less aoe and take longer to cast.

 

You also seem to be confusing what people thought Untamed would be based on the teaser for what Untamed actually is.