Nerfing supports + removal of target limits.

[ArchonWing.9480]

Minionmancers are OP now?

I've seen everything now.

[Mabi black.1824]

I can't quite grasp the point of this post.

I read above by 20 vs 40 and those outnumbered are at a disadvantage for the mechanics of the game.

but the mechanics of the game are applied to all players of the two teams, in the exact same way, with the same limitations. and if you change any coefficient or limit you get it on both sides and they will be identical again.

 

Edited February 23, 2022 by Mabi black.1824

[The Boz.2038]

2 minutes ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

I can't quite grasp the point of this post.

He wants to meteor shower the entire zerg.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

3 hours ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

I can't quite grasp the point of this post.

I read above by 20 vs 40 and those outnumbered are at a disadvantage for the mechanics of the game.

but the mechanics of the game are applied to all players of the two teams, in the exact same way, with the same limitations. and if you change any coefficient or limit you get it on both sides and they will be identical again.

 

Mechanics are the same yes. But what people don’t get is how dispersion of damage works with the target cap system and AOE skills and how this heavily favors larger groups over smaller ones
 

The more players you have, the more damage you can disperse (distribute damage among other players) when skills have a target cap. 
 

as the number of players increases, the chance that your attack will hit a single player more than once approaches 0, because the target system is based on proximity of the skills radius from the center. Since the center is stochastically always changing in a realistic zerg, your pulsing AoE damage gets distributed and thus becomes more easily healed through.

 

You can actually go and exploit this behavior and it’s been done before, and really it happens all the time naturally (stacking as many bodies as possible). course people refuse to actually understand how the game works rather than just testing it out themselves.

 

Edited February 23, 2022 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Mabi black.1824]

30 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

Mechanics are the same yes. But what people don’t get is how dispersion of damage works with the target cap system and AOE skills and how this heavily favors larger groups over smaller ones
 

The more players you have, the more damage you can disperse (distribute damage among other players) when skills have a target cap. 
 

 

thanks justice you were very clear.

however it remains confirmed that the mechanics of your aoe pulsating damage ability or not will work the same way for both teams.

those 40 vs 20 will still be twice as likely to spread the damage, plus they will be twice as likely to do damage, clean conditions, and care for their companions.

we can think of all the changes we want for many attack and defense skills that will still go to both teams, but the odds will always remain one twice as high as the other.

with this I do not mean that those 20 guys can not get away with the other 40, if they are lucky, if they take advantage of the surprise, if they are more coordinated with a better strategy and the enemy does not, then they will still have a lot of fun.

so I still can't take the point of this post.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

2 hours ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

thanks justice you were very clear.

however it remains confirmed that the mechanics of your aoe pulsating damage ability or not will work the same way for both teams.

those 40 vs 20 will still be twice as likely to spread the damage, plus they will be twice as likely to do damage, clean conditions, and care for their companions.

The first half of the statement is wrong but the second half is correct. The larger team will have twice as many people using twice as many skills as the opposing team. But the team of 20 can not disperse as much damage as the team of 40 due to the caps. The 40 man team is twice as efficient at neutralizing the team of 20s attacks through that dispersion mentioned earlier making them 4x effective rather than just 2x effective, which is what you should expect in a 20v40…that the 40 man should only be 2x as effective not 4x effective.

can also think about it like this. Say you have 16 players in your group, Team A, which has all necros or something running 5 minions (rise or something). Your 16 man group now has 80 bodies to disperse damage. Meaning that if this 16 man verses another equivalent 16 man group Team B, , then Team B’s  5 target aoe damage is getting dispersed among 80 bodies rather than 16 bodies…so the probability that pulsing AOE abilities hit a target more than once drops by about 80%. Thus Team A is 5x more effective at negating Team B’s damage.

Idk if you remember the rune of the golemancer meta or whatever it was called... that popped up for a bit…the reason that was a thing was because people brought a rune that gave them an extra body. 80 people with this rune meant they had 160 bodies to disperse damage, making them 2x more effective at dispersing AOE pulsing damage from equivalent sized groups.

Edited February 23, 2022 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[RisenHowl.2419]

3 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

People in G Fight community know of Risen…he’s “new” to that scene and is a laughing stock there. Refuses to actually play even fights against other guilds, brags about outnumbering them…Which is also why he probably doesn’t have nor wants to fight any 15 v 30’s let alone any even fights.

 

about fighting outnumbered, most people can’t do it anymore. The people that did no longer play, and the knowledge of how it was done was lost with their departure. Part of that knowledge is how the target system works…and you can tell that majority of people on this thread don’t know so it makes sense people cant 10v30.

In addition, too many nerfs happened and fighting outnumbered is way more difficult to do because of the limitations placed upon the unfavorable scaling of fights. 

still salty man, that's unfortunate

 

also tf is the g fight community? there's like 30 incels left on NA that want to make that a thing. I get that you want to pass around theoretical napkin math that has no basis in reality but if your ideas worked people would use them lol

Edit:

If anyone wants to see where justice learned how target caps work

Edited February 23, 2022 by RisenHowl.2419

[Mabi black.1824]

2 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

The first half of the statement is wrong but the second half is correct. The larger team will have twice as many people using twice as many skills as the opposing team. But the team of 20 can not disperse as much damage as the team of 40 due to the caps. The 40 man team is twice as efficient at neutralizing the team of 20s attacks through that dispersion mentioned earlier making them 4x effective rather than just 2x effective, which is what you should expect in a 20v40…that the 40 man should only be 2x as effective not 4x effective.

maybe I explained myself badly, I try again.

what I mean is that those 20 players also have the same benefit of damage sharing, the mechanics apply in the same way to them.

surely as you say if I pile up several players in the same place I further decrease the chances that the damage will fall on the same more than once.

but this is the intrinsic limit of ability. example hit 5 enemies with 1000 of damage , your weapon with that skill will have a maximum damage of 5000.

now if you ask me to spread the damage to all 40 players piled up instead of 5 I'm fine as long as the limit of the damage of that weapon and its ability remains 5000.

otherwise if we do not respect this logic then everything is worthwhile. but if you increase the damage capital of that elementarist I will immediately ask you to do the same to my warrior.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

46 minutes ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

maybe I explained myself badly, I try again.

what I mean is that those 20 players also have the same benefit of damage sharing, the mechanics apply in the same way to them.

They do not have the same benefit, not the same as a group of 40. A group of 40 can disperse two times as much than a group of 20 can, thus the group of 20s effectiveness is 1/4 of the group of 40 (because the group of 20 have half the players using skills and have half of the potential to disperse damage because the opposing group has 40 players)

Another example, say you are in a 1v1 and you are fighting a necromancer that brought 9 minions with him, and you use a 5 target ability. That ability will hit only 5 of those 10 bodies. If this ability pulses for another set of damage, it will hit again only 5 of those targets, but probabilistically not the same ones. 
 

if the necromancer is hit the first time and not the second time, then the necromancer neutered your skills effectiveness by 50%. You did your skills full damage (10,000) but that damage is spread out to 10 bodies (10,000/10) meaning you only do 1000 DPS per target rather than 2000 DPS per target (10,000/5)

This dispersion makes it easier to heal people because it effectively staggers the damage your Zerg is taking out over time in chunks that healer can cope with.

Edited February 23, 2022 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[aspirine.6852]

What ever happend to the bring your own boons/heals manifest that anet was swinging around in the beginning..

[Xenesis.6389]

18 minutes ago, aspirine.6852 said:

What ever happend to the bring your own boons/heals manifest that anet was swinging around in the beginning..

Went out the window when they decided to do traditional expansions, which brought raids, which brought support elite specs, which converted combat from blasting fields to boon and condi combat spam, which added concentration and expertise for more gear sets, which brought tanky support minstrels.

You still bring your own boons/heals, they're called pocket support....

[ArchonWing.9480]

4 hours ago, RisenHowl.2419 said:

still salty man, that's unfortunate

 

also tf is the g fight community? there's like 30 incels left on NA

What are you talking about? Totally bunch of  alphas that go out and look for content by hiding their tag so nobody knows it's a guild group while seeking the best challenge against random pug tags, and then salt whispering lol gvg me bro knowing they can't accept because half the group is going to sleep and the other half has no interest in a kitten measuring contest.

Well, don't get me wrong. There are still guilds out there that seek to improve and fight by seeking the hardest fights. However, they are often confused for the large hoard of wannabes that say they're looking for fights but then stack all in the same server so they can't fight each other. Then they cry when the pugs start moaing them a few times and then it implodes.

Which ones are we talking about here? Well, if we're talking about where I think I am, then I'm pretty sure those people don't actually play the game but just meme. The WvW discord is kinda dead, and is useful only for porn now. Kinda ironic of me myself, but then again I never came to discredit people based on their alleged skill especially when the source is probably fake news.

Edited February 23, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[Dawdler.8521]

3 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

They do not have the same benefit, not the same as a group of 40. A group of 40 can disperse two times as much than a group of 20 can, thus the group of 20s effectiveness is 1/4 of the group of 40 (because the group of 20 have half the players using skills and have half of the potential to disperse damage because the opposing group has 40 players)

Another example, say you are in a 1v1 and you are fighting a necromancer that brought 9 minions with him, and you use a 5 target ability. That ability will hit only 5 of those 10 bodies. If this ability pulses for another set of damage, it will hit again only 5 of those targets, but probabilistically not the same ones. 
 

if the necromancer is hit the first time and not the second time, then the necromancer neutered your skills effectiveness by 50%. You did your skills full damage (10,000) but that damage is spread out to 10 bodies (10,000/10) meaning you only do 1000 DPS per target rather than 2000 DPS per target (10,000/5)

This dispersion makes it easier to heal people because it effectively staggers the damage your Zerg is taking out over time in chunks that healer can cope with.

None of this is how the fights end in practice, because the target cap doesnt mean anything. 

The reason that 40 man stack win over 20 man? Boons, reflection/absorb domes and condi cleansing. That's it. Mostly just a crapload of boons. It's the same reason the 20 man can absolutely roflstomp the 40 man as well. If they dont have a comp and boons and cleansing support, they're pretty much dead.  The target cap is the same for everyone regardless of zerg size, organisation or skill. But the amount of boon support vary wildly depending on this.

Hell just remove one aspect of this, reflection/blocks/absorbs and watch the huge stacked zergs take a nosedive in effectiveness while the more scattered ranged cloud gain a massive amount of strength.

You necro example isnt how AoE damage work. It's not spread out based on total damage and target count. Damage is the same per target (ignoring enemy armor), regardless of how many targets. Also a necro cannot have 9 minions in a 1v1. They have like 7 at best where half of them will die if you sneeze at them, most will likely have 4-5. Necro minions have 5-13k HP untraited and 7-19k traited. You will have eliminated the target cap "issue" within seconds because you can no longer hit target cap. And all this assumes the minions can even keep up with the players position. They cant.

Edited February 23, 2022 by Dawdler.8521

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

46 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Damage is the same per target (ignoring enemy armor), regardless of how many targets.

I mean it’s obvious you are not understanding the example. You’ve got 10 targets and an ability that targets 5 of them. The damage remains the same obviously…but who it decides to hit does not. It will hit based on proximity of the center and who is closest to the center is always changing in a realistic setting where people move stochastically in a ball.
 

I really don’t have the patience or time to explain the same thing 100 times. If you can’t read what is said I won’t repeat it. Argue about it all you want, this is the behavior of the target system based on its rules.

Edited February 23, 2022 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Dawdler.8521]

39 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 It will hit based on proximity of the center and who is closest to the center is always changing in a realistic setting where people move stochastically in a ball.

Have you ever seen minions in combat move in a ball with the necro?

I dont even know why we are still talking about 1v1 minionmancers as if they are some kind of magical unkillable super roamer that abuse the target cap to win and makes those poor AoE eles pee their pants in terror or something. Guess I stirred up a hornets nest with that, sorry.

Edited February 24, 2022 by Dawdler.8521

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

3 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

but then again I never came to discredit people based on their alleged skill especially when the source is probably fake news.

Risen won't show any outnumbered fights...but I have one here that he won't show that speaks for itself.

 

 

Edited February 24, 2022 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[God.2708]

So the weird target caps would even the odds is weirding me out with the mathematical references.

AoEs target things closest to the center. The importance of this of course gets tossed out when target caps are removed.

Any GOOD group should be trying to focus their damage stacks as close together as possible because that means all their 'whatever' damage is hitting the same people. You don't call for a well spike and want it all over Tyria. You expect it to be localized in a very small space so the same people are getting hit by it and downing. This of course is impractical to achieve perfect sync, but it's also impractical to achieve a perfect ball while moving so it evens out.

The result of the above is that you simply need to math out the number of skills to down people to determine when the game goes to kitten. CoR deals 5k damage? If you have 4 revs with no target caps, no one can get within 1.2k range of you. Adding more revs just gives you more room for error in achieving concentration of fire. This IN NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM GIVES ANY ADVANTAGE WHAT SO EVER TO THE SMALLER GROUP. It just gives an advantage to the group that hits first. Which if your small group is a group of super elites who can chain stealth blasts in smoke fields or something is great. Which is the reason after removing target caps everyone would pack up their bags and go play minecraft or something.

The other side of the coin is that target caps give an advantage to the larger group. That misses the forest for the trees. The advantage to the larger group is because they have more people. It's not any more complex than that. They have more room for error for achieving concentration of fire (or support) because it's more likely their AoEs overlap. Small groups can beat bigger groups by achieving more effective concentration of fire while disrupting the opponents. Or abusing skills that hit more people assuming the larger group isn't doing the same.

If big groups are dispersing damage, you just need to get good and focus fire better.  If you removed target caps the only thing that would happen is the number of 'Remove Stealth' topics on this forum would increase 5 fold.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

25 minutes ago, God.2708 said:

The result of the above is that you simply need to math out the number of skills to down people to determine when the game goes to kitten. CoR deals 5k damage? If you have 4 revs with no target caps, no one can get within 1.2k range of you. Adding more revs just gives you more room for error in achieving concentration of fire. This IN NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM GIVES ANY ADVANTAGE WHAT SO EVER TO THE SMALLER GROUP. It just gives an advantage to the group that hits first. Which if your small group is a group of super elites who can chain stealth blasts in smoke fields or something is great. Which is the reason after removing target caps everyone would pack up their bags and go play minecraft or something.

 

It's because it's an issue with balance in the game (no tradeoffs that scale with combat)

 

If you read the threads i linked on page 2 or whatever, the first thread states the exact issue with how scaling is involved with the balance issues of the game. You can imagine that if you had a one shot power mesmer, and it didn't have a target cap, it would wipe a 80 man group in a near instant. This is Risens argument about certain skills and builds being broken without target caps. In that thread I explain how that is a balance problem and target caps actually reveal that as the case.

 

Typically, using a skill for against 80 people is a high reward...and equivalently there should be a high risk. Skills in gw2 do not have a risk vs reward tradeoff associated with their skill usage...instead they are balanced based on the damage they can do with how many targets they can potentially effect.

 

This is how Anet does balance: you want to balance Backstab with Meteor Shower, you make them both do 10,000 total damage, where one does 10,000 single target damage and the other does 500 damage per player for 4 pulses (500x5x4=10,000)

 

The issue like i said with that kind of balancing, is the target cap. It prevents the backstab thief from being able to scale in a zerg fight. likewise, the meteor shower elementalst can't scale with the 1v1 fight. The target cap forces certain skills and builds to not work because of this balance approach.

 

So you see, target cap is at the center of all the balance issues in the game. That issue would be alleviated if skills had scaling tradeoffs with their scaling payoffs, where all skills can hit any number of targets, but you have low reward low risk the less targets there are, and high risk and high reward the more targets there are.

 

In Guild Wars 1, there was no target cap. You could in fact take on as many enemies as you wanted, and the risk scaled with the reward of that. Balance of the game was based on these things and it's why many builds were viable and had many possible compositions is because of this unique property for skills to scale anywhere in the game.

Edited February 24, 2022 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[ArchonWing.9480]

58 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

Risen is not a bad player. He's just on a high horse because he commands people and makes them run his comps under the guise that he is a "pro" and that his word is law (not a unique feature to him, lots of bad commanders do that). If he actually curbed this behavior a bit, he would actually pick up a thing or two. This problem of his is well documented and well known and honestly I'm sure you've heard.

 

Anyway, Risen won't show any outnumbered fights...probably cause he doesn't have one since he is partly the type of person that you describe in your comment...but I have one here that he won't show that speaks for itself.

 

 

I am not sure what you are getting at. I have no interest in discussing Risen as a player as that's irrelevant to this topic.

And as for the video, so they lost to indo's boon ball. Indo is a good commander. Nothing wrong with that. Also green dots, so it's not exactly 27 vs 57. People like to only count numbers in squad.

But not surprising given the WvW community, lol.

Edited February 24, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[Avion Blade.4869]

Power damage struggles due to Aegis and protection.

Condi damage struggles due to cleanse and resolution.

CC struggles due to stability and profession/spec specific invuls.

 

But really what PUGS need to work on is implementing boon removers into their roam or small group build. Which is why stack vs stack fights last a while because it is a battle of whose boons will last longest to tank and when their boons go out, so do does their group, being downed and stomped via domino effect.

Of course if it is just you vs, the enemy team's group/zerg/blob what would you expect, but if you are talking about contributing toward weakening them before your team's group/zerg/blob shows up, it would be better to save your cooldowns when more people come and just scout out how many of what profession is in that group. 

 

However! The most useful skills to help against zerg are AOE invis and/or AOE boon/removers; any reflects, and also aoe blocks vs projectiles. Singling out the players not in their stack also help.

Another things is basically communication; sometimes I type to have people's utilities to swap to anti-boon and then you see some progress made. 

 

The thing about stacking though is that if you don't fit yourself right, even if you stack, you'll eat up the damage and die quickly because you didn't have enough toughness/vitality and the support's max-cap is used up by others in the stack.

I get your frustration though, we want to be useful and feel bad if we feel useless. The overlap of boon sharing is really too much.

 

Another thing! Don't feel bad about using another teammate as a meat shield. You can take turns going in front of each other to share direct LOS damage and tank for each other. It goes both ways tbh.

 

In short, fighting those boons blobs requires your own team's boon blob. Nobody should go to war with the lesser of equipment, and unfortunately the same applies to WvW.

Edited February 24, 2022 by Avion Blade.4869

[God.2708]

26 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

It's because it's an issue with balance in the game (no tradeoffs that scale with combat)

 

If you read the threads i linked on page 2 or whatever, the first thread states the exact issue with how scaling is involved with the balance issues of the game. You can imagine that if you had a one shot power mesmer, and it didn't have a target cap, it would wipe a 80 man group in a near instant. This is Risens argument about certain skills and builds being broken without target caps. In that thread I explain how that is a balance problem and target caps actually reveal that as the case.

 

Typically, using a skill for against 80 people is a high reward...and equivalently there should be a high risk. Skills in gw2 do not have a risk vs reward tradeoff associated with their skill usage...instead they are balanced based on the damage they can do with how many targets they can potentially effect.

 

This is how Anet does balance: you want to balance Backstab with Meteor Shower, you make them both do 10,000 total damage, where one does 10,000 single target damage and the other does 500 damage per player for 4 pulses (500x5x4=10,000)

 

The issue like i said with that kind of balancing, is the target cap. It prevents the backstab thief from being able to scale in a zerg fight. likewise, the meteor shower elementalst can't scale with the 1v1 fight. The target cap forces certain skills and builds to not work because of this balance approach.

 

So you see, target cap is at the center of all the balance issues in the game. That issue would be alleviated if skills had scaling tradeoffs with their scaling payoffs, where all skills can hit any number of targets, but you have low reward low risk the less targets there are, and high risk and high reward the more targets there are.

 

In Guild Wars 1, there was no target cap. You could in fact take on as many enemies as you wanted, and the risk scaled with the reward of that. Balance of the game was based on these things and it's why many builds were viable and had many possible compositions is because of this unique property for skills to scale anywhere in the game.

No

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

35 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

I am not sure what you are getting at. I have no interest in discussing Risen as a player as that's irrelevant to this topic.

And as for the video, so they lost to indo's boon ball. Indo is a good commander. Nothing wrong with that. Also green dots, so it's not exactly 27 vs 57. People like to only count numbers in squad.

But not surprising given the WvW community, lol.

 

3rd attempt at making a comment. 

I am not here to discuss Risen's ability as a player either. Just his lack of experience in fighting outnumbered and against exp players that actually do fight outnunmbered. All I did was post some facts, make of those facts what you will.

Edited February 24, 2022 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Solvryn.3287]

I can certainly understand the notion to adding a bit more tactical acumen, decision making, and more skill involved in the game. I think that zerging isn't really PvP at all, more or less it's unmitigated and unchallenged PvE.

 

I do think a well put together havoc squad should be able to railroad a blob of 50 should they be talented enough. But I've been of the mind that if a single player is talented enough the amount of bodies they can stack should be endless. 

 

That's proper PvP to me, strategy, tactical acumen, talent, organization above all else. 

[Swagger.1459]

Well, the team isn’t going to nerf support or remove target caps, so where do we go from here? And if large groups are a problem to someone, then the fair and balanced spvp is the alternative. 

[Mabi black.1824]

excellent summary, let's try to go only a little further and help my personal ignorance.

I don't use support or healing characters, so my question is whether healing skills also have the same logic, they have a limit of 5 players to spread their healing.

the same question applies to here block walls or those protective balls, do they also have a limit of 5 players at a time?

to have a minimum of balance I guess so, it would be unfair to make those benefeci unlimited .