Why Guild Wars 2 Especially Needs Low Intensity Builds

[captrowdy.9561]

I would be one of those casual players you speak of. I just did some research. I play all the classes with minimal issues.
 

This is far better then ESO combat where if you don’t cancel a skill by switching weapons your dps would plummet and you would be kicked from group and sent angry messages. 

[Warscythes.9307]

2 hours ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

 

So why Anet is trying to get these people to raise their skill levels by making more difficult content in OW is beyond me.

 

Because there are people like me who raid and love open world content. I WISH the OW content is not braindead as it is now and I hope there are interesting rewards addedd as well. The issue with keeping OW forever easy that you can do literally anything you want is that is not fun for the people who do try. This is especially grievous in GW2 because the difference between a bad build and an optimized build can be 10x the difference. GW2 by design is not an easy game  for people to faceroll due to the amount of different ways that you can screw up your character compare to a game like FF14 where you have literally no customization so the margin is much smaller. You don't want players to feel practically all OW is so boring that it doesn't feel worth playing. I don't have fun facerolling through content and I imagine I am not the only one. This is why I ask for harder OW content and I wish people would get better in general so we can all experience it together. 

Edited June 1, 2022 by Warscythes.9307

[standardFoe.2983]

Seriously the idea that 'most players' in GW2 are so brain-dead and incapable of basic research into a decade old game is quite offensive to me.  I only run open world content on mesmer, thief, ranger, and ele, not always with brilliant success but even in budget gear surviving is not difficult.

 

The idea that in an MMO it would be okay to have no gear or skill level and just be able to solo all open world content is awful, go play a single-player on god-mode if that's what you want.  Most of us in the GW2 community like that a player has to actually engage in content to get rewards.

 

Anyone that has experience with MMO's should be aware that knowing which gear to wear and which keys activate which skills is essential to success.  Even if a new player doesn't somehow realize that a 10 year old game will probably have a lot of player made resources just one internet search on 'game+mode+build' will yield several results. If people cannot handle basic searches for whatever reason then maybe a this game is not a good fit, because it only gets more complicated.  And I reiterate drastically nerfing open world for a minority of players is terrible game/business design.

[solemn.9608]

There are so many builds in this game that can make open world PvE an absolute joke 😭 just YouTube "best open world build gw2" and you'll find like 20 right off the bat, you do not need to be remotely good at the game to do PvE as-is. How much hand holding do some ppl need?

There are literally builds in this game where you can just hold 1 and things die with ease i.e. flamethrower scrapper. 

If that's too challenging play RuneScape

Edited June 1, 2022 by solemn.9608

[ArchonWing.9480]

20 minutes ago, solemn.9608 said:

There are so many builds in this game that can make open world PvE an absolute joke 😭 just YouTube "best open world build gw2" and you'll find like 20 right off the bat, you do not need to be remotely good at the game to do PvE as-is. How much hand holding do some ppl need?

There are literally builds in this game where you can just hold 1 and things die with ease i.e. flamethrower scrapper. 

If that's too challenging play RuneScape

There's more to pve than just Open World though. And as seem from some recent metas, this isn't true either. Have you tried the map metas in EoD? They're not like super hard but they're not exactly fall asleep at the wheel anymore. There are mechanics that will simply kill your character (not down) if you ignore them.

Edited June 1, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[solemn.9608]

8 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

There's more to pve than just Open World though. And as seem from some recent metas, this isn't true either. Have you tried the map metas in EoD? They're not like super hard but they're not exactly fall asleep at the wheel anymore. There are mechanics that will simply kill your character (not down) if you ignore them.

Yeah but why even play a game with these mechanics if someone can't handle them? Isn't that what most of us came here for?

 

This just reminds me of how early university/college students speak these days/some of the guys I met when I was in school - "you mean I'm supposed to pay attention and learn things? UGHHH that's like, totally inconvenient man, I don't want to~"

 

They advertise this game as being more friendly to casual players, not "impossible to lose! Challenges are oppression!"

[captrowdy.9561]

On 3/3/2022 at 9:09 PM, wmtyrance.3571 said:

Yeah try ESO in regular gear instead of legendary. If ESO is so wrong then why is it's player base bigger than GW2. It's a known fact that the people that say ESO is so easy are the same meta type players that are here. They are the reason GW2 is struggling to keep new players. ESO caters to both the casual and meta players. The meta players have the raids and dungeon content. The overland content is for the real TES players that like to quest and explore. The overland content has the meta player complaining that its not catered to them. The meta player get the best gear in the game from the group content. Then they complain that the overland content is to easy.

Eso has the players because it’s elder scrolls. A common complaint when I was playing was how open world combat was a joke

[BlueJin.4127]

Having recently helped an alliance member through Winds of Change HM in GW1, this thread is resonating quite a bit.

WoC HM is elite level content in GW1. As somebody who has done WoC HM on 20+ characters with only heroes and no cons, I'm pretty experienced at WoC HM. The alliance member I was helping through WoC HM is old and not skilled at the game. She was stuck on one of the WoC HM quests for years on her ritualist, so I helped her through the quest and the rest of the WoC HM quests since I was already progressing through them on some of my characters. After her ritualist, I helped her necromancer through WoC HM from beginning to end. This is where I learned the importance of more low intensity builds in the game for all professions.

For players who are not familiar with GW1, ritualists have a build where the AI basically auto plays the game for the player. You cast Signet of Spirits and some other spirits and they'll automatically attack random enemies. As one might except from an AI controlled build, this SoS build is not very useful for high difficulty contents since spirits can't prioritize important targets (spirits attack random enemies for the most part) and also lack AOE burst. Still, their high damage and auto play means that even players with low skill can at least do some damage. More importantly, since I was using an assassin, I asked her to take a spell called Splinter Weapon (an excellent AOE burst if you have a good martial player in the team) and spam it on me (which is very easy to do). This allowed her to contribute enough that I didn't feel like I was carrying her.

For her necromancer, though, it was a totally different story. Necromancers can do amazing DPS in PVE, but all their best builds require extensive knowledge of enemies you're facing, or some degree of skill, so she had very limited options for low intensity builds that she wanted to play and could contribute with (aside from imitating a ritualist). For her build, not only was she carrying awful skills like Life Transfer and Healing Breeze, the enemies we were fighting had counters to these skills that resulted in more damage against our melee (I was progressing on my warrior). She was actually doing more harm to our party than contributing. It took a lot of explanations and convincing, but I was finally able to convincer her to an average build that is easy to use that she enjoyed playing. Unfortunately, she had trouble playing even that build, and it was quite stressful taking her through WoC HM because she contributed almost nothing and was very resistant to changing her builds. If she had access to more low intensity builds that could contribute and was fun for her to use, it certainly would have been easier.

While some may argue that low skilled players have no business being in elite level contents, helping players through harder contents is part of co-op games, and it is what some players in game communities do. If there are more options for low intensity builds that can contribute, it would certainly make things easier for everyone and also create a lot less drama.

Edited June 7, 2022 by BlueJin.4127

[ArchonWing.9480]

12 minutes ago, solemn.9608 said:

Yeah but why even play a game with these mechanics if someone can't handle them? Isn't that what most of us came here for?

 

This just reminds me of how early university/college students speak these days/some of the guys I met when I was in school - "you mean I'm supposed to pay attention and learn things? UGHHH that's like, totally inconvenient man, I don't want to~"

 

They advertise this game as being more friendly to casual players, not "impossible to lose! Challenges are oppression!"

You said open world is an absolute joke and you can find a random Youtube build that does it easy. That's true for a lot of it but I'm saying there's more to PvE than just Open World and that's what everyone else is talking about, as well as EoD approaching it a bit more differently.

Most Youtubers are going to suggest some kind of sustain build that works great for facerolling random mobs but when you have instakill things, they're going to be completely useless.

So what you are saying is true. But it's also not very helpful to your average player.

Edited June 1, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[Ashen.2907]

You can do something at leasr similar to over gearing and over  leveling content in GW2. Just having a level 80 with a full build means that you, even if downleveled in a given bit of content, are more powerful than the lower level content was designed for. If you are using exotics you are overgeared for most content as well.

The bit about just autoattacking in open world and doing, "fine," very much depends on how you define fine.  Ive done it. Builds can be readily constructed to center around buffing your autoattack to great effect. Ive even done the open world without armor challenge. 

 

And the "massive" in MMO is a reference to numbers of players, not their diversity or any other attempt at revisionism.

Edited June 1, 2022 by Ashen.2907

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, standardFoe.2983 said:

Seriously the idea that 'most players' in GW2 are so brain-dead and incapable of basic research into a decade old game is quite offensive to me. 

And the idea that completely normal players playing in a completely normal way that is just different than the one you play can be called "brain dead" is quite offensive to me.

 

 

[Gorem.8104]

2 hours ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

 

Because there are people like me who raid and love open world content. I WISH the OW content is not braindead as it is now and I hope there are interesting rewards addedd as well. The issue with keeping OW forever easy that you can do literally anything you want is that is not fun for the people who do try. This is especially grievous in GW2 because the difference between a bad build and an optimized build can be 10x the difference. GW2 by design is not an easy game  for people to faceroll due to the amount of different ways that you can screw up your character compare to a game like FF14 where you have literally no customization so the margin is much smaller. You don't want players to feel practically all OW is so boring that it doesn't feel worth playing. I don't have fun facerolling through content and I imagine I am not the only one. This is why I ask for harder OW content and I wish people would get better in general so we can all experience it together. 

 

You sound like you should be playing a different game. Maybe try Elden ring? You think WoW would have hit as millions of players as it did if the first mob you fought outside of the gate killed you each time till you got so good at the game to get past it as you treated all of OW content as a dark souls boss? Catering to casuals is how mmo's exist today, its their only way to survive, one of the reasons WoW started to die was because they stopped doing that. When they took flight out of WoD it was the final straw for a lot of people. 

Open world content is not meant to be the hardest content a game has to offer. That stuff should always be instanced. If GW2 went that route 5 years ago none of us would even be having this conversation now cause the game would be shut down. Open world is meant to be for the casuals who don't look up guides or use any research, they are here just to have fun and enjoy a game as an entertainment medium. The moment you look up a build or even use these forums, you pretty much lose that tag. 
When things get tough, they seek help or join a commander already running.
When I needed bounties I tagged up and had people join who didn't say a word, hardly did anything for the fight but still enjoyed themselves as we helped them get their bounties done. OW content is not meant to be for the elitist, its meant to be for everyone. Including those who can't help themselves. 

[yoni.7015]

8 minutes ago, Gorem.8104 said:

Open world content is not meant to be the hardest content a game has to offer. That stuff should always be instanced. If GW2 went that route 5 years ago none of us would even be having this conversation now cause the game would be shut down. Open world is meant to be for the casuals who don't look up guides or use any research, they are here just to have fun and enjoy a game as an entertainment medium. The moment you look up a build or even use these forums, you pretty much lose that tag. 
When things get tough, they seek help or join a commander already running.
When I needed bounties I tagged up and had people join who didn't say a word, hardly did anything for the fight but still enjoyed themselves as we helped them get their bounties done. OW content is not meant to be for the elitist, its meant to be for everyone. Including those who can't help themselves. 

Open World is not the hardest content and it still is for casuals and it’s pretty easy, even in EoD. 

[Warscythes.9307]

18 minutes ago, Gorem.8104 said:

 

You sound like you should be playing a different game. Maybe try Elden ring? You think WoW would have hit as millions of players as it did if the first mob you fought outside of the gate killed you each time till you got so good at the game to get past it as you treated all of OW content as a dark souls boss? Catering to casuals is how mmo's exist today, its their only way to survive, one of the reasons WoW started to die was because they stopped doing that. When they took flight out of WoD it was the final straw for a lot of people. 

Open world content is not meant to be the hardest content a game has to offer. That stuff should always be instanced. If GW2 went that route 5 years ago none of us would even be having this conversation now cause the game would be shut down. Open world is meant to be for the casuals who don't look up guides or use any research, they are here just to have fun and enjoy a game as an entertainment medium. The moment you look up a build or even use these forums, you pretty much lose that tag. 
When things get tough, they seek help or join a commander already running.
When I needed bounties I tagged up and had people join who didn't say a word, hardly did anything for the fight but still enjoyed themselves as we helped them get their bounties done. OW content is not meant to be for the elitist, its meant to be for everyone. Including those who can't help themselves. 

You do realize there is a huge difference between current GW2 OW to Dark Souls? I am not asking for the entire OW to be raid content, I am asking for it to be harder and there are degrees of difficulty that they can tune. Where did I say that monsters need to be so hard that need to be dark souls? I absolutely agree that OW should be the easiest content IN GENERAL. Even raids have difficulties. Not everything is Li CM tier, it obviously make sense for OW to have easier and  harder difficulties especially as the game matures. 

Catering to casuals is one thing, however there are definitely mmo that do not and they work fine. Let's look at a recent example, Lost Ark. Is not a new game and it runs just fine ignoring the bots. Would you call it a casual game? Not particularly right. It has plenty of customization and builds. The open world is literally braindead but to progress at an acceptable pace you need to do legion raids unless all you want to do it swipe all day. They work just fine, the difference is that they structured their content difficulty wise that people can learn and progress. Please stop with this that only catering to casual is how MMO survive. That is just ridiculous. If you want to give the hyperbole about 5 years then I will give you mine. If they introduced content that can be both challenging and rewarding instead of nothing but LS for years, then GW2 would be on par with FF14 today. Instead it is just limping along when it could be much greater than what it is now because it failed to carve out its audience, even worse it completely disregards some of its greatest strength that being combat design. It is completely wasted.

Edited June 1, 2022 by Warscythes.9307

[Warscythes.9307]

40 minutes ago, Gorem.8104 said:

Open world is meant to be for the casuals who don't look up guides or use any research, they are here just to have fun and enjoy a game as an entertainment medium. The moment you look up a build or even use these forums, you pretty much lose that tag. 
When things get tough, they seek help or join a commander already running.
When I needed bounties I tagged up and had people join who didn't say a word, hardly did anything for the fight but still enjoyed themselves as we helped them get their bounties done. OW content is not meant to be for the elitist, its meant to be for everyone. Including those who can't help themselves. 

 

 

I actually want to contest this and give a hotter take.

 

GW2 is at its foundation does not support this because of the amount of customization the game has and the way is game is designed. You CANNOT run around with a random build and randomly put up gear and still expect to perform average. The difference between a player who knows what they are doing and somebody who does not is absolutely massive. So what happens then is that you either alienate players like me who knows how the game works and find most content incredibly boring. Or you make harder content that kitten off the more casual players. This is why I want people to get better in general by helping them with tutorial and content difficulty scaling that make sense, because is not like you can make people get worse.

This is what my biggest issue as well. Anet stemming from GW1 made a game with strong combat system and character build customization. The game is hard for a MMO, not dark souls hard but at its absolute core it is not an easy game. What's the point of having a good combat system and builds if the idea of the players should be picking literally anything they want and faceroll the majority of the content? Why are they building nothing but easy content for a what should be a more difficult game by design? Is like fromsoftware made dark souls engine....then made a game based on it that's nothing but faceroll. Wouldn't you think that is weird?

Edited June 1, 2022 by Warscythes.9307

[Luci.7018]

10 hours ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

 If they introduced content that can be both challenging and rewarding instead of nothing but LS for years, then GW2 would be on par with FF14 today. Instead it is just limping along when it could be much greater than what it is now because it failed to carve out its audience, even worse it completely disregards some of its greatest strength that being combat design. It is completely wasted.

Should they also  introduce an auto-LFG like FF14 or WoW , but rather than TANK/heal/dps , it will be Quickness/Alacrity/Dps?

Edited June 1, 2022 by Luci.7018

[Warscythes.9307]

5 minutes ago, Luci.7018 said:

Should they also  introduce an auto-LFG like FF14 or WoW , but rather than TANK/heal/dps , it will be Quickness/Alacrity/Dps?

Almost impossible because how do you enforce it?

 

In FF14/WoW, at the very baseline you can expect a tank to have tank skills, healers that can heal and dps have dps skills.

 

How do you enforce quickness for example here? Does the character need to have X boon duration? Does it need to check for that specific trait that generate quickness and make sure it is on? Now imagine doing this for every single class/spec/build and then add in balance patch change things. What if LFG require 50 boon duration but balance patch changed some things and now you only really need 20 after some community testing? You can't force a player to play a worse build just to get in LFG right. That sound ridiculous.

The only thing that I can think of is some sort of "test" and once you pass it you are golden for each role. I imagine that will be met with a great amount of outcry. If you got a better idea then let them know because people have brought this up before and nobody got a good solution.

Edited June 1, 2022 by Warscythes.9307

[Luci.7018]

10 hours ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

Almost impossible because how do you enforce it?

 

In FF14/WoW, at the very baseline you can expect a tank to have tank skills, healers that can heal and dps have dps skills.

 

How do you enforce quickness for example here? Does the character need to have X boon duration? Does it need to check for that specific trait that generate quickness and make sure it is on? Now imagine doing this for every single class/spec/build and then add in balance patch change things. What if LFG require 50 boon duration but balance patch changed some things and now you only really need 20 after some community testing? 

They have a system like in pvp , that tracks your stats .

It can tracks your Boon duration and if it's less than 50% every 3 min  , it will kick you.

The details are easy , how about the FF14 auto-LFG ?

Edited June 1, 2022 by Luci.7018

[Warscythes.9307]

1 minute ago, Luci.7018 said:

They have a system like in pvp , that tracks your stats .

It can tracks your Boon duration and if it's less than 50% every 3 min  , it will kick you

 

What if 50% is not the requirement anymore after a change? Who decide that 50% is the number? You might be able to keep track for this in a small number of builds but with the amount of variety there is, I don't think this possible for them to keep track on all of them.

Edited June 1, 2022 by Warscythes.9307

[Luci.7018]

10 hours ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

 

What if 50% is not the requirement anymore after a change? Who decide that 50% is the number? You might be able to keep track for this in a small number of builds but with the amount of variety there is, I don't think this possible for them to keep track on all of them.

What change ?

Lets make it 40% now . Whatever arc-dps can track , the company can track too

Don't you think hardcore stuff + auto-LFG like FF14 will be beneficial for the game ?

Edited June 1, 2022 by Luci.7018

[Warscythes.9307]

5 minutes ago, Luci.7018 said:

What change ?

Lets make it 40% now

Don't you think hardcore stuff + auto-LFG like FF14 will be beneficial for the game ?

Balance notes change. What if there is a patch that lowered the cd on some skill/trait icd for one specific spec that made you need less boon duration than before? Who is going to set the initial boon duration requirement anyway? Are you going to force players to play a worse build so they can lfg? Do you really trust anet will be able to keep track of all this? Ignoring boons even, how do you enforce dps players? Make sure they have XZY power/precision/ferocity and using certain weapons?

 

I think scaling harder content and lfg will help, not make everything hardcore but going from core to hot to pof to eod should have progressively challenging content as people adjust and learn.  However I think that is only one part of the issue. Right now the game does have challenging content but it is not being played because the reward is absolutely garbage. This stem from the game's horizontal progression systems and this issue I think is as difficult if not more difficult to solve than the topic we are discussing at the moment. 

Edited June 1, 2022 by Warscythes.9307

[Luci.7018]

10 hours ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

Balance notes change. What if there is a patch that lowered the cd on some skill/trait icd for one specific spec that made you need less boon duration than before? Who is going to set the initial boon duration requirement anyway? Are you going to force players to play a worse build so they can lfg? Do you really trust anet will be able to keep track of all this? Ignoring boons even, how do you enforce dps players? Make sure they have XZY power/precision/ferocity and using certain weapons?

 

I think scaling harder content and lfg will help, not make everything hardcore but going from core to hot to pof to eod should have progressively challenging content as people adjust and learn.  However I think that is only one part of the issue. Right now the game does have challenging content but it is not being played because the reward is absolutely garbage. This stem from the game's horizontal progression systems and this issue I think is as difficult if not more difficult to solve than the topic we are discussing at the moment. 

Auto -LFG is an other crucial  thing thought . But people somewhat avoid it , while they mention the other games..

But if you are cool , ok then

[Astralporing.1957]

32 minutes ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

I actually want to contest this and give a hotter take.

 

GW2 is at its foundation does not support this because of the amount of customization the game has and the way is game is designed. You CANNOT run around with a random build and randomly put up gear and still expect to perform average. The difference between a player who knows what they are doing and somebody who does not is absolutely massive. So what happens then is that you either alienate players like me who knows how the game works and find most content incredibly boring. Or you make harder content that kitten off the more casual players. This is why I want people to get better in general by helping them with tutorial and content difficulty scaling that make sense, because is not like you can make people get worse.

This is what my biggest issue as well. Anet stemming from GW1 made a game with strong combat system and character build customization. The game is hard for a MMO, not dark souls hard but at its absolute core it is not an easy game. What's the point of having a good combat system and builds if the idea of the players should be picking literally anything they want and faceroll the majority of the content? Why are they building nothing but easy content for a what should be a more difficult game by design? Is like fromsoftware made dark souls engine....then made a game based on it that's nothing but faceroll. Wouldn't you think that is weird?

Yes. You're completely right. Anet made a MMORPG with core systems designed for the more hardcore players. And only for them. Then they marketed it for and sold it to a mostly casual crowd. That dissonance is the primary issue of all the problems we have now. They made a mistake in designing the game for a very niche and small community, then sold it to the masses that can neither appreciate those systems nor use them well.

Problem is, they cannot really change their playerbase now. The existing players simply won't adjust to the systems, and if forced, they will just leave. Neither can they replace those "bad" players with "good" ones, because first, changing target groups is always risky (there's no guarantee that changes that made part of your playerbase go away will bring other players to you even if you aim at target groups of similar size), and, second, because casuals on MMO market massively outnumber hardcores, so the idea of replacing the former with the latter will always end up with overall population loss. This game is not in so good situation it could afford a significant drop in playerbase without a danger of NCSoft overlords deciding to pull the plug.

Neither can they change the game systems at this point - they are way too core to the whole game. They might as well make GW3 instead.

That is why some solutions to let more casual players sidestep the issue by giving them something that would let them ignore the whole system at least to a certain degree (i.e. by offering them easy-to-select low intensity builds) and thus close the gap towards the top to some degree are so important.

 

[Gehenna.3625]

4 hours ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

 

Because there are people like me who raid and love open world content. I WISH the OW content is not braindead as it is now and I hope there are interesting rewards addedd as well. The issue with keeping OW forever easy that you can do literally anything you want is that is not fun for the people who do try. This is especially grievous in GW2 because the difference between a bad build and an optimized build can be 10x the difference. GW2 by design is not an easy game  for people to faceroll due to the amount of different ways that you can screw up your character compare to a game like FF14 where you have literally no customization so the margin is much smaller. You don't want players to feel practically all OW is so boring that it doesn't feel worth playing. I don't have fun facerolling through content and I imagine I am not the only one. This is why I ask for harder OW content and I wish people would get better in general so we can all experience it together. 

I get that but they've tried before a few times in OW and those meta's are dead. Why it's beyond me, is not why they would do it but that they keep trying and failing every time. And the reason why it fails is always the same: there's not enough interest for it to be viable. 

In other words, you are in a minority that is small enough that these types of meta's are not viable. And remember, this game started without raids and was meant for casuals to begin with. They've added some raids in the meantime but not a whole lot. And I bet you won't see anymore raids being added. That's what strikes are supposed to replace, at least the CMs. 

I suspect that what Anet was hoping, is that more people would catch on to the normal strikes, but I'm not convinced they've been successful with that either. And that too is because of the same reason. I hope you like CM strikes because it seems to me that that's what you're gonna get instead of raids.

The thing is that the combat system is too complex for most of the content of this game and the player base therefore is largely fine with pressing 1,1,1,6,111. The game allows this, it enables this and that's what attracted a lot of players and that's the main player base I guess.

OW will forever stay easy, with an occasional attempt at something harder and that something will then be abandoned after a while. Why? Because the vast majority of the player base wants it to be that way and Anet wouldn't dare chase too many of their customers away. It's quite a balancing act for them, mind you. I think they're really trying to find a happy medium, but I don't think there is such a thing as a happy medium between raiders and casual 1,1,1 players. And unfortunately (for you) there's a lot more of them than there is of you. Your wish of people getting better, in other words, is not a wish but wishful thinking. Why would they accommodate you by playing in a way that's not fun for them?

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Anet made a MMORPG with core systems designed for the more hardcore players. And only for them.

That's... just false. What's so "hardcore" here? Reading the descriptions?

Edited June 1, 2022 by Sobx.1758