Catalyst is garbage in WVW

[scerevisiae.1972]

Hammer is absolute hot garbage in WVW - 2/3rd melee skills, only 6 short-range skills, all of them weak and small AOEs. Compare with e.g. scavenger burst on vindicator - this is a near-spammable, cheap 240 radius 900 range AOE on a 3sec CD. Just one of several good ranged skills on Vindicator when Rev already has multiple good WVW specs.

suggested solution: make Hammer earth #5, fire #5, and water #1 skills 600 range cone AOEs, make fire #4 radii 240 not 180, widen angle of fire #2.

 

Staff catalyst is core Ele with an additional field and 2x meteor storms. Problem is a single weaver meteor storm outperforms 2x meteor storms because of multipliers, plus weaver's dual attacks. Other augments are really weak to the point of not being remotely competitive with core ele options, let alone stances. Staff catalyst falls well short of staff weaver as a benchmark.

suggested solution: unnerf the coefficient on water augment to not be garbage in WVW. Fixing hammer though to be playabl;e in WVW is probably overall the better option.  

 

Dagger catalyst has the most synergy with catalyst because of dagger's auras but it still feels exactly like core Ele with a field. Again, augments and traits do not change the playstyle AT ALL.

suggested solution: water augment change above; dagger catalyst probably doesn't need changes. It's prob fine for those who haven't already been playing D/D since release and were hoping for something new to play. 

 

Overall as a WVW player, catalyst is really hot garbage in WVW and I'm super disappointed/angry that the design team completely disregarded WVW when working on Catalyst. Especially hammer whose only apparent niche is static raid golems/bosses. Unlike untamed, prob the other worst spec in EOD, untamed has a lot of potential, it's just clunky to play. Hammer OTOH has no potential to be anything other than a raiding weapon, where it will push out marginalise Sword further. It's just horrible design, pls fix. 

[giblets.6401]

This was called out during the betas multiple times months and months ago but no changes were made. I don't think they care what players think. 

[Loke.1429]

guardian, engi, necro bias, some other specs gotta suffer

[schloumou.3982]

53 minutes ago, Loke.1429 said:

engi

lol

[Avatara.1042]

Yeah.  Hammer has no survivability, as well.

[Flori.2194]

2 hours ago, schloumou.3982 said:

lol

engis and hfbs are the backbone if each zerg, but true, it took a while for scrapper to be in this place

[Jski.6180]

Its just odd that catalyses has no real build in def effects. It needs a better way of getting barrier maybe barrier on auras or healing on comboing.

[Infusion.7149]

I'm not sure why you think having a small AoE is a problem in WVW as it rewards proper targeting as opposed to spamming AoEs all over. If you look at down contribution rather than damage out it will produce a more accurate picture. 180 radius is on par with guardian symbols as well as lava font, therefore that isn't the true issue. The issue is primarily of the ranged auto attacks being 600 range as well as the air and fire attunements not having appreciable damage splits in compared to staff which has cleaving or bouncing autos. In addition, surging flames isn't even an AOE technically it is more of a fan attack.
Triple Sear's listed damage is per hit, up to 3 hits if you position it right and it was greatly improved in the last beta to be easier to hit three times. Reverting it to 240 radius effectively lowers the damage by well targeting players.

There's several quick fixes to this including making fire auto piercing for example , making air auto a 130 or 180 radius AOE or piercing since it is a "wind slam" attack even if it has a projectile-like animation, and increasing range to 900 which makes it have the same reach as necro wells, necro axe/scepter, inspiring reinforcement on heralds, shortbow on renegade in general (even meme players running kalla have 900 range since 360 radius + 600 range is effectively 900), sword of justice, as well as guardian scepter. At 600 range the hammer is effectively melee in WVW since we are in a superspeed meta with CoR/Phase Smash at 1200 range and bulk of range damage otherwise being in 900 range. The air auto speed ought to be sped up at a minimum, I did the math on this and testing after last beta and effectively it is worse than auto on staff in fire attunement.

Melee damage isn't the problem overall even if Rain of Blows could probably be unsplit especially due to being 3 targets, the hammer orbs have similar efficacy to Vengeful Hammers which is one of the main damage sources of herald in WVW when in melee. Ground Pound feels as though it could be ranged to help with sticking to a target if hammer is meant as a slow low mobility weapon, see guardian hammer (ranged immob), warrior hammer (ranged cripple), or scrapper hammer (Thunderclap is ranged).

As bleeding is more or less useless in WVW I'd rather have cripple on earth hammer orb (Rocky loop), with bleeding relocated to the autoattack to ensure bleeding output at all times on every earth attunement offensive skill. Earth actually has decent auto damage and the change to have projectile block on whirling stones along with a cast time reduction means it is not in dire need of changes. Because earth actually is functional power damage, unlike other weapons in WVW staying in earth is not as poor an idea.

Jade sphere has 15s cooldown in competitive modes with no damage at all. It solely acts as a field and boon output.

Utilities-wise I'd like to see Invigorating air remove immob. It's on a similar cooldown to Eye of the Storm on tempest but worse because it doesn't AoE stunbreak or superspeed. Elemental celerity is unlikely to be run outside of a double meteor niche.

TL;DR: 900 range is superior than 600 range especially in current meta.

Edited March 4, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Downstate.4697]

Thats because wvw players havent realized the true meta of full celestial comps

[fuzzyp.6295]

I tried roaming a bit for the first with Hammer cata. It definitely needs work but potential is there, I might need to theory craft a bit more. I did notice that conditions are killer, outside of the heal the only way to really cure condis is Smoothering Aura. Its not bad but too slow, especially with harbingers and that elite of theirs all over the place.

 

Will have to try out more armor and runes but it wasnt too bad, I was successfully holding off most 2v1s.. although not able to win yet. I only spent a few hours tho need more time to figure out things.

[Shiyo.3578]

WvW is garbage as well.

The biggest "FU" to me is the fact air 2 has a 3 target cap in ALL GAME MODES.  A long channeled ability that only hits 3 targets? Wtf were they thinking?

Edited March 4, 2022 by Shiyo.3578

[Junkpile.7439]

Played staff catalyst and didn't really understand what is the point of those fields. 😄

[AzuritaBlues.3206]

I don't understand why all the spheres don't do damage in WvW, 0.1 coefficient is a joke and could be rebalanced according to the sphere attunement. At least the fire sphere should have normal coefficients.

Catalyst could be a lot better in zerg scenarios if we could use the sphere offensively. It's already 15sec cooldown, we can't generate energy while them are deployed and we have to commit to concentration gear + the whole bottom traitline to generate the boons/energy properly (while the pulsing boons require your subsquad to stand still in the field) and even then we still can't compete with scrappers.

besides that, fresh air and d/d cata are nice options for roaming, while tempest is still a better support and staff weaver is better in zerg fights

[Winchester Smythe Anus III.2153]

On 3/5/2022 at 9:57 AM, talesbfftt.4596 said:

I don't understand why all the spheres don't do damage in WvW, 0.1 coefficient is a joke 

Kinda doesn't matter cause hammer is unusable in WVW by design.

As if you would design a PVE-only weapon when Sword already solidly fills this space. 

[lLobo.7960]

The only way to play catalyst in WvW at this stage is with dagger/dagger and using auras to try to survive in the middle of the zerg... 

Spheres are only good for buffing before fights, or helping with combos (to get more aura buffs)... if that.

[pallas.8150]

Catalyst is garbage. You didn't even need to proceed after the first part of that statement. WvW, PvE, PvP - all garbage.

[AzuritaBlues.3206]

23 hours ago, Winchester Smythe Anus III.2153 said:

Kinda doesn't matter cause hammer is unusable in WVW by design.

As if you would design a PVE-only weapon when Sword already solidly fills this space. 

hammer is not the only weapon avaliable to catalyst, the sphere damage would improve staff catalyst efficiency in zergs.

also, sword is not a PvE-only weapon

 

 

[Avatara.1042]

The Hammer is most of the Catalyst's identity, though.  Take it away, and you have a 15 second cooldown field which hits for 5 damage.

Edited March 10, 2022 by Avatara.1042

[Infusion.7149]

jade sphere does near zero damage  in WVW (0.01 coefficient) and comes with 15s cooldown

[Jski.6180]

10 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

jade sphere does near zero damage  in WVW (0.01 coefficient) and comes with 15s cooldown

As long as it can crit the dmg is not that important but the lack of condis or soft cc from jade sphere is a problem due to the lack of the effect not being movable at all. Wvw is a lot of movement and effects that dont realty keep up or simply dont movie often becomes pointless. If you can say hold a person in your F5 it would help. Though i would like to see a way to mod the effect of the F5 to just simply stay on you but lose the ability to have more then one version out at a time and have it changes base off your atument like the old version did but say with an lower energy cost and or no cost at all.

[Infusion.7149]

50 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

As long as it can crit the dmg is not that important but the lack of condis or soft cc from jade sphere is a problem due to the lack of the effect not being movable at all. Wvw is a lot of movement and effects that dont realty keep up or simply dont movie often becomes pointless. If you can say hold a person in your F5 it would help. Though i would like to see a way to mod the effect of the F5 to just simply stay on you but lose the ability to have more then one version out at a time and have it changes base off your atument like the old version did but say with an lower energy cost and or no cost at all.

That makes zero sense at all. How is criting for 5 damage for example helpful at all? Unless you plan on knocking people out of stealth at jade sphere range and giving up any boons you would have on that sphere for 15s , it is completely useless when cast on the enemy.

5s duration is about as long as wells on necro or any symbols on guardian. It isn't the issue whatsoever. If you run the split trait Sphere specialist you get 7s duration on boons only (not the field itself , which remains 5s) so with 100% Boon duration you still don't have 100% uptime even in theory unless you also run arcane because you don't have easy access to alacrity in WVW.

Mind you if you plan on running minstrel for boon duration (65% or so with monk rune) because harrier is not a possibility in WVW, you have no damage whatsoever and your auras don't heal. You'd be relying on blasting fields and/or staff auto attack.

The moment you make it a movable field then it becomes the same as an overload.

[Jski.6180]

10 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

That makes zero sense at all. How is criting for 5 damage for example helpful at all? Unless you plan on knocking people out of stealth at jade sphere range and giving up any boons you would have on that sphere for 15s , it is completely useless when cast on the enemy.

5s duration is about as long as wells on necro or any symbols on guardian. It isn't the issue whatsoever. If you run the split trait Sphere specialist you get 7s duration on boons only (not the field itself , which remains 5s) so with 100% Boon duration you still don't have 100% uptime even in theory unless you also run arcane because you don't have easy access to alacrity in WVW.

Mind you if you plan on running minstrel for boon duration (65% or so with monk rune) because harrier is not a possibility in WVW, you have no damage whatsoever and your auras don't heal. You'd be relying on blasting fields and/or staff auto attack.

The moment you make it a movable field then it becomes the same as an overload.

The ideal is to trigger on crit effects such as fresh air or even a condi effect or sigil on cirt effects. It lets you go lower crit % rate as you have more means of fishing for a crit. That why you need to have condi effects on the F5 to trigger other effects.

The issues is an week boon applying effect not moving with the ele. If your F5 is only giveing 1 sec of an boon its just not worth it most of the time if your only in it for just 1 tick. You DONT stand still in wvw lol.

If your going boon duration you maybe better off using Diviner's mix with marders to go more of an boon support dps with say unblockable effects (i person would want to go arcan roots but that just me).

Overload only has 1 active field during the overload and only 2 fields after the overload is used (not movable after use). Its a real let down that anet did not go back and give fields the water earth and air during there overloads and water and earth for after there overload.

[Infusion.7149]

22 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

The ideal is to trigger on crit effects such as fresh air or even a condi effect or sigil on cirt effects. It lets you go lower crit % rate as you have more means of fishing for a crit. That why you need to have condi effects on the F5 to trigger other effects.

The issues is an week boon applying effect not moving with the ele. If your F5 is only giveing 1 sec of an boon its just not worth it most of the time if your only in it for just 1 tick. You DONT stand still in wvw lol.

If your going boon duration you maybe better off using Diviner's mix with marders to go more of an boon support dps with say unblockable effects (i person would want to go arcan roots but that just me).

Overload only has 1 active field during the overload and only 2 fields after the overload is used (not movable after use). Its a real let down that anet did not go back and give fields the water earth and air during there overloads and water and earth for after there overload.

How does an approximately 600 range field available every 15s help you? On crit traits are meaningless because unlike in PVE you won't be able to use the air Jade Sphere often enough to capitalize on fresh air. The "on crit" such as Burning Precision and Arcane Precision traits have an internal cooldown and conditions are not an effective source of damage in WVW. Most on crit sigils are also for condition application. If you're using heal on crit, you're better off healing with a hybrid tempest of some sort instead of going through that sort of shenanigans.

You're probably confusing the 7% crit chance from crescent wind (hammer 3 orb on air). That has nothing to do with jade sphere whatsover.

The primary use of the field would be to drop it on any melee DPS when using a well bomb/ symbol drop or melee push. A lightning field combos with leaps and other finishers on melee classes for additional CC (which compounds the effectiveness of spellbreakers). Coincidentally common ranged damage sources are also 4-5s duration (including lava font on staff), so this idea that "you don't stand still in WVW" is not reflective of what happens in a coordinated push of melee and ranged. People move but you are giving offensive boons to whoever moves over it much like when you use symbol of swiftness on guardian midfight or nullfield on chrono. None of this technically contends with a fresh air aura tempest which would be able to put out far more lightning fields as well as shock aura (which is mobile) which is precisely why it isn't a strong option in WVW.

If the Jade Sphere had 5s recharge as in PVE you'd still have a problem fitting this in as firebrand guardian and heal scrapper already output quickness and don't have to jump through all these things just to do it. You have lightning fields from Inspiring Reinforcement/Bulwark gyro/Thunderclap as well as Winds of Disenchantment.

A 900 range cleaving and/or piercing hammer on air/fire would do far more for the spec than any 600 range cone AOE or any change to jade sphere.
 

Edited March 11, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Jski.6180]

11 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

How does an approximately 600 range field available every 15s help you? On crit traits are meaningless because unlike in PVE you won't be able to use the air Jade Sphere often enough to capitalize on fresh air. The "on crit" such as Burning Precision and Arcane Precision traits have an internal cooldown and conditions are not an effective source of damage in WVW. Most on crit sigils are also for condition application. If you're using heal on crit, you're better off healing with a hybrid tempest of some sort instead of going through that sort of shenanigans.

You're probably confusing the 7% crit chance from crescent wind (hammer 3 orb on air). That has nothing to do with jade sphere whatsover.

The primary use of the field would be to drop it on any melee DPS when using a well bomb/ symbol drop or melee push. A lightning field combos with leaps and other finishers on melee classes for additional CC (which compounds the effectiveness of spellbreakers). Coincidentally common ranged damage sources are also 4-5s duration (including lava font on staff), so this idea that "you don't stand still in WVW" is not reflective of what happens in a coordinated push of melee and ranged. People move but you are giving offensive boons to whoever moves over it much like when you use symbol of swiftness on guardian midfight or nullfield on chrono. None of this technically contends with a fresh air aura tempest which would be able to put out far more lightning fields as well as shock aura (which is mobile) which is precisely why it isn't a strong option in WVW.

If the Jade Sphere had 5s recharge as in PVE you'd still have a problem fitting this in as firebrand guardian and heal scrapper already output quickness and don't have to jump through all these things just to do it. You have lightning fields from Inspiring Reinforcement/Bulwark gyro/Thunderclap as well as Winds of Disenchantment.

A 900 range cleaving and/or piercing hammer on air/fire would do far more for the spec than any 600 range cone AOE or any change to jade sphere.
 

The cd is base off of your atument (unless that was changed) so you get 4 15 sec cd skills for crits (and roots). There also no cast time and you can use them during your own casting.

The fact that the orbs give buffs means they are going to be the first thing on the chopping block for dmg nerfs keep that in mind. There is no way orbs dps will last and make the class "viable" in any game type let alone wvw.

You should drop the f5 where you think your team going to be for a prolong fight and its very important which F5 your drooping. In a ranged bomb you want to use air for the quickness and fury. In an melee push you want the earth for proteciton and resiscates as well as "roots" from earth arcain power effect. Water will be for purly blasting of an water field ppl dont do it often but they still do it (sad state of the game indeed). Fire works like air but worst.

F5 even in pve is not good there too many perma effects with out the need of using energy that you cant get during the F5 effect. The balancing for ele is so badly done right now and its all on anet and no one else.

Hammer and catalyses needs to be more "dagger/dagger ele" like but with more aimed on combos. So more movement base dps even if its ranged dps. Where your skills always keep you moving and attking at the same time kind of like what you see from action combat games teara is an good example of this or Monster hunter (rewarding moving out of an attk with an attk.)

[Infusion.7149]

4 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

The cd is base off of your atument (unless that was changed) so you get 4 15 sec cd skills for crits (and roots). There also no cast time and you can use them during your own casting.

The fact that the orbs give buffs means they are going to be the first thing on the chopping block for dmg nerfs keep that in mind. There is no way orbs dps will last and make the class "viable" in any game type let alone wvw.

You should drop the f5 where you think your team going to be for a prolong fight and its very important which F5 your drooping. In a ranged bomb you want to use air for the quickness and fury. In an melee push you want the earth for proteciton and resiscates as well as "roots" from earth arcain power effect. Water will be for purly blasting of an water field ppl dont do it often but they still do it (sad state of the game indeed). Fire works like air but worst.

F5 even in pve is not good there too many perma effects with out the need of using energy that you cant get during the F5 effect. The balancing for ele is so badly done right now and its all on anet and no one else.

Hammer and catalyses needs to be more "dagger/dagger ele" like but with more aimed on combos. So more movement base dps even if its ranged dps. Where your skills always keep you moving and attking at the same time kind of like what you see from action combat games teara is an good example of this or Monster hunter (rewarding moving out of an attk with an attk.)

It's still a 15s cooldown. You get enough might from revenants and firebrands using Empower as well as any power scourges and such, resolution or protection is not as strong as running tempest with cleanses. You get fury from heralds already, the only way you would replace herald is if you have another stability source besides Inspiring Reinforcement and SYG/Mantra of liberation as well as Defense Field.

Well you're wrong about F5 not being good in PVE as it makes up 8K DPS / 20% of benchmark making it by the highest damage contribution. It was good enough to push PVE staff catalyst to 37K DPS, which is more than melee sword power weaver or power tempest without counting allies. It is liable to be reduced in damage unlike hammer orbs, since it is quite clear jade sphere wasn't meant as a damage source. The hammer orbs are similar to the pulsing shroud AOE of harbinger (Doom approaches/Cascading Corruption) or the passive PBAOE on condi renegade with Embrace the Darkness.