Virtuoso is a nerf to mesmer.

[Nezekan.2671]

Assuming you own HoT and PoF, Virtuoso taking up a trait tree slot is a nerf to mesmer.

The problem here is that Virtuoso has really uninspired and bad traits and if you take the "best" ones, you are a power dps and nothing else. But Mesmer did not need another power DPS who cannot provide any kind of Utility, whether to itself or the group. The damage is not even high for a pure dps spec. Here are some benchmarks to put things in perspective:

 

It's good that both of these by the same person. Virtuoso deals the same damage as Chrono, but Chrono can tank, provide alacrity, provide quickness, has good CC and much more versatile. Virtuoso can only dps.

The condition trait lines are just bad. It's very hard to have a build for Condi Virtuoso because Staff and Scepter are built with clones in mind. Clones auto attacks apply conditions, and thus Virtuoso cannot use Condi weapons like other Mesmers can. Not to mention there is no synergy between blades and condi weapons. Only dagger and greatsword have blade abilities, and they are pure power. Besides, Condi Virtuoso is completely behind Mirage, who does it better than Virtuoso and can also provide might and Alacrity if needed.

Virtuoso shatters are a nerf to core/chrono shatters. Virtuoso shatters are:

Single target (mesmer shatters are aoe)
Have a cast time (mesmer shatters don't)
Are projectiles (mesmer shatters are not)
Travel in a straight line and are none homing. Meaning if you are fast enough, you can walk away from their path and not get hit. (Clones follow their target and only shatter when reaching them)

The damage is not even high. Chrono F1 deals more damage than Virtuoso F1.

Some core mesmer traits are completely incompatible with Virtuoso. The two biggest offenders are these:

https://imgur.com/pbJ5ds2

SInce the image is not embedding, here are the traits:

Dueling minor trait sharper images: Illusion crits cause bleeding. Virtuoso has no illusions
Domination trait empowered illusions: Illusions deal 15% more strike damage. Same as above, no illusions to benefit from this

The issue of overloading blades is big too. Other mesmers who have their shatters on cooldown don't have to worry as much because clones are doing damage while waiting. Virtuoso does not have this. When your shatters are on cooldown, it's just a waste to be on 5 blades, and blade generation is fast enough where this becomes a problem. Stocking a blade when you are 5 blades should just throw it at the enemy, like the same way phantasms can throw blade once they are done attacking.

There are some "easy ways" to fix Virtuoso. Such as increasing it's damage, ( as a pure dps spec, it needs to have the potential to be highest dps in the game), make sword attacks blades, fix incompatible traits etc etc. But I don't think we should just take the easy way. It's a very boring spec with little inspiration. Without the art team carrying the spec, and believe me they do, it would be a very bad spec. It baffles me how the first class they introduced in beta is the most unfinished. It needs a fundamental review.

 

Edited March 10, 2022 by Nezekan.2671
Better ordering

[Suyheuti.1732]

I couldnt agree more. 

On the other hand, not wielding dagger is completely shame imo. 

Playstyle is almost same with chrono. Almost same utilities, spamming phantasms, use ether and spam again. 

As you said chrono has too many advantages. 

I dont even speak about condi virtuoso. Total disappointment. Mirage beats and also mirage has very unique playstyle. 

[Chrolo.8536]

Agreed in most points. What a rushed, uninspired and bland spec this is...

 

Impowered illusions does work though, since it increases phantasms dmg. Clone strike dmg is irrelevant anyways.

 

Sharper images is a big oversight tough. They could just have made this working for the player character instead. This way condi virt would "work" without wasting an entire line of traits on it.

 

The issues for this spec were forseen since the first beta - and the devs completely ignored them. Pity.

[OriOri.8724]

Completely off the top of my head, so this probably is busted in some way, but it would at least be super interesting if virtuoso bladesongs were changed to be toggle-able effects. You could have up to 1 bladesong active at a time, and while its active every blade you generate would automatically seek out your target (in combat) and apply the relevant effects.

 

So you could have F1 toggled on and every blade flies out dealing power dmg. Or F2 toggled for condi damage. Having F4 toggled would let each blade be a block, with some ICD I'm sure. F3 would be the hardest to balance here as it would be completely busted without some pretty high ICD.

IDK, maybe just F1 and F2 could be toggled and F3/F4 would still be cast on demand or something. But this would solve the issue of too many blades and too high cooldowns on the bladesongs. And has an added bonus of actually changing mesmer instead of applying a pretty new skin to its skills

[Nezekan.2671]

18 hours ago, Chrolo.8536 said:

Agreed in most points. What a rushed, uninspired and bland spec this is...

 

Impowered illusions does work though, since it increases phantasms dmg. Clone strike dmg is irrelevant anyways.

 

Sharper images is a big oversight tough. They could just have made this working for the player character instead. This way condi virt would "work" without wasting an entire line of traits on it.

 

The issues for this spec were forseen since the first beta - and the devs completely ignored them. Pity.

Still, I would prefer to have that extra strike damage. It adds up when you have 3 clones and waiting on shatters and they are executing sword 1.

[Shiyo.3578]

Chrono should be a quickness healer.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/All's_Well_That_Ends_Well

Mirage Condi DPS with alacrity support DPS offspec

Virt power DPS

 

Edited March 11, 2022 by Shiyo.3578

[Dadnir.5038]

13 minutes ago, Shiyo.3578 said:

Chrono should be a quickness healer.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/All's_Well_That_Ends_Well

Mirage Condi DPS with alacrity support DPS offspec

Virt power DPS

 

All's well that ends well is probably one of the worst way to heal your allies in game. I don't know what they wanted to do with this trait when they gave it to chronomancer but, if they wanted it to be a way to be a heal support, they failed.

Also, back on topic, one have to be careful with this kind of thread, the devs could nerf chrono after reading this just so that virtuoso end up being "better".

21 hours ago, Nezekan.2671 said:

Virtuoso deals the same damage as Chrono, but Chrono can tank, provide alacrity, provide quickness, has good CC and much more versatile. Virtuoso can only dps.

Strictly speaking the only advantage chrono have over virtuoso is it's ability to share alacrity and quickness. A virtuoso can both "tank" and "CC" pretty well. Unfortunately, the tank role is often associated with the ability to share boons

[Shiyo.3578]

4 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

All's well that ends well is probably one of the worst way to heal your allies in game. I don't know what they wanted to do with this trait when they gave it to chronomancer but, if they wanted it to be a way to be a heal support, they failed.

Yeah, it should be redesigned but the idea of "Wells now heal" is there.

[Ithilwen.1529]

Funny, I said the same pre-release and got laughed at. ANET basically implemented their wish list of Mesmer nerfs.

Edited March 16, 2022 by Ithilwen.1529

[Ombras.2853]

While I do agree on most points, and I have been addressing the same…

It’s not exactly as you say.

”Chrono can do the same dps, but also provide alacrity and quickness”, well, no?

Chrono STM is a completely different build, if you play PChrono you get more or less the same utilities you get for Virtuoso as well.

The cc on Virtuoso is very good as well (shatter 3, the same Sword 4 + GS 5 + Pistol 5 etc you would have on Chrono as well).

PChrono is even more selfish than Virtuoso, since it requires allies to keep up slow uptime to be good (cuz only Danger Time versions have a similar dps compared to Virtuoso, let’s be honest).

 

All in all, Virtuoso is an unfinished spec that still has many problems and bugs.

But, no.

Stop saying that PChrono is “Virtuoso but better”, cuz it isn’t.

It’s only more flexible (which is a very good point in playing it, don’t get me wrong).

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

3 hours ago, Ithilwen.1529 said:

Funny, I said the same pre-release and got laughed at. ANET basically implemented their wish list of Mesmer nerfs.

You might have gotten laughed at but only by non-mesmers. 

Every mesmer said the same thing since the first beta. 

[Xaylin.1860]

On 3/11/2022 at 10:28 AM, Dadnir.5038 said:

All's well that ends well is probably one of the worst way to heal your allies in game. I don't know what they wanted to do with this trait when they gave it to chronomancer but, if they wanted it to be a way to be a heal support, they failed.

In case you (or others) are not aware: It originally applied Alacrity on the final pulse. Which was also bad. The main idea of Wells was Chronomancers using Continuum Split but shifting back to basically benefit from those effects twice themselves. It's quite ironic how Specter does Wells and Alacrity so much better than Chrono nowadays.

 

That being said, Chrono might be the easiest to salvage of all the Mesmer eSpecs if ANet finally made up their mind what each spec is supposed to be. For Chrono, at this point in time, Healing, Quickness and some Power build with Slow would be an obvious pick. For Wells the "great effect at the end"-design definitely turned out to be a mistake and I'm in favor of getting rid of the delayed effects.

[Veprovina.4876]

5 minutes ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

For Wells the "great effect at the end"-design definitely turned out to be a mistake and I'm in favor of getting rid of the delayed effects.

That would also kinda fix wells for WvW cause right now they're useless.

I also suggested that once and apparently summoned the devil with the suggestion cause 1000 trolls appeared with mental gymnastics why wells are fine as they are.

And none of them play a mesmer.

Funny, I don't play a Thief and I don't comment on how their skills are perfect. Yet for some reason everyone is a mesmer expert.

Edited March 16, 2022 by Veprovina.4876

[godfat.2604]

I personally actually like delayed effects. It’s a flavour and it provides opportunities to time different skills to stack effects to generate a big spike. However it has to be like 5 times stronger than its current form, and I guess they’re not too fond to balance this way.

Under this design, competitive effects should also be stronger than PvE effects, because it’s much harder to land this on human, of course? That’s reverse to what they’re usually doing. If they can’t get this right after so many years, fine, just make something which can work. I take anything.

[Xaylin.1860]

Well (haha), back then Chronomancers were powerhouses with a monopoly on Alacrity and Quickness. The downsides of Wells didn't matter that much back then. The design idea is still alright. However, it is just no fun, really. It's too in effecient and not worth the effort.

 

I'd also like to point out that Mesmers still get Glamours. Which aren't bad bad but yet another area based Utility group. Which haven't really been touched since... pre HoT trait rework? (not counting Medic Feedback nerfs)

 

But I digress. Regarding Virtuoso, I feel like it is mostly carried by numbers. It will probably never be that what many Mesmer players were hoping for. But it can and should be improved by adding more synergies with core. Everything else is just lazy on ANets part.

[Hirosama Nadasaki.6792]

20 minutes ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

That being said, Chrono might be the easiest to salvage of all the Mesmer eSpecs

Honestly, I think chrono might be the hardest to correct, cuz the concept of chronomancers is something really hyped up and unique so they gotta work twice as hard to deliver on the idea. Compared to a class theme that's just flinging magic blades around it's more of a challenge to live up to the expectations. Hell, I'm getting more of a kick out of the Virtuoso concept in Elden Ring than in gw2 right now.

Of course if the idea is just to make it usable rather than interesting then ya, chrono's a lot easier to salvage then.

[Xaylin.1860]

2 minutes ago, godfat.2604 said:

I personally actually like delayed effects. It’s a flavour and...

Me too. But as you said yourself: It is harder to balance and sometimes flavor is just bad for gameplay. Cough. Mirrors. Cough.

 

Additionally: Designing an eSpec around their Utilities isn't that great, imho. It limits build diversity for that spec because it will only reach its full potential if equipped with those Utilities. Like how only Rage skills influence Berserker mode. Like how Mirage is desperate for Deceptions to get more Mirrors (at least outside PvP). Like how Mechanist basically always wants to run Signets. And this also applies to Virtuoso, honestly. Because you basically need those Utilities to get more "blade" effects to trigger your traits.

[Xaylin.1860]

10 minutes ago, Hirosama Nadasaki.6792 said:

Of course if the idea is just to make it usable rather than interesting then ya, chrono's a lot easier to salvage then.

Yeah, that's my mindset, to be honest. There is no way it will ever monopolize on (group) Alacrity and Quickness again. When it comes to Slow, Chrono wasn't even that good to begin with. So all thats left is the CS and Chronophantasma gimmick and making overall playstyles work (Healing, Boon, Power).

I think that having Chronophantasma for Chrono and Infinite Horizon for Mirage becoming Minors could be a very interesting approach to distinguish their playstyles (although Mirage does need a lot more work than that). But I'm not sure if ANet is willing to invest so much time into old specs. Maybe June/July patch will tell (Warrior and Ranger).

Edited March 16, 2022 by Xaylin.1860

[Hirosama Nadasaki.6792]

2 minutes ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

I think that having Chronophantasma for Chrono and Infinite Horizon for Mirage becoming Minor could be a very interesting approach to distinguish their playstyles (although Mirage does need a lot more work than that). But I'm not sure if ANet is willing to invest so much time into old specs. Maybe June/July patch will tell (Warrior and Ranger).

Infinite Horizon being a minor in particular is something that I've been wanting since Mirage release. It's just way too central to the mirage identity not to be a thing.

Another thing that could be interesting for Chrono is if they split the traitlines into pure support, with alacrity and quickness but low dps, and an offensive/debuffing traitline with things like slow, chill, and danger time but little to no support, so you can choose to either be a really good support with low dps/cc, or a really good dps/debuffer but selfish gameplay. Would at the very least solve the debacle of chrono having dps and quickness/alacrity all under one roof.

[Salt Mode.3780]

For them being able to split identity across e-spec it should be:

Chrono = More focus on slows, since it's original concept of alacrity and quickness is given to every other profession, capitalize on slow more. Double down on the slow quickness alacrity, obv not 100% uptime but enough to make a impact.

Mirage = Infinite Horizon in minor is a good idea but will get rejected by everyone else. 

Virtuoso = Allow back casting, keep the cast time w/e but allow back casting and actively reduce CD of shatters depending on blades used. I don't mean alacrity I mean flat seconds reduced per blades used.

Edited March 16, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[otto.5684]

Ya, it is missing a lot. It needs better damage and better consistency. And most definitely better sustain. 

[Mell.4873]

On 3/11/2022 at 1:11 AM, Nezekan.2671 said:

Assuming you own HoT and PoF, Virtuoso taking up a trait tree slot is a nerf to mesmer.

The problem here is that Virtuoso has really uninspired and bad traits and if you take the "best" ones, you are a power dps and nothing else. But Mesmer did not need another power DPS who cannot provide any kind of Utility, whether to itself or the group. The damage is not even high for a pure dps spec. Here are some benchmarks to put things in perspective:

 

It's good that both of these by the same person. Virtuoso deals the same damage as Chrono, but Chrono can tank, provide alacrity, provide quickness, has good CC and much more versatile. Virtuoso can only dps.

The condition trait lines are just bad. It's very hard to have a build for Condi Virtuoso because Staff and Scepter are built with clones in mind. Clones auto attacks apply conditions, and thus Virtuoso cannot use Condi weapons like other Mesmers can. Not to mention there is no synergy between blades and condi weapons. Only dagger and greatsword have blade abilities, and they are pure power. Besides, Condi Virtuoso is completely behind Mirage, who does it better than Virtuoso and can also provide might and Alacrity if needed.

Virtuoso shatters are a nerf to core/chrono shatters. Virtuoso shatters are:

Single target (mesmer shatters are aoe)
Have a cast time (mesmer shatters don't)
Are projectiles (mesmer shatters are not)
Travel in a straight line and are none homing. Meaning if you are fast enough, you can walk away from their path and not get hit. (Clones follow their target and only shatter when reaching them)

The damage is not even high. Chrono F1 deals more damage than Virtuoso F1.

Some core mesmer traits are completely incompatible with Virtuoso. The two biggest offenders are these:

https://imgur.com/pbJ5ds2

SInce the image is not embedding, here are the traits:

Dueling minor trait sharper images: Illusion crits cause bleeding. Virtuoso has no illusions
Domination trait empowered illusions: Illusions deal 15% more strike damage. Same as above, no illusions to benefit from this

The issue of overloading blades is big too. Other mesmers who have their shatters on cooldown don't have to worry as much because clones are doing damage while waiting. Virtuoso does not have this. When your shatters are on cooldown, it's just a waste to be on 5 blades, and blade generation is fast enough where this becomes a problem. Stocking a blade when you are 5 blades should just throw it at the enemy, like the same way phantasms can throw blade once they are done attacking.

There are some "easy ways" to fix Virtuoso. Such as increasing it's damage, ( as a pure dps spec, it needs to have the potential to be highest dps in the game), make sword attacks blades, fix incompatible traits etc etc. But I don't think we should just take the easy way. It's a very boring spec with little inspiration. Without the art team carrying the spec, and believe me they do, it would be a very bad spec. It baffles me how the first class they introduced in beta is the most unfinished. It needs a fundamental review.

 

Virtuoso has amazing condition dps since "blade" attacks trigger bleed so the auto attack alone can get above 30k dps

[Ithilwen.1529]

43 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

Virtuoso has amazing condition dps since "blade" attacks trigger bleed so the auto attack alone can get above 30k dps

That's complete and utter fiction.

[Mell.4873]

2 minutes ago, Ithilwen.1529 said:

That's complete and utter fiction.

Test it yourself, attacking the golem with vipers gear and all buffs produces dps as high as 35k just from auto attack

Edited March 17, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Salt Mode.3780]

Again with the golem benchmarks....catalyst got nerfed because of golem benchmarks not because it was practical in actual fights.

Now they suck at golem benchmark and worse in actual fights.

Edited March 17, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780