KeoLegend.5132 Posted March 24, 2022 Share Posted March 24, 2022 On 3/17/2022 at 9:45 PM, Gwaihir.1745 said: This is the hill anet will die on. Instead of just taking the easy win and calling vindicator dragoon with some massive aerial attacks and a spear weapon transform, they went down this road. Instead of taking the winning path and just giving guardian a paladin spec, we get willybender. They are so dedicated to not taking winning path when it is handed to them on a silver platter. Now they have a balancing nightmare they will never address (vindicator), traits that dont work(particularly willbender since its passives are removed and its core traitlines modify the passives), and are doing jack kittening kitten for competitive game modes. This is why i love GW2. They always try to do things outside the box. If they were to chose the easy path we wouldn't have all the cool stuff we have today. Making something new is always risk, most of the time start out pretty bad, but it gets fixed and then become a great feature that helps GW2 be the best MMO out there. Core guard is already a Paladin, Willbender was such a NICE addition. It needs tweaks, of course, but im very happy they didn't give another holy saint spec to Guard. Same with Vindi. Need some tweaks and fixes but the core concept design of the class is amazing 4 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwaihir.1745 Posted March 24, 2022 Share Posted March 24, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, KeoLegend.5132 said: If they were to chose the easy path we wouldn't have all the cool stuff we have today. Willbender was such a NICE addition. The lack of synergy there is appalling and is why they aren't the ones to stray from the path. - A spec reliant on multiple, fast hits on a class known for its low hit count, slow weaponry. (Staff, scepter, hammer, gs2 self slow, mace, sword 3 self root) - Nukes half of every grandmaster virtues trait out of existence. Indomitable courage has no aegis to reduce to cooldown of. - Grandmaster wb traits entirely remove the effect of 1 trait in every core traitline. - Absolute resolve has no effect on phoenix protocol. - Willbender flames are cast behind you on a class rushing forwards. - Willbender self roots with multiple animations. - Edited March 24, 2022 by Gwaihir.1745 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lotus.5672 Posted March 24, 2022 Author Share Posted March 24, 2022 On 3/23/2022 at 5:00 AM, wayneericgouin.9371 said: Best dodge option? Death drop? No sir, it was the weakest because it literally only did damage. In terms of overall usability it was the least robust of the 3. Semantics perhaps but still.. Im talking about the heal one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeoLegend.5132 Posted March 24, 2022 Share Posted March 24, 2022 2 hours ago, Gwaihir.1745 said: The lack of synergy there is appalling and is why they aren't the ones to stray from the path. - A spec reliant on multiple, fast hits on a class known for its low hit count, slow weaponry. (Staff, scepter, hammer, gs2 self slow, mace, sword 3 self root) - Nukes half of every grandmaster virtues trait out of existence. Indomitable courage has no aegis to reduce to cooldown of. - Grandmaster wb traits entirely remove the effect of 1 trait in every core traitline. - Absolute resolve has no effect on phoenix protocol. - Willbender flames are cast behind you on a class rushing forwards. - Willbender self roots with multiple animations. - I 100% agree with everything you said, thats why i said it need tweaks. The concept is great. It was done a bit bad, but i believe they will eventualy fix it, then we will be glad that GW2 gave us this cool class instead of another Paladin/Cleric kitten Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lorddarkflare.9186 Posted March 29, 2022 Share Posted March 29, 2022 I really wish all the dragoon skills were their own thing on F4, but sill cost full endurance. Would feel better to play and the tradeoff would still be present since if you were not looking to use that skill, you would effectively be wasting your grandmaster. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knighthonor.4061 Posted March 29, 2022 Share Posted March 29, 2022 On 3/21/2022 at 11:54 AM, Gwaihir.1745 said: Vindicators dodge is literally the same animation as Kain's jump in FF IV. And no one is saying it is. We are saying anet should take the win when it is handed to them rather than shoehorning stuff that doesnt work. https://images.app.goo.gl/4RjXA5hzSZbqUA6m7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonewolf Kai.3682 Posted March 29, 2022 Share Posted March 29, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Knighthonor.4061 said: https://images.app.goo.gl/4RjXA5hzSZbqUA6m7 Eh, FF14 is more of a bouncy landing, while GW2 landing is more impacting/slamming the weapon through the target and into the ground landing. Initial jump looks similar though. GW2 does it better regardless. Edited March 29, 2022 by Lonewolf Kai.3682 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mecto.9274 Posted March 29, 2022 Share Posted March 29, 2022 Give us two dodges!!! Make Vindicator Great again 2022!! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howluffu.7259 Posted March 29, 2022 Share Posted March 29, 2022 Reading thru the balance patch today I was specting some changes but I can only see a visual fix, a text delete and a wvw core revenant profession nerf. I don't know what to say. I am confused. I had hopes I really had. I don't know what to do maybe I need a break from the game. Tbh was hoping this elite spec had a different weapon and in a close future release greatsword for core class but playing this spec for the greatsword aspect in my fav class is no fun at all. The elite is a mess and I don't like it. I don't like renegade either and herald is shiet in pve. I'm starting to feel the same as I felt with WoW. Still keeping an eye on news, see what they do to the game but...I kinda feel don't want to play it right now. I will see this as an oportunity to do other stuff IRL. Who knows? Maybe this class gets better in the future. Maybe even a full rework to the Vindicator spec, who knows. I would also love to see the 2 normal dodges back and maybe put the Meteor Strikes somewhere else?(elite skills?), new grandmaster traits with? Anyway have a great day. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enundr.9305 Posted March 29, 2022 Share Posted March 29, 2022 On 3/16/2022 at 1:31 PM, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said: I'm going to be "that guy," and say Saint's Shield was way too strong. Healing for 6.2k every dodge was really good, and made the Vindicators I fought in WvW nigh immortal. Healing for 3.5k, while not as strong, is still pretty good. For comparison, Elementalists have the trait Flow Like Water, which heals for 478 when dodging an attack, with an internal cooldown of 10 seconds. Mmmm I haven't been on mine recently. But if the changes affected BOTH pve and pvp/wvw , then that's a BS excuse. Pve you can get wrecked faster than what your calling "nigh immortal"....overall i feel like the whole spec was a mess. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted March 30, 2022 Share Posted March 30, 2022 4 hours ago, Enundr.9305 said: Mmmm I haven't been on mine recently. But if the changes affected BOTH pve and pvp/wvw , then that's a BS excuse. Pve you can get wrecked faster than what your calling "nigh immortal"....overall i feel like the whole spec was a mess. Welcome to the thread. The Saint's Shield nerf was done exclusively on the PVP/WvW side. The rest of your post doesn't make sense. Excuse for what? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shao.7236 Posted March 30, 2022 Share Posted March 30, 2022 (edited) Vindicator doesn't need two dodges, it's fine as it is. If the mechanic is too difficult to wrap an head around don't play it. Revenant with or without Alliances can live with one evade due to the way the profession works, the exchange in between offense and defense in energy towards the evade is logical with how the profession delivers. GS5 still hits up to 8k (Possibly 10k) while Saint Shield was absolutely pure cringe. If you think that having the equivalent of Sand Flare in an evade was balanced, you really need to reconsider your perspective on what it means to have sustain. It's fine as it is now, it's only a matter of balancing the rest of other professions. Edited March 30, 2022 by Shao.7236 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonewolf Kai.3682 Posted March 30, 2022 Share Posted March 30, 2022 20 hours ago, Howluffu.7259 said: Reading thru the balance patch today I was specting some changes but I can only see a visual fix, a text delete and a wvw core revenant profession nerf. I don't know what to say. I am confused. I had hopes I really had. I don't know what to do maybe I need a break from the game. Tbh was hoping this elite spec had a different weapon and in a close future release greatsword for core class but playing this spec for the greatsword aspect in my fav class is no fun at all. The elite is a mess and I don't like it. I don't like renegade either and herald is shiet in pve. I'm starting to feel the same as I felt with WoW. Still keeping an eye on news, see what they do to the game but...I kinda feel don't want to play it right now. I will see this as an oportunity to do other stuff IRL. Who knows? Maybe this class gets better in the future. Maybe even a full rework to the Vindicator spec, who knows. I would also love to see the 2 normal dodges back and maybe put the Meteor Strikes somewhere else?(elite skills?), new grandmaster traits with? Anyway have a great day. This is an odd post to me. Sounds like you either need to play core only or don’t play revenant at all. 2 hours ago, Shao.7236 said: Vindicator doesn't need two dodges, it's fine as it is. If the mechanic is too difficult to wrap an head around don't play it. Revenant with or without Alliances can live with one evade due to the way the profession works, the exchange in between offense and defense in energy towards the evade is logical with how the profession delivers. GS5 still hits up to 8k (Possibly 10k) while Saint Shield was absolutely pure cringe. If you think that having the equivalent of Sand Flare in an evade was balanced, you really need to reconsider your perspective on what it means to have sustain. It's fine as it is now, it's only a matter of balancing the rest of other professions. Agreed. Not to mention weapon evades and blocks. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redfeather.6401 Posted March 30, 2022 Share Posted March 30, 2022 It's to make it so that if a vindicator dodges you know they cannot immediately dodge right afterward. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shao.7236 Posted March 30, 2022 Share Posted March 30, 2022 6 hours ago, Redfeather.6401 said: It's to make it so that if a vindicator dodges you know they cannot immediately dodge right afterward. Even then, Battle Dance is such a low cost skill, you also have other means to protect yourself with weapon blocks or not being stunned with Stability. It's not so black and white when looking at the options. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buran.3796 Posted March 30, 2022 Share Posted March 30, 2022 10 hours ago, Shao.7236 said: Vindicator doesn't need two dodges, it's fine as it is. Tell that to the Mirage players and how has been for them in PvP since the removal of the second dodge. Top Mesmer playes as Helseth or Misha barely have touched the class since, and last time you saw a Mesmer in MATs Pluto was a planet (hyperbole, I known but you get the point). There's a structural flaw into designing an action-rpg game with a limited amount of evades (2) as baseline for all kind of contents as a limitation and then changing it. Was problematic with Mirage, which has been excluded from high end PvP for years due the cut, and has been problematic with Daredevil, which made Deadeye irrelevant in PvP for the last four years, due three is just too good to ignore. Also my main complaint about the whole spec wasn't the lack of the stackable dodge, but the increase of the endurance cost for ALL of the options. Remember that due that increase in the 4th beta ANet BUFFED the support numbers of Saint of Zu Heltzer. Now, they nerfed the numbers of that third trait WITHOUT restoring the cost of 50 endurace units. And in the way, they also halved Eternity's Requiem in damage AND disabled tracking on stealth (because albeit as portrayed as an AoE salvo of explossions, in reality is just a bunch of random single target impacts). Is not like I didn't look at the options: chose staff to get more blocks, use energy sigils to get vigor, run Retribution to buff your endurance... But at the end you find out that you get no rewards (damage) due the compromises made, and you look a lot like the poor Guardian using mobility runes (Traveler, Lynx...) and VIT amulets due their pace is pathetic and the base 11K HP is excellent to be one shooted. I won't die in that beach: I won't chase the dream of making it work. The jump should have been a sort of "elite" or "ultimate" skill as DIII Crusader's "Falling Sword" instead of the bad jokes as the Spear and the Urn the Alliance has. Don't bring up two new legends with two bad heals and two terrible elites ANet; make instead five functional skills and new "F" mechanics which sinergyze with pre-existent legands and traits. Now we even have to endure people moaning about Vindi having 3 heals... lol. 3 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shao.7236 Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Buran.3796 said: Tell that to the Mirage players and how has been for them in PvP since the removal of the second dodge. Top Mesmer playes as Helseth or Misha barely have touched the class since, and last time you saw a Mesmer in MATs Pluto was a planet (hyperbole, I known but you get the point). There's a structural flaw into designing an action-rpg game with a limited amount of evades (2) as baseline for all kind of contents as a limitation and then changing it. Was problematic with Mirage, which has been excluded from high end PvP for years due the cut, and has been problematic with Daredevil, which made Deadeye irrelevant in PvP for the last four years, due three is just too good to ignore. Also my main complaint about the whole spec wasn't the lack of the stackable dodge, but the increase of the endurance cost for ALL of the options. Remember that due that increase in the 4th beta ANet BUFFED the support numbers of Saint of Zu Heltzer. Now, they nerfed the numbers of that third trait WITHOUT restoring the cost of 50 endurace units. And in the way, they also halved Eternity's Requiem in damage AND disabled tracking on stealth (because albeit as portrayed as an AoE salvo of explossions, in reality is just a bunch of random single target impacts). Is not like I didn't look at the options: chose staff to get more blocks, use energy sigils to get vigor, run Retribution to buff your endurance... But at the end you find out that you get no rewards (damage) due the compromises made, and you look a lot like the poor Guardian using mobility runes (Traveler, Lynx...) and VIT amulets due their pace is pathetic and the base 11K HP is excellent to be one shooted. I won't die in that beach: I won't chase the dream of making it work. The jump should have been a sort of "elite" or "ultimate" skill as DIII Crusader's "Falling Sword" instead of the bad jokes as the Spear and the Urn the Alliance has. Don't bring up two new legends with two bad heals and two terrible elites ANet; make instead five functional skills and new "F" mechanics which sinergyze with pre-existent legands and traits. Now we even have to endure people moaning about Vindi having 3 heals... lol. I find Alliances to be very functional and hardly have issues making them work, their synergy is surprisingly well done but still wish I could individually change skills on demand. As for damage.. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/789352464876568577/958878467385077780/damage.mp4 Edited March 31, 2022 by Shao.7236 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howluffu.7259 Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, Buran.3796 said: Tell that to the Mirage players and how has been for them in PvP since the removal of the second dodge. Top Mesmer playes as Helseth or Misha barely have touched the class since, and last time you saw a Mesmer in MATs Pluto was a planet (hyperbole, I known but you get the point). There's a structural flaw into designing an action-rpg game with a limited amount of evades (2) as baseline for all kind of contents as a limitation and then changing it. Was problematic with Mirage, which has been excluded from high end PvP for years due the cut, and has been problematic with Daredevil, which made Deadeye irrelevant in PvP for the last four years, due three is just too good to ignore. Also my main complaint about the whole spec wasn't the lack of the stackable dodge, but the increase of the endurance cost for ALL of the options. Remember that due that increase in the 4th beta ANet BUFFED the support numbers of Saint of Zu Heltzer. Now, they nerfed the numbers of that third trait WITHOUT restoring the cost of 50 endurace units. And in the way, they also halved Eternity's Requiem in damage AND disabled tracking on stealth (because albeit as portrayed as an AoE salvo of explossions, in reality is just a bunch of random single target impacts). Is not like I didn't look at the options: chose staff to get more blocks, use energy sigils to get vigor, run Retribution to buff your endurance... But at the end you find out that you get no rewards (damage) due the compromises made, and you look a lot like the poor Guardian using mobility runes (Traveler, Lynx...) and VIT amulets due their pace is pathetic and the base 11K HP is excellent to be one shooted. I won't die in that beach: I won't chase the dream of making it work. The jump should have been a sort of "elite" or "ultimate" skill as DIII Crusader's "Falling Sword" instead of the bad jokes as the Spear and the Urn the Alliance has. Don't bring up two new legends with two bad heals and two terrible elites ANet; make instead five functional skills and new "F" mechanics which sinergyze with pre-existent legands and traits. Now we even have to endure people moaning about Vindi having 3 heals... lol. I really wish they give vindi 2 normal dodges and put the jumpy bs on the respective alliance elite. Also greatsword hits like a wet noodle. Spear could be good if it was like F1 of DH instead of useless torment stacks but in utility slot with a respectful CD(OMG CC on vindi? I am a wizard!). Let's hope devs swallow their pride, bend the knees and rework this monstruosity Dog tier elite spec. Edited March 31, 2022 by Howluffu.7259 Typo 5 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artharon.9276 Posted April 1, 2022 Share Posted April 1, 2022 if they take away 1 dodge from core revenant it wouldn't be a big issue to me tbh. 1 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonewolf Kai.3682 Posted April 1, 2022 Share Posted April 1, 2022 On 3/30/2022 at 8:59 PM, Howluffu.7259 said: I really wish they give vindi 2 normal dodges and put the jumpy bs on the respective alliance elite. Also greatsword hits like a wet noodle. Spear could be good if it was like F1 of DH instead of useless torment stacks but in utility slot with a respectful CD(OMG CC on vindi? I am a wizard!). Let's hope devs swallow their pride, bend the knees and rework this monstruosity Dog tier elite spec. Let’s hope not. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nezekan.2671 Posted April 2, 2022 Share Posted April 2, 2022 Revs feeling the pain of Mirage I see. 3 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redfeather.6401 Posted April 2, 2022 Share Posted April 2, 2022 (edited) It'd be cool if dodge used 75% of the bar, and using dodge key again while in the first dodge animation uses the last 25% to give a movement speed boost to the dodge. This lets you dodge farther but you use up more endurance. Edited April 2, 2022 by Redfeather.6401 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ausar.9542 Posted April 2, 2022 Share Posted April 2, 2022 On 3/16/2022 at 1:31 PM, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said: I'm going to be "that guy," and say Saint's Shield was way too strong. Healing for 6.2k every dodge was really good, and made the Vindicators I fought in WvW nigh immortal. Healing for 3.5k, while not as strong, is still pretty good. For comparison, Elementalists have the trait Flow Like Water, which heals for 478 when dodging an attack, with an internal cooldown of 10 seconds. this is misleading. Because its no different from the healing output of a Firebrand or Scrapper. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted April 3, 2022 Share Posted April 3, 2022 2 hours ago, Ausar.9542 said: this is misleading. Because its no different from the healing output of a Firebrand or Scrapper. Provide proof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ausar.9542 Posted April 3, 2022 Share Posted April 3, 2022 8 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said: Provide proof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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