Nice to see that thief is pretty much removed from pvp

[Ragnar.4257]

So, question, exactly how many Specters do there need to be on MAT winning teams on both NA and EU before you might maybe admit that Specter is not terrible? 5? 6?

On 3/21/2022 at 1:08 AM, lightstalker.1498 said:

I rarely see them anymore. Specter is probably even more rare to see. Thank you anet for finally removing this abysmal class from the mode. 

On 3/21/2022 at 1:32 PM, Gundam Style.8495 said:

To the flatbrains saying there will be thief stacking in tournies, they are completely out of touch with reality. Literally no one who cares about winning is risking rank or victory by playing thief.

Like, yikes, do you not look back at some of the posts here and cringe?

 

Edited March 27, 2022 by Ragnar.4257

[Enduronex.4865]

On 3/20/2022 at 9:08 PM, lightstalker.1498 said:

I rarely see them anymore. Specter is probably even more rare to see. Thank you anet for finally removing this abysmal class from the mode. The occasional one here and there is manageable. COunt me as one of the grateful that you have finally removed them from the game mode. Please do not buff anything about them. This trash class needs to stay out of the game mode. Next, consider removing stealth and deleting mesmer and thief from the game completely.

This fellow clear did not watch the MATs yesterday or he'd have the clear sense to DELETE this post

[Gundam Style.8495]

6 hours ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

So, question, exactly how many Specters do there need to be on MAT winning teams on both NA and EU before you might maybe admit that Specter is not terrible? 5? 6?

Like, yikes, do you not look back at some of the posts here and cringe?

 

Which mat? The video linked only had 1 on one team for the final?

[Ashgar.3024]

On 3/20/2022 at 10:05 PM, Kuma.1503 said:

They'll come for your class next my friend. They always do. 

Unless you play Necro. Low effort high value class forever.

Edited March 28, 2022 by Ashgar.3024

[Ragnar.4257]

7 hours ago, Gundam Style.8495 said:

Which mat? The video linked only had 1 on one team for the final?

MAT EU, 2 Specters:

 

MAT NA, 2 Specters:

 

If you're not aware of what's going on, I'm not sure on what basis you're publically expressing an opinion.

[Gundam Style.8495]

6 hours ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

MAT EU, 2 Specters:

 

MAT NA, 2 Specters:

 

If you're not aware of what's going on, I'm not sure on what basis you're publically expressing an opinion.

I asked the question in response to a post made earlier on the week and we post yesterday's MAt?  Opinion is based on the previous community tourney, and ranked games. You can also read the forums and reddit to see that most of the games are flooded with harbinger, vindi, and mechanist. Where is the spectre OP breakdown thread? Yeah, it don't exist because outside of this upper echelon meme MAt, they are rarely in games, as well as regular thief in general. Basing what happens in 99% of the game solely on MAts is funny, because we've had 5 necro mats, but that's not indicative of what is going on in the game. Seems to me that if it was the meta, they should have ran 2 every match. But...they didn't. Anyways, I asked what tournies everyone was talking about earlier, turns out they were talking about the future. Break down why spectre is OP with build and which specific components or skills make it so. It is very easy to identify the problems with the necro, rev, and engi. Core guard is still the best support and meta choice in any scenario. Even a dps support hybrid guard is objectively better.

 

Almost every single team had a core guardian in almost every match for both regions, even the finals had at least 1. Is this indicative that it is OP?

Edited March 28, 2022 by Gundam Style.8495

[KrHome.1920]

19 minutes ago, Gundam Style.8495 said:

You can also read the forums and reddit to see that most of the games are flooded with harbinger, vindi, and mechanist. Where is the spectre OP breakdown thread? Yeah, it don't exist because outside of this upper echelon meme MAt, they are rarely in games, as well as regular thief in general.

You are arguing with skillfloors, but not balancing. Such arguments lead to nowhere.

[Ragnar.4257]

43 minutes ago, Gundam Style.8495 said:

I asked the question in response to a post made earlier on the week and we post yesterday's MAt?  Opinion is based on the previous community tourney, and ranked games. You can also read the forums and reddit to see that most of the games are flooded with harbinger, vindi, and mechanist. Where is the spectre OP breakdown thread? Yeah, it don't exist because outside of this upper echelon meme MAt, they are rarely in games, as well as regular thief in general. Basing what happens in 99% of the game solely on MAts is funny, because we've had 5 necro mats, but that's not indicative of what is going on in the game. Seems to me that if it was the meta, they should have ran 2 every match. But...they didn't. Anyways, I asked what tournies everyone was talking about earlier, turns out they were talking about the future. Break down why spectre is OP with build and which specific components or skills make it so. It is very easy to identify the problems with the necro, rev, and engi. Core guard is still the best support and meta choice in any scenario. Even a dps support hybrid guard is objectively better.

 

Almost every single team had a core guardian in almost every match for both regions, even the finals had at least 1. Is this indicative that it is OP?

Lol, no, I replied your post (this one) posted on Sunday, which itself was posted as a response to my question here also posted on Sunday. Sunday being the day after the MAT. So, none of this involves stuff in the future, you're just not keeping up.

And it's interesting that you've gone from saying that nobody will play it in tournament:

On 3/21/2022 at 1:32 PM, Gundam Style.8495 said:

To the flatbrains saying there will be thief stacking in tournies, they are completely out of touch with reality. Literally no one who cares about winning is risking rank or victory by playing thief.

To saying: "it doesn't matter what happens in tournaments" when your assertion that nobody will play it in tournaments has been shown to be completely false. It's a neat little trick to never admit you're wrong, and instead just change your argument every time.

Also, comparing guard to specter is laughable, for so so many reasons. First of all, core-support guardian =/= Willbender. Willbender and its dire state has literally nothing to do with core-support guard, they might as well be different classes. Secondly, people aren't stacking multiple core-support guards on their teams are they? And thirdly, actually, yes, core-support guard probably could use a bit of a nerf, as it does dominate the support-slot, that said we do now see strong teams choosing Tempest over it instead due to its superior projectile-denial, and again, as I said, the core-support build being over-tuned is not the same as Willbender being over-tuned. Nobody is saying Deadeye is too strong because of Specter, so don't try and conflate specs in that way.

Edited March 28, 2022 by Ragnar.4257

[Gundam Style.8495]

On 3/22/2022 at 6:09 PM, Gundam Style.8495 said:

What AT? Not the teapot stream. I just want to watch something where the specters are not just background noise.

 

54 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

Lol, no, I replied your post (this one) posted on Sunday, which itself was posted as a response to my question here also posted on Sunday. Sunday being the day after the MAT. So, none of this involves stuff in the future, you're just not keeping up.

And it's interesting that you've gone from saying that nobody will play it in tournament:

To saying: "it doesn't matter what happens in tournaments" when your assertion that nobody will play it in tournaments has been shown to be completely false. It's a neat little trick to never admit you're wrong, and instead just change your argument every time.

Also, comparing guard to specter is laughable, for so so many reasons. First of all, core-support guardian =/= Willbender. Willbender and its dire state has literally nothing to do with core-support guard, they might as well be different classes. Secondly, people aren't stacking multiple core-support guards on their teams are they? And thirdly, actually, yes, core-support guard probably could use a bit of a nerf, as it does dominate the support-slot, that said we do now see strong teams choosing Tempest over it instead due to its superior projectile-denial, and again, as I said, the core-support build being over-tuned is not the same as Willbender being over-tuned. Nobody is saying Deadeye is too strong because of Specter, so don't try and conflate specs in that way.

 

I forgot yesterday or the day before was mat, I asked from before when this was being said, a follow up from Tuesday.

 

The thread is not about the lack of thieves in ranked games? Any success due to spectres in the tourneys appeara to be a lack of experience against them, as the games were slow and clusterkittens if anything. I doubt there will be an encode, and because it wasn't the go to strat for every match, I'm doubting it is a good strategy at all still. Besides it seemed that the mat winners were potato farming. 

 

Thieves are rare in games, how many daredevils and deadeyes and core thieves did we see? 1 potato?

[Gundam Style.8495]

1 hour ago, KrHome.1920 said:

You are arguing with skillfloors, but not balancing. Such arguments lead to nowhere.

If no one can a class effectively except for top players against potatoes, how good is it really? Those I mentioned can be played by anyone, and they can do well against peers and perhaps even those slightly better. Playing spectre effectively requires your foes to be in a deficit for skill, or being carried by your team. The lack of their presence in those channels and standard ranked games only strengthens my claim.

[Tanbin.2436]

"Any success due to spectres in the tourneys appeara to be a lack of experience against them, as the games were slow and clusterkittens if anything."

Right, top players in the entire gamemode of PvP can't deal with specter so they stack them. Clearly a l2p issue on the teams utilizing them or going against them.

Just stop, you went from typing no thieves in pvp to not stacking thieves in pvp then to say that top pvp players don't know how to handle specter and it's their problem.

It's very clear you have no idea or grasp of what you're even typing about, and you've been made a fool multiple times already. This is very obvious to be either a troll post or you really just have no grasp on the current state of PvP at the top level, even in ranked specter is dumb - this isn't even a tourney thing.

Edited March 28, 2022 by Tanbin.2436

[UNOwen.7132]

2 Specters? Thats surprising. We havent had 2 thief teams since 2019. Are they actually that good in teamfights? I mean it would make sense they'd be good at that with wells, but it still kinda shocks me. No chance Specter will be left as it is though, they do not want thief to be good at anything but decapping and +1ing. 

[Ashgar.3024]

Higher skillfloor classes being absent from brackets where people can only handle playing Necro/Guard/Ranger. I'm shocked.

 

Revs, Eles and Mes also tend to be rarities at lower ratings.

[Vancho.8750]

@Ragnar.4257 Don't bother to try to reason, most thief players live in thief buble and don't play anything else, you can notice the ego about it being high skill floor. Remember when they complained that they do noodle damage, they did 4k attacks on a generally defensive builds with not much multipliers while everything else does like 3k on a similar bruisery build with a "heavy attack". They still do not understand why Thief is considered OP. Now they got a necro shroud on top of their mobility and do not understand how to use it, and for the first time they could have a thief build that could hold a side node. The only issue they have is DD since if you queue as Specter you will get a DD on the other team and nothing currently can substitute decap thief.

Also for Willbender, the whole thing got swiped from the Warrior forum based on rework ideas of berserker and concepts about 'support' elite spec, so everything taken from there Arenanet deemed OP, all the jank and clunkiness of the telegraphs and the aftercasts seem like the skills from another profession don't they.       

[lightstalker.1498]

At least there wasn't but maybe 1 daredevil in the tournaments. So, if specter can be nerfed out, then we will really and finally be rid of them. I saw that Bluri was on Specter and not the dp, so maybe it can be done.

[UNOwen.7132]

4 hours ago, Vancho.8750 said:

@Ragnar.4257 Don't bother to try to reason, most thief players live in thief buble and don't play anything else, you can notice the ego about it being high skill floor. Remember when they complained that they do noodle damage, they did 4k attacks on a generally defensive builds with not much multipliers while everything else does like 3k on a similar bruisery build with a "heavy attack". They still do not understand why Thief is considered OP. Now they got a necro shroud on top of their mobility and do not understand how to use it, and for the first time they could have a thief build that could hold a side node. The only issue they have is DD since if you queue as Specter you will get a DD on the other team and nothing currently can substitute decap thief.

Do you mean when backstab, the highest burst skill thief has, on a purely OFFENSIVE build (no, shadow arts is not defensive, its offensive) did 4k, while bruiser builds like Prot Holo were regularly bursting for over 5k? Where the only reason thief was played was because its a decap and +1 bot (Which is pretty much always the reason), where the fact that you do noodle damage does not matter? Because in that case, boy did you misrepresent the entire situation. Also thief was not considered "OP". It was considered a mandatory 1of in Conquest, because it does something no other class does. Also, isnt thief universally considered to be pretty high skill? 

 

Also, why are you claiming Spectre "can hold a sidenode", when it literally cant? Its clearly a teamfight and +1 build, but it still loses every 1v1. We saw that in the EU vs NA showmatch, where the one and only time a spectre didnt lose a 1v1 was vs another spectre. 

 

4 hours ago, Vancho.8750 said:

Also for Willbender, the whole thing got swiped from the Warrior forum based on rework ideas of berserker and concepts about 'support' elite spec, so everything taken from there Arenanet deemed OP, all the jank and clunkiness of the telegraphs and the aftercasts seem like the skills from another profession don't they.       

What exactly do you mean by this? Nothing about Willbender sounds like it'd be warrior.

[Vancho.8750]

8 minutes ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

Do you mean when backstab, the highest burst skill thief has, on a purely OFFENSIVE build (no, shadow arts is not defensive, its offensive) did 4k, while bruiser builds like Prot Holo were regularly bursting for over 5k? Where the only reason thief was played was because its a decap and +1 bot (Which is pretty much always the reason), where the fact that you do noodle damage does not matter? Because in that case, boy did you misrepresent the entire situation. Also thief was not considered "OP". It was considered a mandatory 1of in Conquest, because it does something no other class does. Also, isnt thief universally considered to be pretty high skill? 

 

Also, why are you claiming Spectre "can hold a sidenode", when it literally cant? Its clearly a teamfight and +1 build, but it still loses every 1v1. We saw that in the EU vs NA showmatch, where the one and only time a spectre didnt lose a 1v1 was vs another spectre. 

 

What exactly do you mean by this? Nothing about Willbender sounds like it'd be warrior.

DP DD pushes 4ks with heartseeker spam and it is not exactly rocket science on the mechanical part.

Specter can hold a sidenode since it has necro shroud, it works exactly like core necro, it is not a sidenoder but it can hold it long enough to matter which the other builds can't really do effectively.

For willbender it is somewhere here mash up of ideas if you wana search for it 

 Also I don't think there is any point to argue with you about stuff, i can't change your mind.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

5 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

DP DD pushes 4ks with heartseeker spam and it is not exactly rocket science on the mechanical part.

Specter can hold a sidenode since it has necro shroud, it works exactly like core necro, it is not a sidenoder but it can hold it long enough to matter which the other builds can't really do effectively.

For willbender it is somewhere here mash up of ideas if you wana search for it 

 Also I don't think there is any point to argue with you about stuff, i can't change your mind.

Hey, it's the omnibus! Source of all buffs not given to warrior. Ever....

[UNOwen.7132]

3 hours ago, Vancho.8750 said:

DP DD pushes 4ks with heartseeker spam and it is not exactly rocket science on the mechanical part.

Yeah, if the enemy is below 25% hp. Wow. When theyre at full health? Your Heartseekers are gonna be doing 2k damage. Thats pretty trash. And yeah, doing damage on thief is not difficult. Its a good thing that damage is the least important thing on thief since thats the thing thief is terrible at. Meanwhile rotation, map awareness, optimal macro, those are quite very hard, and oh it turns out, those are key to thief. 

 

3 hours ago, Vancho.8750 said:

 

Specter can hold a sidenode since it has necro shroud, it works exactly like core necro, it is not a sidenoder but it can hold it long enough to matter which the other builds can't really do effectively.

Uh, a lot of builds can do that? Maybe not thief builds, but thats not the point. And even then, this is not what I understand under "hold a sidenode". Being able to stand on it for 15 seconds instead of 5-10 is not exactly impressive. 

 

3 hours ago, Vancho.8750 said:

For willbender it is somewhere here mash up of ideas if you wana search for it 

 

I dont really see much of anything thats Willbender like here. Nothing really that majorly focuses on mobility like Willbender does. Which makes sense, because mobility is the one thing Warrior is already good at.

 

3 hours ago, Vancho.8750 said:

 

Also I don't think there is any point to argue with you about stuff, i can't change your mind.

You could, if you had convincing arguments. Its just that, for some reason, you never do. I wonder why.

[Vancho.8750]

12 hours ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

Yeah, if the enemy is below 25% hp. Wow. When theyre at full health? Your Heartseekers are gonna be doing 2k damage. Thats pretty trash. And yeah, doing damage on thief is not difficult. Its a good thing that damage is the least important thing on thief since thats the thing thief is terrible at. Meanwhile rotation, map awareness, optimal macro, those are quite very hard, and oh it turns out, those are key to thief. 

 

Uh, a lot of builds can do that? Maybe not thief builds, but thats not the point. And even then, this is not what I understand under "hold a sidenode". Being able to stand on it for 15 seconds instead of 5-10 is not exactly impressive. 

 

I dont really see much of anything thats Willbender like here. Nothing really that majorly focuses on mobility like Willbender does. Which makes sense, because mobility is the one thing Warrior is already good at.

 

You could, if you had convincing arguments. Its just that, for some reason, you never do. I wonder why.

Several people gave you longer argumentation for everything i just boiled it down, cause there isn't much point in repeating the same stuff. Also i agree thief is all about timing and how your teamfighter/sidenoder teammates perform but so are the rest of the roamer builds, it is just that they are not that mobile.
My problem is the whining that thief is bad in this threads, even though it isn't, it has several good roamer/ganker decaper builds  D/P , P/D(might be even better now since there is allot more people running condi builds or builds with high disabling condi output for cover conditions) and then there is Specter, which my personal opinion does too many stuff.  

[Vancho.8750]

16 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Hey, it's the omnibus! Source of all buffs not given to warrior. Ever....

And the source of other professions misery, have you checked if something like Virtuoso exists in there since the no clones drawback and the Blades(adrenaline) and the new shatter skills(bursts) kinda looks like warrior design.

[UNOwen.7132]

57 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

Several people gave you longer argumentation for everything i just boiled it down, cause there isn't much point in repeating the same stuff. Also i agree thief is all about timing and how your teamfighter/sidenoder teammates perform but so are the rest of the roamer builds, it is just that they are not that mobile.

 

Yeah they did. And then I pointed out every mistake they made and why their entire long argumentation is wrong. Strangely enough, they never had a response for that. Turns out they were just wrong. And yeah, other roamer builds would have similar difficulty, but as you said, theyre not as mobile. So theres no point to playing them.

 

57 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

My problem is the whining that thief is bad in this threads, even though it isn't, it has several good roamer/ganker decaper builds  D/P , P/D(might be even better now since there is allot more people running condi builds or builds with high disabling condi output for cover conditions) and then there is Specter, which my personal opinion does too many stuff.  

Tbh, Im sure people complained that thief was bad incorrectly, but for most thief players the problem is how little variety thief has. Its all decap and +1. A lot of people want thief to be a "deadly duelist" like the official class blurb describes them at. Instead, thief is the *worst* duelist. That sucks. And it sucks that no matter what you play, thief is terrible at 1v1s. But such is the price of shortbow 5.

[Vancho.8750]

3 minutes ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

Yeah they did. And then I pointed out every mistake they made and why their entire long argumentation is wrong. Strangely enough, they never had a response for that. Turns out they were just wrong. And yeah, other roamer builds would have similar difficulty, but as you said, theyre not as mobile. So theres no point to playing them.

 

Tbh, Im sure people complained that thief was bad incorrectly, but for most thief players the problem is how little variety thief has. Its all decap and +1. A lot of people want thief to be a "deadly duelist" like the official class blurb describes them at. Instead, thief is the *worst* duelist. That sucks. And it sucks that no matter what you play, thief is terrible at 1v1s. But such is the price of shortbow 5.

People didn't bother to respond cause it doesn't matter what they write they will not convince you anything.

For the whining, some professions/elites  can't even smell the meta or even be anti meta and then comes several thief threads about thief, that has multiple builds in the meta, they might overlap but the options are there, the most annoying is the specter ones, it is a core necro with mobility  that can heal without losing much damage with gravity well. 

[UNOwen.7132]

3 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

People didn't bother to respond cause it doesn't matter what they write they will not convince you anything.

Funny theory, but wrong for 2 reasons. 1 if you have good arguments, you definitely can convince me. Multiple people here have done so before. You just need good arguments. Bit hard to get those when youre just wrong. The other is, they were all too happy to respond all the time ... until I completely dismantled their argument and they had no response left. Funny how it *always* lines up that they "think it doesnt matter" right when they have no arguments left. No, they didnt respond because they had no response. But also were too stubborn to admit that they were just wrong.

 

3 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

For the whining, some professions/elites  can't even smell the meta or even be anti meta and then comes several thief threads about thief, that has multiple builds in the meta, they might overlap but the options are there, the most annoying is the specter ones, it is a core necro with mobility  that can heal without losing much damage with gravity well. 

Thief only had 1 build in the meta for *ages*. Decap and +1 bot. Thats literally the only playable build. Although Specter now seems to be decent at teamfights too. But no, thats not quite accurate. Its not as good as core necro, but it doesnt have to be. Also healing is ironicalyl the thing Specter is terrible at.

[Hogwarts Zebra.8597]

On 3/29/2022 at 12:48 PM, UNOwen.7132 said:

Thief only had 1 build in the meta for *ages*. Decap and +1 bot. Thats literally the only playable build. Although Specter now seems to be decent at teamfights too. But no, thats not quite accurate. Its not as good as core necro, but it doesnt have to be. Also healing is ironicalyl the thing Specter is terrible at.

Thief has always had, and still has, multiple viable builds. People simply choose to run the most broken build of the bunch and proceed to complain abt not having equally broken alternatives.