Every Problem with Tempest in Wvw.

[Jski.6180]

1 hour ago, Zikory.6871 said:

Watch scrapper get dumpstered and everyone switches to tempest. 

We can only hope and dream as scrapper is not an support class like tempest but was made into an support class because anet did not want it to be the cc bruiser class it was to start with and anet made the error of making med kit so overwhelming healing support tool.

 

2 hours ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

No they aren't, they're still powerful, just but not scrapper levels of powerful. 

Supports are one of the biggest factors making WvW really terrible atm and none need to be buffed to scrappers level, scrapper needs to come back down to the rest of the games power level. 

So tempest is just weaker then the stander support class is what your saying hehe.

[Xenesis.6389]

Pfft as if any zergs would run without crutch stealth from sneak gyro.

[God.2708]

3 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

We can only hope and dream as scrapper is not an support class like tempest but was made into an support class because anet did not want it to be the cc bruiser class it was to start with and anet made the error of making med kit so overwhelming healing support tool.

 

So tempest is just weaker then the stander support class is what your saying hehe.

Setting aside how absolutely droll you sound repeating tempest woes like a broken record.

I did find this observation a bit 'Broken clock is right twice a day'. See, Scrapper wasn't really made into a support class. There is nothing 'support' about scrappers traits for the most part. They are all selfish beyond the superspeed sharing. (prior iterations aside). What Anet screwed up on was they gave scrapper utility (Superspeed, Stealth) and then gave core engineer incredibly powerful support, and then set it up so engineer didn't need to make any trade offs to get both of those things. You could delete the scrapper line and engineer would still be an incredibly powerful 'support' It still has 100% of the healing it did before and 95% of the cleansing (They'd likely take Elixir C and Elixir  R over missing Gyros, and then supply crate).

Would people take scrappers? No, they take them for the superspeed and stealth, but we still have people in this topic ranting about cleanse counts and PoP and at this point I'm fairly certain they don't actually play the game and if they do it's clear why they struggle so much against people with any skill.

[Jski.6180]

42 minutes ago, God.2708 said:

Setting aside how absolutely droll you sound repeating tempest woes like a broken record.

I did find this observation a bit 'Broken clock is right twice a day'. See, Scrapper wasn't really made into a support class. There is nothing 'support' about scrappers traits for the most part. They are all selfish beyond the superspeed sharing. (prior iterations aside). What Anet screwed up on was they gave scrapper utility (Superspeed, Stealth) and then gave core engineer incredibly powerful support, and then set it up so engineer didn't need to make any trade offs to get both of those things. You could delete the scrapper line and engineer would still be an incredibly powerful 'support' It still has 100% of the healing it did before and 95% of the cleansing (They'd likely take Elixir C and Elixir  R over missing Gyros, and then supply crate).

Would people take scrappers? No, they take them for the superspeed and stealth, but we still have people in this topic ranting about cleanse counts and PoP and at this point I'm fairly certain they don't actually play the game and if they do it's clear why they struggle so much against people with any skill.

Even with thoughts 2 effects scraper is a very strong healing support class because of med kit.

[Arheundel.6451]

9 hours ago, Zikory.6871 said:

Watch scrapper get dumpstered and everyone switches to tempest. 

Ofc not....forums are just a place for people to wave that virtue flag...wanting to believe what they are yapping about....in actual game is another story..scrappers outnumber tempest by 10 to 1..forums all full of BS talk

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

5 hours ago, God.2708 said:

Setting aside how absolutely droll you sound repeating tempest woes like a broken record.

I did find this observation a bit 'Broken clock is right twice a day'. See, Scrapper wasn't really made into a support class. There is nothing 'support' about scrappers traits for the most part. They are all selfish beyond the superspeed sharing. (prior iterations aside). What Anet screwed up on was they gave scrapper utility (Superspeed, Stealth) and then gave core engineer incredibly powerful support, and then set it up so engineer didn't need to make any trade offs to get both of those things. You could delete the scrapper line and engineer would still be an incredibly powerful 'support' It still has 100% of the healing it did before and 95% of the cleansing (They'd likely take Elixir C and Elixir  R over missing Gyros, and then supply crate).

Would people take scrappers? No, they take them for the superspeed and stealth, but we still have people in this topic ranting about cleanse counts and PoP and at this point I'm fairly certain they don't actually play the game and if they do it's clear why they struggle so much against people with any skill.

That’s a straw man and you know it because the discussion isn’t about scrapper it’s about how bad tempest is. What you said is like saying “hey if you take away medkit I bet everyone will stop playing scrapper and play ele.” You don’t say?

 

Yes, people take scrapper because not only do they provide useful utilities like party wide stealth, super speed and quickness, stability…but they are also top cleanse, top healing and turn their cleanse into boons for even more support utility. You can do something similar on core engi, and I bet any money that people will STILL take core engi over tempest if they removed stealth and super speed because engi just outclasses ele on support in every department even without those tools.

Edited March 28, 2022 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[ArchonWing.9480]

6 hours ago, God.2708 said:

I'm fairly certain they don't actually play the game and if they do it's clear why they struggle so much against people with any skill.

You're not wrong. And honestly, that applies to me sometimes (I spend too much time on these forums ranting about something). But I sometimes try to limit how annoying I can get.

I've had the misfortune of encountering some familiar personalities in game,  and omg the crying. It goes on for pages and pages. I mean holy crap, just play the game or don't. Fortunately the game has a block list, unlike here.

I mean, I get it. I complain about a lot of things. I don't like ele's state either. There's also  so little Anet balancing with WvW, especially since they failed with the 6 weeks cadence. And that has not to do with player skill.

But sometimes it just becomes a really bad melodrama and nobody likes that.  Just because I'm not having fun, doesn't mean I should ruin other people's fun.

 

Edited March 28, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[Custodio.6134]

I think a big issue in this discussion regarding Scrapper is a wrong approach to what "support" is made of. 

Scrapper does way more than just healing and cleansing in terms of supportive effects. 

Yes, healing and cleansing make up the majority, but it is not limited to only those 2.

You have condition convert (even after the huge nerf, it's still strong as mechanic), you hove boon support (stability, regen and all converted boons from PoP), healing(direct and water combo) , superspeed, quickness, damage mitigation (bulwark gyro), spike-CC (hammer 5) and on top of that: stealth (sneak gyro and smoke blast). 

 

All of that needs to be factored into the "support", not only healing and cleansing. And this is also the reason why Scrapper absolutely outperforms against Tempest. Tempest used to be a "very special" pick before the changes, but it cannot compete against Scrapper outside of some very special scenarios anymore (especially in large scale). 

ANet would have to Buff up Tempest into the heavens to even give it a chance in large scale, and this still may not be enough to make it compete against Scrapper. They perhaps would need to nerf Scrapper very hard too, what could perhaps result in devastating changes to the meta. It's a task, that is very difficult to realize, since small changes can have extreme results, flipping everything upside down. 

[Jski.6180]

2 hours ago, Custodio.6134 said:

I think a big issue in this discussion regarding Scrapper is a wrong approach to what "support" is made of. 

Scrapper does way more than just healing and cleansing in terms of supportive effects. 

Yes, healing and cleansing make up the majority, but it is not limited to only those 2.

You have condition convert (even after the huge nerf, it's still strong as mechanic), you hove boon support (stability, regen and all converted boons from PoP), healing(direct and water combo) , superspeed, quickness, damage mitigation (bulwark gyro), spike-CC (hammer 5) and on top of that: stealth (sneak gyro and smoke blast). 

 

All of that needs to be factored into the "support", not only healing and cleansing. And this is also the reason why Scrapper absolutely outperforms against Tempest. Tempest used to be a "very special" pick before the changes, but it cannot compete against Scrapper outside of some very special scenarios anymore (especially in large scale). 

ANet would have to Buff up Tempest into the heavens to even give it a chance in large scale, and this still may not be enough to make it compete against Scrapper. They perhaps would need to nerf Scrapper very hard too, what could perhaps result in devastating changes to the meta. It's a task, that is very difficult to realize, since small changes can have extreme results, flipping everything upside down. 

What going on is that kits are such an powerful tool for the eng class that they out right override any ability of eng elite spec. So we see something like scraper become an healing support even though it was more of an dps tankly utility class mechness is also becoming an healing support even though it maybe more of a "pet cele" class. You can even play holo as support due to the med kit not as well say scraper or mechness but due to the power of the med kit every thing on eng can be played as full healing support.

And what that dose for the game is now your utility classes are also doing the bulk of the healing and they become the stander of the support in the game. Every thing else is going to be judged base off of this so yes you can stay its op and it needs to be nerfed but that seems to be just the wrong way to go about things. Better to buff other support to the scraper or eng level.

I for one would not mind seeing Tempest do more healing and say more enducese healing for vigor like you see in spvp now. I would also love to see auras take on the ele trait line effects lighting rod and blinding ash as well as maybe some how letting protection become stronger when from the tempest.

[God.2708]

13 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

That’s a straw man and you know it because the discussion isn’t about scrapper it’s about how bad tempest is. What you said is like saying “hey if you take away medkit I bet everyone will stop playing scrapper and play ele.” You don’t say?

 

Yes, people take scrapper because not only do they provide useful utilities like party wide stealth, super speed and quickness, stability…but they are also top cleanse, top healing and turn their cleanse into boons for even more support utility. You can do something similar on core engi, and I bet any money that people will STILL take core engi over tempest if they removed stealth and super speed because engi just outclasses ele on support in every department even without those tools.

Pulled from GW2 mists builds for sake of consistency.
Scrapper P/S: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PegAo6lNweYeMH2Je6TntSA-zRJYjRDfZkUCUdB47BRA1AU6t0+mF-e
P Gyro: 25 cleanses 20s = 1.25CPS
Cleansing Field: 20 cleanses 15s = 1.33CPS
Fumigate: 25 cleanses 12s = 2.08CPS
Bandage Self: 5 cleanses 17s = .3CPS
Super Elixir: 5 cleanses 20s = .25CPS
Magnetic Inversion Blast: 5 cleanses 20s = .25CPS
Acid Bomb Blast: 5 cleanses 15s = .33CPS
TOTAL: 5.79CPS

Tempest D/F: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PGABg2h3lRwYYOsFWJOWTrtbA-zVJYjRPfhEUIkZFUdCo6hIA7h3S7bWA-w

This did not factor in powerful aura hitting you + 5 others for 6 targets so it's technically slightly higher than the listed math. Also did not include blasts as elementalist has no personal light fields, though you'd almost certainly pop on a guardian one if you tried even slightly.

Overload Water/Air/Earth Aura: 5*3 cleanses 20s = .75CPS
Overload Water: 20 cleanses 20s = 1CPS
Water Attune: 5 cleanses 20s = .25CPS
Fire Attune Aura: 5 cleanses 10s = .5CPS
Transmute Fire: 10 cleanses 10s = 1CPS
Transmute Lightning: 10 cleanses 20s = .5CPS
Fire Shield: 5 cleanses 20s = .25CPS
Shocking Aura: 5 cleanses 25s = .20CPS
WTPA/FTB: 10*2 cleanses 25s = .8CPS
Flash-Freeze:10 cleanses 30s = .33CPS
Eye of the Storm: 5 cleanses 35s = .14CPS
TOTAL: 5.72CPS

Well color me a Snargle Goldclaw novel in explicit detail it looks like scrapper completely and totally dominates tempest in cleanses by a whole .07 CPS. Pack it up everyone tempest is worthless at cleansing, ANET sucks like a vacuum cleaner, and the game is as balanced as a New Kaineng zipline! It's left as an exercise for the reader to run those numbers for a cleanse oriented core guardian (Hint: It beats both of them pretty handily)

Save your comments about scrappers outhealing, or I swear to myself I'll report you for being non constructive. Everyone already has ascertained and agrees with that. It isn't nearly as bad as it use to be since the no ICD PoP -> Comeback cure -> MDFed compounding chemicals loop got.. well an ICD. The outhealing is mostly off the back of med-kit 1 and is a simple nerf. Though I wouldn't complain about staff ele coming back and water 1 being stronger.

I'll also report you for non-constructive if you bring up anything I've already stated in prior posts about why scrapper cleansing is better than tempests.
---
The POINT of all that stupid tirade I shouldn't have had to do was reinforce that it is the utility scrapper offers that makes it preferred over tempest. The fun sidebar is that all of that utility is also offered by a power scrapper. So you COULD have a tempests obnoxious soft and hard CC and the cleanses + superspeed + stealth of a scrapper. But then you have a power scrapper that has to run over trails of anguish so...

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

2 hours ago, God.2708 said:

Pulled from GW2 mists builds for sake of consistency.
Scrapper P/S: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PegAo6lNweYeMH2Je6TntSA-zRJYjRDfZkUCUdB47BRA1AU6t0+mF-e
P Gyro: 25 cleanses 20s = 1.25CPS
Cleansing Field: 20 cleanses 15s = 1.33CPS
Fumigate: 25 cleanses 12s = 2.08CPS
Bandage Self: 5 cleanses 17s = .3CPS
Super Elixir: 5 cleanses 20s = .25CPS
Magnetic Inversion Blast: 5 cleanses 20s = .25CPS
Acid Bomb Blast: 5 cleanses 15s = .33CPS
TOTAL: 5.79CPS

Tempest D/F: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PGABg2h3lRwYYOsFWJOWTrtbA-zVJYjRPfhEUIkZFUdCo6hIA7h3S7bWA-w

This did not factor in powerful aura hitting you + 5 others for 6 targets so it's technically slightly higher than the listed math. Also did not include blasts as elementalist has no personal light fields, though you'd almost certainly pop on a guardian one if you tried even slightly.

Overload Water/Air/Earth Aura: 5*3 cleanses 20s = .75CPS
Overload Water: 20 cleanses 20s = 1CPS
Water Attune: 5 cleanses 20s = .25CPS
Fire Attune Aura: 5 cleanses 10s = .5CPS
Transmute Fire: 10 cleanses 10s = 1CPS
Transmute Lightning: 10 cleanses 20s = .5CPS
Fire Shield: 5 cleanses 20s = .25CPS
Shocking Aura: 5 cleanses 25s = .20CPS
WTPA/FTB: 10*2 cleanses 25s = .8CPS
Flash-Freeze:10 cleanses 30s = .33CPS
Eye of the Storm: 5 cleanses 35s = .14CPS
TOTAL: 5.72CPS

Well color me a Snargle Goldclaw novel in explicit detail it looks like scrapper completely and totally dominates tempest in cleanses by a whole .07 CPS. Pack it up everyone tempest is worthless at cleansing, ANET sucks like a vacuum cleaner, and the game is as balanced as a New Kaineng zipline! It's left as an exercise for the reader to run those numbers for a cleanse oriented core guardian (Hint: It beats both of them pretty handily)

Save your comments about scrappers outhealing, or I swear to myself I'll report you for being non constructive. Everyone already has ascertained and agrees with that. It isn't nearly as bad as it use to be since the no ICD PoP -> Comeback cure -> MDFed compounding chemicals loop got.. well an ICD. The outhealing is mostly off the back of med-kit 1 and is a simple nerf. Though I wouldn't complain about staff ele coming back and water 1 being stronger.

I'll also report you for non-constructive if you bring up anything I've already stated in prior posts about why scrapper cleansing is better than tempests.
---
The POINT of all that stupid tirade I shouldn't have had to do was reinforce that it is the utility scrapper offers that makes it preferred over tempest. The fun sidebar is that all of that utility is also offered by a power scrapper. So you COULD have a tempests obnoxious soft and hard CC and the cleanses + superspeed + stealth of a scrapper. But then you have a power scrapper that has to run over trails of anguish so...

 

You are taking a calculation that I originally did a long time ago. I'm not hard of memory.

 

Here's the "issue" and the differences between how you are using these kinds of calculations and how I use these calculations. Looking at maximum potentials is great, because they allow one to make easy comparisons between different skills to create priority rotations. However, when you are comparing two classes with each other and making decisions based on maximum potentials of just 1 category (cleansing in this case) and ignoring everything else, then this becomes a problem when we ask questions or saying things like "Tempest can replace scrapper in largescale."

 

The answer is no they can not, not with that build...because you literally took the best condition cleanse build ele can currently do, which pretty much sacrifices it's ability to do anything else, in order to do cleansing, that is "on par" with meta scrapper's cleansing, While Scrapper's cleansing is just one part of their myriad of good tools to keep people alive in a fight like HEALING...because newsflash, you can't just spam cleanses to keep people alive, you need green numbers...and other useful tools.

 

I explicitly state throughout this thread , how you are supposed to use these kinds of calculations (It's almost unreadable now thanks to forum change, sorry). They are meant to be used in combination with an efficacy calculation, for the purposes of comparing your performance to an ideal version of yourself rather than to other players.

 

For example, because you chose the meta engineer to compare, in which the skills are in place for specific reasons, you omit some of engi's  other condition cleanse options (Shredder Gyro, and Anticorrosion plating) which easily doubles engineer's condition cleansing in exchange for healing and utility. Personally I run Shredder Gyro over Elixir Gun (because it has a potential of 5 CPS), because that way I can stay in MK rather than swapping out (gets me closer to my healing potential), since I found that in these hardcore GVG fights, leaving MK for even a few seconds can cost you the fight.

 

Other players will sometimes chose anticorrosion plating over POP. Again, another trait that blows ele's strongest cleanse build out of the water no pun intended.

 

Here is the final point about how you take calculations and apply them. Ask yourself can you take that Ele build there and play in a group WITHOUT scrapper being there? the answer is no you won't and you probably can't...like someone mentioned earlier, you'd get run over because you do not have the healing,  do not have the boon support, the rez support, or the utility. When you do your calculations, you always consider the cost-benefit of bringing one skill to another. Why do you think I even played a staff tempest over these lame D/WH or D/F builds? Because back 2 years ago, you  could do green numbers and big utility with staff, and you were able to replace scrappers.

[Downstate.4697]

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PGQAYlRwaYOsFWJe+TVNfA-z1IY1ogvMSNBquA8dWW9MC-w

Staff tempest has a ton of tools and has a good mix of soft cc and hard cc. 

You can argue that aura share is better but personally cleansing water on staff is too good. 

I take celestial because it offers alot that you would want with condition and boon duration. Superspeed is nice but so is being able to peel pugs away from the blob.

Haters will say its fake

[LegohBrave.1823]

There's just no replacing the fact that Scrapper does it all except STAB.

 

Tempest CAN NOT replace Scrapper as it currently is because Scrappers bring...

 

Heals, cleanses, stealth, boons (POP), superspeed

 

Let's hold there. Let's talk about superspeed. Superspeed provides out of combat Swiftness speed while in combat.

 

This is one of thee most powerful skills in the game. The ability to keep superspeed up CLOSE to 100% is so broken it's disgusting. People wonder why W key fights happen? Unmitigated Perma superspeed.

 

Not to mention Quickness. Which is also incredibly powerful.

 

Scrapper is fulfilling the compliment to Firebrand like no one class can. It's so OP ITS INSANE.

 

I would love to see a support herald or any other class like Tempest come close. Hell I have 4200 hours on Tempest. But organized wvw zerg fights? You leave the tempest at the character screen and you make your commander happy with 1 firebrand and 1 Scrapper per party.

 

What does tempest need to be meta?

 

10 man shouts was a GREAT way to cover the gap with raw numbers.

 

10 man shouts PRE CC damage nerf and a cele tempest had cleanses, heals, AND dps which turned it into a very unique hybrid. Maybe not 1 per party but an incredible addition of raw ridiculous numbers combined with it's Aura memes.

 

Anet saw to nerf both 10 man shouts and the ability for those shouts to do any damage, cut it's healing coef and by reducing to 5 reduced it's overall healing by 75%.

 

I don't even know what to do to make tempests great again. Stab on aurashare? Maybe but overloads just get interrupted ALL THE TIME.

 

Just run Scrapper please. Anet will notice no one plays tempest in organized groups and the numbers of Tempest run time and overall tempest counts will drop and anet might take notice.

 

I had a "please don't remove 10 man shouts" thread and anet just ignored me. If a loser like me that played this many hours and warns you not to nerf something and you do it anyway, well. Here we are.

[Jski.6180]

11 hours ago, FrownyClown.8402 said:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PGQAYlRwaYOsFWJe+TVNfA-z1IY1ogvMSNBquA8dWW9MC-w

Staff tempest has a ton of tools and has a good mix of soft cc and hard cc. 

You can argue that aura share is better but personally cleansing water on staff is too good. 

I take celestial because it offers alot that you would want with condition and boon duration. Superspeed is nice but so is being able to peel pugs away from the blob.

Haters will say its fake

They nerfed staff out put some time ago for both clears and healing it was a major hit for reg clears and aura clears where simply the power creeped version. Even the hard cc where nerfed a long time ago to only hit 10 targets. Lets not forget the old root build that was destroyed from all of this because of other classes doing too many root effects (yet they where not nerfed on the same level of -50% duration to arcain roots that ele was).

This is not unknown but needs to be said every viable build for the ele class has been nerfed and keeps getting nerfed. That is the current state of ele over all and mostly tempest a far more mechanic aimed class then say weaver whom is more of an raw numbers class.

[Custodio.6134]

also (repeating myself) people in this thread start focusing on one (1 !) aspect of the classes to compare them, where you need to include ALL the utility the classes can provide for a direct comparison of 2 different classes. 

You can´t just compare two support classes solely based on Healing and Cleansing-numbers. 

To refresh your memory on what i exactly mean by that: 
 

Quote

- Firebrand: stability, resistance, resolution, reflections, stunbreaks, Blocks (Aegis), Projectile destruction, slight healing, potentially rezz (Signet of Mercy), CC (pulls/lines)
-Scrapper: initial stability (bulwark toolbelt), cleanse, healing, stealth, CC for spikes (Hamer 5), projectile destruction, Boon-generation (Purity of Purpose, even though it got nerfed), Superspeed, Quickness
Tempest: Aura-Support, Healing, cleansing (without converting), some (pretty unreliable) CC, Rebound 

 

It´s the basic principle of "crafting" a Team Composition, and even more when doing changes to it. 
You need to define what slot that particular class/build should fit in, which class/build currently holds the spot and what changes will happen if you replace one slot with another. Even more, when you want to change the slot entirely.

The slot of a "second supporter" (which the scrapper is usually referred to, since Firebrand is absolutely essential as Main Supporter) is the one you wanna look at. So if you want to fit in a Tempest there, you need to compare it against scrapper (what we are currently doing in this thread). We need to take into account, which effects we lose by taking out a scrapper, and which effects we gain from putting in a Tempest instead. 

Also as a side note: i would LOVE to see more different classes having the same viability in the same spot of current setups (which you in the current state of WvW can refer as
"Main Boon Support", "Second Support Healer", "Range DPS Spike", "Boon Strip/Melee Spike" and "Flex", with "Flex being either another Boonstrip such as Spellbreaker/Chronomancer, or a third Scourge)

 

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

about the changes made today…

 

they shouldn’t have changed scrapper, but the transmutation changes is a good start to fixing ele,

 

Here is the issue with the changes today. Increasing the internal cooldown on POP and  medical dispersion field will make scrappers change into taking anti corrosion plating. Anti-corrosion plating is a very strong cleanse and because scrappers will start to take this over MDF, you will have Ele that just got the transmutation buffs competing against scrappers who are gonna be still cleansing way more than ele…and because they didn’t buff any of ele’s healing capacity the healing gap left behind by MDF is gonna be taken up by you guessed it…scrappers. 

 

This is ignores that scrapper still has all those other utilities, and you’d have to completely nuke them all from existence to get people to play anything other than scrapper

 

nerfs do not work, when will people learn that all nerfing does is make builds non-functional.

[Kozumi.5816]

9 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

nerfs do not work, when will people learn that all nerfing does is make builds non-functional.

They work in every other game.

[Jski.6180]

8 hours ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

They work in every other game.

Its better to work in an positive way where you build up classes not bring them down.

 

Update seemed ok for tempest over all though i think its better for catalyst aura support its simply easier to get the right auras on catalyst due to combos giving auras base off of your atument where overloads simply take so much longer to pull off. It helps for tempest for sure and i am looking forwarded to using it to the full effect.

[Littlekenny.4196]

6 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

Its better to work in an positive way where you build up classes not bring them down.

 

Update seemed ok for tempest over all though i think its better for catalyst aura support its simply easier to get the right auras on catalyst due to combos giving auras base off of your atument where overloads simply take so much longer to pull off. It helps for tempest for sure and i am looking forwarded to using it to the full effect.

It's not better to buff things to become meta. Constant power creep in all directions just results in less control and too much passively happening e.g. how many of the output boons and conditions are deliberately applied at deliberate times? There are very few, and the spam and power creep of strips and cleanses means you're not choosing to strip or cleanse as a reaction to specific boons or conditions but just using them when there are conditions (and just stacking them together with strips on the spike) meaning the power creep results in less control and increases spam and luck.

[Jski.6180]

4 minutes ago, Littlekenny.4196 said:

It's not better to buff things to become meta. Constant power creep in all directions just results in less control and too much passively happening e.g. how many of the output boons and conditions are deliberately applied at deliberate times? There are very few, and the spam and power creep of strips and cleanses means you're not choosing to strip or cleanse as a reaction to specific boons or conditions but just using them when there are conditions (and just stacking them together with strips on the spike) meaning the power creep results in less control and increases spam and luck.

As long as the "max" number power creep for hp armor healing power etc.. are not getting higher you can do horizon power creep for adding more effects to skills to bring things in the meta. Ideally you would add say alacrity to tempest shouts it is power creep but dose not make the class heal more burst or make it more tankly in a moment but it will make the class able to use its skills a bit more often as well as other near that tempest.

Or say open up the game to giving ppl more boon strips for classes whom do not have them.