Gw 2 definition of Necromancer absolute bloated mess

[DeceiverX.8361]

19 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

This is kinda besides the point, but just want to correct this tiny bit.
When it comes to discussing skill level requirements, a "low floor" means that a class is approachable and easy to do "kinda okay" with soon, without being a god at the game. A "high floor" is the opposite, you require a high degree of understanding and mechanical skill to do even okay on it. 
Elementalist is high floor, mostly, because if you don't really understand the kit, you aren't likely to do anything right. Necromancer is, in this "do at least somewhat okay" area, better off, and is fairly low floor; it's easier to do good on. This doesn't affect their ceilings.

 

There's quite a bit of controversy as to which definition is correct and it even variable regionally.  However, the "skill ceiling" term is commonly agreed upon as a metric used to identify a measure of effectiveness on a graph of performance at the highest level of play.

Ergo its counterpart the floor, from a strictly logical perspective, should logically define effectiveness of performance on its lowest levels of play (new players, button-mashing tactics, etc.).

The other commonly-held definition you describe is not measuring the same metrics but rather is trying to define the baseline required skill to be "effective;" (which is an arbitrary measure on its own and cannot be tracked), which is simply best-described as "difficulty."

 

[The Boz.2038]

If you bring two low skill level players up against each other on two different classes, one is a low skill floor class, the other a high skill floor class, the guy on the low skill floor class will have a distinct advantage. Yes?

[Carnage.6751]

On 3/27/2022 at 2:10 AM, Telgum.6071 said:

I don't pretend to mock you but this is such a noob take. In PvP surviving is above everything else, the more time you are alive (and your enemy dead), the more time you have to work towards objectives and nodes while your enemy is dead. This "fight on point" mentality is ok when you are starting in PvP, but you have to let it go.

You don't have to aim for "getting in the circle against all odds to prevent the enemy from scoring points". If the enemy is rooted in the nodes then their positioning is 0, you can cast on them easily because you know they won't move from the point, therefore taking most of your damage. So you kill them and then while they are dead, you capture the node. It doesn't matter if they arrive before you fully capture it because they are not scoring as result of you being there and your enemy being dead. That's why most thieves won't fully capture the enemy node, and instead will just reset it.

You talking about survivability when Necros kit basely design for that.Shroud,Lifesteal hell even when they are downed they have lifesteal.

[Carnage.6751]

On 3/28/2022 at 11:23 PM, Methuselah.4376 said:

Actually in ESO there's no class that is one role or the other; it's a game that allows any class to be any role. Some excel at certain roles more than others but even those that don't can still do that role perfectly well enough to get through the hardest content. Necromancer in ESO is a special class in that it happens to do all three roles (DPS, Tank, Healer) VERY well (separately ofc). However, in ESO classes (as far as PvE are concerned at least) are super well balanced, with the weakest never being very far behind the strongest, and the meta constantly changes as well. 

Staying on topic, I sincerely believe that ESO gets Necromancer right. The only other game that I found other than ESO that got necro right was Diablo 3. 

Exactly Necromancer in Eso was def a good design for each role.They were covering themselves with bones for defence.They had defence buffs not Second lifebar.They were sacrificing  hp for healing and they had good condi for damage.İn here  necromancers absolute looks like directionless mess.

[Telgum.6071]

11 hours ago, Carnage.6751 said:

You talking about survivability when Necros kit basely design for that.Shroud,Lifesteal hell even when they are downed they have lifesteal.

Necro is far from being the best survivalist they have extremely limited mobility (unless Harbinger, in which case no second HP bar) and if they don't use staff, they can't do nothing against ranged classes like Ranger or DH.

[Kulvar.1239]

On 3/26/2022 at 10:02 PM, Xelqypla.6817 said:

Elder Scrolls Online Necromancer is a tank.

 

DDO Pale Master is a tank.

 

I have always hated the idea that Necromancers were a pet class. If Pyromancers/ Fire Mages just summoned living fire pets, there would be riots.

I love playing blood/shadow mages but hate pets.
I like that GW2 necro pets are optionals. (unlike WoW warlock pet)

[Carnage.6751]

On 3/29/2022 at 12:33 AM, XECOR.2814 said:

l2p issue. You dont have idea what you are talking about because you are not on top of things 

What an intelligent respond man.Just talk for talk.Yeah ım gonna stun them and burst them but if they get out from that immediatelly shroud.I think you dont have any idea what are you talking about.Classic "git gud" and l2p trolls. :d

[Carnage.6751]

On 3/27/2022 at 2:44 AM, Daddy.8125 said:

Necromancer doesn't have everything .. 

Necromancer has condi, power, barrier and quickness on builds that don't overlap dramatically. 

Guardians have access to alot more then necromancer. Mechanist has more in a singular build ironically. 

Necromancer has hated. Because of its sustain in PvP which remained stupidly high compared to other options after the Feb 2020 patch. 

However since EoD launch tbh fighting them feels now pretty ok. They've lost alot of sustain with those nerfs. 

And no I'm not a necro main. Or defending it prior EoDs nerfs it was dumb levels of strong. 

And they are the most stronger utilities for being strong in PVP.You saying I got entire market but I didn't get that the grape left in the shelve.I'm a mesmer main and when I only have petty clones to lay on.(And Virtuoso absolute downgrade to mesmer)And Necromancers here raid boss."Guys pile on them" bc you can't 1 v 1 againts necromancers.While other players in enemy team go freely peel you.Who can defend this shroud?Oh I have second life bar what you can do about that?I have lifesteal  unlike you don't have poison have fun.Btw I respect your opinion.When I wrote this I knew someone wiill come and say "Come on guys,its not that bad" .Every post have this :D 

[Puck.3697]

2 hours ago, Carnage.6751 said:

And they are the most stronger utilities for being strong in PVP.You saying I got entire market but I didn't get that the grape left in the shelve.I'm a mesmer main and when I only have petty clones to lay on.(And Virtuoso absolute downgrade to mesmer)And Necromancers here raid boss."Guys pile on them" bc you can't 1 v 1 againts necromancers.While other players in enemy team go freely peel you.Who can defend this shroud?Oh I have second life bar what you can do about that?I have lifesteal  unlike you don't have poison have fun.Btw I respect your opinion.When I wrote this I knew someone wiill come and say "Come on guys,its not that bad" .Every post have this 😄

I dont play necromancer 🙂 I play Mesmer and Elementalist to begin with ^^, i recently did delve abit into bladesworn but missed them too much.

Necromancer as i said, prior its Nerfs its sustain was too mental, it had so much utility which kept making it breathe Life force in realistically which created a Situation where they were close to immortal without Some serious team focus to drive into the floor, even then it wasnt easy and it can cost a teamfight trying to do so even if u succeeded.

Necromancer however took heavy nerfs to passive sustain. its Utility that was commonly used in SPVP Was nerfed and its Life force generation was nerfed, Harbinger is Extremely bad in SPVP and Reaper has very few redeeming qualities left realistically after its nerf.

I generally will stomp a Necro 1v1 now with both my Mesmer and Elementalist. they just dont have the sustain to duel me anymore and if they're silly enough to try use Harb, i'll just Block their attacks til tthey over stack their blight and i can one shot them, i find them to be food now and if anything i'd say Necromancer has Fallen ALOT in SPVP since the sustain nerfs. they have Less Damage now, they have less Sustain, no active sustain to replace the gaps at all, Staff got nerfed, their runes got nerfed, they generate it far slower and their DR Got nerfed.

One of the reasons i cannot play necro is simple lack of Active sustain.

I hate the concept of Defensive and Offensive being rolled into one, I.E Mirage / Daredevil / Vindicator Dodges and Necromancers Shroud.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

On 3/26/2022 at 10:11 PM, Dadnir.5038 said:

After all it got no invuln, no block, no evade skill, low stability... etc.

Yep, because those require timing. Necromancer facerolling while facetanking everything was to satisfy the casual player power fantasy.

[Dadnir.5038]

6 hours ago, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

Yep, because those require timing. Necromancer facerolling while facetanking everything was to satisfy the casual player power fantasy.

Sure, just keep in mind that not having those make it vulnerable to big hits, condi application and hard control. Evade, block and invuln negate an infinite amount of damage over their duration, while a bunch of HP negate a finite amount of damage. Block, evade and aegis still negate both CC and condi.

The core necromancer wasn't released with tools that gave him health every seconds without the need to actually hit a foe while some professions have access to regen without the need to hit a foe and even passive regeneration effects sometime cumulating to close to 1k hp/s.

There is a definite trade off, a weakness, there that hit those "casual players with a power fantasy".

[Axl.8924]

7 hours ago, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

Yep, because those require timing. Necromancer facerolling while facetanking everything was to satisfy the casual player power fantasy.

Personally i don't have a issue with necros in pve. Now pvp and wvw are another story. having 2-3 necros at a time does show that ANET is kinda trapped and ele is kinda stuck. but i think thats more a issue with necro counters being nerfed out of existence.

[Dadnir.5038]

38 minutes ago, Axl.8924 said:

but i think thats more a issue with necro counters being nerfed out of existence.

It's not. The issue is that the necromancer is the main counter to boons and have no true competition in the area.

The main powercreep added to the game since HoT have been the exponential boon output for all professions. It made the necromancer and it's boon corruption increasingly more important in competitive modes. It's to the point that the meta can't live without a necromancer and the more, the merrier.

Let's be realist, be it mesmer, revenant, spellbreaker or Untamed, none have the ability to compete against the necromancer in boon hate. That is the reason you have many necromancer in competitive modes. It's not a matter of being easy, faceroll or whatever, it's just a matter of boons overflowing and necromancer ripping and corrupting them without even realising it.

 

[jalmari.3906]

GW2 necromancer is derived from GW1 necromancer, sort of. Like most of other original classes in original GW2.

 

So there was orignally basically like 3 main builds with several variations:

Condition damage semi-tanky build (damage over time)

Direct damage glass cannon

Minion master, somewhat tanky (minions do damage)

 

Until HoT everything was somewhat okay. When PoF came everything went just crazy with all uber specializations.

 

Necro gameplay was totally screwed with scourges that basically killed everything in ranked. They screwed even other necro builds so bad it was not even funny. You just pressed random buttons and people died even if you didn't know what buttons did. I know because I went testing few times and just smashed buttons, in ranked.

 

I have not played for a while but I can imagine scourge train is still going on in pvp. I wish they never made that spec. Kind of same goes for some other totally overkill specs in pvp.

 

Without scourge cheese necromancer was sort of balanced afaik do not know how it is nowadays.

 

 

[Dadnir.5038]

8 hours ago, jalmari.3906 said:

I have not played for a while but I can imagine scourge train is still going on in pvp.

Scourge is but a shade of what it used to be in sPvP. And in WvW it's a water downed shade of what it used to be. I believe the spec is no longer a concern to anyone in PvP.

[Aeolus.3615]

On 3/26/2022 at 9:36 PM, Dadnir.5038 said:

Most modern mmo broaden the build pool of their professions and tune down heavily the possibility of having an army of minions.

In this regard, even gw2 necromancer have much more minions than most of it's concurents as you can have up to 10+ minions at the same time on reaper for example.

But I do agree with you as the necromancer archetype is often tanky in a lot of mmo that I've played as well (with minion or not). The only game were I've seen necromancer as glassy is GW1 with it's life sacrifice gameplay, deliberatly chosing to reduce it's maximum health to the maximum in order to sacrifice less raw hp (mean it's easier to heal back) due to the %age cost of the abilities.

on Gw1 we had initially no limits on minions :)  but minions had health degen and heal them would sacrifice necro health, sometimes necros would self one shot when mass healing 25 to 27 minions :} (wich was fixed later the amount of possible minions to avoid these situations).

Imo if there is something that need something between a QoL or a reword on necro would be minions.

Minions on gw1 were far better than in gw2 since they are very usefull even if u have a full range minion build u will kill players like u have a ranger as pet  lol...  fun video of gw1 builds:  

 

 

 

Edited April 22, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[frareanselm.1925]

Well, Anet didnt gave necro's everything. They are very slow, lack mobility, zero stealth, evades, invulnerability and blocks. 

[Aeolus.3615]

8 hours ago, frareanselm.1925 said:

Well, Anet didnt gave necro's everything. They are very slow, lack mobility, zero stealth, evades, invulnerability and blocks. 

They give everything to everyone not caring about consequences nor measuring the outcomes of what they do,  when every class can perma alls boons and conditions with a simple rotation or 2 skills what will they add?

perma invunerability, sooon! > :)

Edited April 22, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[Aeolus.3615]

On 4/22/2022 at 11:04 AM, frareanselm.1925 said:

Well, Anet didnt gave necro's everything. They are very slow, lack mobility, zero stealth, evades, invulnerability and blocks. 

"Double life bars" and life siphon(life force) was suposed to be why necros cant excell at those.

 

(Fail Edit post) double post of shame  Ç_Ç

Edited April 24, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[Sansar.1302]

Necromancer is the most op class in gw2 and needs a nerf

[Gladiotor.7561]

Its too easy to play. I understand OP. Whenever i play necro i feel like i abuse the game or something. They really need a reality check. 

And yes i feel the same (or even worse) about guardians.

[Puck.3697]

On 4/28/2022 at 7:36 AM, Gladiotor.7561 said:

Its too easy to play. I understand OP. Whenever i play necro i feel like i abuse the game or something. They really need a reality check. 

And yes i feel the same (or even worse) about guardians.

This is a major issue. 

When you drive a proffession to pressing a singular ability to passively drive all its damage and defense it loses alot of skill cap. 

It barely has any sorta rotations for any of elites 

I mean over half of what a optimal reaper does is auto attack. 

Necromancer is excruciatingly easy to play and due to that rewards heavily compared to more complicated proffessions that a silver / gold player cannot utilise properly. 

Guardian I wouldn't really put quite in the same boat, I mean there is argument for bias towards it given its always meta and always desired. 

But that isn't because it's easy to play as a necro. That's because it's always been given everything. 

Most players suck at willbender in pvp even in its OP state, and not many could utilise DH properly in pve content either.. although willbender feels quite alike necros in pve sadly due to the fact again it barely utilises weapon swap and just presses the same 5 buttons in the same order. 

[Dadnir.5038]

1 hour ago, Daddy.8125 said:

I mean over half of what a optimal reaper does is auto attack.

Apart from, maybe, scepter, the necromancer's weapons weren't designed to be the main focus of it's rotation.

The counter part is that the necromancer's utilities weren't focused especially on utility or defense but mainly on offensive mean contrary to other professions. To be fair, the devs could remove the necromancer's ability to swap weapon and it wouldn't change much for the necromancer, that's how bad it's weapon are.

The necromancer's design isn't like the elementalist's design where you need to rotate through 4 elements (with powerful skills in each element) to reach maximum efficiency. He isn't designed to be effective both in and out of shroud, he is designed be effective in shroud and bid his time when he is out of shroud. Since shroud have 5 skills, that limit a lot the range of option the necromancer have.

 

[Puck.3697]

12 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Apart from, maybe, scepter, the necromancer's weapons weren't designed to be the main focus of it's rotation.

The counter part is that the necromancer's utilities weren't focused especially on utility or defense but mainly on offensive mean contrary to other professions. To be fair, the devs could remove the necromancer's ability to swap weapon and it wouldn't change much for the necromancer, that's how bad it's weapon are.

The necromancer's design isn't like the elementalist's design where you need to rotate through 4 elements (with powerful skills in each element) to reach maximum efficiency. He isn't designed to be effective both in and out of shroud, he is designed be effective in shroud and bid his time when he is out of shroud. Since shroud have 5 skills, that limit a lot the range of option the necromancer have.

 

While i agree

i feel its quite a boring premise to really stand upon, tbh necromancer isnt alone in this. If we look at the new shiney Spectre. its cohesion with its weapons are so terrible in PvE Rotation you use none of the offhand abilities and only use specifically 3 and auto attacks outside of shroud.

but i dont think its healthy for gameplay to have things function in this matter imho, while no it was never focused upon and Utilities werent primarily used as Defensives. now we're seeing the proffession get less given to it through shroud and the mechanic being nerfed maybe its time to change this perception. as we see from harbinger, Harbinger actually is Far more active in its Rotation.

If we break down why Reaper only auto attacks in Shroud its Because it Spam stacks Self Might. you get quickness for just being in shroud and its attacks chunk down its Life force faster. Maybe its time to encourage More of the Reapers Shroud abilities to be used comparitively to now

Reapers greatsword in PvE imho does have a fair bit of Active gameplay to it realistically.. its Primarily the Shroud we focus on when we're talking about it going out the window. As effectively the Primary goal is to uphold Life force to allow u to upkeep Might on urself, through auto attacks + Apply a level of Quickness to yourself, and the Damage the Reapers shroud Does through other abilities arent strong enough to really bridge the gap and make it worthwhile to use.

Scourge, atleast doesnt just auto attack... it does use abilities in a Priority list and ofcourse keeping uptime on shades is important. but yeah i think when a Shroud is Entirely used for a auto attack i feel its Just massively wasted.

[Dadnir.5038]

1 hour ago, Daddy.8125 said:

If we break down why Reaper only auto attacks in Shroud its Because it Spam stacks Self Might.

Well, I'm a long time advocate of getting rid of the "shrd#1" traits that the necromancer have. I have been asking for them to be changed to something else even before HoT. It's not healthy to stack this many traits effect onto an auto attack. But few share my opinion on this subject.

1 hour ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Reapers greatsword in PvE imho does have a fair bit of Active gameplay to it realistically..

It's my personal opinion but reaper GS feel horrible to use. Worse feeling being gravedigger. This weapon is so slow, I just can't stand it.

 

1 hour ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Scourge, atleast doesnt just auto attack...

Objectively, a scourge could. But it's true for every single spec of every single profession.