Please increase sources of Elemental Empowerment, even benchmarks struggle to keep up 10 stacks.

[SeTect.5918]

14 minutes ago, Sena.2761 said:

I do agree that the idea of having a constant 20% boost to all your stats does sound very powerful. That's why I picked it as a Grandmaster over Boon Duration or near constant Stability-but it isn't like that, it's more of 10% boost to all stats sometimes and a 20% for like a second or so. Not exactly as impressive as it first reads.

 

Exactly. 

Tho as catalyst, its also not very powerful. I mean sure it sounds powerful but with this trait, the benchmark is at 39k (slightly above average) and the sustain isnt great on ele either so the toughness and vitality boost are totally fine. Especially since catalyst has no other sustain traits built into the dps build. (Like holo, Daredevil, weaver, tempest, reaper, untamed and almost everything else.)

Also I dont get what people are saying with "it shouldn't be perma but it gives a powerful boost if you have all 10 stacks". Thats wrong. If you have all stacks, dps with full boons is 39k. So thats somewhat average so where is this powerful boost? 

This just means that if u dont have all stacks, its a massive dps loss. No powerful dps boost if you have all stacks, just massive dps loss if you dont have all stacks. Thats what it does atm. 

Edited March 30, 2022 by SeTect.5918

[Sena.2761]

1 hour ago, SeTect.5918 said:

Exactly. 

Tho as catalyst, its also not very powerful. I mean sure it sounds powerful but with this trait, the benchmark is at 39k (slightly above average) and the sustain isnt great on ele either so the toughness and vitality boost are totally fine. Especially since catalyst has no other sustain traits built into the dps build. (Like holo, Daredevil, weaver, tempest, reaper, untamed and almost everything else.)

Also I dont get what people are saying with "it shouldn't be perma but it gives a powerful boost if you have all 10 stacks". Thats wrong. If you have all stacks, dps with full boons is 39k. So thats somewhat average so where is this powerful boost? 

This just means that if u dont have all stacks, its a massive dps loss. No powerful dps boost if you have all stacks, just massive dps loss if you dont have all stacks. Thats what it does atm. 

Yeah, the benefits of it do feel like an illusion considering the damage of the class is balanced around it-making it kind of moot.

 

Willbender doesn't have to play absurd mini-games to hit a 40k condi bench AND they get to utilize Whirl Finishers while being superior at sticking to a target and still having the freedom to take SYG to be, ya know, helpful. But because it's an Ele spec, it has to be overdesigned, with several cumbersome gimmicks, very little to no modern team utility and an extremely cautious design. It's everything I disliked about Weaver but more badly thought out, and because it'll get the most attention it'll also be the defacto Ele playstyle due to sheer numerical advantage.

 

Remember back in 2014 when to trigger our traits all Tempest asked us to do was....use it's gimmick? I miss those simpler days of Ele design.

Edited March 30, 2022 by Sena.2761

[Nephalem.8921]

1 hour ago, Sena.2761 said:

Yeah, the benefits of it do feel like an illusion consider the damage of the class is balanced around it-making it kind of moot.

 

Willbender doesn't have to play absurd mini-games to hit a 40k condi bench AND they get to utilize Whirl Finishers while being superior at sticking to a target and still having the freedom to take SYG to be, ya know, helpful. But because it's an Ele spec, it has to be overdesigned, with several cumbersome gimmicks, very little to no modern team utility and an extremely cautious design. It's everything I disliked about Weaver but somehow worse, and because it'll get the most attention it'll also be the defacto Ele playstyle due to sheer numerical advantage.

 

Remember back in 2014 when to trigger our traits all Tempest asked us to do was....use it's gimmick? I miss those simpler days of Ele design.

But willbender is a guardian spec. dont be ridiculous. 

[Serephen.3420]

On 3/30/2022 at 8:43 PM, gooddrakkarboi.4870 said:

Or we just remove the boring and uninspired stat stick and aura traits and give Catalyst an identity... 

Yeah...honestly I've been starting to lean more towards completely changing those traits😅

Edited March 31, 2022 by Serephen.3420
typo

[HotDelirium.7984]

There are many ways to optimize this Empowerment trait for many different play styles. The last trait line could be changed to just doubling the effects of your stacks so that its worthwhile no matter what build you have. In order to get to the max stats I have to change my entire playstyle to maximize gaining 10 stacks. No catalyst utility skills disable or immobilize and only 3 of 20 hammer skills contribute. Dodging is also unreliable because attack windows and distances are incredibly hard to perceive. Gaining an aura from hammer skills is unreliable as well as the cooldown for the jade orb making us wait around for one. We can't always wait around for the jade orb.

[Conncept.7638]

No.

Base Elementalist is already the most complicated class, lets add management of an entirely new resource bar, four weapon passives, one to three trait passives, and a gyro-like pseudo-pet (because that worked great last time).

I'm glad they took the time to make it functional, especially so quickly after launch, but the Catalyst is overdesigned nonsense that has too much going on and cuts not are an option, they are an absolute necessity, and elemental empowerment would probably be the best thing to cut, just roll 60-70% of that damage in base and call it good.

 

Edited March 31, 2022 by Conncept.7638

[Avatara.1042]

59 minutes ago, Conncept.7638 said:

No.

Base Elementalist is already the most complicated class, lets add management of an entirely new resource bar, four weapon passives, one to three trait passives, and a gyro-like pseudo-pet (because that worked great last time).

I'm glad they took the time to make it functional, especially so quickly after launch, but the Catalyst is overdesigned nonsense that has too much going on and cuts not are an option, they are an absolute necessity, and elemental empowerment would probably be the best thing to cut, just roll 60-70% of that damage in base and call it good.

 

It gives more than damage.

[Conncept.7638]

42 minutes ago, Avatara.1042 said:

It gives more than damage.

Then hand that back out in any of the three empty trait slots we have, just don't make it another inane stacking passive we have to juggle.

EDIT: Scratch that, FIVE empty trait slots, good grief what were the developers thinking when they made this thing?

Edited March 31, 2022 by Conncept.7638

[Satome.9560]

I noticed this since the release of EoD that how am i suppose to maintain max stacks with these traits and I really tried the 2-2-2 build but it always fluctuates at 7-9 stacks so my conclusion is that this 2 grandmaster trait is a trap trait. Even Roul(Snowcrows can't maintain max stacks for long, only a couple of seconds), making the trait kinda pointless to me. 

 

IMO if you gonna play Catalyst, play either aura traits or boon support traits bc even after nerfs we still pulse a lot of good boons at perma while not losing out that much dps. 

 

But let's hope anet changes the middle trait because right now it's kinda a trap trait for 2 grandmaster. 

[Demented Lemur.7861]

May I ask if you have seen the post buff video that the same person did a day ago. The video you linked was from two weeks ago

 

 

Edited March 31, 2022 by Demented Lemur.7861
Clarification

[SeTect.5918]

26 minutes ago, Demented Lemur.7861 said:

May I ask if you have seen the post buff video that the same person did a day ago. The video you linked was from two weeks ago

 

 

Well this topic is about the Access to "Elemental Empowerment".
There was nothing about Elemental Empowerment (except "Empowered Empowerment", which has nothing to do with the access of Elemental Empowerment) in the 29th march patch. This means: This benchmark and build still has the same issues.
It goes from 10 stacks to 5-9 stacks on:

• 0:18-0:20
• 0:26
• 0:34-0:37
• 0:39-0:41
• 0:42-0:45
• 0:51-0:54
• 1:00-1:01
• 1:06-1:10
• 1:13-1:15
• 1:16-1:18
• 1:25-1:27
• 1:34-1:36
• 1:40-1:41
• 1:41-1:43

Benchmark Done on 1:44

So as you can see, even benchmarks cant hold it on 10 stacks properly, not even close to properly.
And this isnt even a real encounter where you have to dodge. And its with perma alac and quickness.

So just the dps is higher, there is no change to the access to Elemental Empowerment.

Edited March 31, 2022 by SeTect.5918

[Ace.1784]

On 3/29/2022 at 11:31 PM, Sunshine.5014 said:

You can burn all your skills to get 10 stacks. Nobody argues that. What people talked about is how do you keep up that 10 stacks after you burn all your #5 skills?

I do not think the intention was to permanently upkeep 10 stacks but otherwise you can bring other finishers in the form of utility traits if you  want to keep going.

On 3/30/2022 at 12:08 AM, Sena.2761 said:

Scepter/Focus Air has zero finishers, unless I wanna blow my 30s CD CC if I picked the trait, and then I'm stuck in Air.

The thread was talking about benchmark videos, so I must have missed the S/F benchmark. Could you link it?

On 3/30/2022 at 1:26 AM, SeTect.5918 said:

You didnt think about any cooldowns. Earth 5 has a 30 sec CD while EE lasts for 15 seconds. Air 5 has 25 sec CD. Air 4 is useless (reduces ur dps by a lot bc u whoop urself to the moon). 

Fire 5 also has 25 sec CD.

Its not possible to keep up 10 stacks if you dont have perma quick and alac. 

Did you watch any catalyst benchmark? Even these struggle to keep it up on 10 stacks perma. - And in benchmarks you dont have to dodge, move around and so on. You just cant keep up 10 stacks in a real fight properly, even if you have perma quickness and alacrity. 

I didn't forget. The discussion was on attunements not having finishers and I just mentioned that you didn't need every finisher to reach 10. 

I do follow Roul's content and I am an avid Catalyst player; however, like my first post in this thread states, I do not think the intention was to maintain 10 stacks at all times.

[SeTect.5918]

16 minutes ago, Vinteros Asteano.1209 said:

I do not think the intention was to permanently upkeep 10 stacks but otherwise you can bring other finishers in the form of utility traits if you  want to keep going.

The thread was talking about benchmark videos, so I must have missed the S/F benchmark. Could you link it?

I didn't forget. The discussion was on attunements not having finishers and I just mentioned that you didn't need every finisher to reach 10. 

I do follow Roul's content and I am an avid Catalyst player; however, like my first post in this thread states, I do not think the intention was to maintain 10 stacks at all times.

So...the Intention is to go from 100% crit chance down to 85-89% all the time? And the Intention was to make that skill fully useless if you are solo?

Tbh i dont think so. 

It makes u 100% useless while not having both alac and quickness. 

If the Intention is to not have it perma, they should change their Intention.

They also seem to balance the e spec around having it perma because it does average dps in benchmark. However the only thing it does atm is: reducing your dps by far if you dont have it perma. 

[Sena.2761]

4 hours ago, Vinteros Asteano.1209 said:

The thread was talking about benchmark videos, so I must have missed the S/F benchmark. Could you link it?

With respect, this feels in bad faith. While this thread was, yes, talking about a benchmark video it only did so to point out how difficult it is to maintain 10 stacks even under fantasy, ideal circumstances. The implication behind showing it being, "Look at how futile this is even under perfect conditions." It was not, in fact, about the benchmark video as a whole but used it to help shore up OP's argument, which is that EE is difficult to keep up 10 stacks with "even in a benchmark".

 

But, I'm sure you know this and are simply trying to dismiss an opinion that disagrees with your's.

 

So if Hammer struggles to utilize this fully-so do other Ele sets, even the ones seemingly well-equipped to really make the most of it.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I'm not even running it.  I've had limited experience with it, but I've managed to maintain 10 stacks of Empowered Empoweringment of Empowered Empower for... sub 1% of my time.  I just keep Sphere Specialist equipped, because double boon time on my sphere does far more regardless of the build or role that I run.  

[The Boz.2038]

Elemental Empowerment needs to go back to the drawing board. And it's such a fundamental shift, that basically the entire trait line of the Catalyst needs to be redesigned. Will make larger post on it.

[Ace.1784]

23 hours ago, SeTect.5918 said:

So...the Intention is to go from 100% crit chance down to 85-89% all the time? And the Intention was to make that skill fully useless if you are solo?

Tbh i dont think so. 

It makes u 100% useless while not having both alac and quickness. 

If the Intention is to not have it perma, they should change their Intention.

They also seem to balance the e spec around having it perma because it does average dps in benchmark. However the only thing it does atm is: reducing your dps by far if you dont have it perma. 

I think all of this is fair. I've made this statement before, but it seems the intent was to have a period of time where the self buffs are a catalyst to a particular action. If you look at certain scenarios with the full stacks of boons and the self buffs, it's ridiculous.

 

19 hours ago, Sena.2761 said:

With respect, this feels in bad faith. While this thread was, yes, talking about a benchmark video it only did so to point out how difficult it is to maintain 10 stacks even under fantasy, ideal circumstances. The implication behind showing it being, "Look at how futile this is even under perfect conditions." It was not, in fact, about the benchmark video as a whole but used it to help shore up OP's argument, which is that EE is difficult to keep up 10 stacks with "even in a benchmark".

 

But, I'm sure you know this and are simply trying to dismiss an opinion that disagrees with your's.

 

So if Hammer struggles to utilize this fully-so do other Ele sets, even the ones seemingly well-equipped to really make the most of it.

It's not bad faith. Most of the discussion I was following was hammer-centric, so the Sc/F part confused me.

If you do know of a Sc/F build, I would like to check it out. I know there's a staff build that performs much better than other staff variants on Ele.

Edited April 1, 2022 by Vinteros Asteano.1209
Changed Scepter abbreviation from S to Sc

[gooddrakkarboi.4870]

So let me get this straight: Catalyst gets a grandmaster trait that also needs some other traits to function properly and even then it's not granted for 100% of the time, more like 70%. So the grandmaster trait, the last big choice in your build, is useless for a third of the time? Sounds like classic Ele design: Do more for the same reward as other classes get passively... 

[Stallic.2397]

5 hours ago, gooddrakkarboi.4870 said:

So let me get this straight: Catalyst gets a grandmaster trait that also needs some other traits to function properly and even then it's not granted for 100% of the time, more like 70%. So the grandmaster trait, the last big choice in your build, is useless for a third of the time? Sounds like classic Ele design: Do more for the same reward as other classes get passively... 

 

Yup, yup and yup. 

 

And people think Anet likes ele... 

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

I still don't think the issue is the lack of sources, but just the grandmaster trait itself.
The limit of 10 stacks is here to avoid abuses like tempest+3-4 catalysts not to be maintain indefinitely; but the developper in charge had not properly read the design specifications when coding the last grandmaster trait.

 

Something like "EE effectiveness +50%" or "EE duration +5sec"  with no threshold would be healthier and won't oblige full traits and weapons or only reward top players with tempest only in pve.

Edited April 2, 2022 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[SeTect.5918]

10 hours ago, gooddrakkarboi.4870 said:

So let me get this straight: Catalyst gets a grandmaster trait that also needs some other traits to function properly and even then it's not granted for 100% of the time, more like 70%. So the grandmaster trait, the last big choice in your build, is useless for a third of the time? Sounds like classic Ele design: Do more for the same reward as other classes get passively... 

This.

And if you dont have alac or quickness, its 10-20% of time. This makes the sphere trait far more useful than Empowered Empowerment if you are solo. 

Edited April 2, 2022 by SeTect.5918

[Dadnir.5038]

On 3/31/2022 at 9:55 PM, SeTect.5918 said:

So as you can see, even benchmarks cant hold it on 10 stacks properly, not even close to properly.
And this isnt even a real encounter where you have to dodge. And its with perma alac and quickness.

I'll be the devil's advocate and say it:

The devs don't want your character to be a solo hero. The idea is most likely that you need your Tempest/ele aura share besty to help you keep up those stacks.

Now, I know it's a frustrating concept but, let's be realist, it's most likely the intent behind the fact that it's difficult to keep up.

[Xaylin.1860]

11 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I'll be the devil's advocate and say it:

This.

 

Don't get me wrong... Catalyst traits are very boring and alongside with Virtuoso and Harbinger probably the most uninspired and one dimensional ones this time around. However, the stat buff is so huge that it most likely isn't supposed to be maintaned without help. They clearly made the top tier traits more suitable for solo scenarios considering their effect actually refreshes.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Give alacrity to Tempest, then it'll be ok.

[Nephalem.8921]

1 hour ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I'll be the devil's advocate and say it:

The devs don't want your character to be a solo hero. The idea is most likely that you need your Tempest/ele aura share besty to help you keep up those stacks.

Now, I know it's a frustrating concept but, let's be realist, it's most likely the intent behind the fact that it's difficult to keep up.

Designing the gm effect around an allied support tempest? i know the devs do questionable things but they are not this bad.